Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 20, 2024, 04:35:17 PMAs someone who GMed Genesys for years, it really takes the right group of players with strong abstract thinking skills to work. It's also a bit restrictive for a GM, trying to satisfy the conditions imposed by the dice whether the situation really warrants it or not.

I agree. In the "restrictive on the GM" part, I again urge not to have the players roll unless you feel all of the various outcomes are both possible and interesting.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

Percentile system or a variant on various DM Emulators that broaden things into a three-way axis of Yes, No and neutral combos. Or add weight like Mythic does. (Though Mythic can be way wayyyy more overcomplicated than Genesys.)

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. It's just needlessly complicated by it.

...

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AMYou say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

I side with Omega on this.

The combination of symbols and different dice types makes it needlessly fiddly for what it is trying to do. (Different levels of success.)

Several people have noted that the funky-die system is straight wonky: (I have the EoE rulebook.)
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/37670/roleplaying-games/review-star-wars-force-and-destiny
https://illuminatinggames.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/star-wars-age-of-rebellion-a-deep-dive-on-dice-probabilities/

The FFG funky dice are a needless obstacle to learning the game, created by designers trying to be too clever by half...

In my opinion; you just don't need the funky dice to get more than a pass/fail result on a roll.

From my d6 starwars homebrew game:

Stat + Skill rated 1-5 each.
D6 die pools with a success on 5-6.
One of the dice is a red 'wild die' that explodes on a six, to re-roll for additional successes.

From this I can get five different "results":

Critical Failure/Fumble.
Failure.
Success, But...
Success.
Critical success.

1: 0 successes, and half of the dice are ones: You fail, and you suffer an additional setback that further hinders you in the situation.
2: 0 successes, and less than half of the dice are ones: You did not succeed at your task.
3: 1 Success - You succeed but with an additional complication, or obstacle thrown into the mix.
4: 2-4 Successes: You succeed at what you are doing.
5: 5 Successes, a 'Crit': You succeed at what you are doing, and you gain a bonus - either to your current situation, or a bonus die to your next roll as you pursue your goal.

Examples:
1: Han solo tries to hack the lock on the endor bunker. He fails and gets a setback. So not only does he fail, but additional blast doors close, making hacking the bunker doors harder.
2: Han solo tries to hack the lock on the endor bunker. He fails, wasting his turn when they should have just waited to let R2D2 take a crack at it to begin with...
3: Han solo hacks the lock on the endor bunker, and succeeds. But with only one success there is a complication: A small squad of stormtroopers rushes the door!
4: Han solo hacks the lock on the endor bunker, and succeeds. Standard success, and there are no stormtroopers rushing the door.
5: Han solo hacks the lock on the endor bunker, and Crits. Not only does the door open but he gets a bonus of some kind: +2d to his next action, an additional action, or his out-of-nowhere hacking moves inspire his party and they all get +1d to their next rolls.


And not a single funky-die needed in the process...

This can all be mapped to a d20 roll as well. It's a matter of establishing your parameters for each result.

It's just not that hard.

... as opposed to in Genesys

Any success symbols left over? Success. Extra Successes = Extra Damage/Results
Any Advantage = Spend on gear/skill abilities. Pass on to other team-mates
Any Threat = Whatever the GM thinks is appropriate? Apply Strain if you don't want to think about it.
Any Triumphs = Give automatic big mechanical bonus, or whatever you think appropriate/establish at your table.
Any Despairs = Critical issue up to the GM.

I honestly feel people are reading WAY into this in terms of difficulty.

When it comes to probability breakdown - you guys are spot on. There are BIG probability issues in longterm "high-level" play. But it's that way with most die-pool games. Likewise there are odd mathematical issues in most RPG's like d20 post 12th-lvl. The whole point of being a good GM is surfing that wave and making it work.

But I find it funny dismissing this as overly complex when it really sounds like people hate it being "gimmicky" - it IS gimmicky. But to me, the question is "does it work"?

It does. If we're talking about "Did they need to do it this way?" Of course not. And yeah I wish they didn't. But they did - and in the early game and mid-power-level zones of play, it works rather nicely. If you try to run campaigns with the depths I run my games, you'll *really* find some warts that are solvable but frankly it's not worth the effort to do so. THAT is what pisses me off about the system. You can get a good surface game experience, but when you try to do a little more depth of play: crafting custom stuff, sandbox-style like I do, it falls apart *because* the designers were totally arbitrary with how they statted stuff.

And it feels cheap, despite the high-quality physical production they put into their books. And frankly, for the cost, you're *NOT* getting anything remotely close to the scalability that you'd get running your favorite setting with your favorite system.

