Quote from: RPGPunditIs the next edition of Hackmaster going to keep the idea that every rule must be officially followed exactly as written, and not going to treat that as a joke?

I bet they don't know.  It is still early days.  I hope they keep all that stuff in as well.  I think that is the "attitude" theemrys is talking about.  I mean, it's a tough call.  They are in a transition in a time where AD&D and what it stood for doesn't have the same resonance in the hobby anymore.  It's not dissimilar to the challenge facing WotC right now, where they are trying to create a new D&D when it isn't really needed.

I'm just saying that there is a time for tough, penetrating questions and there is a time when they are inappropriate because the answers aren't there yet.

Quote from: HaffrungActually, back in the day we did have a rule that the players could not read the DMG. It was a pretty easy rule to enforce, because most of our players didn't even open the PHB except to look up spells.

I had that rule back in AD&D 1.  One of my players secretly bought the DMG.  Another one finked.  We had a confrontation and I banned the DMG owning player for a month.  It was 7th grade, but I was an anal-retentive fascist and I took those rules seriously.

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, that's what I love about HM.  And apparently, that's one of the things they're throwing away in the new edition.

We dont know that for certain though. Thats just speculation. The games not suposed to come out for like what 2 more years or something like that? I would like to see the finished edition before I pass judgement. Your love for HM is way over shadowed by your scathing attack dog rhetoric against swine.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou need to increase your reading comprehension.  Sett and I are the ones DEFENDING the silliness. Its the other side that are claiming that HM should never have been silly at all, and that in fact some of the jokes in it should be taken seriously.

On rexamination you are defending. But again your rhetoric casts a dark cloud over things. You come off very angry. Perhaps you are. I would tend to partially disreguard what your saying because of your venomous tongue.

Quote from: RPGPunditAgain, reading comprehension.  We're praising the current edition, and expressing extreme concerns about a future edition where the authors have claimed they're going to get rid of: 1. the AD&D and 2. The humour, but where they refuse to answer on whether they're going to get rid of that part of the original humour which was the idea of having to obey every single rule as written.

Because if that rule isn't done as part of the parody, if it isn't funny, then the game isn't old-school at all. Its a twisted warped perception based on what someone hostile to Regular Roleplaying imagines old-school D&D must have been like or ought to be like.

RPGPundit

Arent they loosing the license for the AD&D rules? So they have to change the rules. Loosing the humor I think would be a big blow to the game. It is really part of HM.
Overall I understand what you are tring to say. But I just cant see it as a swine product. Perhaps it is because I understand the joke. That I have a sense of humor, and generally hate rules lawyers.

Quote from: walkerpI had that rule back in AD&D 1.  One of my players secretly bought the DMG.  Another one finked.  We had a confrontation and I banned the DMG owning player for a month.  It was 7th grade, but I was an anal-retentive fascist and I took those rules seriously.

At least the offender hadn't seen your copy and therefore could not know the exact parameters of the artifacts in your campaign.  

Quote from: walkerpThey are in a transition in a time where AD&D and what it stood for doesn't have the same resonance in the hobby anymore. It's not dissimilar to the challenge facing WotC right now, where they are trying to create a new D&D when it isn't really needed.

That's ingenious!  The new version of HM should be a parody on how people play 3.5 when 4.0 comes out.  I'd love to see how the Knights of the Dinner Table would deal with that.

Quote from: walkerpI bet they don't know.  It is still early days.  I hope they keep all that stuff in as well.  I think that is the "attitude" theemrys is talking about.  I mean, it's a tough call.  They are in a transition in a time where AD&D and what it stood for doesn't have the same resonance in the hobby anymore.  It's not dissimilar to the challenge facing WotC right now, where they are trying to create a new D&D when it isn't really needed.

You're joking, right?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMark, let me add that I do appreciate your willingness to answer questions here, and agree that its way more than what we would be getting from WoTC, who instead came onto places like this and lied to our faces.

However, I do wish you could clear up that one little issue you keep skirting around.
Let's try it really simply, one last time:

Is the next edition of Hackmaster going to keep the idea that every rule must be officially followed exactly as written, and not going to treat that as a joke?

That's all I'm asking, and you still haven't answered.

RPGPundit

On one hand, my urge is to say "fuck, it should be patently obvious that all that stuff was simply parody and satire, and answering your question would be along the lines of answering someone who asks if professional wrestling is real. Only an idiot would think so."

On the other hand...you do have a point. A LOT of people took those Gygaxisms as gospel, and y'know, Kenzer fueled it by refusing to "break character" and simply say, in a loud and definitive way - "DAMN GUYS, DON'T YOU GET PARODY AND SATIRE AT ALL? PLAY THE GAME THE WAY YOU WANT - ALL THAT STUFF WAS JUST US LAMPOONING SOME OF THE STUFF GYGAX SAID IN THE 1E AD&D DMG!" Then they could have started (temp?)banning message board posters who flamed anyone who talked about "unsanctioned" games. It's like Kenzer wasn't aware that people were actually taking that shit seriously. Many of the people on this thread don't get what you're on about, but I remember the flame wars over this stuff at the Kenzer boards. If I'm not mistaken, it caused a huge rift in the online message board user base.

On the third hand, there are disclaimers in the rulebooks themselves about the parody and satire. Why those get ignored is beyond me.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou're joking, right?

Not at all. The parallel isn't exact, but both companies are trying to transition a product to an uncertain future, whereas when they first made the product, the demand and creative desire was strong and organic.  Wizards is making 4e for market reasons alone in a market largely satiated.  When they made 3e, D&D was dying on the vine and gamers were desperate for something to come along and fix it.  I don't know so much about KenzerCo, but I imagine the desire to make Hackmaster grew out of a natural desire to fill the void left by AD&D2's demise.  Now they have to make a new product because their license got pulled.

