TheRPGSite

How do you redefine demihumans in a fantasy setting in such a way that you don't remove what essentially defines these races, but while making them more appealing to play, giving them a fresh feel, etc?

I guess part of this question requires that we define what is "essentially defining" for these races...

Also, are there any games that you think do exactly this in a good way? Are there any games that try it but fail miserably?

RPGPundit

I don't know how to fix halflings to not be a Tolkien ripoff other than totally redesigning a short race and slapping on the halfling name.

For elves and dwarves, I'd stop basing them on recent ripoffs of ripoffs of Tolkien and go straight to folklore sources.  I wouldn't give them abilities based a sentence or two in LOTR.

I'd kinda roll gnomes and dwarves together to get a dwarf similar to Scandinavian/German tales.  No more short grumpy fighters.  Dwarves would be the smiths who make all the cool magical items, tricky, greedy, no match for humans in a straight fight.  

For elves, I'd reconnect them more with their fairy origin.  Magic that can be powerful but is bound by strange rules.  They would be tied to nature and to a shadow/dream world that would give them abilities and limitations.

I like to give Elves axes and crossbows, which are traditionally dwarvish weapons.  I figure that in a forest, they should be more concerned with short-ranged, direct fire attacks (cross bow vs long bow).  Hunting deer and such is much easier with a crossbow than a bow.

I also like the idea that Elves are lovers of the forest in the truest sense of the word and thus know when it is proper and ideal to "slim the herd" of their trees.  They need to make fires and I'm just not hippie enough to believe that they'd completely subsist on dead branches and cowdung for their fires.

Oh, and Elves grow beards and wear plaid.  Not huge beards, but more like jawline things and goatees, maybe a soul patch here and there.  And screw with this long-haired hippie look!  Elves crop their hair close, or braid it.  You ever try walking through a thicket with long hair? Every little branch grabs you and says, "wait a minute..."

Elven dead are buried in a circular pit and a tree is planted over their body.  The tree is revered as the resting place of their ancestor for 25 years and then it is cut down and the timber used to make their finest woodcraft.  Thus do they keep the memory of their lost ones.

(The wearing of plaid is just because so many outdoorsy types that I know seem to think that plaid is the height of fashion, so I tossed it into the mix for fun.)

Dwarves, on the other hand, become more at one with the rocks.  They become primal.  They have dark, ritualistic orgies deep underground in the mineral rich muds.  Beards are common, to keep them warm, but they shave their heads to better fit the headgear they need to navigate the caves.  

Their most common weapon is the shovel, followed closely by the pickaxe and the hammer.  

Their love of metal and rock is so deep that they fixate upon it and must learn every method of working it.  Blacksmithing isn't an occupation.  It's a religion.  They have acclamated to mining so much that their black lungs can't handle clean air for protracted periods.  They must return to the smelting pits and deep mines and dig into the mountains, freeing the minerals they need to survive and breathe in.

A traveling Dwarf will carry part of his "mother mountain" with him when going overland.  Powdered minerals that he snuffs on a regular basis to keep from dying.  

Dead Dwarves are burned in the furnaces, and their bones ground up and used to temper the blades and armor of their descendants.  When Thorin Oakenshield says that he's using the swords made of his fathers, he's being quite serious!

Quote from: Vellorian(The wearing of plaid is just because so many outdoorsy types that I know seem to think that plaid is the height of fashion, so I tossed it into the mix for fun.)

Plaid is an effective camoflage - most animals are color blind - that's why hunters wear it.

Added: It only works for birds if the tartan colors echo the colors of land and vegitation, as birds see color quite well. :D

-mice

Quote from: flyingmicePlaid is an effective camoflage - most animals are color blind - that's why hunters wear it.

