Quote from: Brad on April 01, 2024, 08:32:10 PM
Suck it up and run AD&D. Use Unearthed Arcana if you want, just be sure that anyone who rolls up a cavalier-Paladin is required to lay the smacketh down on heretics.

In all sincerity, C&C is basically just the lazy man's version of AD&D and it works fine in actual play. Just be sure you're not making the players roll for every fucking thing under the sun and you'll be fine.

I have the .pdfs (I will eventually get the print versions) of AD&D 2nd edition and I am playing it right now and I am enjoying it.  That might be an option.

Quote from: Crusader X on March 31, 2024, 07:53:57 PM
Between C&C and Pathfinder, I would choose C&C, though I would probably houserule the SIEGE Engine a bit.

I have heard a few people talk about the engine and needing to house rule it.   What about it needs house ruling?  My desire is to play a game that does what I need it to do.  To be honest, if I have to do the designers job by fixing what they screwed up, that's not what I am looking for.

Quote from: Crusader X on March 31, 2024, 07:53:57 PMGames like Olde Swords Reign and Shadowdark also seem like good replacements for 5e.  Have you considered those at all?

I haven't even heard of Olde Swords Reign before so I will check it out.  Looked at ShadowDark and truthfully, it doesn't impress me.

Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2024, 09:38:07 PM
To me there's not even a question here as I can't fathom why anyone would want the bloat of Mathfinder.  C&C just runs a Hell of a lot smoother and it's super easy to bolt pretty much anything onto it.  There are lots of optional rules in the Castle Keeper's Guide and if your players are into extra classes and spells, there are tons out there in the various official books as well as fan-made that covers just about anything.  As others have noted and I've also done, you can run any AD&D 1e or 2e module on the fly with C&C.  Plus, there's all that Gygax content forthcoming from them.  Finally, the people who run the company are cool guys, veterans, and plain old fashioned gamers, not SJWs trying to push "The Message."

Incidentally, there's a Sword & Sorcery take on C&C called "Swords & Chaos" that adds stuff from DCC and a couple other influences if your players like that genre.  I was a bit disappointed in the execution of this game, but it exists FWIW.

I was leaning more towards C&C but people have noted that with the engine (Seige engine) you need to do house ruling but people are never clear about what needs to be house ruled so I am a bit confused.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 31, 2024, 09:42:31 PM
I get that. Unlike a lot of OSR people, I completely understand why a person coming from newer systems might look at the player options presented in something like OSE and find them unappealing.

Yes, it's too bad because there are plenty of options in OSE (I use basic and Advance) and a lot of fun.  But some people just love the bloat of options from the newer games.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 31, 2024, 09:42:31 PMIt sounds like you'd be looking for a kind of "middleweight" system, which has something of the customizability and fleshed-out classes of 3rd through 5th editions, without the headache-inducing quantity of powers/feats etc. and the potential for characters getting overpowered, but also not so stripped down as OSE and related games. Sadly, I don't know that there is a great one, at least not without stepping out of the D&D framework entirely (like Savage Worlds). If I knew one it'd probably be what I played. Shadow of the Demon Lord definitely sits in that middle ground, but I have my reservations about both the system and the author. Fantasy Age might be it, but I've only skimmed the book, so I couldn't say. Another one I've only given a cursory look at that might fit the bill is Heroes of Adventure. I don't know it well enough to recommend or not, but it is at least free (https://nameless-designer.itch.io/heroes-of-adventure).

I will give Fantasy Age a look.

Quote from: tenbones on April 01, 2024, 01:17:38 PM
I didn't want to be the guy that brought up Savage Worlds (heh) but since that door has been cracked...

This response has me genuinely curious. Of all the genres of RPG's that Savage Worlds handles, Fantasy is the last one that I'd expect someone to mention that has used Savage Worlds. If you don't mind talking about it - why?

I love Savage Worlds, I do.  I have run it for many different settings and genres.  I just cannot see Savage Worlds working well with a fantasy settings.

Quote from: The Spaniard on April 01, 2024, 04:12:46 PM
C&C is my go to game.  Not a Pathfinder fan.

Yeah, Pathfinder was an option but not one I really wanted to go with.  But I just wanted to put out choices that my group might accept.

Quote from: Spinachcat on April 02, 2024, 03:37:56 AM
Go back to the beginning: OD&D, 1974 edition

Here's a fun read:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx-230B8tqxvMmFrNGJFU3hGNnM/edit?resourcekey=0-gJx1QCEZkqNQDCRrGrvheA

It wouldn't have enough options for my group.  I ran OSE and that has more options that the original D&D and that wasn't enough for my group.

Quote from: Opaopajr on April 02, 2024, 09:31:36 AM
Come to Castles & Crusades for the simplicity, stay for the typos... 

Thanks for the input.  Are the typos that bad?

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 02, 2024, 11:06:20 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr on April 02, 2024, 09:31:36 AM
Come to Castles & Crusades for the simplicity, stay for the typos... 

