TheRPGSite

This post on the report to the stake holders thread on the Steve Jackson Games forums got me to thinking.

Quote from: Kromm;1561847I'd beg GURPS fans to consider and remember one thing: SJ Games could have cut GURPS and its staff – or at least sent us on an unpaid holiday – to reduce the drag on Munchkin and Ogre. Instead, the company paid us to stock the e23 (http://e23.sjgames.com/) queue with new items . . . while giving us the same vacation time and bonuses as other staff, no less. Hot sellers such as Munchkin paid for that. That's because the current hold on new GURPS releases is a temporary thing, and SJ Games is committed to lifting that hold once it frees up the human resources to do so. Wait and see!

Well, SJG can bloody well consider that we can spend our money elsewhere.  If GURPS got some support it would sell better.

Which brings me to an ugly question.  Is it time for fans of GURPS (and possibly HERO) to take their money elsewhere?

Which makes me also wonder if there's potential for a fan driven, crowd sourced GURPS replacement problem.  I recognize that there's a lot of material out there but for anyone who loves the game and wants to contribute to its success SJG is like a great big wall of piss off.

So, what about it?  Is there potential to build a modular open source 3d6 engine with a realistic tactical bent that offers a compatible touch stone for personal creations without the resistance of a controlling publisher that lacks the vision or desire to go forward?

Quote from: David Johansen;647147Which brings me to an ugly question.  Is it time for fans of GURPS (and possibly HERO) to take their money elsewhere?

Which makes me also wonder if there's potential for a fan driven, crowd sourced GURPS replacement problem.

If you must, there's JAGS. See if Marco will accept people writing for his system and how far he's willing to take it. If I was him, I'd run for the hills, but you never know.

For my point, I have my 5th edition HERO books and they're not going anywhere for a while. In fact, if my players have their way, they won't even be seeing much use in the future...

JAGS is okay but I think the system would need to be a bit looser and more modular.  The whole 4d6-4 thing is a bit of a problem IMO but I like the way he structured the stats and advantages.  Either way though, Marco's a great guy.

HERO 5th?  What about 6th?  Actually that's why I mentioned HERO fans maybe having a stake in something like this too.  Admittedly, without editorial direction and focus these things tend to end in flames.

Still, let's talk core elements.

Classless and levelless of course.  3d6 success rolls, personally I think I'd go roll high rather than low but it's easy to make the flip flop an option. 3d6 stats where one point is one point (sorry HERO).  Less than 6 stats but with substats / advantages.  No supernatural powers in the core character creation rules, but all supernatural powers following a fixed design structure that is in the GM's section.  A strict, keep your stuff substructure compatible or get out, policy would be a must.  We GURPS fans love internal consistancy.  Armor absorbs damage.  I'd like something like the one second round but I think it might be possible to make it part of a longer round with a simple phased system for handling vehicles and superheroes.  I'd like to see a vehicles type system fairly early on.  Something with a little less detail but maintaining the mathematical and physics aspect of it.

Quote from: David Johansen;647154JAGS is okay but I think the system would need to be a bit looser and more modular.  The whole 4d6-4 thing is a bit of a problem IMO but I like the way he structured the stats and advantages.  Either way though, Marco's a great guy.

Those are things to take up with Marco, I don't feel as if I could speak to why he uses 4d6-4 (even if we did have that conversation in the past). And I can only wonder about what you mean by saying "looser and more modular".

Quote from: David Johansen;647154HERO 5th?  What about 6th?

6th was a horrible mistake, one driven by Long's personal ego. But that's really besides the point. HERO has basically failed at this point no matter the cause and the result is a bit of an opening for a replacement.

The only question I would have is if there is a significant market for a replacement...

Quote from: David Johansen;647154Admittedly, without editorial direction and focus these things tend to end in flames.

This is the first thing one must deal with. Such a project needs to have someone in charge, to do the core rules with a single vision- and to approve or disapprove (although the latter would carry little weight if it's a open source type of thing) latter additions by others.

That's why I suggested Marco, he's shown he's up for that level of work needed to produce a core product for what would be a rather complex system and that he's capable of doing more than retreads of other designs. I don't think many others are.

Until you have that person (or step up to be that person yourself), talking about the details isn't going to do much.

I agree that vision matters.  But I also know that my own vision isn't particularly universal or all encompassing.  Of course, with JAGS the work is already done.  That's an advantage and a disadvantage.  You get the direction and focus and a whole lot of the work done but it also removes the aspect of getting people involved and making them feel like a part of the process.

There's also the question of money of course.  Marco owns JAGS and probably would like a share of any money made.  Whereas I'm talking about a very grass roots, crowd sourced and funded project that probably goes on Drive Thru rpg and has a core that doesn't pay out to anybody.  That way individuals could write their settings and supplements, benefit from the single core and all work on the core would be controlled by a core committee.  hmmm design by committee is a bad way to do things on the whole.  Still there'd need to be an oversight committee or some other sort of peer review.

As for me stepping up, I think I'm probably a bit too much of an ass to succeed at centering this sort of thing on my own work.  I did a bunch of notes up for a GURPS replacement / repair but I was never satisfied with it.  Which is the other problem with me.  I never finish anything.

Well, there is always D6. It's like the exact opposite of GURPS in style: loose & easy to play. But it's been released as open and it's completely d6 based and multi-genre.

Good point and a good system but not a replacement for GURPS.  It would serve the desire to self publish with an existing system but if you want internal compatibility you're screwed.

Quote from: David Johansen;647147Is there potential to build a modular open source 3d6 engine with a realistic tactical bent that offers a compatible touch stone for personal creations without the resistance of a controlling publisher that lacks the vision or desire to go forward?

Write it, and people will buy and use it.

But consider whether you just want a GURPS clone (which could be written just as D&D, Traveller etc clones have been written) or something different.

Maybe it's time for that retroclone of The Fantasy Trip that occasionally gets mentioned from time to time.

Take Gurps and get rid of 80% of the skills. Maybe rename a few things. Publish it.

I would start with Mongoose Legends and iterate until you have something you like.

For example nearly everything in the system is in 5% increments. So change it to a d20 roll and +1 for every 5%. Then look at changing over to a 3d6 and so on. The virtue of this approach is that you are starting from a recognizable Open Gaming system and transforming it into another type of system. Rather than just trying to finagle some clones.

I think what important for a GURPS replace are the following point.

*It uses 3d6, roll high or roll low doesn't matter.

*It has attributes centered around 10. Uses roughly a similar scale to D&D/Runequest/etc.

*Attributes dominate the calculation of skills

*Every die roll represents a concrete action that the character is taking. In other worth if you roll to attack it actually represents a single swing of a weapon. The casting of a single spell, etc, etc.

*Characters are highly customizable.

*Combat is deadly to experienced character by the fact their hit points are relatively fixed.

I've still got my Fixing GURPS notes I posted a year or so ago.  But I didn't think there was much enthusiasm for it really.  My ideas generally get pretty far away from my starting point.  Take a look at my various cracks at a D&D redesign over the years.  Dark Passages is about as close as I could get.

I don't know.  Is GURPS like D&D?  Do people play it for the cachet of playing GURPS?

As far as publishing it goes, non-publishing it would seem to be the route I'm talking about.  The problem is creative control.  People need to have a sense of control over their own creative content if the idea is to work.  It cannot be just about me and my ideas or me and my enthusiasm and succeed.  It needs enough people saying "yes, this serves my needs, I can work with this" to form a community.  The idea of one guy putting out enough content to replace GURPS is a bit laughable.

I'd have to stop posting on-line tirades for at least a week.  :D

Quote from: David Johansen;647254I don't know.  Is GURPS like D&D?  Do people play it for the cachet of playing GURPS?

In the late 80s, the appeal of GURPS was that you can make the character you want how you want. Combined with a well-designed system with lots of tactical options that felt deadly and realistic.

D20 address the customization issue for D&D which hurt just about all RPGs that featured that as part of their design. Suddenly it wasn't an important distinction.  However GURPS good design and how each rule tied into something concrete you did as your character is still appealing but not compelling.

The best way to show how good GURPS is, is to put out concrete examples so people can just pick it up and play. A complete rulebook not toolkit, decent adventures* and settings.

Quote from: David Johansen;647254As far as publishing it goes, non-publishing it would seem to be the route I'm talking about.  The problem is creative control.  People need to have a sense of control over their own creative content if the idea is to work.  It cannot be just about me and my ideas or me and my enthusiasm and succeed.  It needs enough people saying "yes, this serves my needs, I can work with this" to form a community.  The idea of one guy putting out enough content to replace GURPS is a bit laughable.

It would have to be under a open license for that to occur. And if you want to jump start, you need to show how good it is by having adventures and settings ready.

The big problem is that with Mongoose Legends, Openquest fills the niche for a skill based, tactically detailed system based on realism RPG

*Mirror of the Fire Demon a DF adventure is pretty good and one of the better ones released by SJ games.

Anyhow, a few rough thoughts on where I'd travel with it.

1 - relatively few stats with substats that can be bought individually like advantages.  Similar to the arrangement of IQ, Per, and Will in GURPS 4e only more so.  However, the point would be that you'd only need a very small stat block for minor npcs and monsters.

2 - 3d6 + Skill, roll over, try and reduce the number of modifiers to more scalable fields.  For example aiming, bracing, leading the target etc are all rolled into a single modifier range.  Similarly reduce the number of procedural rolls.  Get hit locations and crits off the success roll.

3 - I liked the idea of Agility + Skill as the target number for attacks but on 3d6 it made Agility too good.  It might be as simple to fix as making attacks +5 to hit at point blank range.

4 - Powers should come with advantages and disadvantages and there should be options for swapping them around.  The idea being to cut down on the block bloat that 4e sufferes from and keep character builds simple and easy to read.  Cinematic stuff like trained by a master should be powers as should magic.  Cuts down on subsystem bloat.  Even so, magic should be very different than super powers.

5 - It's fine to have a skill for everything but more of them should go in cascade headings so that the overall list doesn't bloat the book.  I think it doesn't hurt to make some skills cost more than others relative to their difficulty but on the other hand there needs to be some flexability for character specific stuff that won't massively impact play.

Maybe disadvantages could tie in to specific things rather than going into the general pool?

Here's a bit of what I was doing with stats.  I'm not sure I'd do it exactly this way now but it illustrates what I was talking about.  However, here you bought factors in stats and they added into the stats so you didn't actually buy stat values.

Agility = 10 + Musculature + Coordination + Reflexes - Size
Intelligence = 10 + Empathy + Memory + Reason
Perception = 10 + Sight + Hearing + Smell
Strength = 10 + Endurance + Musculature + Size
Willpower = 10 + Confidence + Reason + Resolve

I think it would be better to buy the stats for ten points and have the sub stats act as ways you could buy them up and down for five points to model specific things.  Though I'd probably want to get away from the GURPS points scheme just to keep the separation clear.  Maybe a character's built on ten points and stats cost two points and sub stats and skills cost one.

• Why kick SJG when they seem to be decent folk trying to keep things steady?
• If you want a simple OSR version of TFT for some lightweight 3d6 fun, here's one that I play and rather enjoy: http://heroworlds.blogspot.co.uk/
  
• Why not play GURPS (it's rather well supported with a massive back catalogue) rather than ranting about systems?

I think EABA might be a contender here, but I can't say for sure without knowing more.

And one thing that would help GURPS's popularity is for SJG to release it as open source. The logic that 'giving it away for free' will cut into sales is flawed, and is unsupported by what happened with Pathfinder, Legend, (Mongoose) Traveller, and FATE Core.

EABA and CORPS really should have been on my list of alternatives.  If they were a single system instead of two different systems I'd probably think of them more often.

I am actually running two different GURPS campaigns in my store but it hasn't done anything for GURPS sales so far.  I've run a lot of GURPS in the last year and I'll probably run more.  But I doubt I'll sell much more.  It's just too intimidating for most people.

Steve Jackson has repeatedly said that he won't make GURPS open source.  Really it makes sense for SJG to control their game's content.  But doing so means new material slows to a crawl and that means sales slow to a crawl.  

Why kick SJG?  I guess the Dr. Kromm quote, combined with various other discussions around here just lately rubbed me the wrong way.  Be grateful we even take your money and shut up?  Bite me.

Quote from: tzunder;647322

• Why not play GURPS (it's rather well supported with a massive back catalogue) rather than ranting about systems?

Far be it from me to put words in people's mouths, but:

He wants a GURPS-a-like to write his own material for. An Open Source game, a GURPS OSRIC, if it makes sense.

There's a difference between "playing a game" and "releasing supplements for a game". Also "releasing supplements" and "releasing supplements without being sued".

In my mind.

Really my biggest problem with GURPS is taking the time to sift through all the options to get the campaign I want.

Taking the time to re-engineer the system from the ground up makes sorting through the options nearly inconsequential with regard to comparative time spent on the matter.

The only easy win is to shrug and play other games.

Speaking more as a Hero guy, but the principle being the same, I've got the stuff I need. I don't need a clone, a new version, or loads of new books.

I'm good, thanks. Sorry that my attitude won't support a bunch of happily employed game designers, but there it is.

Quote from: tzunder;647322

• Why kick SJG when they seem to be decent folk trying to keep things steady?

I am harsh on SJ Games on one issues because of their condescending reply when I took the time to carefully write up a problem I noticed with the accessibility and perception of the GURPS line.

