I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.

Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength

If you're running a game "closer to the ground" so to speak, one way to include resource management is to introduce the players to the fun of poverty! If you're the kind to need to be out adventuring (an inherently risky business with bad margins and a shitty benefit package) then you're likely to be in dire straits. Poor conditions like that mean that players likely don't have the finances to be well stocked, well fe, and well rested at most times.

Just play Old School Essentials.  It is baked into the game.

Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.

Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength

  I dont know if Sword and Sorcery counts as low fantasy, but Most characters have a few disadvantages and personalities that mean "resting" is getting shitfaced drunk at the local tavern/inn/brothel.  They do enter upon most adventures fully rested for the most part, as well as the first few combats.   However, the nature of many of their adventures (raiding a Snake cult lair to kidnap the noble cultist daughter of the local Baron) mean they do not get any rests or any of real note once they start the real action.  So their resources managed come down to arrows, unbroken shields, and how much blood they have in their bodies (magical healing is extremely rare).   

   In situations that might be closer to a dungeon crawl (finding and exploring a buried Greenstone city to find some relic/item they are being paid to recover) they know going in that someone getting seriously hurt is going to slow them down by weeks should they be forced to recover on site, and often again, once the action starts, the world is alive around them.  The cultists/devolved men/serpent men are not going to just sit around wondering where the attack came from.   They are going to go out and hunt/patrol/set traps.   

   So I find less entering of fights fully rested and equipped, and a whole lot more planning ambushes/attacking by surprise/scouting to see what they are getting into.  They have a member of their group (Cimmerian Barbarian) who has a few personality 'flaws' that cause him to charge forward Leeroy Jenkins style once blood starts to flow, so this prevents too many static plans that stay intact once a fight begins.   

   The nature of the system (GURPS) and the world (rare magic and very little magic healing) means a fight could mean you lose an arm/hand/foot even when you roll over a gang of enemies (halberds remove limbs often in one shot) makes many encounters challenging on their own.  Once the action is rolling in many scenarios, it gets more so as the party expends resources (fatigue and Hit Points, and often hirelings and ammo) and there is usually little to no respite until they have completed their objectives or are forced to retreat (and often fail). 

Quote from: Batjon on July 14, 2021, 04:03:27 AM
Just play Old School Essentials.  It is baked into the game.

How so? I have ose tome here somewhere waiting for a hard copy to restock.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 14, 2021, 07:41:44 AM

Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.

Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength

  I dont know if Sword and Sorcery counts as low fantasy, but Most characters have a few disadvantages and personalities that mean "resting" is getting shitfaced drunk at the local tavern/inn/brothel.  They do enter upon most adventures fully rested for the most part, as well as the first few combats.   However, the nature of many of their adventures (raiding a Snake cult lair to kidnap the noble cultist daughter of the local Baron) mean they do not get any rests or any of real note once they start the real action.  So their resources managed come down to arrows, unbroken shields, and how much blood they have in their bodies (magical healing is extremely rare).   

   In situations that might be closer to a dungeon crawl (finding and exploring a buried Greenstone city to find some relic/item they are being paid to recover) they know going in that someone getting seriously hurt is going to slow them down by weeks should they be forced to recover on site, and often again, once the action starts, the world is alive around them.  The cultists/devolved men/serpent men are not going to just sit around wondering where the attack came from.   They are going to go out and hunt/patrol/set traps.   

   So I find less entering of fights fully rested and equipped, and a whole lot more planning ambushes/attacking by surprise/scouting to see what they are getting into.  They have a member of their group (Cimmerian Barbarian) who has a few personality 'flaws' that cause him to charge forward Leeroy Jenkins style once blood starts to flow, so this prevents too many static plans that stay intact once a fight begins.   

   The nature of the system (GURPS) and the world (rare magic and very little magic healing) means a fight could mean you lose an arm/hand/foot even when you roll over a gang of enemies (halberds remove limbs often in one shot) makes many encounters challenging on their own.  Once the action is rolling in many scenarios, it gets more so as the party expends resources (fatigue and Hit Points, and often hirelings and ammo) and there is usually little to no respite until they have completed their objectives or are forced to retreat (and often fail). 

