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It's that time again! (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/gz8zlu/racism_in_dd/) Grab your popcorn and enjoy the beating of a dead equine!

QuoteRacism in Dungeons and Dragon

Because of current events, the topic of racism is all I have been thinking about lately. D&D is my favourite pastime and something I love to debate and discuss and play. I have no qualifications to lean on, I am not a person of colour, if this post makes you uncomfortable I encourage you to sit in the feeling for a moment. This post does not say you are a racist for playing Dungeons and Dragons, this post does not say you have committed a moral sin by enjoying D&D. This post is about some of the uncomfortable history, tropes, and conventions of D&D and how it relates to racism.

Influence

Gary Gygax and the other creators of D&D were influenced by pulp fantasy and science fiction of Lovecraft, Howard and Weird Tales. The xenophobia and racism in those stories is well documented and obvious. We can see that influence in the way D&D encourages the dichotomy between civilization and wilderness. Between savage races and civilized races. If you were a POC (person of colour) at the gaming table, would any of these tropes remind you of other stories throughout history? Would it make you feel uncomfortable?

Conventions and Tropes

Think of how we describe our characters and what we say and don't say. We usually don't say, "I am a white elf wearing leather armour." Characters are often assumed to be white, a black npc or character has to explicitly call out their skin colour. The setting is assumed to be medieval western Europe, and cultures influenced by Asian or African cultures come from far away, thy are exotic and different and need to justify why they have made the long trek to the starting point of the campaign. Of course, there are always exception to this, but the majority of the official content makes this assumption.

The uncomfortable use of the word race.

The second thing you do in D&D is pick you race. In D&D "race" means a very different thing than it does in the real world. In D&D, "race" describes a biological, genetically distinct species. In real life we use race to describe different cultures of people. There is ample evidence of white culture manufacturing biological differences to justify slavery, apartheid, and discrimination. We really should say in D&D to pick your species, but the convention has remained.

When you talk about "Race" in D&D remember that that it can be a loaded word. In the monster manual, the Orc race is described as "savage humanoids with stooped postures, piggish faces, and prominent teeth that resemble tusks." In the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien describes the race of men of Far Harad as "black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." The descriptions and language we use can do real harm, and it can prevent people from feeling included, wanted and welcomed at the table.

There is more that could be said, but I'm not an expert and don't want to speak for others that have felt discrimination at the D&D table. The party I play with are all white and so there is no one to call us out for our behaviour unless we do it ourselves. I know as the DM I have said things that would cause eye-rolling at best and pain and hurt at worst; never because I meant it, but because of my ignorance and privilege. For me dungeons and dragons is an escape from the pain and horrors of the real world, I would want it to be that for everyone.

So much flagellation for something that makes little sense.

QuoteRacism in Dungeons and Dragon

Because of current events, the topic of racism is all I have been thinking about lately. D&D is my favourite pastime and something I love to debate and discuss and play. I have no qualifications to lean on, I am not a person of colour, if this post makes you uncomfortable I encourage you to sit in the feeling for a moment. This post does not say you are a racist for playing Dungeons and Dragons, this post does not say you have committed a moral sin by enjoying D&D. This post is about some of the uncomfortable history, tropes, and conventions of D&D and how it relates to racism.

Well, it's awful nice of them to give us an indulgence for enjoying a game of D&D, isn't it? How generous of them. They're already starting off on the wrong foot here.

QuoteInfluence

Gary Gygax and the other creators of D&D were influenced by pulp fantasy and science fiction of Lovecraft, Howard and Weird Tales. The xenophobia and racism in those stories is well documented and obvious. We can see that influence in the way D&D encourages the dichotomy between civilization and wilderness. Between savage races and civilized races. If you were a POC (person of colour) at the gaming table, would any of these tropes remind you of other stories throughout history? Would it make you feel uncomfortable?

Classy, attacking dead men who can't fight back. And while there was fantastic racism in the Conan series, I'd hardly say it was close to 'modern' racism. Lovecraft was more overtly racist, but there's issues with picking on him since his behavior may have been the result of mental illness.

QuoteConventions and Tropes

Think of how we describe our characters and what we say and don't say. We usually don't say, "I am a white elf wearing leather armour." Characters are often assumed to be white, a black npc or character has to explicitly call out their skin colour. The setting is assumed to be medieval western Europe, and cultures influenced by Asian or African cultures come from far away, thy are exotic and different and need to justify why they have made the long trek to the starting point of the campaign. Of course, there are always exception to this, but the majority of the official content makes this assumption.

Is this because of racism or because most D&D games start in a pseudo-Western Europe setting? I bet the writer was one of those guys that bitched about how there weren't any blackies in Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Dork.