The basic gist is that since the late 80s I been involved with various gaming convention and more important several LARP groups, which had a lot of tabletop games as well, in Western PA. Which meant I had contact with a number of gamers, low hundreds, centered in Pittsburgh but extending to the surrounding region.

Being the GURPS fan that I am, along the fact that most everybody involve likes play all type of game, meant that I try to recruit people into playing GURPS.

I had a handful of people try GURPS and really like it. And when they don't like it the overwhelming reason is that it too much work to start up a campaign or create a character. By overwhelming I mean like it the reason for 80% of the folks I talk too.

Likewise for my players nearly all of them enjoy my GURPS campaign but most say variants "The only reason I play GURPS is because you make it easy Rob".

And pretty the only GURPS campaigns I play in are those run by two oldest friends. The two friends that made the initial plunge with me in the late 80s.

By far the most successful period I had in recruiting GURPS gamers is when the 2nd Edition boxed set was out. Looking back that was because the 2nd Edition Boxed while a generic system presented itself largely as a fantasy system.  And you could combine it with the first Magic and the first Bestiary to get system that was comparable to AD&D and cheaper. And it was all thin softbound books which made it seems less complicated.

So when I laid this all out several years ago all I got was condescending replies and excuses why it couldn't fixed and how SJ Games wasn't interested in fixing, instead of going "let me check that and see if there is a problem here".

I bring it up occasionally afterwards and either the same excuses are repeated or something new is blamed like the market downturn in recent years.

This wasn't the only complaint I made. Some eventually got acted on because they were also echoed by a bunch of other folks. I just about had a heart attack when I saw the first two Dungeon Fantasy PDFs got released as I figured they would never do them due to Steve Jackson's antipathy towards D&D.

They still have issues with creating settings and adventures as good as their competition. Some are good like Transhuman Space, Tredroy, Harkwood, and Mirror of the Fire Demon. But others just keep beating a dead horse like the hardcover Banestorm.

Quote from: tzunder;647322

• Why not play GURPS (it's rather well supported with a massive back catalogue) rather than ranting about systems?

I do (http://therustybattleaxe.blogspot.com/2013/03/mmmmbacon-gurps-session-in-majestic.html).

Quote from: Exploderwizard;647342Really my biggest problem with GURPS is taking the time to sift through all the options to get the campaign I want.

You are most definitely not alone in that complaint about GURPS.

Quote from: David Johansen;647147Which makes me also wonder if there's potential for a fan driven, crowd sourced GURPS replacement problem.  I recognize that there's a lot of material out there but for anyone who loves the game and wants to contribute to its success SJG is like a great big wall of piss off.

So, what about it?  Is there potential to build a modular open source 3d6 engine with a realistic tactical bent that offers a compatible touch stone for personal creations without the resistance of a controlling publisher that lacks the vision or desire to go forward?

Mechanics can't be copyrighted, in the same way that lists of data like phone directories can't be copyrighted, so there's nothing stopping anyone using the ideas behind GURPs. They just can't use the name or dance too close to any text released by SJG. I'm not even sure whether or not you could put 'GURPs compatible' on the cover, but in theory there's nothing stopping anyone releasing a GURPs compatible bunch of stuff with the numbers filed off.

Obviously I amn't a lawyer, if you take this advice it's your ass etc etc.

Quote from: David Johansen;647161You get the direction and focus and a whole lot of the work done but it also removes the aspect of getting people involved and making them feel like a part of the process.

There's also the question of money of course.  Marco owns JAGS and probably would like a share of any money made.

I think you've moved on from this, but thought I'd answer anyway.

I think there's room for a lot more work. Version tailored to specific settings and adventures for example. Much of the same things done for D20. The lack of such things was always something of a failure with HERO (poor build standards for what they did, and what they did wasn't much) and a strength for GURPS.

I think the Forge proved that if you get ten or so people writing for something (in their case an idea, in yours- a system), you can make a big splash. Getting that ten is difficult.

Or not perhaps not. When I had Age of Heroes online as a free download I had two people create campaign supplements for it unasked. If that's possible for that game, it's likely possible for JAGS.

As for what Marco would what? You'd have to ask him, but last I checked he gave his game away for free. I doubt he'd complained about people adding on to it.

I played GURPS along time ago, think it was when it came in a box set?  It was kinda easy and was fun for awhile and we liked it.  years passed the game was lost or what have you and I saw GURPS 4E, picked it up in the book store, took it home we tried it out made a few characters for banestorm setting and played the game.  We tried several other times as well but after awhile we just gave up. as the system just seemed way too bulky to my friends and me and you maybe able to create any type of character you want but these days there are plenty of other games that can do the same things with less headaches in both character creation and combat.  Not to mention we really hated the 3d6 method and thought a 2d10 combat roll method would have been better.

I'll just leave this here...

http://opend6.wikia.com/wiki/Open_D6_Resurrection_Wiki (http://opend6.wikia.com/wiki/Open_D6_Resurrection_Wiki)

Ok, so maybe it's not GURPS, not by a long shot, but it did come to replace GURPS for me, and it uses D6s to boot :D

Well, mostly I'm just testing the waters on ideas.  I frequently seen GURPS fans wanting to submit stuff and having had a similar experience to estar's (well said by the way, well said) I find myself warning them that SJG isn't exactly friendly to new talent or ideas.

There was another one this week and in conjunction with the Dr. Kromm quote that I found pretty condescending and offensive (I'm sorry I bought your products master please don't kick me again.) and the discussion here about companies not taking advantage of the D&D 4e catastrophe it got me thinking about building an alternative.

What testing the waters has shown me is that people are too fragmented or too loyal for such a project to work.

Still, it's got me thinking.  For a few years now I've had my design work on the back burner.  Starting up the store and all that to try promoting and selling the games I'd like to see do well.  I'd concluded that the market was too saturated and too tight to really allow new start ups to do well and decided to support the existing games that I liked even if I was unhappy with where they were at or going.  I spent a year helping to revise Rolemaster into a game I have no desire to play for a company I have no desire to support.  I spent a year running GURPS games for people who were playing because it was what I was running and not because they had any real interest in the system.  Heck I even failed to give away GURPS books a couple times this year.

So where does this leave me?  The store's fun and I'll run it as long as I can keep it sovent without seriously risking my financial well being.  But I think it's time to knuckle down and get my own games out into the market place.  They've progressed quite a bit this year and Incandescent has seen a decent bit of playtest.  I'll be getting back to my Rolemaster Standard System campaign now that I've got a more stable player base in place again.  

But it's time to finish stuff up and put it out there.  If I don't like how other companies handle their products its time to stop whining about it and take my own shot.  I'm not sure what that means for the store yet.  It's been fun but it's a lot of work and money getting it going and I'm running out of companies I feel any desire to support or promote.

Quote from: David Johansen;647154JAGS is okay but I think the system would need to be a bit looser and more modular.  The whole 4d6-4 thing is a bit of a problem IMO

Not too familiar with JAGS (I have the PA sourcebook they did years ago...Have Not?  It's very good!), but why couldn't you just treat any 6 on a die as a zero?  You get the same spread, no need to subtract.

Quote from: David Johansen;647454It's been fun but it's a lot of work and money getting it going and I'm running out of companies I feel any desire to support or promote.

That's always a danger in just about any field. I hope you work out a solution that suits your needs.

Quote from: KenHR;647464Not too familiar with JAGS (I have the PA sourcebook they did years ago...Have Not?  It's very good!), but why couldn't you just treat any 6 on a die as a zero?  You get the same spread, no need to subtract.

Looking to the future...

If predictions of price drops and attendant ubiquity of 3-D printers prove true, RPG'ers could be able to design custom dice for any game. Fudge dice, 0-5 6-siders, the outré n-siders used for DCC.

Would be cool, to download a PDF of a game, along with templates for printing customized dice and maybe minis. Whole new era in gaming.

[Snipped an excellent post]

Quote from: David Johansen;647454What testing the waters has shown me is that people are too fragmented or too loyal for such a project to work.

I publish for Swords & Wizardry, I play mostly GURPS.  Now I do eat my own dogfood with Swords & Wizardry by running a game store campaign for a number of years. But my preference is by far GURPS.

But....

I learned that I can still present the things I want to present despite not using my system of choice. Namely sandbox campaigning with hexcrawl maps and my Majestic Wilderlands. The Majestic Wilderlands supplement doesn't play quite like the GURPS version of those notes. Certainly not as customizable. But you know what? It pretty close and bears up in the five years I been running the two side by side.

Folks publish for a lot of reasons, for me it is about getting my material in the largest audience possible while making some beer money. So my choices back in 2008 were

1) To make my own RPG
2) To use a OGL skill based system, at the time Mongoose Runequest I or Fudge/Fate
3) Publish for 4e using the GSL
4) D20/Pathfinder
5) Publishing for the legacy D&D crowd using a retro-clone.

I went with #5 because

1) I would have to build an audience from ground zero for my own RPG and I don't think I will do well at that.

2) Mongoose has a order of magnitude smaller audience than the Legacy D&D crowd. How most Fudge/Fate system are designed is not what I like to focus on. So if I did how I wanted I would have the same problem as #1 and perhaps worse.

3) Well I am not going to publish using a license that can be yanked out from under me at anytime like the D20 trademark license. Also while talking to game store owners, I felt that the buy Wizard only tendency of game in the late 3.5 era would just increase.

4) I hate with the fire of a thousand suns creating D20 style stat block. After doing it for the three Goodman Games Judges Guild modules.

5) Older edition D&D is easy to modify and has the largest hobby audience of any of the mainstream RPGs. I picked Swords & Wizardry Core rules as it the closest thing to an Ur-D&D I could find and a very generous open license and trademark license.

If I really wanted to publish material for a skill based system with detailed tactical combat I would pick Legends or Openquest. For the purposes of publishing the difference between those two and GURPS is virtually nil.

Yeah, which is true enough if your main bent is fantasy.  On the other hand, if there's a bridge in D&D fan country I haven't burnt it's only because I didn't know about it :D

Quote from: danbuter;647249Take Gurps and get rid of 80% of the skills. Maybe rename a few things. Publish it.

Wasnt that called the tri-stat system;):)

Nah it was FUDGE.

I do not understand the premise of this thread.

What support is GURPS missing by this point?

Almost every major genre is covered by a hardback. It has pdf supplements on D&D style games, action movie style games, Martial arts, space, magic, psionics, multiple weapons and combat supplements etc. etc. etc. There is nearly 200 supplements for that game.

Seriously, what isn't supported (http://e23.sjgames.com/search.html?gsys=GURPS%204th%20Ed.)?

You sound like a bunch of spoiled jerks. Throwing a fit because they are temporarily not releasing products? Threaten to take your money elsewhere? Plot a retro-clone revenge? Why don't you just play the the goddamned Gurps you already have.

It has rules for different settings, it does not have the settings themselves. This is a big contrast to earlier editions of GURPS; it used to be famed for its excellent setting books, which were bought even by people who didn't play GURPS. Now it's famed for its obscure and overly-detailed rules which are used by no-one and only argued over by BNGs.

Retro-Revenge?  I like your turn of phrase sir!

But no, revenge isn't the point.  The point is that I do a lot of work for my campaigns and sometimes I'd like to be able to do more with them than make a fan page.  SJG has no intrest whatsoever in publishing such material.  Over the years I've seen at least a dozen people show interest in publishing their work for GURPS stuff and there's no way for them to do it.

No game I design will wind up close enough to GURPS for that to work but a unix-like project might.

As far as releases go.  GURPS is a hard game to sell people on playing let alone buying.  Like every single massive compendium edition ever including the D&D Rules Compendium, the GURPS Basic Set is popular with fans of the game and virtually impossible to sell to new players.

It's also a real problem in play.  You can't just hand the book to most people and expect them to build a character for a generic fantasy campaign or a western.  There's just too much stuff in the book that has no place in those campaigns.  Yes you can write up a list but it would be very nice to either have a campaign specific core book that didn't result in every player asking if they can take Battlesuit skill or at least a mundane core book that completely strips powers and cinematic abilities out of the core book.

What's missing?  Well, a proper bestiary covering real animals for starters.  A vehicles book that covers a wide range of real and futuristic vehicles.  A realm management and or mercantile economics book.  New settings, I know settings supposedly haven't done all that well but that always seems weird given how many people claim to have loved the world books and hated the system.  Adventures and solo adventures, yes solo adventures, why not damnit?

Oh well it's okay, really, I've had a lot of disagreements with SJG's aproach over the years, mostly I'm just realizing that I don't feel at all inclined to support them any more.  After all they aren't at all inclined to support me.

Quote from: David Johansen;647670As far as releases go.  GURPS is a hard game to sell people on playing let alone buying.  Like every single massive compendium edition ever including the D&D Rules Compendium, the GURPS Basic Set is popular with fans of the game and virtually impossible to sell to new players.

What I do to get around this, and just went through the process with a GURPS novice last night, is use GURPS Lite, GURPS Characters, and selected copies of templates that is the closest to the type of character the person wants to play.

Last night it was to help him make a 125 point character so we talked about the character's background made a few roll on a family generator I use for these things, and then I gave him a copy of the Solider template from the fan created GURPS Historical Folks, the Guard Template from DF Henchmen, and the Squire Template also from DF Henchmen.  He ultimately decided to go with the Squire Template using the advice from the Holy option. As he wanted to play a lay warrior of a religous fighting order.