Added: It only works for birds if the tartan colors echo the colors of land and vegitation, as birds see color quite well. :D

Well, there you have it, then.  Elves in plaid.  :)

Warhammer doesn't do a damn thing to redefine the Tolkienesque tropes of Elves/Dwarves/Halflings, but I still love how it handles them (for the most part).  It's the barely-contained psychopathic rage that everyone has in the Old World that makes them so interesting.

Warhammer just turns everything up.  Why not make the Dwarf Bible a long list of everything and everyone that's ever pissed them off?  Why not make Halflings a bunch of bulimic hedonists who walk around in an alcoholic haze?

It's all grimy and pimply enough to make things fun.  And the Troll Slayer is still the coolest thing Games Workshop ever came up with (piss on the Space Marines.)

I have no original ideas to add, my damaged brain too withered from years of gleeful D&D.

I was going to respond to say that very thing about Warhammer, fonkaygarry.

Its really that they use the familiar characteristics, but push them up to 11.  Elves are these grey- and brown- wearing motherfuckers that hide in the wood, speak very few words, and can KILL you. The magic that humans take a whole career to learn is the magic that the elves literally teach their children before moving onto the "serious stuff". And they usually tend to think of humans as just one step removed from greenskins.

The Dwarves are ultraviolent grudge-bearing killing machines that literally go insane with rage at the sight of greenskins.

Its also funny how, essentially, the Dwarves are best buddies with the Germans, and the Elves with the French. Its just right.

And the halflings, oh the halflings... the little fuckers are the stereotyped Gypsies of the warhammer world.  Filthy little alcoholic groin-stabbing bastards that you don't want to catch you alone in an alley at night or have to buy merchandise from. They run the whorehouses, they're "atheists" by necessity because no god wants them, and the Empire gave them their own little province mainly as a desperate effort to contain them.  
It didn't work.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd the halflings, oh the halflings... the little fuckers are the stereotyped Gypsies of the warhammer world.  Filthy little alcoholic groin-stabbing bastards that you don't want to catch you alone in an alley at night or have to buy merchandise from. They run the whorehouses, they're "atheists" by necessity because no god wants them, and the Empire gave them their own little province mainly as a desperate effort to contain them.  
It didn't work.

For the first time, I am finding the prospect of playing a halfling interesting...

In my case I made elves and dwarfs species of human. Halflings are advanced bonobos (part of a rivalry with the "creator" of goblins, who are advanced chimpanzees).

Elves arose in and around the land of Karelia in way Northern Europe. In real life it's shared between Finland and Russia. Elves are short, stocky, good at moving around after dark, and good with magic of a natural bent. Historically they spread out of Karelia some 20,000 years ago. They appeared in Europe proper some 18,000 years ago, and by 2,000 BC were colonizing Africa and Australia. They reached the Americas around the birth of Christ. Elves are best described as cocksure, competent, and good with advice. Though they do have a problem taking advice.

Dwarfs come from the Alps. They are craftsmen, merchants, excellent smiths, but so-so miners (they rely on humans or kobolds for that). Most dwarfs have a mild form of claustrophobia. They are shorter than elves, yet stockier, and are the one species descended from humans with what could be called a robust skeleton. This a trait they share with ogres and alma.

Halflings come from Africa. Specifically the Congo Basin. They are small, slight, and curious. They prefer to wander about a well defined territory, though they are willing to go new places when the urge hits them. All halflings are bisexual to one degree or another, and engage in casual sex at the drop of pants. It should be noted that the composition of a males semen differs depening on whether the sex is for pleasure or mating. If the former the semen has virtually no sperm content, and what sperm there are are malformed, weak, and lack any mechanism for penetrating an ovum's coat.

That's what I did to elves, dwarfs, and halflings.

In my recent homebrew, I just added another little dimension to my dwarves:  they aren't just miners and whatnot, but explorers (setting up trade colonies) and exceedingly proficient merchants.  It was something a little extra I threw in to make the old Greed trait a little more proactive.  Minor, I know, but it worked for me.

