Quote from: oggsmash on July 16, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
   As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever.   They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.

SJGames and Steve Jackson have always been liberal. The last few years they have been turning more and more woke:

QuoteJune 5, 2020: Racism And Bigotry Have No Place Anywhere
We are appalled by the murder of George Floyd and the countless other atrocities that have led to the current protests. We have donated - cash, not games - to charities in Austin:

Austin Area Urban League
Austin Justice Coalition
Project ROAR
400+1 Bail Fund
If you can, please help your local organizations standing against injustice and racism. And vote.

#blacklivesmatter

- Steve Jackson

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_05_2020/Racism_And_Bigotry_Have_No_Place_Anywhere

Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.

Old-school D&D though, roll up a character and jump right in to the game.
YMMV, IMHO and all that.

Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 16, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
   As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever.   They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.

SJGames and Steve Jackson have always been liberal. The last few years they have been turning more and more woke:

QuoteJune 5, 2020: Racism And Bigotry Have No Place Anywhere
We are appalled by the murder of George Floyd and the countless other atrocities that have led to the current protests. We have donated - cash, not games - to charities in Austin:

Austin Area Urban League
Austin Justice Coalition
Project ROAR
400+1 Bail Fund
If you can, please help your local organizations standing against injustice and racism. And vote.

#blacklivesmatter

- Steve Jackson

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_05_2020/Racism_And_Bigotry_Have_No_Place_Anywhere

Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.

Old-school D&D though, roll up a character and jump right in to the game.
YMMV, IMHO and all that.

Greetings!

Wow, Melichor! GURPS supports BLM then? GURPS can burn in the fire, my friend. THEY CAN BURN!

That's so disgusting to learn that they, too, have gulped down the Kool-Aid!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 16, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
   As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever.   They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.

SJGames and Steve Jackson have always been liberal. The last few years they have been turning more and more woke:

QuoteJune 5, 2020: Racism And Bigotry Have No Place Anywhere
We are appalled by the murder of George Floyd and the countless other atrocities that have led to the current protests. We have donated - cash, not games - to charities in Austin:

Austin Area Urban League
Austin Justice Coalition
Project ROAR
400+1 Bail Fund
If you can, please help your local organizations standing against injustice and racism. And vote.

#blacklivesmatter

- Steve Jackson

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_05_2020/Racism_And_Bigotry_Have_No_Place_Anywhere

Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.

Old-school D&D though, roll up a character and jump right in to the game.
YMMV, IMHO and all that.

Regarding the cost in effort for starting up a new game, there are some nifty automated random chargen tools out there with filters for genre, power level and etc. (although they're for 3rd edition, so some conversion may be necessary), as well as the newest Kickstarter by Douglas Cole which funded successfully (I've been provided my PDFs already): "Delvers to Grow," which is basically a set of interchangeable blocks for each sort of "class" or archetype, then modified by upgrades and other lens-type features. It lets you toss together a character at 3 different point levels extremely quickly, one that's built on ~70 some points, one in the middle, and one that's basically a full-blown Dungeon Fantasy character.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily help with the rules overhead for a newbie. But that's not insurmountable if you are genuinely interested in running/learning something; it didn't stop me, after all. 

EDIT: Character creation seems to cause the most heartache with newbies anyway. It's not necessarily the rules for play that present the barrier, but the daunting task of character generation and confronting a veritable encyclopedia of skills, traits, little mechanical details tucked away in the descriptions, do I buy up DX or IQ etc.

Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
...

One very important part of resource management is having an encumbrance system that matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeGe7L5zCkU

If one uses an encumbrance system that takes into account bulk along with weight - the average fantasy PC is not carrying much more than his weapons and armor when heading in to a dungeon or fight without, overly weighing themselves down...

A good encumbrance system should force HARD choices on PC's for what they are carrying.

One thing is universal - Players HATE encumbrance penalties. No matter how mild.

And a party can only move as fast as its slowest member.

So adopt or create an encumbrance system that doesn't handwave what PC's can carry around and that will go along way to making resource management a thing even for low fantasy gaming.

SJGames + BLM = Jaeger has a new dead horse to beat without mercy...

But I'll save all that for threads that are overtly about RPG politics in the OP.

Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.

Yes. GUPRS not-so-lite is what I call it. Fewer options, but you still get to divide by decimal places...

Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.

Total agreement. The underlying math of the system is solid. They could have made something that had comparable to slightly less complexity, yet meaningful PC customization that set itself up as a viable option for those wanting to try a more grounded fantasy game than 5e.

But they didn't.

GURPS is going the way of HERO, and now Shadowrun. The people in charge of those systems can't see the forest for the trees...

Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 16, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
   As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever.   They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.

SJGames and Steve Jackson have always been liberal. The last few years they have been turning more and more woke:

QuoteJune 5, 2020: Racism And Bigotry Have No Place Anywhere
We are appalled by the murder of George Floyd and the countless other atrocities that have led to the current protests. We have donated - cash, not games - to charities in Austin:

Austin Area Urban League
Austin Justice Coalition
Project ROAR
400+1 Bail Fund
If you can, please help your local organizations standing against injustice and racism. And vote.