Doesn't change the fact that I agree that it would be nice to have an all in one powered by GURPS Fantasy RPG book to him to use or recommend to buy.

Quote from: KrakaJak;647633You sound like a bunch of spoiled jerks. Throwing a fit because they are temporarily not releasing products? Threaten to take your money elsewhere? Plot a retro-clone revenge? Why don't you just play the the goddamned Gurps you already have.

The big problem is finding, recruiting, and retaining players. Not system support or having something new and shiny to play with.

I will get GURPS Zombies when it is released as I know it will be good and probably have some very thought provoking ideas to throw into my campaign. But I have to say is this type of product really what best for the line at this point?

A minor problem is that it would be nice to just to have some ready to run material like folk enjoy for D&D and other fantasy RPGs.

Quote from: estar;647680A minor problem is that it would be nice to just to have some ready to run material like folk enjoy for D&D and other fantasy RPGs.

SJgames actively refuses to believe that people find GURPS intimidating and difficult to use and thus have done NOTHING to counter that perception.

I think it comes closer to actively don't want to see GURPS succeed.  Rpg books are a lot of work for the money and they don't really want to do the work when they can just print money errr Munchkin.

In essence they're good with GURPS where it's at and wouldn't cry if it stopped being something they had to bother printing and inventorying.  Keeping it around is a service to the fans, nothing more.

So, while I may use GURPS in the future if it suits my needs, once again it's not something I'm going to put any effort into promoting or selling anymore.

I would be willing do work on a replacement game but with HERO, CORPS, EABA, Fate, FUDGE, and d6 out there I'd need to see sufficient interest in the project.

One thing I'm pretty sure I'd want to do is push basic damage for Strength 10 up to 3d6.  It'd give some room to scale down to handle lower Strength characters.  Armor and hit points would have to be adjusted but I think Strength + Health HP makes sense.

Quote from: Piestrio;647855SJgames actively refuses to believe that people find GURPS intimidating and difficult to use and thus have done NOTHING to counter that perception.

I bought 4E and my immediate reaction was that it is now intimidating and hard to play.  Many, many options were added to the 3E GURPS that I remembered, all of which helped with accuracy but none of which made the system easy.  

What makes games like Munchkin (and Ogre, back in the day) work so well is that you don't need to know much about the game to start playing.  Time from opening the box to playing can be 15 minutes.  A new player can have an oral tutorial in the major points and play immediately  It can take a while to master, but it is easy to start (like playing HEARTS, the card game, for example).  

Default GURPS is a lot of pages with a ton of rules.  It takes a lot of work to say "we are using X but not Y" and the combat options are fairly unintuitive at first.  It's not that it isn't a good system (it is) but that it takes a lot of work to understand how to craft the default rules into a campaign.

Older GURPS had the bare bones only, which obeyed the maxim of RPG design that it is always easier to add on material than it is to subtract it out.

Quote from: Votan;647940Default GURPS is a lot of pages with a ton of rules.  It takes a lot of work to say "we are using X but not Y" and the combat options are fairly unintuitive at first.  It's not that it isn't a good system (it is) but that it takes a lot of work to understand how to craft the default rules into a campaign.

Bullshit.

They give you (the gamer/customer) credit for having a brain and being able to make choices - how is that 'bad' or 'complex'?

- Ed C.

I was wondering when you'd weigh in Ed.

Given that the majority of the population thinks Monopoly is a big complex game and ignores half the rule book and Basic Dungeons & Dragons was seen as impossibly complex and difficult to understand?

Sorry dude 4e's just a craptacular introductory product.  It's a great reference work, well organized and indexed but it's a terrible teaching and learning tool.

For me, it's time to move on.  I think for anyone who wants a living system or a functional product, it's time to move on.

Quote from: Koltar;647979Bullshit.

They give you (the gamer/customer) credit for having a brain and being able to make choices - how is that 'bad' or 'complex'?

- Ed C.

I see we have a partisan.  

The basic rulebook, with just the character piece, is 336 pages.  The campaign book kicks it up to 576 pages.  

GURPS third edition was 272 pages and I found it easier to use and not especially limiting.  My impression of 4E GURPS was that they added a lot of the options from 3E source books and options into a new core edition.  

So the real issues are accessibility and complexity.  Sure, I can edit out the rules that I do not want.  But now I have a house rules document plus a 576 page two book basic set (note carefully no world book has yet been added).  

Now if GURPS is your passion then it is fine.  But I have the same basic objection to 4E GURPS as I do to Pathfinder -- giving people a 600 page rulebook is not the way to speed up rules mastery.  It's not that simple == good, but that there is a cost to making people go through a ton of rules.

You may be blessed with a group of active gamers with good system mastery in place.  But training people to understand GURPS has gotten tougher with time and the modern rulebooks don't help.  If they work for you and your circle of friend then more power to you.  But everything looks easy when you are very familiar with it.

Quote from: estar;647680A minor problem is that it would be nice to just to have some ready to run material like folk enjoy for D&D and other fantasy RPGs.

Do you mean adventures (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0031)? Or easy to run, D&D style fantasy (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0303)? Some sort of Monster Manual (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-1564)?

Quote from: VotanNow if GURPS is your passion then it is fine. But I have the same basic objection to 4E GURPS as I do to Pathfinder -- giving people a 600 page rulebook is not the way to speed up rules mastery. It's not that simple == good, but that there is a cost to making people go through a ton of rules.

Quote from: David JohansenSorry dude 4e's just a craptacular introductory product.

What about the free introductory level product (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004)? You can run that free adventure I posted above with it. Hell, you can run dozens of different campaigns with the lite version.

I'm not even a big Gurps fan, but I can see that almost every base is covered by the game line. I think Gurps does have issues with PR and marketing. But I'm not a RPG store owner, so I don't have a dog in that race.

Quote from: David JohansenWhat's missing? Well, a proper bestiary covering real animals for starters. A vehicles book that covers a wide range of real and futuristic vehicles. A realm management and or mercantile economics book. New settings, I know settings supposedly haven't done all that well but that always seems weird given how many people claim to have loved the world books and hated the system. Adventures and solo adventures, yes solo adventures, why not damnit?

I'm trying to understand; Do you want Gurps more or less complicated? You say the ruleset is incomprehensible, but you want a Gurps: Mercantile Economics book? Wait, Fuck! (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-1663), hey have that too. Also, Realm Management (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-1661).

Vehicles, I hear, is still coming. Again, do you want something simple, or the complex Gurps: Vehicles of 3e? I think there are plenty of usable vehicles in the genre/world/time period books already available.

A collected bestiary would be great. As they've done it now, they have the stats for beasts all over the place(riding animals and game in Low Tech, Dinosaurs in Lands Out of Time etc.). A creature compendium would be a great addition, even if the just collected the stat blocks and descriptions from all of their other published books.

Every time I read someone wanting a 'bestiary' to me that just means they got over-programmed by D&D and the D&D mindset that there HAS to be a 'Monster Manual' or 'Bestiary' all the time in every RPG.

No, there really doesn't have to be one.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;648019Every time I read someone wanting a 'bestiary' to me that just means they got over-programmed by D&D and the D&D mindset that there HAS to be a 'Monster Manual' or 'Bestiary' all the time in every RPG.

No, there really doesn't have to be one.

They are nice though. I guess it would remove much of the attraction of the existing supplement treadmill. GURPs is an alright system but the presentation and layout aren't very good, as others have mentioned. You can get it to do more or less what you want but only by forcing the GM to put on a designer's hat, and most GMs aren't willing to do that, nor should they be. Ergo, by its nature a GM needs to be experienced before setting it up so it's not really an entry point into the hobby.

KrakaJack, GURPS Lite is only good for modern and historical games and it's actually even denser than the core book.  There's a lot in there for so few pages.  I've been advocating for a GUPS Lite Fantasy supplement for years and years.  I've even put some work into writing one but since I can't just copy and paste the magic rules from the Basic Set and some of the races and monsters from Banes Storm without permission (yes I've asked, no they won't) it won't ever be quite as compatible as it should be.  Dungeon Fantasy requires the Basic Set so it's not the introductory material I'm talking about.

Nor is it in any way contradictory to want complex material in supplements while wanting a simple core.  A simple core makes it easier to bring in new people.  The economic rules mean that I've got rules for the times when the PCs all want to be merchants.  Really I've even had an entire party of Doctors once, can we get advanced surgical rules please?

Quote from: Koltar;648019Every time I read someone wanting a 'bestiary' to me that just means they got over-programmed by D&D and the D&D mindset that there HAS to be a 'Monster Manual' or 'Bestiary' all the time in every RPG.

No, there really doesn't have to be one.

That not what many gamers I am trying to introduce GURPS to tell me.

My criticisms of GURPS are not pulled out of my ass but born of talking and playing with hundreds (low hundreds) of gamers in the western Pennsylvania.

Now I know that you work for a game store and that different regions of the country have different opinions when it comes to what gamers like and don't like. Outside of Western PA I only talked to a far fewer number of games mostly when I stop at the local gamestore when I am on a business trip.

With all that caveat out of the way, the overwhelming response I get in response to adopting GURPS is that it is way too much work.

So either I am getting a skewed idea of how the market as a whole perceives GURPS. Or that it is truly an issue with GURPS. But I feel I have an accurate view based on the same opinion being voiced to me year after year by new gamers.

And what I really don't like is how SJ Games and the forum members over on the SJ Games initially responded to my initial posting on this issue both publicly and privately. I wrote a polite email explaining the problem and why.

I didn't expect them to agreed with me as they supposedly have access to far better data than I do (their sales figures). But I did expect a better response than the total insulting brush off I got. It especially annoying because in my day job I often deal with challenging technical problems from customers that are sometime very unhelpful. If treated them like I was treated I would be fired.

And to be clear this is a blind spot in an otherwise excellent gaming company. I seen this before where companies and individuals that are very good and very competent have a handful of blind spots that they can't or won't admit that they suck at. The lack of a decent ready to run GURPS product is one of them.  

Transhuman Space, World War II, and Discworld are not good subjects for a
powered by GURPS RPG that would draw in gamers looking for alternatives.

Quote from: Votan;647989The basic rulebook, with just the character piece, is 336 pages.  The campaign book kicks it up to 576 pages.  

GURPS third edition was 272 pages and I found it easier to use and not especially limiting.  My impression of 4E GURPS was that they added a lot of the options from 3E source books and options into a new core edition.  

So the real issues are accessibility and complexity.  Sure, I can edit out the rules that I do not want.  But now I have a house rules document plus a 576 page two book basic set (note carefully no world book has yet been added).  

I disagree about complexity. GURPS issues is solely one of presentation and accessibility. Having used many complex RPGs, I feel that the GURPS core books are an outstanding reference book. But reference books are not what is needed to entice gamers from other systems into playing your game when they seek out alternatives.

One other thing about GURPS Lite: it is totally settingless.  Yes you can run Caravan to Ein Arris and All In A Night's Work.  But frankly it just doesn't give you enough to run much of a game.

It's a great hand out.  I use it with new players as such.  Of course then they want the core book in hand for more options and that's when the trouble begins.

Quote from: KrakaJak;648008Do you mean adventures (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0031)? Or easy to run, D&D style fantasy (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0303)? Some sort of Monster Manual (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-1564)?

Caravan to Ein Arris is a very bland  introductory adventure especially if you want to get players of Dungeons & Dragons to adopt your product. They would have been better off using something based around Orcslayer with more roleplaying involved.

Dungeon Fantasy primarily benefits those who already use GURPS, like me. As a introductory products it has the twin strikes of being an add-on and requiring a total of 5 books to use. Two Core books, Magic, DF 1, and DF 2. And while you get a ton of characters options, a good selection of equipment, the treasure selection and monster selection pale compared to the other alternatives that people can pick.

And Creatures of Night is typically of why SJ Games struggles with bestiaries. Except it is full of creatures nobody ever heard of which causes the same problem Runequest 2nd Edition and Tekemel had.

In my experience most gamers when looking for alternatives are not typically looking to jettison the entirety of what they had with D&D. Often they are looking for a better D&D. Better characters customization, more realistic and detailed combat and so on.

Two things are affecting GURPS sales negatively no matter how much of it gets converted to expensive PDFs: GURPS itself, and the current RPG industry.

Not sure how an open/clone/SRD/whathaveyou of GURPS would be more popular?

GURPS' "problem" has always been it does what it says on the tin.  It gives you everything you need.  The problem is, you need to create not only the setting from the available options, but the game itself.

If they actually cared about selling it, they could do a lot worse then look to how SW products are structured.  A series of specific games "Powered by GURPS", would show people how to take 12 million pieces and make it into something specific.

Quote from: CRKrueger;648058GURPS' "problem" has always been it does what it says on the tin.  It gives you everything you need.  The problem is, you need to create not only the setting from the available options, but the game itself.

If they actually cared about selling it, they could do a lot worse then look to how SW products are structured.  A series of specific games "Powered by GURPS", would show people how to take 12 million pieces and make it into something specific.

Agreed. GURPS as is stands in 4th Edition asks you to read 600 pages and decide for yourself which 100 you need for your campaign. This is great as a reference book, as others have said, but it would be rather more accessible if it was (say) a 128 page "core rules" book supplemented by settings.