TL/DR - Genesys is for people that *want* to play with this dice-system. Nothing more. It works, it's got novelty if you're into that kinda thing. You have better options.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 10:22:08 AM

Quote from: BadApple on June 20, 2024, 07:07:13 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

A home brew rule I use in my D&D game is two dice, a d20 and a d8.  The d20 is used in the normal fashion and the d8 is to adjudicate secondary events.  I don't always use the d8 but I always have my players call it out.

Here's a simple example on how I use the D8:  A rogue is picking a lock in an alley off a busy street.  His primary effort is to open the lock and that is decided by the d20 but whether a passer-by happens to catch him doing it is determined by the d8. Almost always, the meaning and consequences of the d8 roll are hidden from the players.  This way the Rogue won't find out he's been spotted right away but rather four hours later when confronted by the local sheriff when he's relaxing at the tavern and thinking he got away Scott free. 

Is that d8 outcome totally random, or can the PC's choices/gear/talents impact it in some way? Also, if the outcome is hidden, how will the player know how to impact it?

The d8 is the y axis from the x axis of the primary check.  It's less impactful but a bit more wild from the perspective of the players as they don't have any conscious direct impact on the roll.

I always take the PCs into consideration when weighting the results of the secondary die and I may even wave the result altogether if the PCs played the encounter correctly or have features that make the likelihood much smaller.  I always have a copy of all the PC sheets so I can reference them before making the call.  The d8 is also used for possible good outcomes as well.  In the end, it's a representative of the luck that players have that they cannot plan for but aren't critical to the central thread of the adventure.

I don't use the D8 with every throw but I don't let the players know what ones are or are not used.  I also don't let on what kind of thing the d8 is used for.  I try to keep it balanced between possible good and bad outcomes and I keep the outcomes a bit restrained so that it doesn't throw the adventure itself out of whack but blends in and bends it a little for more fluid world reaction.

Is the magic item you just picked up charged and ready to go?  Let the d8 decide.
Did the ancient trap you step on give you enough warning for you to try and dodge?  Let the d8 decide.
Does one of your hirelings have a match in his pocket to help the party start a fire?  Let the d8 decide.

In all of these cases, the d8 is a secondary effect to a skill check.   

Quote from: Omega on June 20, 2024, 05:57:38 PMPercentile system or a variant on various DM Emulators that broaden things into a three-way axis of Yes, No and neutral combos.

Do you have an example of a game that uses this? Have you played or ran it?

Quote from: BadApple on June 20, 2024, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 10:22:08 AM

Quote from: BadApple on June 20, 2024, 07:07:13 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

A home brew rule I use in my D&D game is two dice, a d20 and a d8.  The d20 is used in the normal fashion and the d8 is to adjudicate secondary events.  I don't always use the d8 but I always have my players call it out.

Here's a simple example on how I use the D8:  A rogue is picking a lock in an alley off a busy street.  His primary effort is to open the lock and that is decided by the d20 but whether a passer-by happens to catch him doing it is determined by the d8. Almost always, the meaning and consequences of the d8 roll are hidden from the players.  This way the Rogue won't find out he's been spotted right away but rather four hours later when confronted by the local sheriff when he's relaxing at the tavern and thinking he got away Scott free. 

Is that d8 outcome totally random, or can the PC's choices/gear/talents impact it in some way? Also, if the outcome is hidden, how will the player know how to impact it?

The d8 is the y axis from the x axis of the primary check.  It's less impactful but a bit more wild from the perspective of the players as they don't have any conscious direct impact on the roll.

I always take the PCs into consideration when weighting the results of the secondary die and I may even wave the result altogether if the PCs played the encounter correctly or have features that make the likelihood much smaller.  I always have a copy of all the PC sheets so I can reference them before making the call.  The d8 is also used for possible good outcomes as well.  In the end, it's a representative of the luck that players have that they cannot plan for but aren't critical to the central thread of the adventure.

I don't use the D8 with every throw but I don't let the players know what ones are or are not used.  I also don't let on what kind of thing the d8 is used for.  I try to keep it balanced between possible good and bad outcomes and I keep the outcomes a bit restrained so that it doesn't throw the adventure itself out of whack but blends in and bends it a little for more fluid world reaction.

Is the magic item you just picked up charged and ready to go?  Let the d8 decide.
Did the ancient trap you step on give you enough warning for you to try and dodge?  Let the d8 decide.
Does one of your hirelings have a match in his pocket to help the party start a fire?  Let the d8 decide.

In all of these cases, the d8 is a secondary effect to a skill check.   

So it's basically a randomizer attached to GM Fiat, with a GM Veto option added on? Why bother with it then and not just go with full on GM Fiat? The Genesys dice system gives a real mechanic that those wanting to play the game can actually interact with as opposed to just GM mental masturbation churning out some arbitrary second axis.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 11:19:57 PMSo it's basically a randomizer attached to GM Fiat, with a GM Veto option added on? Why bother with it then and not just go with full on GM Fiat? The Genesys dice system gives a real mechanic that those wanting to play the game can actually interact with as opposed to just GM mental masturbation churning out some arbitrary second axis.

