Anyone have favorite books from Guardians of Order?
I liked their corebooks. I feel their sourcebooks were mostly poor, though. I never liked their fan guides.
GoO self destructed amidst much drama, but when I look back at their output I see constant improvement and attempts to address issues fans brought up. Of course, as I think back, there were other problems.
I also see a company that was very erratic. They were all over the map. There were three editions of BESM in what, five years? Then there was a d20 adaptation of BESM. Then there was Silver Age Sentinels in both Tri Stat and d20 flavors. How about Tekumel and Game of Thrones in there too? I think they planned to do an Amber game (Pundit might remember). Silver Age Sentinels had a ton of supplements pooped out along with the game, even though the impression I've always had is the game belly flopped on launch. Then there was Slayers, Dominion Tank Police, and all those Fan Guides. All of this was compacted into a very short period of time. They had all these different games which never had any focus beyond a couple of months. They had this huge catalog to rival major publisher release schedules even though they were a small outfit.
There were also the Stingy Gamer Editions of a few games. BESMd20 and Silver Age Sentinels d20 had explicitly labeled versions under this banner. The Tri-Stat system wasn't explicitly labeled a Stingy Gamer Edition game, but it had an inexpensive core rules only release separate from SAS which was effectively the same type of thing. I remember thinking these were a really cool idea at the time. They were RPG books for under $10 with all the text content, just no art. Looking back, they were an iffy idea which I don't think made a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things.
There was the Magnum Opus imprint. I don't remember how it was supposed to work. This is also the area where most creators got screwed by the GoO implosion. I only have two Magnum Opus games. The first is Dreaming Cities, which is just the basic Tri Stat rules with some (IMO) bland urban fantasy settings without sufficient mechanical examples to be useful. The second is Everstone: Blood Legacy, which uses the anime d20 ruleset as a base to construct what I think is a really cool Rifts inspired setting. It's sad that Everstone died in the smouldering ruins of GoO, because I think it had some potential.
I loved Silver Age Sentinels and I've greatly enjoyed Tri-Stat.
I would be happy to see Tri-Stat reborn, but perhaps under new ownership.
I can't help but think of Mark being a cautionary tale about biting off too much in the game industry. He started with a lot of enthusiasm, and when I was in the business, I had the good fortune to have some arrangements with him that were great for both of us. But, I also had the good fortune to not be owed any money by him during GOO's crash. I always feel that it's a shame how things went bad.
All that being said, I liked BESM, and ran some fun game sessions using it, and even a short campaign in Uresia. Of course, the most memorable gaming was probably a couple of silly sessions of the Sailor Moon game - and, you know, anything you look back on 20 years later with a big smile was time well spent.
I thought the Guardians of Order were Green Lantern's bosses.
Ran some fun games of Slayers with BESM and loved the system. I also used Dominion Tank Police and Tenchi Muyo.
Uresia - Grave of Heaven was one of the best d20 settings ever created. I have a lot of love for that one.
To this day I think the Tenchi RPG & Sourcebook sets the standard for any RPG adaptation of an IP source.
BESM 2nd Edition was my go-to system around the turn of the century. Still think its a great system, great presentation.
I miss Guardians of Order. I recall there was some story behind their demise, but it was years ago that I read up on it.
Quote from: TristramEvans;825423BESM 2nd Edition was my go-to system around the turn of the century. Still think its a great system, great presentation.
Something I remember about BESM2:
I bought the original color edition. It's a pretty book, but one thing that really irritated me was all the space wasted on the charts which showed simple and intuitive progressions. Highly Skilled is a perfect example of this. It's a simple 10 skill points per rank, but there's also this chart which does nothing more than show what the Rank times 10 is. There were quite a few charts like that in the book. I felt that was a waste of space which could have been used for content or reducing page count.
Of course, since I was a bigger wanker then than I am now, I bitched about this on TBP. I recall Mark saw this and commented on it. I don't think anyone else bitched about the charts over there other than me.
I also moaned about the color and paper stock and the extra unnecessary premium I felt it added to the book. Because I bitched and moaned about that type of thing back then.
Then, a few months later, GoO was printing a new version of BESM2e, the Revised version. It excised all those simple mathematical charts and was in b&w. I don't know if it was because of my comments, but what I took away from it is that GoO felt it was important to address concerns like mine.
BESM3e was bittersweet. The introduction basically says that BESM started as the game Mark wanted, and BESM3 was the game the fans wanted. GoO delivered what the fans asked for, and went out of business at least partially because of that.
I take away a very dark statement about the RPG biz because of that.
I remembered hearing at they would do something with Roger Zelazny's Amber, or the Amber Diceless system - one or the other or both, but it never came to anything. I'd love to hear the rest of that story.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: jeff37923;825422Uresia - Grave of Heaven was one of the best d20 settings ever created. I have a lot of love for that one.