My experience with GURPS is much the same as others described and I'm sure I've mentioned it before.

I really liked the 4e books at first, but every time I sat down to do anything with them I realized that the toolkit approach essentially meant hundreds of hours of work to do damn near anything to have enough ready to use material to actually run a campaign.

I'm not the only one - all the GURPS people in my area are either sticking with 3e or they just use 4e lite to run historical games.

I think GURPS is a fine system. It really does need just some genre books full of ready to use material. If you could combine the tons of ready to use material you get from games like Palladium's products with the rules of GURPS, you'd really have something (note - I'm not saying convert Palladium to GURPS, I'm saying have books of ready to use stuff like Palladium does).

Quote from: jgants;648080I really liked the 4e books at first, but every time I sat down to do anything with them I realized that the toolkit approach essentially meant hundreds of hours of work to do damn near anything to have enough ready to use material to actually run a campaign.

If you have GURPS already then the various PDF lines are really useful.

GURPS Action (http://e23.sjgames.com/search.html?gsys=GURPS%20Action)
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy (http://e23.sjgames.com/search.html?gsys=GURPS%20Dungeon%20Fantasy)
GURPS Monster Hunters (http://e23.sjgames.com/search.html?gsys=GURPS%20Monster%20Hunters)

BaneStorm has a lot of useful of stuff for any fantasy campaign as well.

Quote from: estar;648087If you have GURPS already then the various PDF lines are really useful.

GURPS Action (http://e23.sjgames.com/search.html?gsys=GURPS%20Action)
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy (http://e23.sjgames.com/search.html?gsys=GURPS%20Dungeon%20Fantasy)
GURPS Monster Hunters (http://e23.sjgames.com/search.html?gsys=GURPS%20Monster%20Hunters)

BaneStorm has a lot of useful of stuff for any fantasy campaign as well.

Those games sound very tongue in cheek by the titles, are they serious approaches or just lots of wacky gonzo and 4th wall stuff?  I don't have any interest in Munchkin the RPG (at least not as a main fantasy line).

Why does GURPS have to be replaced, anyways?

Quote from: jeff37923;648121Why does GURPS have to be replaced, anyways?

It doesn't "have" to be replaced, it would just be nice to have more simple focused GURPS-like material out there. SJ Games doesn't seem interested in producing it or allowing others to do so for actual GURPS.

A quasi-GURPS clone is one way to go but its even more work than sifting through the existing system for the desired bits so it isn't that attractive an option.

Quote from: CRKrueger;648114Those games sound very tongue in cheek by the titles, are they serious approaches or just lots of wacky gonzo and 4th wall stuff?  I don't have any interest in Munchkin the RPG (at least not as a main fantasy line).

Steve always has shown a preference for whacked out gonzo humor over grim dark.

Anyhow, "Why does GURPS need replaced?" well if you're a D&D fan who doesn't play GURPS it probably doesn't.  But if you're a GURPS fan who'd like to see the game do better or wants to contribute in a meaningful way you pretty much have to find another game because SJG has no interest at all in your setting you put years into or whether the new players to the game can handle eating the whole cow.  Then it becomes a question of which of the existing games offer you a superior alternative.

For me, I think I'll be giving CORPS another look.  Others might find the d6 system or JAGS to be the answer.  None of these solutions really help me out as a retailer who wants to promote alternatives.

I'd love to see something more like a Linux approach but there seems to be a bit of interest as long as somebody else does it.  That is to say, someone else does all the work and then they can look it over and decide if it suits their needs at which they might deign to participate.

That's fine but I've got my own systems I'm working on that aren't GURPS derived in any way and I'll just keep plugging along on those if that's the case.

I've been messing with GURPS WWII, as I think I mentioned in another thread, and to that end, I've grabbed a few other GURPS 3e books super-cheap from various places online. I understand why that's not a model for a retailer, but it's worked pretty well for me.

Quote from: Votan;647989I see we have a partisan.

Don't you mean collaborator?;)
(I will also accept the term "Vichy")

Quote from: The Traveller;648021They are nice though. I guess it would remove much of the attraction of the existing supplement treadmill. GURPs is an alright system but the presentation and layout aren't very good, as others have mentioned. You can get it to do more or less what you want but only by forcing the GM to put on a designer's hat, and most GMs aren't willing to do that, nor should they be. Ergo, by its nature a GM needs to be experienced before setting it up so it's not really an entry point into the hobby.

SOmetimes its not about experience or being able to do it. But time to do it. Can I build what ever creature using the books? SUre. But do I have the time not always. Is it (Monster Manual) a crutch or a tool. I suppose in the eye of the beholder.

Quote from: CRKrueger;648114Those games sound very tongue in cheek by the titles, are they serious approaches or just lots of wacky gonzo and 4th wall stuff?  I don't have any interest in Munchkin the RPG (at least not as a main fantasy line).

While those books are awesome you already have to know and understand the GURPS rules to get any use out of them. They're for the hardcore fans.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;648054Not sure how an open/clone/SRD/whathaveyou of GURPS would be more popular?

It would allow for a diversity of approaches. Some bad, most so-so but a few gems would be created that would be good and have the potential to make GURPS appealing for a new generation of gamers.

At that point the goal would be replacing GURPS not supporting or popularizing it as the thread title suggests.  It becomes about making a point / showing what could be done.

The goal would indeed be to surpass GURPS in the marketplace thus freeing up the staff at SJG to produce even more Munchkin crap.

Quote from: CRKrueger;648114Those games sound very tongue in cheek by the titles, are they serious approaches or just lots of wacky gonzo and 4th wall stuff?  I don't have any interest in Munchkin the RPG (at least not as a main fantasy line).

Well they have their distinct takes. Dungeon Fantasy is oriented around 250 pt characters due to the line putting an overemphasis on making GURPS characters that can survive D&D style dungeons. But aside from that it is very solid for any Fantasy Campaign. The ones I found particularly useful in the DF line for my Majestic Wilderlands campaign (150 pt typical)

DF 2 Dungeons
DF 5 Allies
DF 8 Treasure Types
DF 9 Summoners
DF 13 Loadouts
DF 15 Henchmen (especially for lower point fantasy templates)
DF Monsters 1
DF Adventure 1

Treasure Types is very very good and useful for even my Swords & Wizardry game.

The combined line has largely addressed my complaints about fantasy support for the GURPS Lines.




Action is over the top but not gonzo. And like DF has very useful rules for things like chase resolution.

Monster Hunter is pretty straight and true to the genre. Allowing for Supernatural, Buffer, Vampire Diaries, Dresden etc.

Quote from: estar;648298It would allow for a diversity of approaches. Some bad, most so-so but a few gems would be created that would be good and have the potential to make GURPS appealing for a new generation of gamers.

If the SRD is more popular than GURPS, no one would bother with GURPS.  Maybe if the SRD for GURPS is terrible, people would assume that GURPS is great and get it. :)

Quote from: David Johansen;648301The goal would indeed be to surpass GURPS in the marketplace thus freeing up the staff at SJG to produce even more Munchkin crap.

The only time I see people play Munchkin is when the SJGame guy is touring the stores doing tournaments.

Quote from: Koltar;648019Every time I read someone wanting a 'bestiary' to me that just means they got over-programmed by D&D and the D&D mindset that there HAS to be a 'Monster Manual' or 'Bestiary' all the time in every RPG.

No, there really doesn't have to be one.

- Ed C.

I don't think there has to be one, but it would be helpful if someone wants to shoot a gun at an elk and you want to know if it's dead.

Quote from: David JohansenDungeon Fantasy requires the Basic Set so it's not the introductory material I'm talking about.

Nor is it in any way contradictory to want complex material in supplements while wanting a simple core. A simple core makes it easier to bring in new people.

Sorry, I understand that you are an experienced Gurps player, so those supplements were recommended for you rather then as an introduction. There is no simple classic fantasy introduction (until Gurps: Discworld comes out). I disagree about Gurps Lite BTW. Gurps Lite has plenty support for "other genres" why couldn't you run a Magic-less fantasy, a 1920s pulp game or even a Slasher movie with Lite?

If you are the one introducing new players, I think Gurps "core" is actually pretty simple to teach. 3d6 roll under. You can reduce the game's complexity all the way down to it's 4 base stats and it still works. I myself don't play with Ads/Disads unless they are part of a template.

As I've said before, Gurps is not a perfect game (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20450). (Hey, you're in that thread too!) However, for the initiated, there is support for just about anything you could want.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;648305The only time I see people play Munchkin is when the SJGame guy is touring the stores doing tournaments.

That is only YOUR view of things and narrow experience. In southwestern Ohio (Cincinnati general area) MUNCHKIN is extremely popular. People that have NEVER played D&D or roleplaying games come in looking for it. Plenty of times have sold out of the original version and just have variations on the shelf (SUPER MUNCHKIN, MUNCHKIN Apovalypse,...etc)


Also there are very often pick-up games of MUNCHKIN at our tables. Those happen both with our DEMO copy of it and with just-purchased copies.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Ronin;648237Don't you mean collaborator?;)
(I will also accept the term "Vichy")

One man's terrorist is another woman's freedom fighter.

Ok. Interesting thread.

It started with a 'let's do a simple clone of GURPS!' to which my answer is "Heroes and Other Worlds" which is a retro cone of TFT, of which GURPS is a retro clone rejigged to the the nth degree with complexity.

Then, "we need a simple lite fantasy intro to GURPS". Here there is some truth that GURPS falls into the 3rd wave of rpgs (HERO, RQ3, maybe 3e D&D, MegaTraveller) where the complexity of the game grew huge (usually in pursuit of simulation or verisimilitude. Problem is.. we all got families and lives and decided we liked simpler games, hence the lighter indie games and the return to older styles, OSR, Mongoose Traveller, FATE, OpenQuest. So.. if SJG don't want to do a very light fantasy GURPS, then I refer you to answer 1.

Then it became, "SJG don't support GURPS". Bollocks. They support it more than any game system evah! All those 3e books and settings are as valid now as they ever were, since GURPS settings were wonderfully system light, they work as well with 4e as they do with Traveller or FATE or D&D.

Quote from: Koltar;648385In southwestern Ohio (Cincinnati general area) MUNCHKIN is extremely popular.

I seriously doubt that.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;648628I seriously doubt that.

I live in Texas. Far away from SJG, and its pretty damn popular here. (My brother in law, who is NOT into RPG's at all, brought over a copy to play.)

I've seen arrive at game stores looking for Munchkin People who'd never played any RPGs. It has happened enough times to feel that Koltar up there isn't wrong in his view. (I've spent an inordinate time hanging out at game stores it seems.)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;648628I seriously doubt that.

Pretty popular in my neck of the woods.

Quote from: Piestrio;648640Pretty popular in my neck of the woods.

Yeah. In my experience, GURPS is a cult game. It's got pockets of activity here and there and some isolated die-hards who run games with their circles of gamer friends who regularly play other games. It's got a strong following, but not one you can see right off the bat on forums, new product lists on websites, new shiny interviews on blogs and whatnot, especially considering the buttload of material published in years past, which means these guys could keep on gaming without purchasing anything official til Kingdom Come.

PS: LOL well the original comment was about MUNCHKIN. I mistook the comment to be about GURPS. I'll just let it because it really reflects my experience of the fans of the game and its popularity.

PPS: I've seen Munchkin being played in FLGS casually in Vancouver, BC. It's pretty popular around there, apparently.

Quote from: Piestrio;648640Pretty popular in my neck of the woods.

Yeah, I have played Munchkin with a crowd that had almost no idea what D&D was (theater student+ architect couple and their friends).  So even in Seattle it seems to have a broad base of interest.

Quote from: estar;648046I disagree about complexity. GURPS issues is solely one of presentation and accessibility. Having used many complex RPGs, I feel that the GURPS core books are an outstanding reference book. But reference books are not what is needed to entice gamers from other systems into playing your game when they seek out alternatives.

I was thinking of complexity in terms of the amount of material that you have to digest in order to decide what makes sense for a particular campaign.  

I know GURPS can do good presentation because we saw much better presentation with 3E.  In particular, there was a much clearer attempt to build intuition about what the numbers mean, which is critical to really understanding the system without trying a lot of things out first.  Putting this in highly visible tables that jumped out was a really nice piece of the book layout.

It also made it relatively easy to guesstimate what skill levels and attributes a specific NPC would likely have, which was always good.

Quote from: Votan;648654Yeah, I have played Munchkin with a crowd that had almost no idea what D&D was (theater student+ architect couple and their friends).  So even in Seattle it seems to have a broad base of interest.

It boggles that someone wouldn't think it was popular honestly.

Target doesn't stock product just for shits and giggles.

I wonder if Munchkin outsells D&D these days?  That would be pretty funny.

I can't deny that there's a lot about 4e that has bothered me from the beginning.  I hate that they included Infinite Worlds and the sample characters in the core.  That space could have provided a larger section on vehicles and animals and monsters that would have gone a long ways towards having the game be more universal in the core book.  I dislike the formating of advantages and skills.  It would have made a lot of sense to separate out the non-mundane advantages and sort skills by function as in 3e.

On the other hand, the mechanical changes brought me back when I had given up on GURPS as an inherently flawed and broken system.  

Still the disappointments after the initial ambitious promises can't be overstated.

