Its the Forgites who have hijacked Hackmaster fandom, turning an entertaining parody game that also happens to be a great updated version of AD&D1e and trying to use it as "proof" that there is such a thing as a "gamist" game. Ironically, they do so by taking parts from the game which were obviously meant to be a joke making fun of some very old-fashioned conventions of the sort of things that were written in very old gamebooks that absolutely NO ONE ever took seriously.

RPGPundit

Now I am relatively new to the Hackmaster world, having gotten there by way of Aces & Eights (though I've followed the KoDT magazine for over two years now).  As I said, I own the two core books and have read about half of them thoroughly and skimmed the rest (the spells for instance).  I also troll over on the KenzerCo boards in the Hackmaster section.  Based on this limited knowledge of the Hackmaster fan base, I think you are completely off-base.  The people that I have seen playing the game seem to love it for what it is, an old school, hack and slash roleplaying game with the competition between players and GMs amped up.  And the HMA seems to be live and well with regular tournaments across North America.  I have never heard anyone in the Kenzerco world use the word "gamist".

I am sure there are a range of things that appeal to the Hackmaster player.  For me, it's the idea that you can call upon your inner geek without restraint, to min-max and munchkinize to the max.  Yet somehow it still seems to capture the feeling of participating in another world, a world of excess, power, magic and fantasy.  I don't think I'm doing a good job of putting it into words, but I feel there is a core to Hackmaster that exists above and beyond the parody elements and the AD&D rules.  I think that this is something that was there to begin with but has grown and evolved with the continued success and development of the line these last years.  I think that the solidity of Aces & Eights as a "serious" system is a testimony to this.

I do think your question, once torn free of your bizarre paranoid theories and unnecessary acrimony, is a crucial one.  How do you take that core, strip away the IP'ed rules, keep some of the parody but perhaps not so over the top (or perhaps, maybe it will still work) and make a new edition.  It's an interesting challenge.  I suspect KenzerCo is up to the task.

Yes, Pundy, what's this HM gamism BS about? How many Forge wackos have argued this how many times, exactly, and what's the reason again to take it seriously? Aren't you making a mountain of a molehill?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityYes, Pundy, what's this HM gamism BS about? How many Forge wackos have argued this how many times, exactly, and what's the reason again to take it seriously? Aren't you making a mountain of a molehill?

I'm trying to figure out if the people at Kenzer & co. are taking it seriously; and the fact that they won't acknowledge whether or not those parts of the game were part of the "Parody" or not is a worrying sign along those lines.

RPGPundit

I might interrupt here: Gamism is not what you think it is. That would be too easy. In fact, the Sick-Fetish Game is Gamism!
Go figure.

Now that the uselesness of the term has been shown, we can drop this strawman.

Quote from: SettembriniI might interrupt here: Gamism is not what you think it is. That would be too easy. In fact, the Sick-Fetish Game is Gamism!
Go figure.

Now that the uselesness of the term has been shown, we can drop this strawman.

Yeah - after all we're all just DJs. And that infamous AP controversy ? It was done at a dance that almost nodody attended and with really bad music playing.

 Hackmaster is like the Al Yankovitch/Dr. Demento  music of RPGs.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarHackmaster is like the Al Yankovitch/Dr. Demento  music of RPGs.

Nice one.

Quote from: RPGPunditI'm trying to figure out if the people at Kenzer & co. are taking it seriously; and the fact that they won't acknowledge whether or not those parts of the game were part of the "Parody" or not is a worrying sign along those lines.

They won't acknowledge it because they probably can't figure out what the fuck you're talking about.  You really sound like an insane person.  You and Sett are doing far more to perpetuate the GNS meme here than anyone else.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo what will we be left with? A game that will have the parody stuff taken out of it, the AD&D1e taken out of it; that you will try to keep the "old school feel" for nonetheless, and which may or may not decide that stuff like the "Official sanctioned Hackmaster" rules about having to obey the rules to the letter was either a joke all along or is the central feature of the game...

That means that what you'll be left with is either yet another "generic old-school fantasy game" in a market already very full of "generic old school fantasy games" (I should know, I wrote one!), or you will have a narrow-casted dead-serious "gamist" game that might appeal to the two Forgies who actually want to play such a monstrosity rather than just try to force D&D to follow this vastly unpopular concept that no self-respecting D&D player would ever actually want to play.