Thanks for the input.  Are the typos that bad?

That's a normative question. If, instead, you want to know if there are lots of typos that have carried over more than eight editions, then yes, they are "bad". But hey, part of the charm of C&C is embracing the typos and grammar issues because it persists and persists.

RE: house-ruling C&C, in my experience playing it on and off for over 10 years, it's mind-numbingly simple to change whatever you want, and the system works fine as-is. Typically, someone will bring up the SIEGE engine being sub-optimal, or the way saves are handled (my biggest gripe), but if you actually PLAY the game instead of getting into the weeds of mechanical analysis, you can run AD&D-style combats super fast and have a decent skill-check system that covers 99% of what you'd need in a fantasy game. Just play it like it's in the book and not worry about it.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 02, 2024, 10:55:07 AM
I love Savage Worlds, I do.  I have run it for many different settings and genres.  I just cannot see Savage Worlds working well with a fantasy settings.

Well by all means check out my proselytizing stylings starting here.

I can literally pick up *ANY* d20 module of any edition and run it in Savage Worlds. I actually wouldn't even recommend Savage Pathfinder *unless* you really want to simulate "Classes". Otherwise I'd go with the Savage Worlds Core + Fantasy Companion and you're pretty much set.

I'd get the Savage Pathfinder Bestiary too just because between the Core, FCompanion and SF Bestiary - you have far more monsters statted than you'd need for most campaigns.

So no consideration for Fantasy Craft? It's *not* a light system, but if you're even considering Pathfinder of *any* iteration, you're doing yourself an intense disservice by passing up Fantasy Craft. It's what 3e aspired to be. And while that might leave a bad taste in people's mouths, Pathfinder is Fantasy Craft's retarded neighbor by design comparison. Except in this case Pathfinder got a full ad-campaign by Sally Struthers and Sarah McLachlan and Fantasy Craft got Red-Headed Step-child status and sent to live in a trailerpark on the edge of the desert.

She's still out there, I hear. That hot red-head. She's waiting...

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 02, 2024, 10:37:06 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 31, 2024, 09:42:31 PM
I get that. Unlike a lot of OSR people, I completely understand why a person coming from newer systems might look at the player options presented in something like OSE and find them unappealing.

Yes, it's too bad because there are plenty of options in OSE (I use basic and Advance) and a lot of fun.  But some people just love the bloat of options from the newer games.

Eh, like I said, I sympathize with it to an extent. For a lot of players a major appeal of cracking open a new RPG book is thinking "what cool thing can I play in this game?", and a major appeal when playing is looking forward to making decisions when leveling up. The OSE classes are purposefully light on flavor, and outside of loot, nearly all the character progression is locked in once you choose your class. I understand why it's done that way, but I also understand how it can be deflating for a player. Not everyone likes to have to head-canon everything that makes their character unique or interesting.

Quote from: tenbones on April 02, 2024, 12:22:24 PM
She's still out there, I hear. That hot red-head. She's waiting...

   Something I've been considering with regard to Fantasy Craft: How well does it work for games without PC spellcasting? (Note that I don't say 'without magic', but that magic should be wrapped up in items, locations, creatures, NPCs, et al.)

Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2024, 11:21:21 AM
RE: house-ruling C&C, in my experience playing it on and off for over 10 years, it's mind-numbingly simple to change whatever you want, and the system works fine as-is. Typically, someone will bring up the SIEGE engine being sub-optimal, or the way saves are handled (my biggest gripe), but if you actually PLAY the game instead of getting into the weeds of mechanical analysis, you can run AD&D-style combats super fast and have a decent skill-check system that covers 99% of what you'd need in a fantasy game. Just play it like it's in the book and not worry about it.

Ok thank you for the clarification. 

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 02, 2024, 01:06:08 PM

Quote from: tenbones on April 02, 2024, 12:22:24 PM
She's still out there, I hear. That hot red-head. She's waiting...

   Something I've been considering with regard to Fantasy Craft: How well does it work for games without PC spellcasting? (Note that I don't say 'without magic', but that magic should be wrapped up in items, locations, creatures, NPCs, et al.)

LOL I'd argue *any* fantasy game works better this way if everyone is on board with it. Some people just *have* to be the special snowflakes that have exception-based rules for themselves that can only be described as "magic".

In Fantasy Craft it works fine - since it's a toolkit. Just adjust it as needed class-wise to the conceits of your setting and you're good to go.

They're very different games. PF2E is a solid system for GMs and players that want rules for everything and fairly tight power gaming mechanics that are all baked in. Typically when I've played this game players are hell bent on squeezing every last +1 from the mechanics in each fight.

C&C is way more laid back and loose of a game. I feel like some of the mechanics are "meh", but it's an easy game to modify and has a solid user base. Their discord is great with weekly open games and there are PDFs of the books available for free to get you started. The game is very low friction to get into.