That being said, if you're describing your character you should describe the skin color, as it helps flesh out characters. Are you a pasty-faced fellow who spent all day indoors with his books, or are you heavily tanned from working in the herbal garden of your arcane instructor? Maybe you're dark skinned from the blood of Osirion in your veins, with red hair, suggesting a link to the royal line (if distant)?

QuoteThe uncomfortable use of the word race.

The second thing you do in D&D is pick you race. In D&D "race" means a very different thing than it does in the real world. In D&D, "race" describes a biological, genetically distinct species. In real life we use race to describe different cultures of people. There is ample evidence of white culture manufacturing biological differences to justify slavery, apartheid, and discrimination. We really should say in D&D to pick your species, but the convention has remained.

When you talk about "Race" in D&D remember that that it can be a loaded word. In the monster manual, the Orc race is described as "savage humanoids with stooped postures, piggish faces, and prominent teeth that resemble tusks." In the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien describes the race of men of Far Harad as "black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." The descriptions and language we use can do real harm, and it can prevent people from feeling included, wanted and welcomed at the table.

Whaaaaaat. I can't even think of any situation where someone objected to the term 'race'. Although this explains PF2's use of 'ancestry'.

This is retarded. I'm gonna go play some Savage Worlds now. Thnxbye.

Reddit...might as well just say Fuckwit.

Here's my honest opinion: WHO GIVES A FUCK

YAWN!  Is it last week again?  With COVID - 19 and 'racism' in D&D it's hard to tell these days.

Just more white middle class guilt...

Orcs, elves, dwarves, and all that shit  will be classed as race in my games. They have nothing to do with reality. It's a game FFS people.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1133254Whaaaaaat. I can't even think of any situation where someone objected to the term 'race'. Although this explains PF2's use of 'ancestry'.

It has always bugged me a little, just for being the wrong word for what it described. But 'species' doesn't feel right for most fantasy games either, too modern scientific.
'people' or 'faction' sit a bit better with me.

"I'm not an expert. I'm just a guilty middle class white guy that plays only with other guilty middle class white guys projecting my ideological nonsense onto people, but of "color" (unlike those default, normal people who have no color), or POC (you know, like that BLACK thing people beat around in hockey)."

^That guy summarized.

Gotta love people who always feel the need to specify that a certain group of people they love to speak in behalf of specifically have "color" while complaining about how racist is that you supposedly only specify your character's color when they're not "white" (which is bullshit, cuz I always specify whether my "white" characters are pale, rosy skinned, deeply tanned, etc.).

On second thought let us not go to Reddit, for like TBP & Camelot, tis but a silly place... :D

Let me go check my old D&D books, to make sure they haven't been "whitewashed" yet....

Nope, all is well.

Just another white middle-class guy who hopes by flagellating himself he'll get hundreds/thousands of updoots and a dopamine hit. Nothing more, nothing less, but at least it's at 0 Updoots.

The way I internally understand "race" comes more from fantasy games then the real world. So in my head humans are all the same race with trivial differences and actual different races are things like elves and dwarves, sapient creatures with drastically different biology and probably made by different gods.

Things like D&D can redefine what different "races" are for people and chip away at racism in the real world by just being popular and redefining the word. I do not think that is a bad thing.

On the flip-side, calling races things like Ancestry or culture imply that actual racial differences are equivalent to the differences between Elves, Orcs, and Humans which is racist as all hell.

Such a tired retread of past manifestos.  Some people just seen determined to have their little moment of epiphany, despite how many search returns this topic would have provided them.

It wasn't an issue in RPG systems before people started making it one.  I cannot for the life of me remember a time that anyone was turned away from a table, other than a reputation as a sh*t disturber.
 Until people gave a reason not to be at the table, all were welcome as the hobby was heavy on the outcast and nerd factor so we were happy to have new players.

People reading way, way too much into things and deriving some pretty outlandish interpretations of RPG written work, just so they can shoehorn it into their ideology.

Falling over themselves to apologize on behalf of everyone for imagined affronts is just silly and frankly embarrassing.  Really wish people wouldn't keep creating these hills to die on as it's messing up the landscape of an open playing field for all:  as it always was.

Edit:  I also feel that many have not really read Gygax's work otherwise they would have seen that he wrote very much in support of welcoming all to the hobby.  People just like to cherrypick their thing and go wild with it.

See signature.

I love how in the RPGnet version of this post they slander me as a "quasi-white supremacist" and in the same page bemoan the fact that "wizards has never hired Latinos" (they misspell it the anglicized "latinx", of course), not recognizing that I was a Latino hire.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1133320I love how in the RPGnet version of this post they slander me as a "quasi-white supremacist" and in the same page bemoan the fact that "wizards has never hired Latinos" (they misspell it the anglicized "latinx", of course), not recognizing that I was a Latino hire.

Unless you wear a sombrero and pick watermelons, you don't count as a REAL latino!

