I just re-read one of my favorite RPGsite thread, concerning Polytheism (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=9114) in fantasy but which led to a thought-provoking discussion.
I'm fishing for ideas on ways to implement religion mechanically in a roleplaying game. To differentiate it from magic and to make it flavorful. Seems to me like the hobby has given us many great treatment of "arcane" magic but few interesting takes on the divine from a mechanical standpoint.
So I'm asking the RPGsite for help and thoughts on the matter. I'm going to throw a few things out there. Feel free to throw more things, or pick up the things I throw and run with them :)
1-Games with interesting divine systems. Can you think of some? Want to discuss them? What works and what doesn't?
2-Code of conduct: Are tracks of devotion/piety/whatever, where you would get a pool of points (that you can presumably use to perform divine magic) when you act according to your faith's precepts, something that is interesting, or would it be prone to abuse?
3-Divine VS arcane powers: how do you differentiate them? Do they cover different effects (such as D&D clerics having dibs on healing for instance)? Or is it a matter that they are more powerful but less reliable?
4-How do you cast/channel/make that divine stuff happen? Sacrifices? Rituals? Prayers? The character just drops on his knees and stuff happens?
5-One thing that I have been thinking about lately is afterlife. In religious beliefs old and recent, the promise of better things after death is a central theme. In a roleplaying game where PCs who die are scrapped and you roll out a new character, there isn't much incentive for a player to follow divine commandments. Whether his character goes to Valhalla, heaven, hell is of no concern. So do you:
A) Just ignore the whole afterlife promise and make a new form of sales pitch for why common folks and PCs should follow religions?
B) Try to mechanically implement this? (I don't see how)
C) Keep it as a central theme but it's just a roleplay element
6- Some fantasy RPGs reserve magic for dedicated practicionners, others make magic available for everybody. Some favor a mix of the two approach where the dedicated can channel more power but minor effects are available to everybody else. So what about divine effects and religion? Are the powers solely controlled by priests/clerics?
Feel free to discuss any of this or other matters of religions in fantasy!
If you can make it half as interesting as the Polytheism thread was, it will be extremely useful to me :)
Quote from: Consonant Dude;2877651-Games with interesting divine systems. Can you think of some? Want to discuss them? What works and what doesn't?
It won't be a surprise, coming from me, but I would pitch RuneQuest III for how it differentiates the divine practice from spritual and sorcerous practice.
Quote2-Code of conduct: Are tracks of devotion/piety/whatever, where you would get a pool of points (that you can presumably use to perform divine magic) when you act according to your faith's precepts, something that is interesting, or would it be prone to abuse?
Aquelarre (a Spanish medieval RPG I've talked about here before) has some interesting rules on miracles, asking for saint's intervention and such, and it's related to the PCs actions.
Quote3-Divine VS arcane powers: how do you differentiate them? Do they cover different effects (such as D&D clerics having dibs on healing for instance)? Or is it a matter that they are more powerful but less reliable?
I don't think they shouldn't be very different system-wise: after all, they're supernatural effects and weird shit anyway.
Quote4-How do you cast/channel/make that divine stuff happen? Sacrifices? Rituals? Prayers? The character just drops on his knees and stuff happens?
I prefer everything at once, that is, to allow use of all those means and give bonus according to situation.
Quote5-One thing that I have been thinking about lately is afterlife. In religious beliefs old and recent, the promise of better things after death is a central theme. In a roleplaying game where PCs who die are scrapped and you roll out a new character, there isn't much incentive for a player to follow divine commandments. Whether his character goes to Valhalla, heaven, hell is of no concern. So do you:
A) Just ignore the whole afterlife promise and make a new form of sales pitch for why common folks and PCs should follow religions?
B) Try to mechanically implement this? (I don't see how)
C) Keep it as a central theme but it's just a roleplay element
I usually go for A and C. You could implement B if, for example, you allowed people to play with ghosts or something like it, or maybe with reincarnation of some sorts.
Quote6- Some fantasy RPGs reserve magic for dedicated practicionners, others make magic available for everybody. Some favor a mix of the two approach where the dedicated can channel more power but minor effects are available to everybody else. So what about divine effects and religion? Are the powers solely controlled by priests/clerics?
I think that it should be definitely related to holiness, which is not the sole province of clergy.
Just some brainstorming here...