Elves:  Well, I tend to have two different sorts of Elves.  The High Elves are arrogant asses who resent humanity's rise ("they breed like rats) and see their grace, long life span, and woodcraft as pure proof of their superiority.  Wood Elves for me are much like they are in Tolkien:  somewhat less wise than the High Elves, a fun-loving but dangerous folk with inherent magic--all in all, more more of a wild, "primeval woods" feel to them.

Quote from: mythusmageElves arose in and around the land of Karelia in way Northern Europe. In real life it's shared between Finland and Russia.

"The Singing Hills of Karelia" used to be part of our country before being ceded to the Soviets. Quite a few Finns still think of the region as a near-mythical lost homeland of sorts, even though for the majority it's gone for good.

Quote from: GrimGent"The Singing Hills of Karelia" used to be part of our country before being ceded to the Soviets. Quite a few Finns still think of the region as a near-mythical lost homeland of sorts, even though for the majority it's gone for good.

The way the Russians are fucking themselves over, you may get it back sooner than you think. But make sure you have the Poles and Lithuanians on board before taking on St. Petersburgh.

I like how Elves are handled in the old SPI wargame, Albion: Land of Faerie. A magazine article (http://www.grognard.com/variants1/albion.html) later provided stats and info on using the background with Dragonquest but I don't think the system would be a good fit.

Anyway, in Albion, a whole bunch of details set the Elves (Sidhe) off from standard FRP tropes both in terms of their innate characteristics and their relations to other races. Foremost, they're not a marginal people living in the woods, but the central race who dominate the setting (basically, alt-prehistoric British Isles). Men are barbarians who've just begun settling in the south and east, while Trolls (Stone Giants) or Fomor are the great enemies inhabiting modern-day Scotland and parts of Ireland. The Sidhe live in largish settlements called "Knowes" (IIRC either on top of or under hills) and though magical, they lack the trite "Robin Hood with pointy ears" and "at one with nature" stereotypes. In fact the entire setting seems a bit like a reimagining of post-Roman Britain, with a critically-wounded but still powerful civilization fighting against various uncouth outsiders. By making the Elves central, I think there's a lot more room for individuals to be flawed and to have unique, three-dimensional personalities.

In my homebrew setting ('Ilmahal') I made the following changes to the standard 'fantasy' races:

Elves.  I call them the 'Lios Alfar' and use old Norse for their names, etc.  They dislike humans, but interact with them for economic reasons.  Unknown to most humans (and indeed, many 'common Alfar'), the leadership of the Alfar are bent on eradicating humans from 'their' world.  Yes, the higher-up Alfar are evil -- but nobody really knows this.  And of course the Alfar don't think that they're evil (after all, the humans are short-lived, destructive, profligate vermin, who have the audacity to look like uglier versions of themselves).

Dwarves.  I didn't really make too many changes to the dwarves, except for giving them a weird name ('Vadhre'), and emphasising their ties to the element of 'Earth'.  Indeed, the Vadhre don't worship a god; rather, their 'divine' power is channeled directly form the essence of the earth itself.  Also, they speak with a German accent instead of a Scottish one.

Gnomes.  Only 'forest gnomes' exist in Ilmahal, and there they are known as the 'Waldleuti' ('woodland spirits') and 'brownies'.  They are a reclusive woodland folk who live in a state of blissful anarchy (the niche sometimes filled by elves, but not in my world).  Sometimes a few get curious about those crazy humans, and they journey to the towns to learn more ... but not often.

Halflings.  The only survivors of an ancient race of humans who made the mistake of worshipping the wrong god.  The god in question lost in his power bid to rule Godsland, and was exiled to a prison on Flux.  His followers were cursed with diminutive size, and their native land was turned into an icy wasteland.  The diaspora of halflings led them to settle in many different lands, and to eek out an existence on the margins of human society.  Unlike standard halflings, they are rather scholarly, as the god that they worshipped (and continue to worship) was the 'seeker and keeper of secrets'.  Halflings are generally viewed as 'dodgey characters', but they are loyal to each other (and the few nonhalfling friends that they make).