I don't quite get where you're coming from. Say, if someone was to keep the parody/GM vs Player aspects of HM and use, say, a slimmed down d20 mechanic like we've seen in C&C, then build back up from there, why would that not work more or less just the same as HM?

There was a quote on the Kenzer boards by David Kenzer saying that the "attitude" of Hackmaster will remain... which for many people is the core.  Sure, some of the mechanics will change somewhat, especially since they have to move a bit away from AD&D, however my bets are that the "feel" of the game will be similar and overall will be a big step forward.  In my opinion they've already improved on the "older system" and this next step will do so even more.  Given the great job they did with Aces & Eights, and their plan to put as much love/attention into their Hackmaster update, I'm not worried in the least.  Will it be everyone's cup of tea... no... but I bet it will be damn good.

All is clear, until someone brings up "clarifications" like the post above mine.
What is the ´tude of Hackmaster, if it´s not tied to AD&D?

Really ?

 Has D&D ever had player advantage coupons?

 ...oh I meant the Weird Al/DR. Demento reference affectionately. BOTH of those performers DO know their musical traditions and have some grounding and training in them - thats why their novelty songs and styles work so well  - they had a good foundation.


- Ed C.

Yep, totally. It's an apt comparison.  Weird Al's music is often as catchy and well-produced, if not more, than the stuff he's parodying.

Quote from: RPGPunditI'm trying to figure out if the people at Kenzer & co. are taking it seriously; and the fact that they won't acknowledge whether or not those parts of the game were part of the "Parody" or not is a worrying sign along those lines.

Quote from: walkerpThey won't acknowledge it because they probably can't figure out what the fuck you're talking about.

walkerp does make a good point - I can't acknowledge something I really don't understand.  I have only the vaguest notion of the whole Forge thing, and I'm also not completely sure about what a HM "gamist" is, as far as this discussion goes.  If it's gamers who play HM4E exactly as written and abide by the HM "attitude," that's fine with us.  It's also fine with us if you don't play that way.  We listen to both groups, but in the end we have to make the game that we want to make, the way we think it should be.  Yes, some people will like it, some won't, but we'll have made a game that we love, regardless.    

Which actually reminds me a bit of early Aces & Eights discussions.  How everyone thought we were crazy to spend so much time on a western game when everyone "knew" there was no market for a western game, and so on and so on.  Yet, we put our blood and sweat into it and the first print run sold out in a month - and the demand we've seen for the second run and upcoming products is still good.

Quote from: Mark PlemmonsSorry to keep beating a dead horse, but again, keep in mind that what parts of HM are "silliness" vary wildly depending on who you ask.  

Quote from: RPGPunditIf that's true, then how the hell can you say you're going to remove the "silliness" from Hackmaster? I mean, if you can't even decide what was or was not a joke...?

Oh, I know what I think is silly and what I want to remove.  I'm just saying that if you ask different players, you'll get different answers.

I think it should be obvious why I won't say much about what HM 5E is going to look like.  It's still a couple of years away, and not everything is set in stone yet.  Also, regardless of what I say, it'll make some people happy and others unhappy.  Better to wait until we have official word to announce and previews to download.  Then at least people can make their decisions based on a final product, not just speculation.  Heck, imagine asking WotC a year ago exactly what D&D 4E was going to be like.  (4E...?  What 4E...?)  

Quote from: theemrysThere was a quote on the Kenzer boards by David Kenzer saying that the "attitude" of Hackmaster will remain... which for many people is the core. Sure, some of the mechanics will change somewhat, especially since they have to move a bit away from AD&D, however my bets are that the "feel" of the game will be similar and overall will be a big step forward. In my opinion they've already improved on the "older system" and this next step will do so even more. Given the great job they did with Aces & Eights, and their plan to put as much love/attention into their Hackmaster update, I'm not worried in the least. Will it be everyone's cup of tea... no... but I bet it will be damn good.

And this quote pretty much sums up what I can say at this point - and probably should have said from the start.  

This whole thread is one giant smoke grenade.