It's fantastic, I agree. I have two copies of the BESM version of Uresia.
S. John Ross produced a systemless version available as pdf or print via Lulu: http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/uresia.htm.
I had a good time with Guardians of Order - somehow I got on their lists as a playtester, which meant that a) I got sent offers to playtest books (And I'm listed as a Playtester in a bunch of them) and b) they sent me one of everything they printed. (Which was a savings on my part, let me tell you.) They eventually had to cut out sending me free stuff, but that was fine - I more than got my money's worth out of them. I even got to write a module for SAS, which was a lot of fun.
I've had fun in the past playing BESM and Sailor Moon at cons. (I ran some games for the kids section of the gaming conventions, a long ways back. It was fun.)
Quote from: jcfiala;825595S. John Ross produced a systemless version available as pdf or print via Lulu: http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/uresia.htm.
I did not know this. Thank you! I now must go and spend my money.
Quote from: jcfiala;825595S. John Ross produced a systemless version available as pdf or print via Lulu: http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/uresia.htm.
He was really enthusiastic about that one. I remember as he was writing it he would pop into the RPGnet channel on IRC and talk about his cool new project.
Favorites of BESM.
Cute and Fuzzy Cockfighting Seizure Monsters and Big Ears, Small Mouse.
SAS was pretty good for a supers RPG (not nearly as good as ICONS, of course); but the biggest lament for GoO is that they crashed before putting out Amber 2e. Of course, if they had managed that, there might never have been a Lords of Olympus...
Quote from: Panjumanju;825458I remembered hearing at they would do something with Roger Zelazny's Amber, or the Amber Diceless system - one or the other or both, but it never came to anything. I'd love to hear the rest of that story.
//Panjumanju
There wasn't much of a mystery there.
Mark MacKinnon and Jesse Scoble were hardcore
Amber players. When Erick became unable to sustain the ADRP line, they took over fulfillment and distribution for a while, selling ADRP and associated merchandise (back stock of the core books,
Amberzines, and tee-shirts) at conventions for Phage.
They had the rights to sell the ebook version of it it for a while, and eventually the rights passed to Diceless by Design, as part of some convoluted rights shuffle involving the
Tekumel RPG. I'm a little fuzzy on specifics.
Neither GoO or DbD had/have the rights, technically, to do a new edition of the game, as I understand it from unofficial discussions with a representative of the Zelazny Estate. The core books can be sold as ebooks and reprinted, if desired, but
Amberzine was limited to the 1000-copy print runs.
DbD does have the rights to Erick Wujcik's diceless system, which was licensed by Rite Publishing for
Lords of Gossamer & Shadow. Some percentage of LoG&S sales go to DbD and another portion to the Zelazny Estate.
A new edition of ADRP would require renegotiation with the Zelazny Estate, and I suspect that it's simply not going to happen. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Quote from: Gabriel2;825450GoO delivered what the fans asked for, and went out of business at least partially because of that.
GoO went out of business because of the plummeting US dollar vs. the Canadian dollar... an absurd exchange rate drop. All their expenses were in CDND, and the majority of their profits were in USD.
I was still owed money on some freelance with them at the time (something for the
A Game of Thrones RPG, IIRC), and to his credit, Mark tried to make sure I was paid back at least part of what was owed after they went under.
Quote from: Jason D;826097There wasn't much of a mystery there.
Thanks for the story!
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Gabriel2;825450BESM3e was bittersweet. The introduction basically says that BESM started as the game Mark wanted, and BESM3 was the game the fans wanted. GoO delivered what the fans asked for, and went out of business at least partially because of that.
I take away a very dark statement about the RPG biz because of that.
I'm not sure that the conclusion follows, since Guardians of Order went under
before they could publish BESM3. The print run was fulfilled by WW under their Arthaus imprint, and IIRC, a key reason was because GoO had already taken money for preorders and someone in charge felt the fans were owed the product. They only did the one run, which is why it's so expensive on the secondary market.
Since they did, for all intents and purposes, go out of business
before delivering "what the fans wanted", I"m not convinced it was a factor.
Was Tekumel the last thing they published? I bought pretty much every hard copy they made, and that was the last thing I saw on the shelves. Disappointed BESM 3rd wasn't available in print...if it was/is, I'd like to get a copy.
Brad--Just checked, and it's available in POD from DriveThruRPG. Probably cheaper and easier to find than the Arthaus run.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;826403Brad--Just checked, and it's available in POD from DriveThruRPG. Probably cheaper and easier to find than the Arthaus run.
Yep. About half as cheap as hunting down a good quality copy nowadays. I even ordered one as a spare.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;826403Brad--Just checked, and it's available in POD from DriveThruRPG. Probably cheaper and easier to find than the Arthaus run.