Can't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short.  Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.

Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.

Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength

When playing a game where there might only be one fight, you make that fight into the Boss fight.

Many games might also use the same resources for non-combat challenges as combat challenges. One example would be Mage the Ascension. Characters may use their magick (spending quintessence and risking paradox) and other meta-currency (willpower) to look for information, by research or in social encounters which mean that they might not be fully loaded when facing the main bad guy despite not having had a single combat encounter beforehand.

Quote from: Wntrlnd on July 14, 2021, 11:20:09 AM

Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.

Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength

I loved mage before they went full crazy

When playing a game where there might only be one fight, you make that fight into the Boss fight.

Many games might also use the same resources for non-combat challenges as combat challenges. One example would be Mage the Ascension. Characters may use their magick (spending quintessence and risking paradox) and other meta-currency (willpower) to look for information, by research or in social encounters which mean that they might not be fully loaded when facing the main bad guy despite not having had a single combat encounter beforehand.

Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AM

Quote from: Batjon on July 14, 2021, 04:03:27 AM
Just play Old School Essentials.  It is baked into the game.

How so? I have ose tome here somewhere waiting for a hard copy to restock.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 14, 2021, 07:41:44 AM

Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.

Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength

  I dont know if Sword and Sorcery counts as low fantasy, but Most characters have a few disadvantages and personalities that mean "resting" is getting shitfaced drunk at the local tavern/inn/brothel.  They do enter upon most adventures fully rested for the most part, as well as the first few combats.   However, the nature of many of their adventures (raiding a Snake cult lair to kidnap the noble cultist daughter of the local Baron) mean they do not get any rests or any of real note once they start the real action.  So their resources managed come down to arrows, unbroken shields, and how much blood they have in their bodies (magical healing is extremely rare).   

   In situations that might be closer to a dungeon crawl (finding and exploring a buried Greenstone city to find some relic/item they are being paid to recover) they know going in that someone getting seriously hurt is going to slow them down by weeks should they be forced to recover on site, and often again, once the action starts, the world is alive around them.  The cultists/devolved men/serpent men are not going to just sit around wondering where the attack came from.   They are going to go out and hunt/patrol/set traps.   

   So I find less entering of fights fully rested and equipped, and a whole lot more planning ambushes/attacking by surprise/scouting to see what they are getting into.  They have a member of their group (Cimmerian Barbarian) who has a few personality 'flaws' that cause him to charge forward Leeroy Jenkins style once blood starts to flow, so this prevents too many static plans that stay intact once a fight begins.   

   The nature of the system (GURPS) and the world (rare magic and very little magic healing) means a fight could mean you lose an arm/hand/foot even when you roll over a gang of enemies (halberds remove limbs often in one shot) makes many encounters challenging on their own.  Once the action is rolling in many scenarios, it gets more so as the party expends resources (fatigue and Hit Points, and often hirelings and ammo) and there is usually little to no respite until they have completed their objectives or are forced to retreat (and often fail). 

Can't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short.  Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.

  I agree about the 1s rounds.  I for the most part follow that pretty loosely, and depending on the character actions, pretend those 1s are 5s.  I do use Savage Worlds for Sword and Sorcery as well, we toss in the gritty rules and people think twice about fighting as an only response.    I think if you want to try GURPS, just download Gurps Lite, and get the Conan Gurps book (it is being printed on demand at amazon for 29.95 now) and just use a base template for the players and their characters( I use the GURPS fantasy book for these, but the internet is rife with base templates) (for Sword and Sorcery we use 150 pt characters with 75 points of disads...S&S characters are flawed and some of the points they get should be to remove flaws IMO).

  I think Lion and Dragon can do Sword and Sorcery very easily, I think Mythras can (or low fantasy if you want more mud than blood up front) SW does pulp better IMO than gritty, but with gritty rules, it is pretty gritty.  So I dont think the system is as important as the tone (once you decide to start fighting, no assurances as to when the fighting stops)

Being at full strength for each fight may not be a challenge if the low fantasy game also incorporates slow level/power advancement and not a lot of or no healing magic.  Likewise if it takes a while to heal naturally, that might be a game where the characters are not always at full strength before each fight.

Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short.  Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.

Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages.  IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME!  EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!"  And it really ISN'T complex.  Want to do something?  Then you roll 3d6.  If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good.  If it isn't, you're probably not good.

(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead.  The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)

But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon?  A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management.  Any exploration scenario does the same.  Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.

Quote from: Ravenswing on July 15, 2021, 06:17:23 AM

Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short.  Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.

Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages.  IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME!  EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!"  And it really ISN'T complex.  Want to do something?  Then you roll 3d6.  If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good.  If it isn't, you're probably not good.

(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead.  The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)

But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon?  A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management.  Any exploration scenario does the same.  Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.

  Yeah I think character creating and cracking open those two books (campaigns and characters) just shuts a bunch of people's brains right off.  Combined with no fixed setting with art and lore to suck a reader in,  pushing the lite version of the rules is some thing SJ should focus on 24/7.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2021, 02:45:16 PM

Quote from: Ravenswing on July 15, 2021, 06:17:23 AM

Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short.  Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.

Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages.  IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME!  EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!"  And it really ISN'T complex.  Want to do something?  Then you roll 3d6.  If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good.  If it isn't, you're probably not good.

(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead.  The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)

But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon?  A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management.  Any exploration scenario does the same.  Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.

  Yeah I think character creating and cracking open those two books (campaigns and characters) just shuts a bunch of people's brains right off.  Combined with no fixed setting with art and lore to suck a reader in,  pushing the lite version of the rules is some thing SJ should focus on 24/7.

So have to ask, how woke is SJ games and will I regret giving them cash

How come everyone is fresh for every battle? It wouldn't be the case in a war or even in a day of jousting. Maybe not even in an arena.

(I'm genuinely curious about what the game is about. If it's something like game of thrones, characters have multiple campaigns, adventures in faraway lands, travels, etc. I run a GoT campaign a while ago. As long as you don't recover all HP overnight, you should be fine.)

But anyway, some resources that don't require dungeon or exploration:
- Allies.
- Cash.
- Retainers.
- Armor, horses, castles and squires cost money to maintain.

Quote from: Ocule on July 16, 2021, 09:51:26 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2021, 02:45:16 PM

Quote from: Ravenswing on July 15, 2021, 06:17:23 AM

Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short.  Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.

Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages.  IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME!  EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!"  And it really ISN'T complex.  Want to do something?  Then you roll 3d6.  If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good.  If it isn't, you're probably not good.

(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead.  The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)

But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon?  A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management.  Any exploration scenario does the same.  Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.

  Yeah I think character creating and cracking open those two books (campaigns and characters) just shuts a bunch of people's brains right off.  Combined with no fixed setting with art and lore to suck a reader in,  pushing the lite version of the rules is some thing SJ should focus on 24/7.

So have to ask, how woke is SJ games and will I regret giving them cash

SJG is highly apolitical. Generally speaking, they just want to make games and don't even remark about this type of shit at all. Recently they were pressured by the far-left lynch mob reactionaries to cut ties with Frog God Games, whom they had partnered with for (IIRC) a Fantasy Trip adventure (or series of adventures); SJG came back and basically said "well sorry, no, we're not cancelling our arrangement" (which they of course caught flak for as the danger-hair, flavor-of-the month effigy for signalling to death: "oooh nooo I can't believe it! ... Not that I even play GURPS or TFT, but *now* I *definitely* won't! Consider this a lost customer, Steve!"  ).

Quote from: Ocule on July 16, 2021, 09:51:26 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2021, 02:45:16 PM

Quote from: Ravenswing on July 15, 2021, 06:17:23 AM

Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short.  Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.

Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages.  IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME!  EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!"  And it really ISN'T complex.  Want to do something?  Then you roll 3d6.  If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good.  If it isn't, you're probably not good.

(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead.  The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)

But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon?  A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management.  Any exploration scenario does the same.  Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.

  Yeah I think character creating and cracking open those two books (campaigns and characters) just shuts a bunch of people's brains right off.  Combined with no fixed setting with art and lore to suck a reader in,  pushing the lite version of the rules is some thing SJ should focus on 24/7.

So have to ask, how woke is SJ games and will I regret giving them cash

   As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever.   They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.