#blacklivesmatter

- Steve Jackson

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_05_2020/Racism_And_Bigotry_Have_No_Place_Anywhere

Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.

Old-school D&D though, roll up a character and jump right in to the game.
YMMV, IMHO and all that.

  By today's standards, and what they actually put in GURPS, that is politically agnostic for the most part.  Liberal I do not care, be liberal.  Tell me how to think...well...  They can donate as they please IMO, and to be honest, EVERYONE was pretty pissed a week after Floyd died.  More info comes out, and saint george maybe was a bit more tarnished and the circumstances not so clear.  So if all we have is a post right after Floyd died, I can give a pass.  Not that it matters, I dont think there is anything else for me to buy from them.  I assume the default for game developers to be liberal.  I have no issue with liberal, start politicizing your game....well...

Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2021, 12:58:12 AM
They can donate as they please IMO ...

SJ can give as much money as he wants to BLM and the like. It just won't be my money.

Quote from: Zalman on July 17, 2021, 09:54:28 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2021, 12:58:12 AM
They can donate as they please IMO ...

SJ can give as much money as he wants to BLM and the like. It just won't be my money.

I agree.  I was just pointing out he donated to a few local organizations (not BLM) and he did so less than a week after the knee on neck.  I would also say, he likely did use some of my money, as I have pretty much every 4th edition product he printed in hardback, but it has been years since I bought from em.  I am also going to say, boomers being fooled by great sounding ideas is not exactly new.

Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.

Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength

It's pretty easy to translate resource management into any game.

You have to simply adhere to basic fundamentals: Starvation and Thirst rules. It's not your job to manage it for your players - it's your job to enforce the reality of the world their characters are playing in. The greater fidelity to this principle, the more your players will have to stay on their toes. In my experience this tends to foster immersion. You need to modulate this to the tastes of your players and your desires as the GM.

Enforce all environmental rules. Establish basic survival needs: give them penalties for not taking proper precautions for their PC's comfort. Narratively reward players that do. The others will psychologically fall in line. Happens ALL THE TIME in my games.

Just describing how my players, after adventuring in the woods for a couple of weeks, look and smell when they come back to civilization - the dull hunger of living off of hard-tack and murky water, or maybe they scavenged roots, and small game? I hit them with the smell of roasting pig wafting from the local tavern. Part of the fun is the psychological feeling of getting refreshed.

In the field - it's the same thing: slogging through a filthy swamp. When they want to clean up - there is a reason you can find soap on the list. Or mention small knicks and tears in their clothing and weaponry - whetstones, needle and thread come in handy.

In other other words the more detail in your descriptions of play based on environmental factors, the more your players will be cued to realize what their PC's must be going through in their minds. You can prompt them with NPC's that open up their packs and do things correctly - while you describe how the miserable conditions the PC's suddenly find themselves in for not having bedroll on their character sheet, or a tarp to stay out of the rain. Have them covered with leeches when wading through a bog. MAKE them respect the need for the attention to details.

Yes - track those arrows. Track their food, water. Track their sleeping conditions. Track their clothing vs. the temperature. Slogging around in Plate Armor while it's 90+ degrees and high-humidity is a recipe for disaster. Time for Con-checks baby! Oh take that armor off? Great time for a goblin-attack. etc. etc.

The goal being is adding detail to make the game harder but fun. Don't forget to reward them accordingly.

Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.

Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength

Both low-fantasy games I use (LFG and Crypts & Things) include a luck mechanic. Your luck is a pool of points spent on saving throws and lots of other stuff. Both the starting amount and recover rate can be house-ruled. While recovering 1 point per hour of rest works for dungeon crawling, my current game uses 1 point recovered for a full day of rest. This works better for wilderness exploration.

Sacrificing a helmet, shield, or weapon to absorb one hit is another mechanic I have used. Make the combat lethal enough (it should be if you call it low fantasy) and those sacrifices become mandatory, not just something for the boss fight. When enemies make a critical hit, that can ruin their armor as well.

Rolling 1 on d20 attack is a fumble: often a broken weapon. Players don't carry more than two weapons and a dagger because good encumbrance rules mean they can't. I allow my players 10 to 12 items. Their armor counts as one, as does their shield and every weapon and tool. Every individual torch is a slot. Players dump a few items at the entrance to a dungeon so they have some slots for loot. Even so, before the end, even after breaking and sacrificing some of their gear, they find themselves having to drop good loot so they can pick up better loot.

Hirelings and animals are needed to carry more but those are limited resources that go away quickly, too.

I know I have it dialed-in correctly when players emerge from a ten-room crypt with half their armor, a d6 back-up weapon and a few pieces of great loot. Getting it back to the city without losing it to bandits or beastmen in that depleted state is as tough challenge as the crypt itself.