I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength
If you're running a game "closer to the ground" so to speak, one way to include resource management is to introduce the players to the fun of poverty! If you're the kind to need to be out adventuring (an inherently risky business with bad margins and a shitty benefit package) then you're likely to be in dire straits. Poor conditions like that mean that players likely don't have the finances to be well stocked, well fe, and well rested at most times.
Just play Old School Essentials. It is baked into the game.
Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength
I dont know if Sword and Sorcery counts as low fantasy, but Most characters have a few disadvantages and personalities that mean "resting" is getting shitfaced drunk at the local tavern/inn/brothel. They do enter upon most adventures fully rested for the most part, as well as the first few combats. However, the nature of many of their adventures (raiding a Snake cult lair to kidnap the noble cultist daughter of the local Baron) mean they do not get any rests or any of real note once they start the real action. So their resources managed come down to arrows, unbroken shields, and how much blood they have in their bodies (magical healing is extremely rare).
In situations that might be closer to a dungeon crawl (finding and exploring a buried Greenstone city to find some relic/item they are being paid to recover) they know going in that someone getting seriously hurt is going to slow them down by weeks should they be forced to recover on site, and often again, once the action starts, the world is alive around them. The cultists/devolved men/serpent men are not going to just sit around wondering where the attack came from. They are going to go out and hunt/patrol/set traps.
So I find less entering of fights fully rested and equipped, and a whole lot more planning ambushes/attacking by surprise/scouting to see what they are getting into. They have a member of their group (Cimmerian Barbarian) who has a few personality 'flaws' that cause him to charge forward Leeroy Jenkins style once blood starts to flow, so this prevents too many static plans that stay intact once a fight begins.
The nature of the system (GURPS) and the world (rare magic and very little magic healing) means a fight could mean you lose an arm/hand/foot even when you roll over a gang of enemies (halberds remove limbs often in one shot) makes many encounters challenging on their own. Once the action is rolling in many scenarios, it gets more so as the party expends resources (fatigue and Hit Points, and often hirelings and ammo) and there is usually little to no respite until they have completed their objectives or are forced to retreat (and often fail).
Quote from: Batjon on July 14, 2021, 04:03:27 AM
Just play Old School Essentials. It is baked into the game.
How so? I have ose tome here somewhere waiting for a hard copy to restock.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 14, 2021, 07:41:44 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength
I dont know if Sword and Sorcery counts as low fantasy, but Most characters have a few disadvantages and personalities that mean "resting" is getting shitfaced drunk at the local tavern/inn/brothel. They do enter upon most adventures fully rested for the most part, as well as the first few combats. However, the nature of many of their adventures (raiding a Snake cult lair to kidnap the noble cultist daughter of the local Baron) mean they do not get any rests or any of real note once they start the real action. So their resources managed come down to arrows, unbroken shields, and how much blood they have in their bodies (magical healing is extremely rare).
In situations that might be closer to a dungeon crawl (finding and exploring a buried Greenstone city to find some relic/item they are being paid to recover) they know going in that someone getting seriously hurt is going to slow them down by weeks should they be forced to recover on site, and often again, once the action starts, the world is alive around them. The cultists/devolved men/serpent men are not going to just sit around wondering where the attack came from. They are going to go out and hunt/patrol/set traps.
So I find less entering of fights fully rested and equipped, and a whole lot more planning ambushes/attacking by surprise/scouting to see what they are getting into. They have a member of their group (Cimmerian Barbarian) who has a few personality 'flaws' that cause him to charge forward Leeroy Jenkins style once blood starts to flow, so this prevents too many static plans that stay intact once a fight begins.
The nature of the system (GURPS) and the world (rare magic and very little magic healing) means a fight could mean you lose an arm/hand/foot even when you roll over a gang of enemies (halberds remove limbs often in one shot) makes many encounters challenging on their own. Once the action is rolling in many scenarios, it gets more so as the party expends resources (fatigue and Hit Points, and often hirelings and ammo) and there is usually little to no respite until they have completed their objectives or are forced to retreat (and often fail).
