Quote from: GoOrangeNow that is an interesting explanation and analogy. I'd never really thought of it in that way before.

The whole meta-game concept of you're not playing a character in a Hack-and-Slash fantasy world, you're playing a player who's playing a character in a fantasy world just blows my mind. It's an abomination! I like it!

I think it's a load of unnecessary pseudointellectual nonsense, a made up fairy story invented by bored college students to let them pretend their engaging in some higher pursuit, because they don't want to admit to indulging in the behavior the game is designed to encourage.

Why is it we don't see this same kind of delusional yammering about Paranoia?  I don't see any Paranoia fans making up ludicrous theories to try and justify their in game behavior.  They jsut see it as how the game is played, and enjoy it.

Quote from: J ArcaneI think it's a load of unnecessary pseudointellectual nonsense, a made up fairy story to help people tell themselves something other than "People really get into the attitude of the game."

I tend to agree.  I almost went Hackmaster instead of following Wizards on their crazy new Third Edition mindtrip.  The thing that ultimately both drew me and kept me from diving into HM was the fact that I knew I would need to buy into the insanity or it wouldn't work for me.  I opted to step back from the edge of that abyss.  Some days I think that was a mistake.

Quote from: J ArcaneI think it's a load of unnecessary pseudointellectual nonsense, a made up fairy story invented by bored college students to let them pretend their engaging in some higher pursuit, because they don't want to admit to indulging in the behavior the game is designed to encourage.

Why is it we don't see this same kind of delusional yammering about Paranoia?  I don't see any Paranoia fans making up ludicrous theories to try and justify their in game behavior.  They jsut see it as how the game is played, and enjoy it.

I agree.

Hackmaster is basically a more campaign-playable version of Paranoia.  Or HOL.  Or whatever your favorite meta-joke RPG is.

I sort of agree with Pundit and others here - the biggest problem I see is that  you never saw the companies that produced Paranoia or HOL claiming that their games were anything but meant to be taken humorously (whether they worked as a "real" game or not).  Whereas, in this case, Kenzar really wants to straddle the fence and present it as a joke game on the one hand, but a completely serious game on the other.

It's like trying to pretend that Shaun of the Dead (or it's 80's cousin, Return of the Living Dead) is a real horror movie, and not a comedy (despite the fact that they effectively present the horror tropes, they are still comedies).

I also echo the question - if you take out the humor and the roots to D&D (which I don't understand, why not just use OSRIC), what does that leave you with?  Yet another generic fantasy game.

Quote from: J ArcaneI think it's a load of unnecessary pseudointellectual nonsense, a made up fairy story invented by bored college students to let them pretend their engaging in some higher pursuit, because they don't want to admit to indulging in the behavior the game is designed to encourage.

Why is it we don't see this same kind of delusional yammering about Paranoia?  I don't see any Paranoia fans making up ludicrous theories to try and justify their in game behavior.  They jsut see it as how the game is played, and enjoy it.

There's a joke there, and some people find it funny. Apparently you either don't get the joke or don't find it funny, but the delusional part is not believing that others find it funny, especially when they come right out and say it.

Quote from: GoOrangeThere's a joke there, and some people find it funny. Apparently you either don't get the joke or don't find it funny, but the delusional part is not believing that others find it funny, especially when they come right out and say it.

No, I get the joke just fine.  I jsut don't need to make up silly theories to pretend it's not what it is.

Quote from: J ArcaneI think it's a load of unnecessary pseudointellectual nonsense, a made up fairy story invented by bored college students to let them pretend their engaging in some higher pursuit, because they don't want to admit to indulging in the behavior the game is designed to encourage.

I don't think Hackmaster is a parody of AD&D.  I can achieve the same parody of play with AD&D.  Hackmaster is just amped to 11.  It's exagerated but basically AD&D.  That's why everone gets the jokes of Knights of the Dinner Table.  I don't know about the pseudo babble of being the Knights or engaging in some higher pursuit.  The joke is you don't play it any differently then AD&D.  If anything you're making fun of yourself and how you played AD&D.  Some people are pretty sensitive that the way the play is actually the punchline.  The way some people are reacting about the direction of a new edition makes me wonder if they realize that.  I can see why the folks at Kenzer don't want to walk into that mess.  

That's why I'm really hoping that the new version will encourage parody of play of 3.5.  A byzantine number of unbalanced feats, crazy prestige classes, character builds, a multitude of attacks of opportunity, all with crazy over the top dungeon punk artwork.

What Gunslinger said.

A game that's campaign-length, in which it takes you an hour to make up a character, and the modules for which can be 100+ pages long, has got to have legs beyond parody. You can't take it too seriously but you love it nonetheless.

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity...has got to have legs beyond parody.

I've run non-parody Hackmaster games. It's nothing. The parody is usually in the players themselves and certain mechanics help to induce players to act 'typical', but they're easily ignored. Other than some mechanics, all you need to do is not use the obviously retarded monsters (like Gummi-Bear Golems) and there's not a lot of those. The game can be used seriously and it's a rather deadly RPG with AD&D roots otherwise.

So yea, it's got legs beyond the parody. I usually don't dun my HM games parody-like. It gets old fast.

-=Grim=-