For $60, how's the quality? I also saw a few other things I didn't have, some of the d20 books. Heard those sucked, though.
From what I understood at the time, GoO was trying to negotiate the Amber rights; though probably would never have gotten them, based on what we know now, even if they had survived as a company.
Quote from: RPGPundit;826804From what I understood at the time, GoO was trying to negotiate the Amber rights; though probably would never have gotten them, based on what we know now, even if they had survived as a company.
Mark McKinnon, co-designer of BESM, was a huge Amber fan.
Loved BESM, Uresia, Ex Machina, Tekumel, Dreaming Cities.
They didn't keep an eye on the exchange rate changes and went down in flames. That's capitalism, and he tried to pass on as much to others to keep going, hence BESM 3e from Arthaus.
Shame gamers are such twats about business and think they are run as charities by infallible deities, and if not then they are EVIL and worthy of endless flaming.
I *miss* GOO..
Quote from: Brad;826401Disappointed BESM 3rd wasn't available in print...if it was/is, I'd like to get a copy.
It was in print briefly; I have a physical copy.
Quote from: TristramEvans;826813Mark McKinnon, co-designer of BESM, was a huge Amber fan.
Mark originally showed Erick Wujcik the in-progress version of BESM. Erick's advice was to print it "backwards",
manga-style (on cheap paper, IIRC), and fill it with untranslated pages of manga art, captions and all.
Probably wise that they ignored his advice there.
Quote from: Brad;826406For $60, how's the quality? I also saw a few other things I didn't have, some of the d20 books. Heard those sucked, though.
I just got my POD version from RPGNow. I've done a quick comparison to my copy I bought back in 2007.
If you were just to look at the covers, they are nearly indistinguishable from each other. The only visual difference is there are two UPC bar codes on the original version as well as price information (the code 53999 indicating a $39.99 price). The RPGNow version only has one barcode and nothing to indicate price.
Examining the cover a little bit more and comparing the books side by side, the binding on the POD version feels very slightly thicker. The POD version is also a very slightly thicker book, because it is printed on different stock. I'm not talking a considerable difference here. It's only about two millimeters difference. The POD version is also slightly taller and wider. It's about 7 millimeters taller and 4 millimeters wider. They'll look different if they're sitting together on a shelf, but otherwise you can't tell by a casual glance.
Inside is where the difference pops out. The POD version is full color, but the paper is not glossy like the original. It's a matte color print. The original can open and lay flat. The binding on the new version is not like this and there is a very noticable gutter. These are not necessarily flaws. They're just notes on how the original and POD version differ. In fact, my first impression is that I like the matte color interior better. The binding on this POD version also feels a bit more sturdy to me.
The POD version seems to have absorbed the errata. I only have two pages of errata for the original version. Pages 154 and 168 had tables which were fubar in the original. These tables are fixed in the POD version to match the errata pages I have.
There are a few extra pages at the end of the POD version labeled "Notes" which my original copy does not have. On one of these extra pages there is a UPC barcode. I presume this is just an artifact of the POD vendor.
If you want BESM3e, then I'd say the POD version is definitely worth the money, and an excellent alternative if you don't want to pay $100+ for an original printing. I am definitely pleased, and may buy another POD version in the future.
I loved BESM, sad I missed out on 3e. Wish that Arthaus had sold the PDFs, but then again, that was where White Wolf put things that they wanted to die in.
The best book for me was the Sailor Moon one. And I HATE Sailor Moon, but it was written in such a way that actually was fun, and I'd have been willing to run a game in that setting, just because of the author's skill at evoking ideas.
Quote from: Jason D;827330Mark originally showed Erick Wujcik the in-progress version of BESM. Erick's advice was to print it "backwards", manga-style (on cheap paper, IIRC), and fill it with untranslated pages of manga art, captions and all.
Probably wise that they ignored his advice there.
that's brilliant!
How is Tri-Stat as a generic system?
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;828644How is Tri-Stat as a generic system?
There was a generic rules edition of Tri-Stat, although the main difference was simply that the BESM manga flavor was redacted in favor of a streamlined set of rules with a broader thematic focus. I once ran it for a sort of "Aztec gods return" modern era campaign and another time for an occult detective mystery series. It was a pretty neat system if you can find the Tri-Stat book anywhere in print or just get it here (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/368/TriStat-dX-Core-System-RolePlaying-Game?term=tri-stat&it=1).
Quote from: Jason D;827330Mark originally showed Erick Wujcik the in-progress version of BESM. Erick's advice was to print it "backwards", manga-style (on cheap paper, IIRC), and fill it with untranslated pages of manga art, captions and all.
Probably wise that they ignored his advice there.
He was a brilliant game designer, but he really wasn't very good at selling books, was he?