Quote from: David RSo Elliot, what Sett is trying to say, is that rpgs mean different things to different gamers?

Yes, I think when he's careful both intellectually and in a diplomatic sense, he means just that.

Somehow when he expresses a preference for games run according to what "RPGs mean to Sett", this comes through as "RPGs mean Y", especially to people who do believe "RPGs mean X", but also sometimes to people who believe "RPGs can mean X, Y, Z, chi, omega, etc."

Quote from: Elliot Wilenestar, there's a long history of people stumbling over the meaning of "plot" & "story". I mean decades-long, and that's only in RPG discussion. What you refer to as "plot" in posts 26 & 28 above can be called "backstory" combined with "initial situation". What I'm used to calling "plot" is closer to how

Sure I can see how it can be debated and the terms themselves be argued. When I use the terms this is what I mean.

Story is what you get when you write down the result of the session. It will read a lot like a court transcript. Oral re-telling will sound like "The day I caught the big fish" stories that your dad used to tell. (Don't bother to pin me on this it is a metaphor). The best oral stories are treasures of memories that many of carry for decades and part of the reason we play.

"Battle Hobbit", "The Time Travel Debate", "Endless Star and Bargle", "Balothous and the Ebon Crystal", "Mayster's Betrayal", "The day Endless Star 2 shamed Ravenholt", "The day Endless Star 2 did the back flip". "The Bat Story", "My first adventure, or I got killed by trying to parry that damn skeleton".  and others are the ones I like to tell.

A story is also what you get when you write fiction. It can be short, a novel, or one of the forms in between.

Plot is the elements of the story. The background, events, and characters that make up a story. Now for fiction plot can be developed into that "World of John Doe's Plainsmen of Xorin" supplemental book but otherwise are firmly embedded in the written pages of the story.

However for LARP and RPGs plot is very distinct and represented by the adventure, character sheets, crib notes, and other material that is written before actual play. During play the process of interaction between the rules, GM, and players generates the story.

As for Sett, his games does have story. After they are play you could sit down and write up what happen and that would the "story" of Sett's game. However the MECHANICs of how that done i.e. the rules, are very different than the games that he doesn't understand.

Furthermore I don't say my definitions are any better than anybody's else. But now people will know what I am talking when I say plot and story.

Quote from: SettembriniWhat Pondsmith WANTED, what he DID, and what he SAID are three different things, I fear.

Footnote: Disappointment with CP2020 has been cited by Joshua A.C. Newman as a key impetus to his gaming career.

This may explain a lot.

Koltar, Gostface:

Just think of us three as basically gaming just the same way. Try to read my posts with that in mind. I think I´m a bit more hardball than Ghostface, but the structure is the same, I would guess.

estar really made a good explanation. His number 3) is what I don´t understand.
Alas, there are people on the globe, who think RPGs ar REALLY about number three, at least conceptually.

Also, Elliot is right: I´m not saying what RPGs are REALLY about. I´m only calling bullshit on those, who keep saying: RPGS are REALLY about "story" (in the number three way).

Quote from: estarBut now people will know what I am talking when I say plot and story.

Okay, so, for the sake of this thread, what would you call a series of linearly-linked or minimally branching scenes, planned out beforehand, and designed to culminate in a particular scene with an expected outcome? Since that's kind of a bitch to type every time.

Quote from: Elliot WilenYes, I think when he's careful both intellectually and in a diplomatic sense, he means just that.

Somehow when he expresses a preference for games run according to what "RPGs mean to Sett", this comes through as "RPGs mean Y", especially to people who do believe "RPGs mean X", but also sometimes to people who believe "RPGs can mean X, Y, Z, chi, omega, etc."

Fair enough.

Koltar, FYI : Robin Laws once wrote an article in Dragon about how to structure campaigns like TV series.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SettembriniKoltar, Gostface:

Also, Elliot is right: I´m not saying what RPGs are REALLY about. I´m only calling bullshit on those, who keep saying: RPGS are REALLY about "story" (in the number three way).

For many, I am guessing this include you, they are about the challenge. You are in X situation dealing with the dangers of Y. The "Go deal with it" attitude. A lot of people get a thrill from it. It probably the top reason why people get started with LARPS, RPGS, gaming in general. You are there, you make the decision, you suffer or benefit from the consequences.

The only caveat I will note is that for the vast majority of players the challenge become old. Eventually with any rule system you will been there done that explored not only the A strategy, but B, C, all the way to Z.

Individual LARPS and RPGs keep players one of two ways. (this is presuming staying with the same system) Either players stay because it is part of their social group, and/or they find the plot and the stories that result compelling.

The #3 choice that Sett referred too are players that jumped to focus on the plot and story part of RPGs and minimize the rules. But I think you will find that some sort of rules will be used otherwise it becomes a "Bang, Bang, Your dead, I am not" problem. The use of a rule system, no matter how minimal, means there is a element of randomness, thus the final result of any one episode is still a surprise even it has totally rehashed background, characters, and/or events.

No, I don´t care for the challenge that much.
I care for the Adventure!