Quote from: Votan;648654Yeah, I have played Munchkin with a crowd that had almost no idea what D&D was (theater student+ architect couple and their friends).  So even in Seattle it seems to have a broad base of interest.

Are Munchkin players supposed to know about D&D?  Anyway, it's just a gag/pun joke card game that is fun to play once maybe.  Because after you've read all the jokes...  re-gift.  I like how people will say how sales of a game have doubled in the last week if they sold 2 boxes.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;648678Are Munchkin players supposed to know about D&D?  Anyway, it's just a gag/pun joke card game that is fun to play once maybe.  Because after you've read all the jokes...  re-gift.  I like how people will say how sales of a game have doubled in the last week if they sold 2 boxes.

Take those 2 boxes and then multiply by 50,000 for last year alone.

Quote from:  SJ Games Stakeholder reportEarly in 2012, we ordered 100,000 copies of Munchkin . . . and that print run barely got us through the year!

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;648628I seriously doubt that.

You seriously doubt that the extremely popular game is extremely popular in Ohio?

OK. Cool story, bro.

Quote from: Koltar;648019No, there really doesn't have to be one.

There doesn't "need" to be one, but bestiaries are the single best time-saver for prep that exists. They're also utterly invaluable for improvising material when the PCs go haring off in an unexpected direction.

If your game system has even the slightest degree of complexity (i.e., anything which assigns more than a single stat to an NPC), I'd much rather be able to say "4 goblins", flip open a book, and start using them.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;648691You seriously doubt that the extremely popular game is extremely popular in Ohio?

I don't doubt you're a fanboy of the game.  Let me know when everyone has bought every add-on for this extremely popular game.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;648711I don't doubt you're a fanboy of the game.  Let me know when everyone has bought every add-on for this extremely popular game.

Hint: just because you don't like a game doesn't mean it's not a good seller/popular.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;648678Are Munchkin players supposed to know about D&D?  Anyway, it's just a gag/pun joke card game that is fun to play once maybe.  Because after you've read all the jokes...  re-gift.  I like how people will say how sales of a game have doubled in the last week if they sold 2 boxes.

My wife and I know three separate couples who have nothing to do with RPGs (not even MMOs) and who love Munchkin.  It's got way more appeal than you think it does.

Yeah, there's good reasons not to like the game - it's a bit too long for how interesting it is, it's jokes tend to be funny-once, and the more expansions you throw in the slower it gets.

But that aside, SJGames wouldn't be talking about how their #1 challenge each year was keeping Munchkin in print if it wasn't selling like hotcakes.  Someone's buying it, and someone's keeping it.

Quote from: Silverlion;648634I live in Texas. Far away from SJG, and its pretty damn popular here. (My brother in law, who is NOT into RPG's at all, brought over a copy to play.)

I've seen arrive at game stores looking for Munchkin People who'd never played any RPGs. It has happened enough times to feel that Koltar up there isn't wrong in his view. (I've spent an inordinate time hanging out at game stores it seems.)

Not that I don't agree with your thoughts. But you realise SJG is based out of Austin. As in Austin, Texas.

Chaosium's huge D100 System book probably doesn't fit some people's idea of Basic Role Playing, either.

RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer, Elfquest, Hawkmoon, Ringworld, Worlds of Wonder (really Basic Role Playing, Magic World, Future World and Super World) -- how about that kind of line as a model?

It doesn't mean you can't also publish a bullet-stopper for the cognoscenti!

No GURPS Bestiary any more? That's a shame. I haven't actually played GURPS in ages, but I pull out that book fairly often for use with other games. In that context, it supplements (and sometimes supplants) a handbook of natural history that is not so geared to gamer needs.

Quote from: David Johansen;647147So, what about it?  Is there potential to build a modular open source 3d6 engine with a realistic tactical bent that offers a compatible touch stone for personal creations without the resistance of a controlling publisher that lacks the vision or desire to go forward?

I'd be interested in that. And I'd be willing to put in a fair amount work on the project.

My main concern would be this: I do think there are some problems with GURPS that I'd like to see fixed, and my ideas for changes might lead to some clashes with others of differing visions.

Personally, I hate GURPS 4th edition. 3rd is/was one of my favorite games specifically because the core rules included just enough info to run gritty fantasy, scifi or pulp games. You added additional setting books to get more options for whatever sort of game you wanted to play, like Magic or Autoduel. 4th reversed that model by essentially including EVERYTHING into the core rules, which is overwhelming to say the least. It's a lot easier to add stuff as needed than remove it (in my opinion). The skill list is ridiculously bloated, for instance. Also the layout...ughh. And I know it's a "universal" game, but changing the sample characters from generic fantasy to world-hopping ubermensch was dumb.

The real gripe I have with 4th is essentially that all the flavor was ripped out and what was once a good rpg became a toolkit for making an rpg. I already own HERO, I don't need another version that is even more complex.

Not a fan of GURPS, I liked HERO only marginally better...
If I had to chose an universal system these days I'd go with Dreampark for a rule-light game or Chaosium's Basic If I wanted something more realistic/rule-intensive.

Quote from: Brad;650667The real gripe I have with 4th is essentially that all the flavor was ripped out and what was once a good rpg became a toolkit for making an rpg. I already own HERO, I don't need another version that is even more complex.

That is a good point. I'll agree that GURPS 3rd did have its own definite flavor (I'm not familiar with 4th to really make statements about that, but I get the impression that it has moved in a more HERO-like direction).

Although, there are some basic differences between GURPS and HERO even as tool kits---for example, GURPS is more gritty, with more difference between human level characters, than what you'd get with HERO.

Quote from: warp9;650659I'd be interested in that. And I'd be willing to put in a fair amount work on the project.

My main concern would be this: I do think there are some problems with GURPS that I'd like to see fixed, and my ideas for changes might lead to some clashes with others of differing visions.

So what? Others would probably have changes of thier own that would be different from yours.

In open source games there is room for a whole lot of variants and different takes on things.

Quote from: warp9;650659My main concern would be this: I do think there are some problems with GURPS that I'd like to see fixed, and my ideas for changes might lead to some clashes with others of differing visions.

I'm curious what those changes might be, please elaborate.

Personally, I'm getting more and more mileage out of Savage Worlds every day.  While I prefer GURPS as a system, Savage Worlds has more going for it in terms of accessibility and speed.  PEG is also more open to licensing and expansion, so you wind up with more published material for a wide range of genres which makes my life as a GM easier.

Quote from: warp9;650683Although, there are some basic differences between GURPS and HERO even as tool kits---for example, GURPS is more gritty, with more difference between human level characters, than what you'd get with HERO.

Sure, that's true, but HERO 6th does gritty better than GURPS 4th does heroic. Neither is ideal, but GURPS still isn't the universal game promised. Looking at my books, GURPS 4th definitely moved more toward HERO scaling for attributes, whereas 3rd is much grainier for sub-heroic characters. In 3rd, you could differentiate between normal humans much more than 4th, which is similar to HERO. So, to reiterate, you're correct, but MUCH less so than before.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;650688So what? Others would probably have changes of thier own that would be different from yours.

In open source games there is room for a whole lot of variants and different takes on things.

If we can accommodate everybody's ideas, that sounds great to me. :)

Quote from: Dave;650706I'm curious what those changes might be, please elaborate.

There are a number of changes I'd like to see.

As I'm sure is true with most of the other people on this forum, I've been influenced by a whole bunch of different games. Although, for me, the ones that are most relevant to the present discussion are: GURPS, HERO, EABA, and, to some extent, Mayfair's DC Heroes System. And, if I were to remake GURPS, I'd probably end up with something which looks like a combination of those systems.

As far as GURPS goes, I like the fact that a guy with an 8 DEX performs DEX-based skills much differently than a 12 DEX guy (as opposed to HERO's 9 + stat/5 approach, where 8 DEX counts the same as a 12 DEX). I'd definitely like to stay with the idea that each point counts.

I know that GURPS 4th has moved to a "STR squared" scale for lifting (rather than the linear lift pattern in 3rd edition), however, I'd like to see GURPS go to an exponential/logarithmic scale (similar to what you see with EABA, or Mayfair's DC Heroes). Although, rather than the more extreme progression which a game like DC Heroes had, I'd either go with a doubling per 5 points, or even doubling per 10 points for a slower progression.

As I mentioned above, there are a whole bunch of other possible changes that I might (or might not) want to go with. It would take a while to detail them all, still, I'll give one more example of a change I might like to see. . . .

This idea might be fairly controversial (and taken from a more simulationist perspective), but I'd like to add in Size as a base attribute. Set a default value for Strength based on the Square-Cube Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law), and take proportional strength into account. My proposal would complicate matters a bit (which I'm sure would not be popular with people who think that GURPS is already too complicated), but it would allow for the elephant vs squirrel effect where you have bigger-slower characters/creatures vs smaller-faster ones. I can say more about the specifics of this idea, if people are curious.

Quote from: Brad;650714Sure, that's true, but HERO 6th does gritty better than GURPS 4th does heroic. Neither is ideal, but GURPS still isn't the universal game promised. Looking at my books, GURPS 4th definitely moved more toward HERO scaling for attributes, whereas 3rd is much grainier for sub-heroic characters. In 3rd, you could differentiate between normal humans much more than 4th, which is similar to HERO. So, to reiterate, you're correct, but MUCH less so than before.

Is the normal range for human attributes in GURPS different now that they have new scaling?

Okay, interesting.  I do want Strength to be simple but I want the progression to be exponential or logarithmic.

In spite of a few individuals on the SJG forums who insist no human should ever have an attribute higher than 11 officially 3 - 18 represents the full human spectrum from infants to near superhumans like Batman or Conan.  15 is generally seen as the high end of the reasonable human range.

Anyhow, the 9 + Stat / 5 is one of my objections to HERO.

My own thoughts relate more to presentation and availability at present.  The core of the game shouldn't be more than 64 pages and should cover magic and powers in that range.  The stat set should be small and be set up so finer variation like manual dextertity can be broken down from it.  Combat should be simulationist but fast.  I think stepping away from one second rounds would probably be good as it's an obstacle many people complain about.  Perhaps there should be a seconds per action rule to represent various initiative levels and super speed.  Incidentally these rules thoughts relate directly to gaining wide acceptance rather than personal preference.  There's always room for optional rules.

In terms of format and open use I'd propose that the core should be free and usable in personal projects without liscence.  A committee would hand out a trademarked line brand based on core compatability.  I don't think they should have the power to restrict objectionable material because I don't want the core game to become the committee's private project.  To succeed it would need to be open to the world but internally compatible.  That's where I feel FUZION failed.  I so wanted FUZION to do well but the reality was that it couldn't succeed because it was a liscenced product which drove away companies like Gold Rush Games and lacked internal compatability control.  To succeed the game would need to be truly open while retaining compatability between different companies and creators.

Well, I'm going to post a series of proposals.  It might be better to go to the game design forum but I'll start here.

Characters
Characters are composed of Attributes, Traits, and Skills.  Attributes are on a scale where the human average is 10 and maximum is 18 to retain compatability with the vast majority of rpgs on the market.  Each attribute has associated Traits that can modify it in specific instances.

Attributes (Sub Traits)
Physical Activity - Coordination (Agility, Dexterity)
Physical Capacity - Strength (Size, Musculature)
Physical Resilliance - Endurance (Health, Fitness)
Mental Activity - Intelligence (Memory, Reasoning)
Mental Capacity - Attitude? (Discipline, Drive)
Mental Resilliance - Willpower (Stability, Resolve)

Spiritual, psychic, and magical abilities should be Traits because they don't exist in all settings and may or may not be appropriate to various magic systems etc.

Skills are divided into broad categories, specific skills, and specialties like maneuvers.  Allowing category purchases allows for a character class type effect within the broader structure.  These could be treated as a trait.

Skill defaults are at 1/2, 1/3, and 1/4 of the skill by difficulty.  But otherwise skills build on the attributes directly.  This helps to reduce the impact of high attributes on defaults.

Skill Categories?
Knowledge
Fighting
Shooting
Science
Medicine
Social Science
Technical
Practical
Athletic
Artistic

Success Rolls 3d6 + Attribute + Skill vs Target Number
Critical Success at Target Number +10
Automatic Success on 3
Automatic Failure on 18  actually, personally I'd leave them off entirely.  Sometimes the odds are just too great.

Combat
10 second turns with potential for phased movement in seconds.
3d6 Damage Base at Strength 10 gives room for lower Strength Scores

Armor as Hit Points with limited damage resistance based on material verses material.  Damage resistance by itself is an easily broken mechanic and isn't particularly realistic as armor degrades substantially when penetrated.  Hit point mechanisms are very robust and help to avoid frusterating hopeless situations.

Quote from: David Johansen;650965Armor as Hit Points with limited damage resistance based on material verses material.  Damage resistance by itself is an easily broken mechanic and isn't particularly realistic as armor degrades substantially when penetrated.  Hit point mechanisms are very robust and help to avoid frusterating hopeless situations.

I don't mind hit points in such a system to represent bodily health/damage but inflated hit points to help represent expertise is out of place in a system featuring active defenses.

To simulate "higher level"  heroic fighters I would rather increase defensive capability by better skill, more actual defense attemps per turn, or both instead of piling on more hit points.

This means that tactical decisions such as all-out attacking still have consequences. Not getting to defend isn't much of a tactic if you are sitting there with a boatload of hit points.