I'll admit to not being fond of the term Race, but as someone pointed out above, it's solely because it's the wrong word and I'd like it back for it's actual use (ex. The races of Elves, the races of Men) as it's much handier in pre-Modern settings where Nation-States aren't as well defined.

But as has also been pointed out; species is a bit too scientific sounding for most fantasy while the idiocy of "ancestry" and "lineage" is even worse because those are generally even tighter definitions than race is... while at the same time opening up all sorts of weirdness.

Fantasy example; depending on where you start counting, Aragon (human) and Arwen (elf) actually share the same lineage because they share a common ancestor.

And then you get into oddball territory where you're playing a golem or embodied spirit where species still doesn't feel broad enough.

Enough so that there are times I wonder if may "Genus" might be the better term. It's got an older sound to it than species (it dates back to Aristotle using it in his works on biology) and has the meaning of "kind" (ex. Bird, Dog, Fish) while Eidos was used for a specific form (ex. Crows, Rottweilers, Carp).

And even that probably isn't enough really... Embodied spirits probably count as a completely separate domain of life forms and golems may not even qualify as life at all.

I'm actually very encouraged by the various responses that amount to, "this dude is full of shit".

Had he posted on /r/rpg he'd have had the woke crowd congratulating him on his newfound enlightenment and thanking him for his public penance.

What is a "quasi white supremacist"?  I always thought of that as an all in or all out.

"Because of current events, the topic of racism is all I have been thinks my about lately."

See there was the problem, right there. If you are not thinking about a nice piece of ass of whatever persuasion you prefer every few minutes, life gets too complicated.

Even a piece of make believe ass. World needs to let it go Snow Queen style.

Totally checks out. I am Savage, and I approve of this message.

Reddit is muff cabbage!
RPGnet? Bizarre.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1133345Reddit is muff cabbage!
RPGnet? Bizarre.

So what are the dreaded chumps and chumpettes bleating on about over on the putrid purple? I've been banned so I can't see. :)

Quote from: The Exploited.;1133348So what are the dreaded chumps and chumpettes bleating on about over on the putrid purple? I've been banned so I can't see. :)

Mee too!
Sucks they don't realize they're the problem.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1133357Mee too!
Sucks they don't realize they're the problem.

Aye mate, one big kum bah yah echo chamber.

Quote from: Simlasa;1133274It has always bugged me a little, just for being the wrong word for what it described. But 'species' doesn't feel right for most fantasy games either, too modern scientific.
'people' or 'faction' sit a bit better with me.

Species was used to mean "type" or "kind" before it was used as a "scientific" word, and it came into use in that sense around the time period that D&D's technology emulates, maybe a few decades later. It's not really a bad word to use. The biggest reason not to use it is because "race" works just fine.

Quote from: oggsmash;1133339What is a "quasi white supremacist"?  I always thought of that as an all in or all out.

I assume it is something like "We don't have anything even marginally damning on the guy in this department... but he might be one!"

It usually goes like this:
1) Batshit insane SJWs hysterically pin labels on people they don't like.
2) Slightly less batshit insane SJWs repeat the accusations.
3) The word spreads until it is something "everyone knows".
4) There is no source to debunk because it is often only a tweet or former tweet. There is no originator to take to task because it is inevitably a shrieking harpy with mental issues, or someone LARPing as a catgirl. And if you cross-examined them, you would be a monster for atacking people with Muh Trauma.

So, gossiping fishwives.

A quasi-white-supremacist to SJWs is someone who thinks (a) anyone of any race can be part of Western civilisation and (b) Western civilisation is a good, possibly best, civilisation.

They define (a), ie the lack of racism, as racist. (b) is Western supremacist. Hence quasi-white Supremacist.

Quote from: Melan;1133375I assume it is something like "We don't have anything even marginally damning on the guy in this department... but he might be one!"

It usually goes like this:
1) Batshit insane SJWs hysterically pin labels on people they don't like.
2) Slightly less batshit insane SJWs repeat the accusations.
3) The word spreads until it is something "everyone knows".
4) There is no source to debunk because it is often only a tweet or former tweet. There is no originator to take to task because it is inevitably a shrieking harpy with mental issues, or someone LARPing as a catgirl. And if you cross-examined them, you would be a monster for atacking people with Muh Trauma.

So, gossiping fishwives.

"Gossiping fishwives", has a nice Lovecraftian vibe to it.

Quote from: Brad;1133328Unless you wear a sombrero and pick watermelons, you don't count as a REAL latino!

But 2020 has brought us Chainsaw Mexicans!

Sombreros are cool hats. We gotta get a movement that declares NOT wearing a sombrero is racist.