If that's the view you're arguing with then why use dice at all, ever?  In the words of Gary Gygax, who believed that GMs should do all the rolls, "DMs use the dice for the sound they make."  It's a mechanic I like and one that seems to work for my table.  Every table and every GM is different so maybe I'm a unique use case.

I don't decide on the spot when to use the d8, it's in my notes as well as what the outcomes are.  Any time I drop a scripted result, it's because my best judgement is that the current flow of the game and the player's choices have rendered it moot in some way.  Sometimes it's because they've done things that make it nearly impossible for the result to make sense and in some cases they made the outcome a dead certainty.  In most cases, I'm using modifiers that are directly from the PC's stats or as a numerical representation of preceding events and conditions.  The only time it's arbitrary in my view is when the party has done something unexpected and impactful that I didn't previously account for and I need to do my best to take it into account.

As we have gone on for three pages and a year now, I think I have a slightly more refined opinion on Genesys.

The problem with the system is that it has a bunch of useful, but taxing features which are stuck in the "always on" position because of the custom dice. If the system defaulted to being a simple Pass/ Fail with optional rules to add the other stuff, it would be a genuinely good system because it would have a smoother learning curve and could theoretically transition from being a standard dice pool to providing an interesting narrative prompt when asked, which would mean that it could bridge the gap between crunchy gameplay and narrative gameplay and be a strictly better FATE.

Alas, that isn't the game we have.

I am thankful for Genesys, though, because without it I would not have realized that having features stuck in the "Always On" position is a terrible idea. This is one of those things where the flaw is rather subtle and isn't particularly obvious until you've seen a system properly step in a turd with it.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 11:14:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 20, 2024, 05:57:38 PMPercentile system or a variant on various DM Emulators that broaden things into a three-way axis of Yes, No and neutral combos.

Do you have an example of a game that uses this? Have you played or ran it?

Lets see.
Scarlet Heroes uses a weighted d20 table emulating the Yes/No-And/But style with a d6 mofifier.

CHRGE an MUNE use a Yes/No plus a And/But/neutral axis. Sadly the designer of CHRGE passed away a few years ago it seems.

Mythic uses a weighted percentile chart and ALOT of modifyers and expanders based on the what when and where as well as a gradually increasing chance something goes not as expected.

Albedo may be one of the earliest with its little table that used a 2d6 to get 5 different possible outcomes. Mostly meant for when the DM is drawing a blank. But it has its uses outside that.

My own system uses a Yes/Neutral/No-And/Neutral/But system using a d10 or percentile. Originally using a d12.

There are others but those were the ones I could remember and dig up quick.

Quote from: Omega on June 22, 2024, 09:11:13 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 11:14:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 20, 2024, 05:57:38 PMPercentile system or a variant on various DM Emulators that broaden things into a three-way axis of Yes, No and neutral combos.

Do you have an example of a game that uses this? Have you played or ran it?

Lets see.
Scarlet Heroes uses a weighted d20 table emulating the Yes/No-And/But style with a d6 mofifier.

CHRGE an MUNE use a Yes/No plus a And/But/neutral axis. Sadly the designer of CHRGE passed away a few years ago it seems.

Mythic uses a weighted percentile chart and ALOT of modifyers and expanders based on the what when and where as well as a gradually increasing chance something goes not as expected.

Albedo may be one of the earliest with its little table that used a 2d6 to get 5 different possible outcomes. Mostly meant for when the DM is drawing a blank. But it has its uses outside that.

My own system uses a Yes/Neutral/No-And/Neutral/But system using a d10 or percentile. Originally using a d12.

There are others but those were the ones I could remember and dig up quick.

Thank you. I'll look into them.

Do you know from memory if players can modify the second axis? It's usually clear how to modify the first axis in most games, but how does, say having a higher strength modify the two axes on an athletics or melee combat roll (substitute another trait/skill/task combo if those are not appropriate for the game in question)?

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 22, 2024, 10:09:00 PMDo you know from memory if players can modify the second axis? It's usually clear how to modify the first axis in most games,

Most are more freeform and focussed on just getting an answer to whatever question was asked.

Closest to player modifyers are Mythic...

And an oddball one called Elminster's Guide to Solo Adventuring. One of my players pointed me at it recently as they know I collect DM emulators and solo systems. Its only a buck on DM's Guild so grabbed it. Its built for 5e D&D and solo play, but can handle groups. Its mostly for playing through published modules. That uses a branching system based on 3 factors. Weight for or against. Have anything that can be applied, and any applicable stats grant a + or -? And from that you derive a DC number and roll against it.