I agree, hit point inflation is a bad idea.

What I'm talking about is armor having hit points.  Let's say you have a ten point suit of leather armor and a guy hits you with a steel sword for ten points of damage.  So much for your leather armor it's cut to bits.  Actually I'd probably say you have a protection value that can be absorbed from a single hit.

Speaking of damage, I'm thinking all damage rolls should be 3d6.  3d6 + Strength -10 to be precise.  For scaling I'd like to use effect multipliers.  Size would be an effect multiplier for Strength.  with an overlap in the 1-5 and 16 - 20 range to avoid edge cases.  That is to say that a 18 strength could give 3d6 +8 or (3d6 - 7) x 2.  Hmmm...need to work on the numbers a bit but that kind of thing.  The multipliers might need to be on a 20 point range not a 10 point one.

I've given skill and attribute costs some thought as well.  I'm thinking the base cost per point of a skill should be 2 points, this would get you the skill at your attribute level and every additional two points would buy a +1.  Howver to reflect difficulty and availability skills can be designated as Fundamental or Expert costing one or four points.  I'd probably say for each skill you bump up to fundamental should require another skill to be bumped down to expert.

So we'd have:

Attributes 10 points per level
Traits 5 points per level

Fundamental 1 point default = attribute
Trained 2 points default = 1/2 attribute
Expert 4 points default = 1/4 attribute

Specialization / Maneuvers 1 point

I kinda like coordination as the base target number to hit.  It gets rid of a roll and I always feel it's a bit odd to have hit someone and then have that hit taken away.  On the other hand, coordination or skill as a target number on a bell curve becomes problematic as highly skilled foes become disproportionately hard to hit.

Quote from: Brad;650667Personally, I hate GURPS 4th edition. 3rd is/was one of my favorite games specifically because the core rules included just enough info to run gritty fantasy, scifi or pulp games. You added additional setting books to get more options for whatever sort of game you wanted to play, like Magic or Autoduel. 4th reversed that model by essentially including EVERYTHING into the core rules, which is overwhelming to say the least. It's a lot easier to add stuff as needed than remove it (in my opinion). The skill list is ridiculously bloated, for instance. Also the layout...ughh. And I know it's a "universal" game, but changing the sample characters from generic fantasy to world-hopping ubermensch was dumb.

The real gripe I have with 4th is essentially that all the flavor was ripped out and what was once a good rpg became a toolkit for making an rpg. I already own HERO, I don't need another version that is even more complex.

Yeah, I sat down and compared 3rd edition to 4th edition; I was surprised by how much more user friendly 3rd edition was.  It did a certain genre of gritty fantasy or historical game (pre-history to space empire) really well.  it was always bad at high powered games and I think the changes in the current edition have only made it less friendly on the gritty scale to not fully succeed on the heroic scale.

Quote from: David Johansen;651043I agree, hit point inflation is a bad idea.

What I'm talking about is armor having hit points.  Let's say you have a ten point suit of leather armor and a guy hits you with a steel sword for ten points of damage.  So much for your leather armor it's cut to bits.  Actually I'd probably say you have a protection value that can be absorbed from a single hit.

Armor damage. Gotcha. I like for armors to have a set number of penetrations they can withstand before needing repair. For example, you could beat up someone in chainmail all day with a quarterstaff without causing undue harm to the armor.( The guy wearing it could even be killed). Use a spear against it and it will quickly start being damaged.

Thats hard to model with HP alone.

Quote from: Brad;650667The real gripe I have with 4th is essentially that all the flavor was ripped out and what was once a good rpg became a toolkit for making an rpg. I already own HERO, I don't need another version that is even more complex.

I wanted to revisit this point because I think it is kind of an important question about whether we want to go for a specific flavor. That issue is pretty basic if we are trying to replace GURPS.

Quote from: David Johansen;650949Okay, interesting.  I do want Strength to be simple but I want the progression to be exponential or logarithmic.

I'm glad we agree on that point. :)

Quote from: David Johansen;650949Combat should be simulationist but fast.  I think stepping away from one second rounds would probably be good as it's an obstacle many people complain about.  Perhaps there should be a seconds per action rule to represent various initiative levels and super speed.

I always liked the one round second thing as it seemed that many other games kept things a bit too slow in terms of how long it took normal people to get actions off. But I also like the HERO phased combat, even though I'm not sure I like the idea that it takes an average person 6 seconds to get off each separate action (for 2 actions in each 12 second period).

Quote from: David Johansen;650949In terms of format and open use I'd propose that the core should be free and usable in personal projects without liscence.  

Agreed.

Quote from: David Johansen;650963Characters are composed of Attributes, Traits, and Skills.  Attributes are on a scale where the human average is 10 and maximum is 18 to retain compatability with the vast majority of rpgs on the market.  

Agreed, I like using 10 as a base, I'm fairly used to it. I tend to feel that games like Shadowrun (average stat of 3) restrict the range of numbers a bit too much.

Quote from: David Johansen;650963Attributes (Sub Traits)
Physical Activity - Coordination (Agility, Dexterity)
Physical Capacity - Strength (Size, Musculature)

My comment here is that I've always thought there should be a connection between a character's quickness/agility and his muscular ability to propel his own body. That is the reason is why I kind of like the idea of being able to talk about how strong a character is in relation to his size (proportional strength), which in combination with good coordination, brings agility.

Quote from: David Johansen;650963Spiritual, psychic, and magical abilities should be Traits because they don't exist in all settings and may or may not be appropriate to various magic systems etc.

Agreed.

Quote from: David Johansen;650965Success Rolls 3d6 + Attribute + Skill vs Target Number
Critical Success at Target Number +10
Automatic Success on 3
Automatic Failure on 18  actually, personally I'd leave them off entirely.  Sometimes the odds are just too great.

Are we talking about roll-under or roll-over here?
In roll under normally it is  3d6 roll under value set by Skill/Attribute (with modifiers). With the 3d6 + Attribute + Skill vs Target Number, it sounds like we are rolling high (which is fine by me, BTW). It's just that then you mention auto success on a 3, if we are rolling for high, shouldn't that be an auto fail instead?  

Quote from: David Johansen;65096510 second turns with potential for phased movement in seconds.

Any special reason for going with 10 seconds as a base? I ask because 12 seconds divides evenly into more numbers, which gives better results when dividing up the turn into various numbers of phases.

Quote from: David Johansen;6509653d6 Damage Base at Strength 10 gives room for lower Strength Scores

As long as we make sure damage is dealt out in accord with the exponential progression of the game, that sounds good.

Quote from: David Johansen;650965Armor as Hit Points with limited damage resistance based on material verses material.  Damage resistance by itself is an easily broken mechanic and isn't particularly realistic as armor degrades substantially when penetrated.  Hit point mechanisms are very robust and help to avoid frusterating hopeless situations.

I'd be interested in hearing more about your ideas on armor as hit points, and how best to work that on an exponential/logarithmic scale.

Doh, yeah I was going roll high so 18 is an auto success and a 3 is an auto fail.

The big problem with hit points and an exponential scale is that it can make machineguns better anti-tank weapons than rockets.

The solution is to make the bullets to hits ratio scale exponentially too.  This can be an issue with big targets being taken down by small hordes too but again scaling multiple attacks to hits seems to be the best solution.

I generally like three stats per skill but one reason I went with coordination instead of Agility is that it makes Agility a separate thing.  A giant can still be a good shot, as can a guy in a wheel chair.  The other obvious missing stat is perception.  How many rpgs take your eyesight into account when figuring ranged attack skills?  GURPS does it for bad eyesight but somehow, good eyesight doesn't help a bit.

Personally I'm thinking Sight, Hearing, Touch, and Smell should simply be traits.  And yes, Sight improves attack rolls.

Okay, Armor, What I'm using in Incandescent and In The Shadow of Dragons is armor with an absorbtion limit that becomes DR against softer or lower tech materials.  So if you take a ten point hit and have armor with absorbtion of 5 you take five hits and the armor takes five hits.  Chainmail and other flexible armors are a bit different but how much of that beating did the chainmail absorb?  Without padding, none of it.  What it does is reduce the blow to a blunt damage type.  If you get hard enough to damage the chainmail you can bet you're screwed.

Working with multi-d6 curves doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. If you want each point of a stat on a similar range to count toward a skill default, then high-stat figures have incredible defaults if average have anything at all!

If 10=3 then 18=11; if 10=5, then 18=13; if 10=8, then 18=16; etc.

To give more room for training to tell, perhaps try:

Centered on 10: 1/3 (rounded down) -- 9-11=+3

For weight lifting, doubling per 5 points seems convenient to me (if Olympic champions can get an effective score of 21). That's just off the cuff; I don't have statistics for the spread in various populations.

For running, you might want a different scale.

One potentially interesting way to represent sharply different difficulty levels is by rolling rating or less on increasing numbers of dice (as in The Fantasy Trip). As high scores near the middle of the hump, low ones slip down the tail.

Quote from: David Johansen;651218The big problem with hit points and an exponential scale is that it can make machineguns better anti-tank weapons than rockets.

The solution is to make the bullets to hits ratio scale exponentially too.  This can be an issue with big targets being taken down by small hordes too but again scaling multiple attacks to hits seems to be the best solution.

That is basically what I'm looking for. Something where multiple smaller hits do not add together in a linear fashion.

Quote from: David Johansen;651218I generally like three stats per skill but one reason I went with coordination instead of Agility is that it makes Agility a separate thing.  A giant can still be a good shot, as can a guy in a wheel chair.  

I definitely agree that somebody who is not super-agile should still be able to be a good shot. I was thinking that stuff like Acrobatics would be based on Agility, whereas stuff like shooting would be based on coordination, and what I was considering is something like this:

Size:
Strength: (defaults based on +2/3 Size, but can then be modified up or down)
Proportional Strength: (Based on Strength - Size)
Coordination:
Agility: (based on average of Coordination and Proportional Strength)

Using 3 specific examples of warriors, lets look at Brak the Huge Barbarian, Tina the petite Warrior Princess, and Ralph, who is overweight, and not all that agile, but is still a crack shot. . . .

Brak (Huge Barbarian)
Size : 16 (assuming a +5 per doubling scale, this is more than double the size of an ordinary person)
Default Strength : 14 (each 3 points of extra Size give him +2 Str)
Strength: 18 (we assume that he bought 4 points of strength)
Proportional Strength : 12 (10 + Strength - Size)
Coordination : 12
Agility : 12 (average of Proportional Strength and Coordination)


Tina (Warrior Princess)
Size : 7 (much smaller than the average character)
Default Strength : 8 (3 points of decreased Size give her -2 Str)
Strength: 12 (we assume that she bought 4 points of strength)
Proportional Strength : 15 (10 + Strength - Size)
Coordination : 13
Agility : 14 (average of Proportional Strength and Coordination)


Ralph (who is out of shape, but still a crack shot)
Size : 13
Default Strength : 12 (each 3 points of extra Size give him +2 Str)
Strength: 9 (we assume that he sold off 3 points of strength)
Proportional Strength : 6 (10 + Strength - Size)
Coordination : 14
Agility : 10 (average of Proportional Strength and Coordination)

Quote from: David Johansen;651218The other obvious missing stat is perception.  How many rpgs take your eyesight into account when figuring ranged attack skills?  GURPS does it for bad eyesight but somehow, good eyesight doesn't help a bit.

When we talk about Coordination or Dexterity, I always tend to assume that there is a perception ingredient in that stat.

In the same way that Hand-Eye-Coordination involves an "Eye" part, I assume that Coordination involves a link between the ability to accurately perceive one's environment, and the ability to react to those perceptions.  

Quote from: David Johansen;651218Okay, Armor, What I'm using in Incandescent and In The Shadow of Dragons is armor with an absorbtion limit that becomes DR against softer or lower tech materials.  So if you take a ten point hit and have armor with absorbtion of 5 you take five hits and the armor takes five hits.  

That does make sense.

I've leaned towards a x10 per +10 in the past.  Doubling every five is what HERO does but doubling progressions get into things that aren't particularly round and handy figures like 512 and 1024.

But I'm thinking effect multipliers preserve the 3-18 success range without the resorting to absurd stat levels.  Superman could have Strength 18, Apparent Size + 60 (x1000000) for example.  It's not as simple as giving him Strength 100 but it does preserve the dice range and scale up properly.

As I said before defaults divide the stat.

So 10 = 5 and 18 = 9 at 1/2
and 10 = 3 and 18 = 4 at 1/4

I have an earlier attempt at a GURPS replacement where the stats are completely built out of trait points.  Personally it becomes too complex when dealing with cannon fodder.  I want to retain the root simplicity of the system but I agree that modelling the stats right from the start is important to keeping the system stable in the long term.

Characters
   Characters are built using character points.  Most people are built on around fifty points.  Don't be fooled by their lack of combat or adventuring abilities, most people are pretty good at quite a few things and even very good at one or two things.  Exceptional individuals like action movie heroes can be built seventy five points, in the real world they'd probably be dead anyhow but in game terms, treating them as somewhat superhuman is more fun than just assuming they have plot immunity.  A superhuman is just anyone with access to superhuman abilities.  Superheroes are superhumans built on one hundred points.

Core Characteristics
   All characters are rated for the four Core Characteristics: Agility, Perception, Strength, and Willpower.  These start with a rating of ten, which is the human average.  Core Characteristics are primarily used as the difficulty of resisted actions or used as a quantity.