So, the demihumans in Ilmahal are recognizable, but different.  (Or so I hope...)

Elves: I changed elves up a bit in d20. None of this constitution penalty crap, I gave 'em -2str. Their weapon proficiencies were curtailed to weapon group: light blades and weapon group: bows (I used weapon groups). Their favored class was the wu-jen. Most took up wood wu-jennery. And they lived in a jungle setting that was pseudo South-American meets pseudo-Oriental and way freaking across the sea from everybody else. Constant shadow wars against aberrations kept them reclusive, aloof, and everything else they tend to be (is it really a dwarf? or has this subterranean man been voidminded by mind-flayers?)... Yeah, paranoid elves. Hence hidden communities and everything else.

Dwarves: Not as many changes. Charisma penalty sucked ass, so I switched it for dexterity (not as much of a biggie... one of my other variants was class-based AC progression) and changed their favored class to samurai or knight (there weren't any dwarf players, so it didn't really matter at the time).

Halflings: Originally tropical islanders. Got slaved. Nautical slave rebellions. This meant a few stat changes (bonus to compulsion, as opposed to fear; bonus to swim, use rope, and one other I can't remember off the top of my head in place of normal skill bonuses; "thrown weapons" benefit with flails and chains) and some violent, fringer, badass halflings who, often as not, took to piracy.

But enough about these guys, why all the European mythical creatures getting made humanoid? Couldn't we do scriptural or middle-eastern ideas as playable races? Djinn? Lillin? Nephillim?

When it comes to halflings, there are two almost diametrically opposed ways that they've been portrayed in RPGs: fat, naive babes-in-the-woods and sneaky kleptomaniacs. I dislike both.

I like the concept that halflings are something of a miniature reflection of human society. But halflings don't see themselves as "half" of anything. They see themselves as the main race in the world, while all the others - except gnomes - are at best vaguely threatening due to their size. In effect, humans are among the folk halflings would consider giants.

Unlike Tolkien's hobbits, halflings as I envision them have never been coddled by more physically powerful races. They've had to take their knocks, and have become more militant and quick to respond to threats. This is modeled on Tolkien's hobbits also, but it happens near the end of the story when the hobbits have to take back the Shire from Saruman and his thugs.

Imagine these halflings a few centuries down the road. They've found that keeping scouts constantly vigilant beyond the borders of their homelands allows them to respond to threats before they reach those borders. They can't physically hold up against the "giants" (anything bigger than them and the gnomes), so their forces are more fluid, more stealthy, with storms of arrows and sling bullets catching enemy forces in choke points. Hit-and-run pony and dog cavalry harries enemies towards these choke points. Specially trained "giant slayers" deal with enemies that don't succumb to such attacks.

But it's not all about the military. Halflings only go to war to defend themselves. In their homes, they're much like Tolkien's hobbits...except that they are more self-confident, less likely to back down when threatened, much more knowledgable of the world.

Maybe not exotic enough for some, but it's how I see 'em.

I just gotta second Col. Hardisson's take on the Halflings.  One does wonder just what they call themselves if not half?

Lings?

Halflings would obviously be the name appended to the little blighters by the races of Man.  Like every other intelligent species, in the end I'm sure their own self name translates to more or less...

Us.

I once had halfings based on a wizards experiment to merge his cat familiar and his best servant...to have a magical useful with hands servant..so all the subraces are also similar to house cats.

Tallfellow=Siamese cat.
Stout=Manx


Of course I'm still using this for a sillier dungeon crawl game I'm working on (more D&D as in BASIC D&D, than not.)

don't everyone take this the wrong way- but why bother? If'n you're looking for a different feel than vanilla/tolkeinized frpg provides why not make up your own races, or borrow from different sources? Is it that players or maybe gms) need these fixtures in order to feel like they're playing a fantasy game?