Quote from: Consonant Dude;2877652-Code of conduct: Are tracks of devotion/piety/whatever, where you would get a pool of points (that you can presumably use to perform divine magic) when you act according to your faith's precepts, something that is interesting, or would it be prone to abuse?
The main problem I can see is hoarding. If PCs can get these points for easy and mundane tasks, they'll be spending all their time in such pursuits. "I give one copper coin each to a hundred separate street urchins, because that's how I get the most Divine Favour Points. Oh, and I kindly stroke their hair for another 1 point per every four urchins."
On the other hand, if you only get points for major actions - slaying a dragon threatening the land (and the gods' followers), defeating another faith's champion, etc. -, then such points, and opportunities to spend them, will be anything but regular. This might work in a system where any hero/adventurer can call on divine favour on rare and momentous occasions, but not for a "professional miracleman" class like D&D's Cleric, who uses his abilites on a daily basis.
Having said all that, if you want to use such a system to make PCs keep to their religious tenets and codes of conduct, then I think negative reinforcement would work much better: if they DON'T act right, they get divine punishment. After all, Christianity also needed to invent Hell to keep the peasants in line.
Quote3-Divine VS arcane powers: how do you differentiate them? Do they cover different effects (such as D&D clerics having dibs on healing for instance)? Or is it a matter that they are more powerful but less reliable?
If I were to make up a system right now, I'd probably implement the following elements sort-of based on historical magic practices:
- All magic is actually done by supernatural powers. The difference is that clerics/miraclemen
beseech, while wizards
compel those powers to action. So, clerical magic either works, or it doesn't. Arcane magic either works, or an entity takes offense and something bad happens to the caster.
- Divine "magic", at least part of it, is regular and preventive: you go to church every Sunday, or you make a sacrifice to Demeter the same time every year. If you don't keep up the regular activity, something bad might happen, some sort of protection or blessing is taken off of you. In contrast, arcane magic is occasional and reactive: you don't go to the witch woman regularly to stave off disease; you go there to get cured on the singular occasion of already having contracted it (or you already has something stolen and want to get the thief cursed).
Another thing: historical arcane magic is typically a ritual, and so it takes time. Might be minutes to hours, embroidering a specially prepared napkin with a love charm; or it might be days spent chanting and meditating. Also, material requisites are very, very common. In contrast, I'd say that the typical divine "miracle" (as opposed to regular stuff like blessings and beseeching protection) happen pretty quick: Jesus just waves his hand, and Lazarus rises immediately. No material components, no lengthy rituals.
Quote4-How do you cast/channel/make that divine stuff happen? Sacrifices? Rituals? Prayers? The character just drops on his knees and stuff happens?
I'd say it depends. Constant effect things like blessings or lasting protections would require some sort of formalized religious ritual. For true "emergency" miracles, just a quick prayer - again, contrast with the length rituals of arcane magic.
But then, this is
really dependent on genre, style and source inspiration. I'm playing in a completely ahistorical S&S / S&P game in a D&D-based system, where anyone - not just clerics, but any other classes as well - can just make a suitably expensive sacrifice to a god, and they might get some one-off blessing in the form of one-shot spells that they can retain and cast whenever they wish; and it works really nice. But then, that game has highly opportunistic gods (and just as highly opportunistic followers), where such "spells for sacrifice" contracts are convenient to both parties. In contrast, a Judeo-Christian-inspired setting probably wouldn't allow such crass bargaining.
Quote5-One thing that I have been thinking about lately is afterlife. In religious beliefs old and recent, the promise of better things after death is a central theme. In a roleplaying game where PCs who die are scrapped and you roll out a new character, there isn't much incentive for a player to follow divine commandments. Whether his character goes to Valhalla, heaven, hell is of no concern. So do you:
A) Just ignore the whole afterlife promise and make a new form of sales pitch for why common folks and PCs should follow religions?
B) Try to mechanically implement this? (I don't see how)
C) Keep it as a central theme but it's just a roleplay element
C) is certainly good for world building and setting the mood of the game, if your players are willing to play ball. A) I find incompatible with my tastes.
As for B), how about this: if your character dies and your new one is from the same race/culture/faith, then the previous PCs will become either a patron "saint", or a tempting demon? If he went to Valhalla, then he might be occasionaly summoned to help the new character; if he was a Buddhist, then maybe he reincarnated as the next PC, giving the new a slight stat bonus. If he was unvirtuous, he would similarly become some sort of setback.