Agility = 10 + Musculature + Coordination + Reflexes - Size
Intelligence = 10 + Empathy + Memory + Reason
Perception = 10 + Sight + Hearing + Smell
Strength = 10 + Endurance + Musculature + Size
Willpower = 10 + Confidence + Reason + Resolve

Perception
   The general acuity of the character' five senses and their awareness of their surroundings.  It is used as the target number for attempts to sneak up on them or pick their pockets.  The character's Sight, Hearing, and Smell traits may add to Awareness in some circumstances.  Sight is most often applicable but only functions to the front of most creatures.  Hearing is generally shorter ranged and provides little pin point accuracy but works in a three hundred and sixty degree arc.  Smell is also useful but quite dependant on familiarity with the normal smells of the surroundings and the direction of the wind.

Agility
   The combined reaction speed, sense of balance, and muscle to mass advantage that allows the character to avoid attacks.

Perception
   The general acuity of the character's senses as well as their attention to detail and awareness of their surroundings.  Perception resists attempts to sneak up on the character, pick their pockets, or trick them with slight of hand.

Strength
   Reflects the character's mass, muscular development, and bulk.  It is the target number for attempts to shove or lift them and also determines how many points of damage are needed to wound, incapacitate, and kill them.  Strength is often balanced out with reductions in the Agility trait or Speed.

Willpower
   Indicative of patience, determination, and the ability resist social and mental attacks, Willpower is used to resist fear, manipulation, and mind control.
   

Str   Mass   d6      Poly
0   1   1d      1d6   
1   1.3   1d +1      1d6+1
2   1.6   1d+2      1d8
3   2.0   1d+3      1d8+1
4   2.5   2d-1      1d10
5   3.2   2d      1d10+1
6   4.0   2d+1      1d12
7   5.0   2d+2      1d10+1d4
8   6.3   3d-2      1d10+1d6
9   7.9   3d-1      1d10+1d6+1
10   10   3d      1d10+1d8
11   13   3d+1      1d10+1d8+1
12   16   3d+2      2d10
13   19   4d-2      1d12+1d10
14   25   4d-1      1d12+1d10+1
15   31   4d      2d12
16   39   4d+1      2d12+1
17   50   4d+2      1d12+1d10+1d4
18   63   5d-2      2d12+1d4
19   79   5d-1      2d12+1d4+1
20   100   5d      2d12+1d6   

Features
   Features are free aspects of a character that are obtained by meeting a set of qualifications.  For instance a drivers or firearms license costs no points but does require skill in  driving or firearms.  Similarly a reputation modifier is a free feature relating to skills or traits and is not purchased.

Access To Equipment
   The character has all the gear and tools required in their field available to them.  They will have basic stuff like a tool kit or doctor's bag but more expensive gear will be owned by their employer.  They will be able to use the equipment on the side but may be fired if they damage the equipment or are caught using it for financial gain or criminal purposes.

Military Service:
   The character is a member of a military force.  While in the service they have access to free housing, education, and meals but are required to spend the vast majority of their time working for the military and following orders.  They can call upon their comrades in arms to help them out with in reason.

Officer
   The character is a ranking officer in a military force.  The rank is indicated by their Leader skill.  They are in command of those in their own unit and may issue minor orders to enlisted men and lower ranking officers outside of their unit.  Officers are held responsible for the actions of those in their command and are not able to call on their buddies from the unit for a hand as enlisted men are.

Notoriety
   The character and perhaps their family are well known and generally looked down upon, connected with shady dealings or even actually working.  Their name carries some clout in middle class social circles but they are not so well received by high society.

Prestige
   The character's family name is well known and held in high regard by the upper crust of society.  They can get invitations to exclusive clubs and parties as long as they don't become a stain on the family's good name.

Wealth
   Owing to trust funds or investments the character's annual income is ten times that of a well paid professional whether they choose to work or not.  Of course, illegal activities, over drawing on those static resources, and offending powerful family members or investors can strip the character of their wealth.

Traits
   Traits provide combinations of modifiers that can be used to make a character distinct and interesting.  Because they are applied as modifiers, the human average for Traits is zero.

Confidence - Social
   The aspect of the character's personality that allows them to move beyond the traditions and ideas of the masses to make their own mark on the world.

Coordination - Physical
   The character's sense of balance and gross motor skills.

Dexterity - Physical
   Fine motor control and manual manipulation ability.  Most animals have reduced Dexterity because they have no hands.
 
Empathy - Social
   The natural ability to understand the needs and desires of one's fellows and the desire to help them achieve these things, Empathy is a vital part of a character's social skills.

Endurance - Physical
   The physical health and cardiovascular fitness which allows a character to overcome fatigue and exhaustion.

Hearing - Physical
   Measures the character's ability to notice and differentiate sounds.  It Modifies the Music and Singing skills as well as Awareness when detecting sounds.  While hearing is less effective than sight for many tasks, it goes all the way around.

Memory - Mental
   Indicating how well the character can hold onto details, facts, and images, Memory is used for skills that can be learned by rote but still require study and education.

Musculature - Physical
   Measures the degree of muscular development and strength training the character has engaged in.

Reason - Mental
   Shows how well the character can manipulate information and ideas to reach rational and correct conclusions.  Reason is required for skills that focus on problem solving and logical capabilities.

Reflexes - Mental
   The ability to act instinctively without waiting to assess or consider, Reflexes are added to the character's Speed when determining the sequence and when reacting to surprise attacks.

Resolve - Mental
   A measure of the character's ability to stick with their convictions and goals and resist outside influences.  Resolve is a modifier to Willpower when resisting fear and temptation.

Sight - Physical
   The character's clarity of vision.  Acts as a modifier to artistic skill and Perception to see things.  Sight is also particularly important for making ranged attacks.

Size - Physical
   The sheer mass and bulk of the character.  Size increases the damage they inflict in combat and the amount of damage they can absorb.  Size is normally purchased with a reduction in Agility, Dexterity, and / or Reflexes that balances out its cost.

Smell - Physical
   The character's ability to differentiate between various trace gasses and particulate matter with their respiratory system.  Smell is added to Awareness when detecting odors and air borne pollutants.

Skills
   In the interest of containing the number of possible skills, most skills are discrete topics.  Many professions overlap a couple skills.  A business lawyer will need the Accountant and Lawyer skills, a scavenger will need Metal Work and Mechanic.
   
   Every skill gives a bonus to a specific learned activity.  Skills cost 5 points per factor but have -5 Untrained Penalty which must be bought off first.  The points spent directly on a skill are indicative of the level of actual training and education the character has received so any skill requirements are for the number of points spent, not Trait + Skill bonus.  Some Fundamental Skills are so endemic to a culture or so simple that they have no Untrained penalty.  Expert skills are particularly advanced and require another skill to be learned first.  One cannot learn Physicist +3 without learning Mathematician +3 first.


Athletic Field
   Acrobat (Coordination + Musculature)
   Climb (Coordination + Endurance)
   Dancer (Coordination + Endurance)
   Diver (R: Swim, Endurance + Resolve)
   Parachute (Coordination + Confidence )
   Run (Endurance + Coordination)
   Stealth (Coordination + Hearing)
   Swim (Endurance + Coordination)

Combat Field
   Armed Melee (Coordination + Dexterity)
   Bows (Dexterity + Sight)
   Firearms (Dexterity + Sight)
   Gunner (Reason + Dexterity)
   Unarmed Melee (Coordination + Dexterity)

Craft Field
   Artist (Sight + Empathy)
   Carpenter (Musculature + Dexterity)
   Metal Work (Memory + Dexterity)
   Tailor (Memory + Dexterity)
   Tanner (Memory + Constitution)
   Weaver (Memory + Dexterity)

Professional Field
   Accountant (R: Mathematics, Reason + Memory)
   Engineer (R: Mathematics, Reason + Memory)
   Lawyer (Memory + Confidence)
   Physician (Reason + Dexterity)
   Pilot (Reason + Sight)

Science Field
   Astronomer (R: Mathematics, Reason + Memory)
   Biologist (Reason + Memory)
   Chemist (R: Mathematics, Reason + Memory)
   Mathematician (Reason + Memory)
   Physicist (R: Mathematics,  Reason + Memory)
   Psychologist (Empathy + Reason)

Technical Field
   Computer (Reason + Memory)
   Demolition (Reason + Dexterity)
   Drive (Dexterity + Sight)
   Information (Reason + Memory )
   Mechanic (Reason + Dexterity)
   Medic (Reason + Dexterity)
   Navigator (Reason + Memory)
   Programmer (R: Computers, Mathematics, Memory + Reason)
   Signals (Memory + Reason)
Social Field
   Acting (Empathy + Confidence)
   Discipline (Reason + Confidence)
   Etiquette (Confidence + Reason )
   Interaction (Empathy + Confidence)
   Language (Hearing + Memory)
   Leader (Confidence + Empathy)
   Musician ( Hearing + Dexterity)
   Singer (Hearing + Endurance)

Athletic Field
   Acrobat (Coordination + Musculature)
   Training in gymnastics, skateboarding, parkour or other stunts gives the character a bonus to their Dodge rolls and allows them to attempt to avoid being injured in a fall.

   Climb (Coordination + Endurance)
   Experience climbing rocks, trees, and mountains gives the character a bonus to their movement rate through cliffs or ruins.

   Dancer (Coordination + Endurance)
   The character can move to music in a pleasing and entertaining fashion that gives them a bonus when forming a relationship with members of the opposite sex.

   Diver (R: Swim, Endurance)
   The use of self contained underwater breathing apparatus, flippers, wet suits, dry suits, masks, and weight belts to dive deep under water.
   
   Parachute (Coordination + Confidence )
   The character is trained in diving out of airplanes and landing safely using a parachute.

   Run (Endurance+)
   Running is a popular exercise because it is essentially free.  Increases the character's ground movement rate and resists fatigue.

   Stealth (Coordination + Hearing)
   A larcenous lifestyle or military ranger training gives the character a chance to move unseen between cover.  A twenty-side die roll must exceed the Intelligence of any enemies with line of sight to the character.  Suppression fire cannot be snuck through but Over Watch can be.

   Swim (Endurance + Musculature)
   Experience and time spent in the water gives the character a bonus to move through rivers and lakes.   Swim increases the character's movement rate and resists fatigue in water that is at least waist deep.

Combat Field
   Armed Melee (Coordination + Dexterity)
   For much of history close combat with swords and spears was the dominant form of warfare.  In the modern world such techniques are more likely learned in a martial arts class or historical re-enactment society.
 
   Bows (Dexterity + Sight)
   The use of bows and crossbows was an integral part of hunting and warfare.  In modern times, they have been replaced by firearms and are primarily a hobby or sport.
    
   Firearms (Dexterity + Sight)
   The character has experience and training with small arms from pistols to machine guns and receives a bonus when shooting them.

   Gunner (Reason + Dexterity)
   Training and experience with cannon, mortars, missile launchers and other heavy weapons gives the character a bonus when shooting them.

   Unarmed Melee (Coordination + Dexterity)
      Martial arts, military hand to hand classes or just a long career as a brawler give the character an advantage when fighting unarmed.

Craft Field
   Artist (Sight + Empathy)
   The practice and study of the visual arts, including drawing, painting, sculpting, and printmaking allow the character to produce appealing and evocative images and objects.  For some projects craft skills like Weaving or Metal Work may also be necessary.

   Carpenter (Musculature + Dexterity)
   The character is skilled in the use of power tools to make structures out of wood.

   Metal Work (Memory + Dexterity)
   Creating useful parts and tools can be created out of metal by welding, cutting, and bending.  Advanced automated machining also requires the Computer skill.

   Tailor (Memory + Dexterity)
   The practical skill of sewing and fitting clothing out of various fabrics.

   Tanner (Memory + Constitution)
   The practical skill of curing hides to produce leather.

   Weaver (Memory + Dexterity)
   The practical skill of producing fabric from raw fibers like wool, cotton, linen, and polyester.  Operating modern industrial looms require computer skill as well as Weaving.

Professional Field
   Accountant (R: Mathematics, Reason + Memory)
   The character's education in business and money management gives them a bonus when attempting to purchase items or find irregularities in financial records.

   Engineer (R: Mathematics, Reason + Memory)
   Being trained in physics and materials allows the character to design buildings and vehicles but not construct them.  Engineer also provides a bonus to assess the capabilities of unknown vehicles.

   Lawyer (Memory + Confidence)
   The character has studied the laws and their foundations in principle and practice and is capable of acting as a solicitor in a court of law.

   Physician (Reason + Dexterity)
   The study of physiology and pathology in the practice of treating wounds and curing diseases give the character a bonus to properly diagnose and treat medical conditions.

   Pilot (Reason + Sight)
   Having studied the physics of flight in theory and practice, the character can fly aircraft and receives a bonus to avoid crashing due to damage or obstacles.

Science Field
   Astronomer (R: Mathematics, Reason + Memory)
   The character is skilled in computing and measuring the position and motion of the planets and stars.  Even in modern times this isn't a particularly practical ability but in science fiction settings it becomes the vital skill of deep space navigation.

   Biologist (Reason + Memory)
   The study of life, ecology, and physiology, biology is a vital tool for physicians working to cure diseases and create new pharmaceuticals.