Quote from: Aosdon't everyone take this the wrong way- but why bother? If'n you're looking for a different feel than vanilla/tolkeinized frpg provides why not make up your own races, or borrow from different sources? Is it that players or maybe gms) need these fixtures in order to feel like they're playing a fantasy game?

Well, maybe because of time pressures you are planning on relying heavily on published modules (which use the 'standard races'), but nonetheless want to 'spice things up'?  Some (mainly aesthetic) changes to the standard races might accomplish this.

Also, taking something familiar and making it slightly different can often be more effective in evoking a sense of novelty (and even strangeness) than simply coming up with something entirely different.  For example, a game in which halflings are violent, barbaric cannibals (as in Dark Sun) might strike players as more creepy than simply inventing a new race of diminutive barbaric cannibals.

The problem with races in most FRGP's is that they are too uniform and homogenous.  It has always struck me as somewhat odd that in most settings all elves act a certain way but there maybe dozens of different human cultures.

I think the solution to keeping demihumans interesting is to give them different national cultures.  For example, the elves of the Green Wood maybe caste based and city dwelling while the elves of the North Wood are matriarchal, tribal, and semi-nomadic.

So to keep things interesting in my games I don't tweak the elves once but break them up and tweak them up to a half dozen times.

One thing I do find pretty strange, at least in D&D, is that every time there's a culturally significant difference among demihumans they're made into a sub-race.  That just strikes me as odd.  Like anytime a dwarf becomes too different from the norm there suddenly spawns a new subrace.

How many different subraces of elves are there in all editions D&D anyway?

Quote from: AkrasiaWell, maybe because of time pressures you are planning on relying heavily on published modules (which use the 'standard races'), but nonetheless want to 'spice things up'?  Some (mainly aesthetic) changes to the standard races might accomplish this.

Also, taking something familiar and making it slightly different can often be more effective in evoking a sense of novelty (and even strangeness) than simply coming up with something entirely different.  For example, a game in which halflings are violent, barbaric cannibals (as in Dark Sun) might strike players as more creepy than simply inventing a new race of diminutive barbaric cannibals.

Okay, fair enough. I never use published stuff- I find that it takes longer for me to use than coming up with my own thing; but I do see you point. As for cannibals, though, I've just spent a little time studying them for an anth course on the south pacific- and, dude, it doesn't matter what size they are the creepy volume goes instantly to 15.

Following the example of 100 Fantasy Kingdoms, is there a "100 fantasy races" book of variants for the classic races?

Quote from: JongWKFollowing the example of 100 Fantasy Kingdoms, is there a "100 fantasy races" book of variants for the classic races?

I'd like to see that, provided it was something more than just "Tiger-men", "Frog-men", "Lizard-Men", "Slug-Men", etc.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI'd like to see that, provided it was something more than just "Tiger-men", "Frog-men", "Lizard-Men", "Slug-Men", etc.

Or worse: "wood elf", "forest elf", "coffee lounge elf", "tree elf", "sylvan elf", etc etc.

RPGPundit

Haven't done the elves yet, but there are two major kobold populations on Dragon Earth. The original, Indian population consists of nomadic hunter/gatherers, with a few bands having taken up life in the cities.

The European kobold is either a settled farmer, or a city dweller. The latter are merchants, engineers, and small time bankers.

In both cases they get along famously with gnomes. The European kobold hates the French (long story), and a number hire out with the dwarfs as miners. The Indian kobold has no special animosity towards anyone, but tends to be wary when dealing with the native-born rakshasa community.

Quote from: JongWKFollowing the example of 100 Fantasy Kingdoms, is there a "100 fantasy races" book of variants for the classic races?

Where to draw ideas from?

Apocryphal Jeudochristian myth would be a nice place to start...

Nephillim... Lillin...

Uh...

Oh, and genies! And... uh... Help me out here...