Can't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short. Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.
Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength
When playing a game where there might only be one fight, you make that fight into the Boss fight.
Many games might also use the same resources for non-combat challenges as combat challenges. One example would be Mage the Ascension. Characters may use their magick (spending quintessence and risking paradox) and other meta-currency (willpower) to look for information, by research or in social encounters which mean that they might not be fully loaded when facing the main bad guy despite not having had a single combat encounter beforehand.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on July 14, 2021, 11:20:09 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength
I loved mage before they went full crazy
When playing a game where there might only be one fight, you make that fight into the Boss fight.
Many games might also use the same resources for non-combat challenges as combat challenges. One example would be Mage the Ascension. Characters may use their magick (spending quintessence and risking paradox) and other meta-currency (willpower) to look for information, by research or in social encounters which mean that they might not be fully loaded when facing the main bad guy despite not having had a single combat encounter beforehand.
Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Batjon on July 14, 2021, 04:03:27 AM
Just play Old School Essentials. It is baked into the game.
How so? I have ose tome here somewhere waiting for a hard copy to restock.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 14, 2021, 07:41:44 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength
I dont know if Sword and Sorcery counts as low fantasy, but Most characters have a few disadvantages and personalities that mean "resting" is getting shitfaced drunk at the local tavern/inn/brothel. They do enter upon most adventures fully rested for the most part, as well as the first few combats. However, the nature of many of their adventures (raiding a Snake cult lair to kidnap the noble cultist daughter of the local Baron) mean they do not get any rests or any of real note once they start the real action. So their resources managed come down to arrows, unbroken shields, and how much blood they have in their bodies (magical healing is extremely rare).
In situations that might be closer to a dungeon crawl (finding and exploring a buried Greenstone city to find some relic/item they are being paid to recover) they know going in that someone getting seriously hurt is going to slow them down by weeks should they be forced to recover on site, and often again, once the action starts, the world is alive around them. The cultists/devolved men/serpent men are not going to just sit around wondering where the attack came from. They are going to go out and hunt/patrol/set traps.
So I find less entering of fights fully rested and equipped, and a whole lot more planning ambushes/attacking by surprise/scouting to see what they are getting into. They have a member of their group (Cimmerian Barbarian) who has a few personality 'flaws' that cause him to charge forward Leeroy Jenkins style once blood starts to flow, so this prevents too many static plans that stay intact once a fight begins.
The nature of the system (GURPS) and the world (rare magic and very little magic healing) means a fight could mean you lose an arm/hand/foot even when you roll over a gang of enemies (halberds remove limbs often in one shot) makes many encounters challenging on their own. Once the action is rolling in many scenarios, it gets more so as the party expends resources (fatigue and Hit Points, and often hirelings and ammo) and there is usually little to no respite until they have completed their objectives or are forced to retreat (and often fail).
Can't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short. Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.
I agree about the 1s rounds. I for the most part follow that pretty loosely, and depending on the character actions, pretend those 1s are 5s. I do use Savage Worlds for Sword and Sorcery as well, we toss in the gritty rules and people think twice about fighting as an only response. I think if you want to try GURPS, just download Gurps Lite, and get the Conan Gurps book (it is being printed on demand at amazon for 29.95 now) and just use a base template for the players and their characters( I use the GURPS fantasy book for these, but the internet is rife with base templates) (for Sword and Sorcery we use 150 pt characters with 75 points of disads...S&S characters are flawed and some of the points they get should be to remove flaws IMO).
I think Lion and Dragon can do Sword and Sorcery very easily, I think Mythras can (or low fantasy if you want more mud than blood up front) SW does pulp better IMO than gritty, but with gritty rules, it is pretty gritty. So I dont think the system is as important as the tone (once you decide to start fighting, no assurances as to when the fighting stops)
Being at full strength for each fight may not be a challenge if the low fantasy game also incorporates slow level/power advancement and not a lot of or no healing magic. Likewise if it takes a while to heal naturally, that might be a game where the characters are not always at full strength before each fight.
Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short. Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.
Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages. IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME! EVERYTHING ELSE IS
OPTIONAL!" And it really ISN'T complex. Want to do something? Then you roll 3d6. If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good. If it isn't, you're probably not good.
(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead. The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)
But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon? A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management. Any exploration scenario does the same. Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 15, 2021, 06:17:23 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short. Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.
Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages. IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME! EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!" And it really ISN'T complex. Want to do something? Then you roll 3d6. If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good. If it isn't, you're probably not good.
(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead. The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)
But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon? A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management. Any exploration scenario does the same. Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.
Yeah I think character creating and cracking open those two books (campaigns and characters) just shuts a bunch of people's brains right off. Combined with no fixed setting with art and lore to suck a reader in, pushing the lite version of the rules is some thing SJ should focus on 24/7.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2021, 02:45:16 PM
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 15, 2021, 06:17:23 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short. Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.
Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages. IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME! EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!" And it really ISN'T complex. Want to do something? Then you roll 3d6. If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good. If it isn't, you're probably not good.
(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead. The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)
But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon? A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management. Any exploration scenario does the same. Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.
Yeah I think character creating and cracking open those two books (campaigns and characters) just shuts a bunch of people's brains right off. Combined with no fixed setting with art and lore to suck a reader in, pushing the lite version of the rules is some thing SJ should focus on 24/7.
So have to ask, how woke is SJ games and will I regret giving them cash
How come everyone is fresh for every battle? It wouldn't be the case in a war or even in a day of jousting. Maybe not even in an arena.
(I'm genuinely curious about what the game is about. If it's something like game of thrones, characters have multiple campaigns, adventures in faraway lands, travels, etc. I run a GoT campaign a while ago. As long as you don't recover all HP overnight, you should be fine.)
But anyway, some resources that don't require dungeon or exploration:
- Allies.
- Cash.
- Retainers.
- Armor, horses, castles and squires cost money to maintain.
Quote from: Ocule on July 16, 2021, 09:51:26 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2021, 02:45:16 PM
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 15, 2021, 06:17:23 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short. Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.
Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages. IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME! EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!" And it really ISN'T complex. Want to do something? Then you roll 3d6. If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good. If it isn't, you're probably not good.
(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead. The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)
But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon? A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management. Any exploration scenario does the same. Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.
Yeah I think character creating and cracking open those two books (campaigns and characters) just shuts a bunch of people's brains right off. Combined with no fixed setting with art and lore to suck a reader in, pushing the lite version of the rules is some thing SJ should focus on 24/7.
So have to ask, how woke is SJ games and will I regret giving them cash
SJG is highly apolitical. Generally speaking, they just want to make games and don't even remark about this type of shit at all. Recently they were pressured by the far-left lynch mob reactionaries to cut ties with Frog God Games, whom they had partnered with for (IIRC) a Fantasy Trip adventure (or series of adventures); SJG came back and basically said "well sorry, no, we're not cancelling our arrangement" (which they of course caught flak for as the danger-hair, flavor-of-the month effigy for signalling to death: "oooh nooo I can't believe it! ... Not that I even play GURPS or TFT, but *now* I *definitely* won't! Consider this a lost customer, Steve!" ::) ).
Quote from: Ocule on July 16, 2021, 09:51:26 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2021, 02:45:16 PM
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 15, 2021, 06:17:23 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 14, 2021, 10:59:01 AMCan't ever get my players to use gurps. They're intimidated by its complexity, for me my only complaint is 1s turn interval feels too short. Savage worlds has been handling that for the swingyness of the system.
Yep, that's when you slap a copy of GURPS Lite on the table: 32 pages. IMHO, the worst mistake SJ Games made from BSIII forward was not putting it at the beginning of the book, with giant honking red letters saying "THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO PLAY THE GAME! EVERYTHING ELSE IS OPTIONAL!" And it really ISN'T complex. Want to do something? Then you roll 3d6. If it's under that number on your sheet, you're good. If it isn't, you're probably not good.