Hardisson: That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, yes.  And my suspicion is that Kenzer has fallen for that trap that some people do when they start something as a joke and then keep going and going until they believe its "real".  It swept them away...

RPGPundit

Quote from: walkerpNot at all. The parallel isn't exact, but both companies are trying to transition a product to an uncertain future, whereas when they first made the product, the demand and creative desire was strong and organic.  Wizards is making 4e for market reasons alone in a market largely satiated.  When they made 3e, D&D was dying on the vine and gamers were desperate for something to come along and fix it.  I don't know so much about KenzerCo, but I imagine the desire to make Hackmaster grew out of a natural desire to fill the void left by AD&D2's demise.  Now they have to make a new product because their license got pulled.

You're truly a doofus if you think that D&D's future is anything other than certain.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou're truly a doofus if you think that D&D's future is anything other than certain.

RPGPundit

I'm sure Lorraine Williams thought the same thing circa 1993.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou're truly a doofus if you think that D&D's future is anything other than certain.

I grow so tired of trying to work around your distractions and faux-tough style.  Read and think.  Make connections.  The point is that 4e is coming at a very different time than 3e.  I am quite confident that it is generally accepted that the outcome of 4e is unknown at this point and that the challenge the designers are facing is a very different one than when WotC first took over.  This position was recently stated by Monte Cook, for instance, in this interview done at GenCon.  

To add something to the discussion, though it is aimed at those readers who are actually curious about the subject rather than just looking for ways to score points, I will underline what has been KenzerCo's driving design mantra.  They make games that they want to play.  Perhaps that is what is disingenuous, but it is their rhetoric.  So I think that in as much as ultimately, they probably prefer actually playing Hackmaster fairly straight, with the parody elements more in the background (though probably always lightly influencing the language and style of play).  And to that end, I suspect that the bulk of the development process will be on actual play mechanics, finding a combat system that works but isn't AD&D, tweaking classes, messing with magic.  All pure speculation, but again, it is early and I am very new to their world.

I'm curious about how much Aces & Eights will influence their design, especially the more grittier, realistic elements.  Very different worlds with very different play goals.

Quote from: RPGPunditMark, let me add that I do appreciate your willingness to answer questions here, and agree that its way more than what we would be getting from WoTC, who instead came onto places like this and lied to our faces.

However, I do wish you could clear up that one little issue you keep skirting around.
Let's try it really simply, one last time:

Is the next edition of Hackmaster going to keep the idea that every rule must be officially followed exactly as written, and not going to treat that as a joke?

That's all I'm asking, and you still haven't answered.

RPGPundit

Sorry - I think I got away pulled from the main topic.  

My honest answer is: I don't know.  It's still a work in progress.

HOWEVER, my personal preference is for HM5E to work in a modular fashion like Aces & Eights, where you have Basic and Advanced rules.  That way, players can add some or all of the Advanced rules once they become familiar with the Basic rules.

Even if that occurs, I'd guess that for official HM5E tournaments, you'll still have to follow ALL the Advanced rules (or ONLY the Basic rules) so everyone is on the same playing field.

Considering the success of that in Aces & Eights, I hope that'll be the final outcome, but it's not set in stone.

I'm with Pundit on one point: D&D's future is certain. Don't let a handful of internet naysayers convince you otherwise. It will succeed and continue to dominate the market without question.

Regarding Hackmaster, it strikes me as being like the Blues Brothers. When they hit the scene, no one really knew if you were supposed to laugh at them or appreciate the music.

I don't think the producers of the game really knew what you were supposed to do with the game, and vague responses given here only solidify that belief for me. The game wasn't funny enough to be just a parody, and was too different from AD&D to be a simple clone. Fortunately for Kenzer&Co., the odd combination appealed to a lot of gamers and was a reasonable success.

I think many of the weird rules (like players not being able to read the GM section) are meant to be taken 100% seriously. The fact that these rules are supposed to be enforced at conventions confirms my thinking. The interesting part is "Why?". I believe that the designers think these types of rules are funny and add to the parody and comedy value.

So yes, I believe every rule is meant to be followed as written. The joke isn't the rule itself - it's a rule and needs to be followed. The joke is that you must follow the rule, which can be rather silly at times.

No offense to Mark, but I call shenanigans on the whole "Whatever the players want to do is fine" triteness. That's one of the most hackneyed lines from a game producer you'll ever hear, on par with an athlete talking about "Giving 110%". Either you meant that part of the book to be a joke or you didn't, please don't feed us this "however you want to interpret it" tripe.

Lastly, the whole "I can't say much" speech gets tiresome. You can't win in this situation. Whatever you do say will draw the ire of some fans, so instead of clamming up and taking the easy way out, why not try openness and honesty, with real answers as to what has been talked about and what directions are being discussed. Throw in a disclaimer that everything you say is subject to change at a later date but at least say something. Just because "Wizards doesn't talk about stuff!" doesn't mean that it's a laudable act.

I always enjoy it when game publishers and writers stop by forums to answer questions and comment on their products, and this time is no exception. Still, my cup of vague replies and non-answers continuously overflows and drinking from it is really losing its taste.

I think a Basic/Advanced split would be an awesome idea.  Also, the basic rules should be a lurid pink 64 or 128 page softcover with Erol Otus art on the cover.  Pretty please?

But seriously, I've been jonesing for a basic Hackmaster book for years now.