Dwarves and elves are merely the males and the females of the same species. (Which also explain why they're always bitching at each others, yet aren't actually enemies.)

Halflings don't really inspire me. I see them mostly as sort of gypsies.

Gnomes, on the other hand, are monastic. Valuing wisdom and knowledge, seeing through the illusions of lives, and able to speak with animals. They live on high hills lost in the mist, or in cloudy mountaintops, and keep many secret libraries and temples. Beware the Shaolin Gnome! Ooooommmmmmmm...

Quote from: beejazzWhere to draw ideas from?

Apocryphal Jeudochristian myth would be a nice place to start...

Nephillim... Lillin...

Uh...

Oh, and genies! And... uh... Help me out here...

How about Pre-Columbine cultures?

Quote from: RPGPundit"coffee lounge elf"

This one actually has some amusing potential...  ;)

Quote from: mythusmageIn my case I made elves and dwarfs species of human. Halflings are advanced bonobos (part of a rivalry with the "creator" of goblins, who are advanced chimpanzees).

Elves arose in and around the land of Karelia in way Northern Europe. In real life it's shared between Finland and Russia. Elves are short, stocky, good at moving around after dark, and good with magic of a natural bent. Historically they spread out of Karelia some 20,000 years ago. They appeared in Europe proper some 18,000 years ago, and by 2,000 BC were colonizing Africa and Australia. They reached the Americas around the birth of Christ. Elves are best described as cocksure, competent, and good with advice. Though they do have a problem taking advice.

Dwarfs come from the Alps. They are craftsmen, merchants, excellent smiths, but so-so miners (they rely on humans or kobolds for that). Most dwarfs have a mild form of claustrophobia. They are shorter than elves, yet stockier, and are the one species descended from humans with what could be called a robust skeleton. This a trait they share with ogres and alma.

That's what I did to elves, dwarfs, and halflings.

That's totally cool. I'm a big fan of evolutionary psychology. What system did you do this for?

I did this to elves in my Savage Worlds fantasy game:

Elves are tall, lithe and thin, with slightly pointed ears. Their skin is extremely fair, with almost a bluish tint. Their hair ranges from silver to platinum to light blond. Their eyes are violet, blue or gray. They are fond of highly ornamental weapons, armor and other accoutrements.

They are elegant, amoral, cruel and completely alien to human culture and concerns. They are masters of dark sorcery and love to experiment with living subjects, creating all sorts of human and animal abominations which they use to guard their eery, glittering cities. Humans captured by elves often end up subjected to elvish science.

Elves do no work beyond what they desire, and rely heavily on dominated slaves to keep their city alive. The individual elf lives a life of decadent pleasure, indulging in all manner of forbidden luxuries. Sorcery is a main passion, with many elves becoming fearsome magicians over the course of their long lifetimes. They delight in summoning demons and devils, and consider themselves the true masters of this world and the one beyond.

Elves found outside of their homelands are usually on a slave raiding mission, and attack humans on sight.

Elvish Spirit Sword (Magical Item)
Elvish Spirit Swords are viciously sharp, wickedly designed longswords that crackle with an eldritch blue energy. An aura of palpable fear surrounds them. These swords do regular damage, plus drain one level of Spirit with each successful wound. Individuals fully drained of spirit are incapable of independent thought and action, and readily follow the commands of elves.

Humans captured in this manner are usually marched off to the Elvish cities for experimentation. If such ensorcelled humans are rescued from the elves that captured them, Spirit drained by the swords returns at the rate of one level every full day of rest. Elvish Spirit Swords are bonded to individual elves, and function as normal longswords in the hands of anyone else.

There are rumors of Greater Elven Spirit Swords that possess a rudimentary intelligence and a number of other magical abilities. These are unconfirmed.

Quote from: mattormegThat's totally cool. I'm a big fan of evolutionary psychology. What system did you do this for?

A d20 based homebrew.