(And as far as 1 second combat rounds go, I've a longstanding fix for that: declare that they're all three seconds instead. The fiat works just fine for GURPS.)
But going back to the OP, surely you don't think that the only way to constrain resources is to stick people in a dungeon? A trek through inhospitable wilderness drains a party, and requires resource management. Any exploration scenario does the same. Even with magic, if you're doing low fantasy, the magic's finite: if you're relying on spells for heat, food and fresh water, that means fewer spells to zap enemies.
Yeah I think character creating and cracking open those two books (campaigns and characters) just shuts a bunch of people's brains right off. Combined with no fixed setting with art and lore to suck a reader in, pushing the lite version of the rules is some thing SJ should focus on 24/7.
So have to ask, how woke is SJ games and will I regret giving them cash
As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever. They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 16, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever. They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.
SJGames and Steve Jackson have always been liberal. The last few years they have been turning more and more woke:
QuoteJune 5, 2020: Racism And Bigotry Have No Place Anywhere
We are appalled by the murder of George Floyd and the countless other atrocities that have led to the current protests. We have donated - cash, not games - to charities in Austin:
Austin Area Urban League
Austin Justice Coalition
Project ROAR
400+1 Bail Fund
If you can, please help your local organizations standing against injustice and racism. And vote.
#blacklivesmatter
- Steve Jackson
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_05_2020/Racism_And_Bigotry_Have_No_Place_Anywhere
Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.
Old-school D&D though, roll up a character and jump right in to the game.
YMMV, IMHO and all that.
Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 16, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever. They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.
SJGames and Steve Jackson have always been liberal. The last few years they have been turning more and more woke:
QuoteJune 5, 2020: Racism And Bigotry Have No Place Anywhere
We are appalled by the murder of George Floyd and the countless other atrocities that have led to the current protests. We have donated - cash, not games - to charities in Austin:
Austin Area Urban League
Austin Justice Coalition
Project ROAR
400+1 Bail Fund
If you can, please help your local organizations standing against injustice and racism. And vote.
#blacklivesmatter
- Steve Jackson
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_05_2020/Racism_And_Bigotry_Have_No_Place_Anywhere
Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.
Old-school D&D though, roll up a character and jump right in to the game.
YMMV, IMHO and all that.
Greetings!
Wow, Melichor! GURPS supports BLM then? GURPS can burn in the fire, my friend. THEY CAN BURN!
That's so disgusting to learn that they, too, have gulped down the Kool-Aid!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 16, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever. They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.
SJGames and Steve Jackson have always been liberal. The last few years they have been turning more and more woke:
QuoteJune 5, 2020: Racism And Bigotry Have No Place Anywhere
We are appalled by the murder of George Floyd and the countless other atrocities that have led to the current protests. We have donated - cash, not games - to charities in Austin:
Austin Area Urban League
Austin Justice Coalition
Project ROAR
400+1 Bail Fund
If you can, please help your local organizations standing against injustice and racism. And vote.
#blacklivesmatter
- Steve Jackson
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_05_2020/Racism_And_Bigotry_Have_No_Place_Anywhere
Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.
Old-school D&D though, roll up a character and jump right in to the game.
YMMV, IMHO and all that.
Regarding the cost in effort for starting up a new game, there are some nifty automated random chargen tools out there with filters for genre, power level and etc. (although they're for 3rd edition, so some conversion may be necessary), as well as the newest Kickstarter by Douglas Cole which funded successfully (I've been provided my PDFs already): "Delvers to Grow," which is basically a set of interchangeable blocks for each sort of "class" or archetype, then modified by upgrades and other lens-type features. It lets you toss together a character at 3 different point levels extremely quickly, one that's built on ~70 some points, one in the middle, and one that's basically a full-blown Dungeon Fantasy character.