Let me rephrase why I´m gaming:

QuoteI want mysterious places, insidous traps, intricate scheming, ressource management, being there, play my character, act out my character, make a speech, roll for diplomacy, build a trade empire, be imprisoned, build my starship, draw deckplans, explore new worlds, be awestruck by the might of the Emperor, be a Hero, be a Villain, have a party, be terrified, fall in love, learn to hate, seek revenge, seek reconciliation, roll a crit, die, live, find a magic sword, destroy the precursor artifact, learn about magic, destroy a planet, study fake histories, make history, be history, travel back in time, travel to the future, fight the future, see the aliens, prove they don´t exist, receive gifts, be poor, be rich, help the those in need, become a god, become mortal, win, fail, struggle, hack a computer, build an arch, be an arch, destroy the arch, bomb the palace, find the terrorists, use a minigun, fly a helicopter, ride a dragon, slay a dragon, kill Kyuss, and take his place, mock the Lady, see the Planes, save the planes, teleport the fighter next to the enemy Magic User, raise dead, slay living, talk to trees, surf on a ley line, survive Nuclear attacks, die from radiation, rebuild civilization, use a shotgun, drive a tank, be a tank, meet Han Solo, play a Ninja-Dragon, laugh about Ninja-Dragons, be immortal, be a commoner, learn about history, forget reality, learn about my fellow humans, mock my fellow humans, spend time with friends, pwn n00bz, help out n00bz, munch my crackers, recite the Conan introduction, use my death grip, high five with my friends when it works, be impressed by my friends, impress my friends, stop the Old Ones, or die trying, shock the DM, lickspittle the DM, curse his dice, cherish mine, make a new character, level up, roll save vs. death, play the character I rolled up, roll up a new one, cause I didn´t made the survival roll, spend a brownie point, receive a brownie point, be a Vargr, fight the Sollies, fight the Impies, strategize, dramatize, be a part, be seperate, uncover the plot, cover up the act, bomb Dulinor, talk to Splynncrith, see the desert of despair, travel the mockerson gap, defend Constantinople, be a machine gunner, play an instrument, be smart, use player knowledge, abstain from using it, read a spoiler, stop after first sentence, flip through books, look at illustrations, talk about books, buy books, shove around minis, do without, be a juggler, kill the mime, see the seer, ride a magic carpet, be rational, eat big kahuna burgers, meet at a tavern.

In short: Gimme adventure! Where does theory help me? In no way, I say.

Quote from: Elliot WilenOkay, so, for the sake of this thread, what would you call a series of linearly-linked or minimally branching scenes, planned out beforehand, and designed to culminate in a particular scene with an expected outcome? Since that's kind of a bitch to type every time.

Still Plot because if you are using any type of rule system there going to be a random so HOW you reach the expected outcome is going to be different. If the GM is good the players won't notice the railroad. Otherwise with a poor GM they will feel railroaded as the plot structure becomes very apparent.

The way a good GM would have a linear plot work is by knowing his players. Setting up each scene so that players motivation will propel them to the next one.  If it location based then have what they find at the one location naturally lead them to the next. It not easy but it can be done.

This is how a plot looks like in a boffer style LARP event because of limitations on staff numbers and logistics. Most LARP plots make for poor table-top plots. and vice versa. LARP plots generally take in account players actions in writing the next event.

Rob, think of it this way.

What Sett calls "Adventure RPGing" entails that if I want to strategize in a game, I have to use game-world logic, not story logic. But I don't have to strategize if I don't want to.

What Sett calls "Thematic RPGing" entails that if I want to strategize in a game, I must use story logic, not game-world logic.

I think in the latter case strategizing will often if not always entail trying to "play to" the aesthetic/dramatic sensibilities of the other players (and GM) , though I wouldn't put too fine a point on this.

Quote from: KoltarBullshit.

 A typical RPG campaign will resemble a better-written eposodic action-adventure TV series at some point.


- Ed C.

Not mine. They more resemble a Jack Vance story about resourceful protagonists trying to survive in a weird and hostile world. No back story. No evolving PC relationships. No sisters to save from villains. No moral quanderies. No Big Bad Guy, or Mooks, or relationship webs. Just a cool setting, some vividly etched NPCs, and the PCs wandering around interracting with it all in a very freestyle 'in the moment' fashion.

There's a reason nobody has ever attempted to adapt a Jack Vance story to a comic, movie, or tv series - his approach confounds just about every dramatic expection of today's pop culture audiences.

Gee Sett aren't those a challenge

Quote from: Elliot WilenRob, think of it this way.

What Sett calls "Adventure RPGing" entails that if I want to strategize in a game, I have to use game-world logic, not story logic. But I don't have to strategize if I don't want to.

And if your game emulate the real world or in my case the real world with a heavy dose of fantasy elements.

What you are calling strategy must something different than what I understand when playing a game, RPG or not. Mind you I ran into players that definitely play with no strategy. Their results was less than stellar and often resulted in character death. Not by GM fiat but by the dice.

Quote from: estarThe part I have difficulty with Sett's statements is that it doesn't fit any example of actual play I seen. I think I understand his play style however what he is describing isn't what I found players, like him, have a problem with.

What frankly baffles me a bit is that this approach of "setting up a situation, considering how the events will unfold unless the PCs intervene or what might happen if they do, and then letting things run their course" is very much how I've always run each and every RPG. Heck, that's how you run Nobilis by the book.

It's not complicated. For instance, suppose that to begin with, at the bottom of a dungeon there's a monster which the PCs for reasons of their own must confront. Perhaps they'll overcome it, or perhaps they'll die trying, or perhaps somewhere along the way they'll realize that they are in over their heads and try to escape back to the surface: all those are acceptable endings, at least for the time being. Whatever takes place between those extremes is the story told by the group of players. And that is what stories in RPGs mean to me.

Quote from: Elliot WilenRob, think of it this way.

What Sett calls "Adventure RPGing" entails that -

Settembrini rants in a muddled and incoherent fashion, others interpret for him, trying to make it sounds sensible.

Settembrini's journey to the RonEdwards side is complete.