   Chemist (R: Mathematics, Reason + Memory)
   The chemist studies the elements and the ways in which they combine to make up various compounds.  Aside from lucrative jobs in the petroleum and pharmaceutical industries, Chemists can manufacture explosives from common household chemicals.

   Mathematician (Reason + Memory)
   The foundation of the sciences is the study of numbers and logic.  The mathematics skill includes statistics and calculus.

   Physicist (R: Mathematics,  Reason + Memory)
   The study of motion and structure, physics is used to design vehicles and put satellites in orbit.

   Psychologist (Empathy + Reason)
   The human mind is a complex subject in its own right.  Psychologists specialize in understanding motivation and social interactions.  A psychiatrist is a physician with the psychology skill.

Technical Field
   Computer (Reason + Memory)
   The digital processing machine becomes more ubiquitous and indispensable as technology marches forward.  In the modern age computers are found in everything from automobiles to coffee makers.  This skill is used to operate a general purpose computer, specialized units like those in coffee makers and automobiles are programmed at the factory and are beyond the scope of this skill.

   Demolition (Reason + Dexterity)
   Specialized training with explosives allows the character to plant and disarm explosives.

   Drive (Dexterity + Sight)
   Time and experience behind the wheel give the character a bonus to avoid collisions and retain control of ground vehicles the are driving.   

   Information (Reason + Memory )
   The character is experienced in data management, storage and retrieval.  Whether this is in a library, filing cabinet, or computer database.

   Mechanic (Reason + Dexterity)
   Training in the practical repair and maintenance of motor vehicles gives a bonus to fix damaged vehicle systems.

   Medic (Reason + Dexterity)
   Training in first aid and trauma relief give the character a bonus to stabilize and even revive wounded  comrades.

   Navigator (Reason + Memory)
   The character can find their way around without getting lost.

   Programmer (R: Computers, Mathematics, Memory + Reason)
   The character has studied the workings of computers and is able to develop and disassemble software, hack security systems and generally make non-programmers feel inadequate and ignorant.

   Signals (Memory + Reason)
   The character is skilled in the operation of advanced communications and sensor devices ranging from cell phones to radar satellites.
 
Social Field
   Acting (Empathy + Confidence)
   The character can memorize lines, imitate others, and keep a straight face in the face of absurdly bad writing.
   
   Discipline (Reason + Confidence)
   Military training gives the character the tools to face certain death and get the job done.

   Etiquette (Confidence + Reason )
   The character has learned the social conventions of high society and is well versed in terms of address, appropriate attire, and dining table manners.

   Interaction (Empathy + Confidence)
   The character is easy to get along with and good with people.

   Language (Hearing + Memory)
   The foundation of communication is a consistent system of terms and structures.  Each language is a separate skill.  Low ratings generally indicate an illiterate individual.

   Leader (Confidence + Empathy)
   The character knows how to motivate and inspire their fellow men and stay ahead of the mob.

   Musician ( Hearing + Dexterity)
   The character can read music and play musical instruments.

   Singer (Hearing + Endurance)
   The character can sing in a pleasing fashion.

Quote from: Phillip;651267For weight lifting, doubling per 5 points seems convenient to me (if Olympic champions can get an effective score of 21). That's just off the cuff; I don't have statistics for the spread in various populations.

Yes, I totally agree. IMO the +5=X2 is a good way to go.

Quote from: Phillip;651267For running, you might want a different scale.

I'd use the same scale for that, but I assume that we are talking about Kinetic Energy (meaning damage), which equates to what we'd see from doubling strength).

But here is the thing Kinetic Energy does not directly equate to velocity.

KE = 1/2 Mass X Velocity Squared

This means that each time we double velocity we quadruple the KE. But we don't want to quadruple the KE for each +5 points.

So I'd do the progression like this:

+5 = 2X KE
+10 = 4X KE and 2 X Velocity
+15 = 8X KE
+20 = 16X KE and 4X velocity

So +10 point may quadruple what you can lift, and quadruple the damage you can do, but it would only double your velocity. I'd assume that an average person could run about 12 mph, and the max sprint would be about 24 mph (which is not perfect, but comes pretty close to real world stats).

Quote from: David Johansen;651271I've leaned towards a x10 per +10 in the past.  Doubling every five is what HERO does but doubling progressions get into things that aren't particularly round and handy figures like 512 and 1024.

That is true. But 1024 is not far from 1000, especially for the figures that we are using for the game (2% off is fine for game numbers IMO). Therefore I tend to assume the following type of progression which you can see repeats nicely. . . .

1
2
4
8
16
32
64
128
256
512
1 thousand
2 thousand
4 thousand
8 thousand
16 thousand
32 thousand
64 thousand
128 thousand
256 thousand
512 thousand
1 million
2 million
4 million
8 million
16 million
32 million
64 million
128 million
256 million
512 million
1 billion (and the pattern repeats with each ineration going up by factors of 10 to the 3rd power)

Quote from: David Johansen;651272I have an earlier attempt at a GURPS replacement where the stats are completely built out of trait points.

I'll look through it a bit more (there is a lot there), but just off the cuff, I really like what you did with building up the stats from the various traits! :)

The awkwardness of 512 lbs is small potatoes compared with most of the world needing to translate it into 232.239 kg!

(Actually I was thinking more along the lines of 100, 200, 400 in the normal human range, or close enough to 45, 90, 180 kg.)

Anyway, there are 10 kinds of people in the world, the binary-numerate kind who make up a significant overlap with GURPS-ish gamers, and the rest.

The problem being that I'd like to broaden the overlap in the core rules.  I do lean towards metric over imperial.  Actually, in my fantasy games I use paces.  For a science fiction game I once wrote a treatise on measurement systems based on gaming standards.  Hence spaces, rounds, and such as the concrete units of measure in the setting.  People felt it was too much and off putting.  Never the less, on paper metric and decimal math are easier to use than fractions.  For everything else it's imperial.  What I'd like to avoid is the messy math for things like orbits and interplanetary travel that arise from using Imperial measures.

But yes, I'll admit that the x 10 per +10 is a nitpicky thing but it gives a nice smooth scale up.  Galactic Adventures, the first rpg I really completed designing used a x 10 per +50 scale and had a massive chart you had to use to convert real world figures to game statistics.  The more recent evolution of it uses fourth roots as a cleaner and simpler alternative.

Quote from: David Johansen;651284But yes, I'll admit that the x 10 per +10 is a nitpicky thing but it gives a nice smooth scale up.

Yes, it has some advantages, although IMO it represents a fairly fast increase. Sometimes I even think that the +5 = X2 approach is a bit too steep.

In the past, I've considered going with a +10 = X2 approach for a slower rate of increase. That would give a scale that would match the linear progression of GURPS 3rd edition at stats of 10 and 20, but would still reach extreme values as the stats continue on up to higher numbers.

Late to the conversation, but I strongly recommend GenreDiversion3 as a GURPS replacement.

I just wish PIG would churn out some supplements for this game. More genre-specific pursuits, etc, a tactical grid game, all that stuff.

There is always the proliferation of standards issue.  There are a lot of generic rulesets available on-line.  One feature that we're specifically looking for is an open source with oversight approach where the SRD is held in trust but not actually owned or controlled by an individual or company.

At some point up thread I mentioned that I didn't want to impose restrictions based on taste or morality on authors.  It's not that I don't have standards of taste or morality but respecting artistic freedom is pretty high among them.  However I do think it would be good for the committee to impose a rating on products that get the brand compatible seal of approval.  One of them would have to be WTF???.

Anyhow, a topic close to my heart:

Vehicle Design

While I want to preserve the cube square law, surface area based armor, power to mass ratio based acceleration and drag based top speeds, I'd also like to be more forgiving and less fiddly than GURPS Vehicles.  It always bothered me that you couldn't do the ships from The Mote In God's Eye until they added super thrusters.

Galactic Adventures and Galaxies in Shadow use TL x Efficiency x Mass and have fuel consumption of Mass x Efficiency Squared / TL.  The rules are agnostic about the actual way this is achieved because the effects in various settings vary so widely.  Incandescent just uses mass and assumes you can get a gee hour out of a ten percent of mass rocket unit which includes fuel.  Then you can add "advances" which double output or efficiency.

I think we'd want more detail than that for a GURPS Vehicles replacement but I think we can skip stuff like the five bucks per seatbelt.  Actually, in my games things like sensors and seats are considered to be features of the structure and only need to have volume allowed for.  The passenger's weight is then just part of the load.  I do think we need to provide an efficiency range for power plants to give the system some wiggle room.  The endless redesign to get performance in GURPS Vehicles was annoying.  I also lean towards a flat mass x cost multiplier for the initial vehicle purchase and much higher prices for parts.

Quote from: David Johansen;651656Anyhow, a topic close to my heart:

Vehicle Design

While I want to preserve the cube square law, surface area based armor, power to mass ratio based acceleration and drag based top speeds, I'd also like to be more forgiving and less fiddly than GURPS Vehicles.  It always bothered me that you couldn't do the ships from The Mote In God's Eye until they added super thrusters.

Galactic Adventures and Galaxies in Shadow use TL x Efficiency x Mass and have fuel consumption of Mass x Efficiency Squared / TL.  The rules are agnostic about the actual way this is achieved because the effects in various settings vary so widely.  Incandescent just uses mass and assumes you can get a gee hour out of a ten percent of mass rocket unit which includes fuel.  Then you can add "advances" which double output or efficiency.

I think we'd want more detail than that for a GURPS Vehicles replacement but I think we can skip stuff like the five bucks per seatbelt.  Actually, in my games things like sensors and seats are considered to be features of the structure and only need to have volume allowed for.  The passenger's weight is then just part of the load.  I do think we need to provide an efficiency range for power plants to give the system some wiggle room.  The endless redesign to get performance in GURPS Vehicles was annoying.  I also lean towards a flat mass x cost multiplier for the initial vehicle purchase and much higher prices for parts.

Sounds good.

I'll admit that I haven't really bothered too much with the specifics of vehicle design, but I'm glad that somebody is thinking about it.

Quote from: warp9;650889As I'm sure is true with most of the other people on this forum, I've been influenced by a whole bunch of different games. Although, for me, the ones that are most relevant to the present discussion are: GURPS, HERO, EABA, and, to some extent, Mayfair's DC Heroes System. And, if I were to remake GURPS, I'd probably end up with something which looks like a combination of those systems.

As far as GURPS goes, I like the fact that a guy with an 8 DEX performs DEX-based skills much differently than a 12 DEX guy (as opposed to HERO's 9 + stat/5 approach, where 8 DEX counts the same as a 12 DEX). I'd definitely like to stay with the idea that each point counts.

I know that GURPS 4th has moved to a "STR squared" scale for lifting (rather than the linear lift pattern in 3rd edition), however, I'd like to see GURPS go to an exponential/logarithmic scale (similar to what you see with EABA, or Mayfair's DC Heroes).

EABA V2 has just been released. I held off buying it as I knew the new version was coming soon. It looks interesting; I'm continually on the hunt for good generic systems and despite having invested thousands of $ in GURPS I find it just too clunky these days. The attraction of a 1-book system is undeniable.

Quote from: David Johansen;651656Anyhow, a topic close to my heart:

Vehicle Design

While I want to preserve the cube square law, surface area based armor, power to mass ratio based acceleration and drag based top speeds, I'd also like to be more forgiving and less fiddly than GURPS Vehicles.  It always bothered me that you couldn't do the ships from The Mote In God's Eye until they added super thrusters.

You can be fiddle as you want as long as you use the bare to the bones  system as a basis for a second modular system. Just to resist the urge to hand wave the modules. That why I think GURPS Spaceships is pure genius.

Quote from: dbm;654822EABA V2 has just been released. I held off buying it as I knew the new version was coming soon. It looks interesting; I'm continually on the hunt for good generic systems and despite having invested thousands of $ in GURPS I find it just too clunky these days. The attraction of a 1-book system is undeniable.

EABA is a pretty cool system.

Quote from: David Johansen;650949My own thoughts relate more to presentation and availability at present.  The core of the game shouldn't be more than 64 pages and should cover magic and powers in that range. The stat set should be small and be set up so finer variation like manual dextertity can be broken down from it.  Combat should be simulationist but fast.  I think stepping away from one second rounds would probably be good as it's an obstacle many people complain about.  Perhaps there should be a seconds per action rule to represent various initiative levels and super speed.  Incidentally these rules thoughts relate directly to gaining wide acceptance rather than personal preference.  There's always room for optional rules.

I believe that you are correct about the optional rules; a system can be designed with quite a bit of flexibility.

Of course, any system can be tweaked quite a bit (with optional rules or house rules). I'd just hope that I wouldn't have to tweak too much to get where I want to be.

GURPS Zombies will probably be that last book I buy from SJGames, since they've slowed heavily in producing new GURPS material.

But SJGames is still selling PDFs of nearly every book.  NEX-GEN kids these days think paper books are evil and so they i-love the PDFs.  So I don't see how that equates to dropping their support for GURPS.

Quote from: dbm;654822EABA V2 has just been released. I held off buying it as I knew the new version was coming soon. It looks interesting; I'm continually on the hunt for good generic systems and despite having invested thousands of $ in GURPS I find it just too clunky these days. The attraction of a 1-book system is undeniable.

Thanks for posting this; purchased the PDF this morning. The new setting, Aethos, looks pretty interesting as well.