Of course, that doesn't necessarily help with the rules overhead for a newbie. But that's not insurmountable if you are genuinely interested in running/learning something; it didn't stop me, after all. :P
EDIT: Character creation seems to cause the most heartache with newbies anyway. It's not necessarily the rules for play that present the barrier, but the daunting task of character generation and confronting a veritable encyclopedia of skills, traits, little mechanical details tucked away in the descriptions, do I buy up DX or IQ etc.
Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
...
One very important part of resource management is having an encumbrance system that matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeGe7L5zCkU
If one uses an encumbrance system that takes into account bulk along with weight - the average fantasy PC is not carrying much more than his weapons and armor when heading in to a dungeon or fight without, overly weighing themselves down...
A good encumbrance system should force HARD choices on PC's for what they are carrying.
One thing is universal - Players HATE encumbrance penalties. No matter how mild.
And a party can only move as fast as its slowest member.
So adopt or create an encumbrance system that doesn't handwave what PC's can carry around and that will go along way to making resource management a thing even for low fantasy gaming.
SJGames + BLM = Jaeger has a new dead horse to beat without mercy...
But I'll save all that for threads that are overtly about RPG politics in the OP.
Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
Yes. GUPRS not-so-lite is what I call it. Fewer options, but you still get to divide by decimal places...
Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.
Total agreement. The underlying math of the system is solid. They could have made something that had comparable to slightly less complexity, yet meaningful PC customization that set itself up as a viable option for those wanting to try a more grounded fantasy game than 5e.
But they didn't.
GURPS is going the way of HERO, and now Shadowrun. The people in charge of those systems can't see the forest for the trees...
Quote from: Melichor on July 16, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 16, 2021, 03:42:16 PM
As mentioned, above, I have never seen any sort of political message ever. They seem pretty thoroughly politically agnostic.
SJGames and Steve Jackson have always been liberal. The last few years they have been turning more and more woke:
QuoteJune 5, 2020: Racism And Bigotry Have No Place Anywhere
We are appalled by the murder of George Floyd and the countless other atrocities that have led to the current protests. We have donated - cash, not games - to charities in Austin:
Austin Area Urban League
Austin Justice Coalition
Project ROAR
400+1 Bail Fund
If you can, please help your local organizations standing against injustice and racism. And vote.
#blacklivesmatter
- Steve Jackson
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_05_2020/Racism_And_Bigotry_Have_No_Place_Anywhere
Back to the topic...
GURPS is just too granular for most new players and casual/semi-casual players just looking for RPG adventure.
GURPS Lite isn't much better. Fewer options to fiddle with for characters, but the underlying foundation is still very granular.
SJ Games missed a beat with Dungeon Fantasy by not streamlining the 'engine' and making a true lighter and faster GURPS Lite to run DF.
I've never had a problem getting players to try GURPS. The problem is, most don't want to work past that initial curve and just give it up.
Old-school D&D though, roll up a character and jump right in to the game.
YMMV, IMHO and all that.
By today's standards, and what they actually put in GURPS, that is politically agnostic for the most part. Liberal I do not care, be liberal. Tell me how to think...well... They can donate as they please IMO, and to be honest, EVERYONE was pretty pissed a week after Floyd died. More info comes out, and saint george maybe was a bit more tarnished and the circumstances not so clear. So if all we have is a post right after Floyd died, I can give a pass. Not that it matters, I dont think there is anything else for me to buy from them. I assume the default for game developers to be liberal. I have no issue with liberal, start politicizing your game....well...
Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2021, 12:58:12 AM
They can donate as they please IMO ...
SJ can give as much money as he wants to BLM and the like. It just won't be
my money.
Quote from: Zalman on July 17, 2021, 09:54:28 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2021, 12:58:12 AM
They can donate as they please IMO ...
SJ can give as much money as he wants to BLM and the like. It just won't be my money.