Quote from: Imperator;287770I usually go for A and C. You could implement B if, for example, you allowed people to play with ghosts or something like it, or maybe with reincarnation of some sorts.
Ghosts, possessions, etc... that kind of stuff could work but I have no idea how I would implement this. Reincarnation was my favorite and I thought about it but it proved bothersome in play as there is always the possibility of character death right in the middle of an adventure/campaign and it is very impractical to wait two decades for an adventurer to grow up, not to mention the fact all the other characters will have aged.
I guess in high fantasy campaigns, all those possibilities could be more easily implemented but I keep things fairly humano-centric and grim.
However, this stuff would be cool with an elvish-like immortal or long-lived race.
I would say that what you want to look at are Pendragon's Traits system; where there are certain traits that define a religious knight, and if he maintains all of those traits at a certain level, he gets a "religious bonus", based on his religion.
RPGPundit
(Generic) You have 'Faith' and 'Precepts'. Faith is a constant; if you cast Divine Fireball, the to-hit roll is Ye Olde Attack; damage is based on Faith with no dice roll and of type Divine. Precepts determine what you can do; 3e domains, only more philosophical.
Faith goes up or down depending on actions.
Quote from: Consonant Dude;2877653-Divine VS arcane powers: how do you differentiate them? Do they cover different effects (such as D&D clerics having dibs on healing for instance)? Or is it a matter that they are more powerful but less reliable?
Divine vs arcane?
It's how they relate to communities. Clerics have a symbiotic relationship with a community. They cast 'bless crops' but they need someone to harvest it. They cast 'heal wounds' but they need someone brave enough to take those wounds in the first place. Even evil religions (as depicted in pulp) work that way -- the witch doctor gives magical strength to a community of warriors and that warrior community oppresses the surrounding people's on witch doctor's behalf.
Wizards don't have much to offer a community and communities don't have much to offer a wizard. A wizard might work with people but they are typicaly depicted as his slaves.
So mechanicaly, wizards have spells that make them powerful as individuals and clerics have spells that make them powerful as communities.
Quote4-How do you cast/channel/make that divine stuff happen? Sacrifices? Rituals? Prayers? The character just drops on his knees and stuff happens?
Moses style! Beard + preaching + rod = Awesome!
Quote5-One thing that I have been thinking about lately is afterlife. In religious beliefs old and recent, the promise of better things after death is a central theme. In a roleplaying game where PCs who die are scrapped and you roll out a new character, there isn't much incentive for a player to follow divine commandments. Whether his character goes to Valhalla, heaven, hell is of no concern. So do you:
A) Just ignore the whole afterlife promise and make a new form of sales pitch for why common folks and PCs should follow religions?
B) Try to mechanically implement this? (I don't see how)
C) Keep it as a central theme but it's just a roleplay element
I thought the appeal of D&D religion was getting to choose a wacky afterlife. You know stuff like become a lich, spend eternity as a cog in the Ideal clock, or transform into a living statue and try to make it with all the rocks in the elemental plane of earth. It's not 'high' roleplaying but it makes for some wacky entertainment.
As far as implementing it mechanicaly, it seems that if resurection is as common as it is in D&D, the afterlife could become that much more important in the here-and-now. You die, go to hell and are shacked there for all eternity or until your buddy 'Elan the Cleric and his god Bongo' busts you out again. Suddenly, Elan's religion doesn't sound so funny.
Or, if you die valiently the valkries give you VIP treatment and you return with an extra spring in your step. Or perhaps they give you a new body with full hitpoints and shoot you back to earth in a divine drop pod. And perhaps one of the valkries rides with you to operate the pintle mounted storm bolter.
Or, if you die and glimpse the magical afterlife, you come back wiser or crazer (but always more powerful!)
For a different approach, it's worth keeping in mind that religions even in a fantasy setting don't necessarily possess any greater insights into the objective truths of the universe than they do in the real world. Faith in itself is a force to be reckoned with, no matter whether the deities revered by the faithful actually exist or not: there's no chance of mistaking priests for wizards if you make all their power political and social instead of magical.
Continuing that train of thought, there's no reason to think that wizards have great insight either. They're just creepy hermits that sell secret wisdom and/or frighten people for a quick buck.