If you think 5e is too bloated, I'd be kind of surprised if you liked PF2e better.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 31, 2024, 06:09:34 PM
If simplicity is the priority, then it's no contest. Any OSR game is going to be much simpler than Pathfinder. If you want something with more class options than C&C, I'd say Fantastic Heroes and Witchery. I think that has the most class options of the major OSR games. Either that or ACKS. If you want something with more progression options for a single character, you're probably looking for Shadow of the Demon Lord or maybe Fantasy Age.

Well I am into Old School Essentials but I am not sure if I could sell it to this group.  I ran a one shot with them and they had fun, but I am not sure if that is what they are going for.

Quote from: Almost_Useless on March 31, 2024, 06:13:26 PM
If you think 5e is too bloated, I'd be kind of surprised if you liked PF2e better.

Yeah, I am more leaning towards Castles and Crusades but I wanted to hear people's opinions.

Between C&C and Pathfinder, I would choose C&C, though I would probably houserule the SIEGE Engine a bit.

Games like Olde Swords Reign and Shadowdark also seem like good replacements for 5e.  Have you considered those at all?

This is kind of like asking which you would prefer, wedding cake, or a cheeseburger. C&C has that AD&D "feel" but is also, IMO, kind of unfocused, and I ended up liquidating most of my stuff. It just doesn't scratch the itch for me. On the other hand, PF2 comes loaded with a lot of complexity. I'm actually a recent convert, because the Remastered version was appealing enough to me to make the leap. Neither one is something I would consider a very straightforward replacement for a game that will do dungeons, with some character customization, and some decent rules for world-building.  So to answer the question directly, if you want to "skip to the good part" and aren't actually that worried much about the system, C&C makes sense. If you just want to plug-and-play, and have a fairly rich experience, Pathfinder 2e will do that within certain parameters.

But if you are looking for something different, I think it's time to think about wider experiences. Savage Worlds is good for swashbuckling, and would probably be the ideal system to run a D&D Honor Among Thieves inspired campaign. GURPS is good for the nitty gritty, and if you want to focus on heroic but not superpowered adventurers. Fantasy Hero is probably one of my top picks for world-building. True20 does modern literary fantasy very well. Warhammer has some tactical aspects I like, but is also pretty streamlined in play, gritty, and well-written. Everyone should try Runequest at least once; it's just a very transparent percentile based system with a bit of bite and generally well-worked magic rules.

To me there's not even a question here as I can't fathom why anyone would want the bloat of Mathfinder.  C&C just runs a Hell of a lot smoother and it's super easy to bolt pretty much anything onto it.  There are lots of optional rules in the Castle Keeper's Guide and if your players are into extra classes and spells, there are tons out there in the various official books as well as fan-made that covers just about anything.  As others have noted and I've also done, you can run any AD&D 1e or 2e module on the fly with C&C.  Plus, there's all that Gygax content forthcoming from them.  Finally, the people who run the company are cool guys, veterans, and plain old fashioned gamers, not SJWs trying to push "The Message."

Incidentally, there's a Sword & Sorcery take on C&C called "Swords & Chaos" that adds stuff from DCC and a couple other influences if your players like that genre.  I was a bit disappointed in the execution of this game, but it exists FWIW.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 31, 2024, 07:10:03 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 31, 2024, 06:09:34 PM
If simplicity is the priority, then it's no contest. Any OSR game is going to be much simpler than Pathfinder. If you want something with more class options than C&C, I'd say Fantastic Heroes and Witchery. I think that has the most class options of the major OSR games. Either that or ACKS. If you want something with more progression options for a single character, you're probably looking for Shadow of the Demon Lord or maybe Fantasy Age.

Well I am into Old School Essentials but I am not sure if I could sell it to this group.  I ran a one shot with them and they had fun, but I am not sure if that is what they are going for.

I get that. Unlike a lot of OSR people, I completely understand why a person coming from newer systems might look at the player options presented in something like OSE and find them unappealing.

It sounds like you'd be looking for a kind of "middleweight" system, which has something of the customizability and fleshed-out classes of 3rd through 5th editions, without the headache-inducing quantity of powers/feats etc. and the potential for characters getting overpowered, but also not so stripped down as OSE and related games. Sadly, I don't know that there is a great one, at least not without stepping out of the D&D framework entirely (like Savage Worlds). If I knew one it'd probably be what I played. Shadow of the Demon Lord definitely sits in that middle ground, but I have my reservations about both the system and the author. Fantasy Age might be it, but I've only skimmed the book, so I couldn't say. Another one I've only given a cursory look at that might fit the bill is Heroes of Adventure. I don't know it well enough to recommend or not, but it is at least free (https://nameless-designer.itch.io/heroes-of-adventure).

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 31, 2024, 05:30:01 PM

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 31, 2024, 03:22:20 PM
My go to for replacing 5E is Savage Worlds Pathfinder but I doubt that'd be what you're looking for. I actually think Basic Role Playing by Chaosium is a good alternative with the right amount of crunch vs roleplay. Very versatile  However Castles & Crusades IS very good too. That or BECMI if you want to get into running castles and other domains.

I am a fan of Savage Worlds but just for everything but Fantasy.  Something about SW doesn't come across to me as fun running a fantasy setting.

I didn't want to be the guy that brought up Savage Worlds (heh) but since that door has been cracked...

This response has me genuinely curious. Of all the genres of RPG's that Savage Worlds handles, Fantasy is the last one that I'd expect someone to mention that has used Savage Worlds. If you don't mind talking about it - why?

I'd go C&C. Here are my impressions:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/09/a-few-thought-on-castles-crusades.html

Like everyone, I think it is a great game but the SIEGE engine is not that great for me.

Instead of "primes" I might let the PCs improve some abilities, and probably add some feats.

You say " I want a system with ease and plenty of options for the players without the bloat of 5e."

Ease is C&C.

Plenty of options is PF 2, but it has at least as much bloat as 5e, maybe more if you play 5e basic (no feats etc.)

An alternative would be running something like BFRPG with more options (I have a book on OSR feats, but there are OSR games that come with feats - LFG and WWN come to mind).

C&C is my go to game.  Not a Pathfinder fan.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 31, 2024, 01:57:22 PM
I have been running a 5e game but I have gotten to a point where I really hate running it.  It is a broken and bloated system and it basically feels like I am running a table top video game, not Dungeons and Dragons.

Two systems that I have been considering are Pathfinder 2nd edition and Castles and Crusades.

Both systems look really good and I am kind of leaning towards C&C so that I can run the Gary Gygax content but I am unsure which system to go with.  I want a system with ease and plenty of options for the players without the bloat of 5e.

Which system should I go with?

The best and most prolific options are the ones in your imagination that come out at the table, in real time, organically, through play.  I recommend a rules-light retro-clone like Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, Dungeon Crawl Classics, or my own (free) Advanced Crimson Dragon Slayer.

For light with options, I'd strongly recommend Dragonbane from Free League. C&C doesn't have options and PF2e is not light. 

Suck it up and run AD&D. Use Unearthed Arcana if you want, just be sure that anyone who rolls up a cavalier-Paladin is required to lay the smacketh down on heretics.

In all sincerity, C&C is basically just the lazy man's version of AD&D and it works fine in actual play. Just be sure you're not making the players roll for every fucking thing under the sun and you'll be fine.

Go back to the beginning: OD&D, 1974 edition

Here's a fun read:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx-230B8tqxvMmFrNGJFU3hGNnM/edit?resourcekey=0-gJx1QCEZkqNQDCRrGrvheA

  Come to Castles & Crusades for the simplicity, stay for the typos...