I agree. I was just pointing out he donated to a few local organizations (not BLM) and he did so less than a week after the knee on neck. I would also say, he likely did use some of my money, as I have pretty much every 4th edition product he printed in hardback, but it has been years since I bought from em. I am also going to say, boomers being fooled by great sounding ideas is not exactly new.
Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength
It's pretty easy to translate resource management into any game.
You have to simply adhere to basic fundamentals: Starvation and Thirst rules. It's not your job to manage it for your players - it's your job to enforce the reality of the world their characters are playing in. The greater fidelity to this principle, the more your players will have to stay on their toes. In my experience this tends to foster immersion. You need to modulate this to the tastes of your players and your desires as the GM.
Enforce all environmental rules. Establish basic survival needs: give them penalties for not taking proper precautions for their PC's comfort. Narratively reward players that do. The others will psychologically fall in line. Happens ALL THE TIME in my games.
Just describing how my players, after adventuring in the woods for a couple of weeks, look and smell when they come back to civilization - the dull hunger of living off of hard-tack and murky water, or maybe they scavenged roots, and small game? I hit them with the smell of roasting pig wafting from the local tavern. Part of the fun is the psychological feeling of getting refreshed.
In the field - it's the same thing: slogging through a filthy swamp. When they want to clean up - there is a reason you can find soap on the list. Or mention small knicks and tears in their clothing and weaponry - whetstones, needle and thread come in handy.
In other other words the more detail in your descriptions of play based on environmental factors, the more your players will be cued to realize what their PC's must be going through in their minds. You can prompt them with NPC's that open up their packs and do things correctly - while you describe how the miserable conditions the PC's suddenly find themselves in for not having bedroll on their character sheet, or a tarp to stay out of the rain. Have them covered with leeches when wading through a bog. MAKE them respect the need for the attention to details.
Yes - track those arrows. Track their food, water. Track their sleeping conditions. Track their clothing vs. the temperature. Slogging around in Plate Armor while it's 90+ degrees and high-humidity is a recipe for disaster. Time for Con-checks baby! Oh take that armor off? Great time for a goblin-attack. etc. etc.
The goal being is adding detail to make the game harder but fun. Don't forget to reward them accordingly.
Quote from: Ocule on July 13, 2021, 08:53:22 PM
I was just thinking the other day, after hearing about how large of a part of the game resource management How does that translate to low fantasy or historical games where there aren't large dungeons or constant combat to strain your resources. Rather players might find themselves entering most fights rested and fully loaded.
Has this been an issue for anyone or do y'all have certain houserules to make fights more challenging when a party is expected to be consistently at full strength
Both low-fantasy games I use (LFG and Crypts & Things) include a luck mechanic. Your luck is a pool of points spent on saving throws and lots of other stuff. Both the starting amount and recover rate can be house-ruled. While recovering 1 point per hour of rest works for dungeon crawling, my current game uses 1 point recovered for a full day of rest. This works better for wilderness exploration.
Sacrificing a helmet, shield, or weapon to absorb one hit is another mechanic I have used. Make the combat lethal enough (it should be if you call it low fantasy) and those sacrifices become mandatory, not just something for the boss fight. When enemies make a critical hit, that can ruin their armor as well.
Rolling 1 on d20 attack is a fumble: often a broken weapon. Players don't carry more than two weapons and a dagger because good encumbrance rules mean they can't. I allow my players 10 to 12 items. Their armor counts as one, as does their shield and every weapon and tool. Every individual torch is a slot. Players dump a few items at the entrance to a dungeon so they have some slots for loot. Even so, before the end, even after breaking and sacrificing some of their gear, they find themselves having to drop good loot so they can pick up better loot.
Hirelings and animals are needed to carry more but those are limited resources that go away quickly, too.
I know I have it dialed-in correctly when players emerge from a ten-room crypt with half their armor, a d6 back-up weapon and a few pieces of great loot. Getting it back to the city without losing it to bandits or beastmen in that depleted state is as tough challenge as the crypt itself.