#SombreroSolidarity

Quote from: RPGPundit;1133320I love how in the RPGnet version of this post they slander me as a "quasi-white supremacist" and in the same page bemoan the fact that "wizards has never hired Latinos" (they misspell it the anglicized "latinx", of course), not recognizing that I was a Latino hire.

Quasi? That means you've been slacking on Twitter.

They're losing faith in your ability to provoke their outrage and demoted you to quasi-status!

Quote from: jeff37923;1133386"Gossiping fishwives", has a nice Lovecraftian vibe to it.

Even the Deep Ones have Karens!!!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1133320I love how in the RPGnet version of this post they slander me as a "quasi-white supremacist" and in the same page bemoan the fact that "wizards has never hired Latinos" (they misspell it the anglicized "latinx", of course), not recognizing that I was a Latino hire.

I saw the thread and it was one of the mods who is also a staff member.

QuoteBecause of current events, the topic of racism is all I have been thinking about lately...

Emphasis added.

Whoever wrote this probably suffers from depression. It is common place for people to self-medicate mental illness by latching on to political movements and ideologies, which in anthropology are called cults of desperation. I know a number of people who have suddenly become maniacally (literally, as they are bi-polar) obsessed with "black lives matter".

Quote from: RPGPundit;1133320I love how in the RPGnet version of this post they slander me as a "quasi-white supremacist" and in the same page bemoan the fact that "wizards has never hired Latinos" (they misspell it the anglicized "latinx", of course), not recognizing that I was a Latino hire.

Oh no sir, like all Latinos you are a magical quantum entity.  A Latino is only a minority until they do something unpopular, at which moment they become and always have been white.

Quote from: Valatar;1133404Oh no sir, like all Latinos you are a magical quantum entity.  A Latino is only a minority until they do something unpopular, at which moment they become and always have been white.

This. It's why I specially dislike white liberals. It has not happened to me directly, but more than one time I've seen some asshole SJW, White-Savior wannabe tell a Latin@, "You look  pretty light skinned to me" when they dare challenge something they said.  Funny, most of the time we ain't White enough, except when it's convenient. It's the Schrodinger's Latin@ syndrome.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1133320I love how in the RPGnet version of this post they slander me as a "quasi-white supremacist" and in the same page bemoan the fact that "wizards has never hired Latinos" (they misspell it the anglicized "latinx", of course), not recognizing that I was a Latino hire.

Huh. I'll confess, I hadn't thought of you as Latino. I had thought that you were a white Canadian who had moved to Uruguay, but that you weren't Latino by background. I realize you don't talk about yourself much, Pundit, and this surprised me a little.

For example, my ex-father-in-law grew up in Venezuela, but he doesn't consider himself Latino. (His father was from New England and worked for the oil company there.)

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1133408This. It's why I specially dislike white liberals. It has not happened to me directly, but more than one time I've seen some asshole SJW, White-Savior wannabe tell a Latin@, "You look  pretty light skinned to me" when they dare challenge something they said.  Funny, most of the time we ain't White enough, except when it's convenient. It's the Schrodinger's Latin@ syndrome.

To the AltWight we're not white enough
To the Ctrl-Left we're too white (if we dare disagree with them)

I think both are too obsessed with race not to be REAL racists.

Quote from: jhkim;1133428Huh. I'll confess, I hadn't thought of you as Latino. I had thought that you were a white Canadian who had moved to Uruguay, but that you weren't Latino by background. I realize you don't talk about yourself much, Pundit, and this surprised me a little.

For example, my ex-father-in-law grew up in Venezuela, but he doesn't consider himself Latino. (His father was from New England and worked for the oil company there.)

Well, since Latino isn't a race nor an ethnicity but a culture (sort of), I say someone born and bred in México from foreign parents can (and many times is) more of a Latino than someone born of Latino parents in the USA.

Edited to add:

That being said, Pundit speaks perfect Spanish, which shows that he learned while in Canada, he knows how Latinos think and feel about lots of issues and shares many of those views. And he can be seen in his vids partaking of some of those cultural landmarks.

If you still doubt it go take a look at my YT channel, there's a vid where he and I discuss stuff in the TTRPG hobby in Spanish.

Quote from: jhkimHuh. I'll confess, I hadn't thought of you as Latino. I had thought that you were a white Canadian who had moved to Uruguay, but that you weren't Latino by background. I realize you don't talk about yourself much, Pundit, and this surprised me a little.

For example, my ex-father-in-law grew up in Venezuela, but he doesn't consider himself Latino. (His father was from New England and worked for the oil company there.)

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133443Well, since Latino isn't a race nor an ethnicity but a culture (sort of), I say someone born and bred in México from foreign parents can (and many times is) more of a Latino than someone born of Latino parents in the USA.

Edited to add:

That being said, Pundit speaks perfect Spanish, which shows that he learned while in Canada, he knows how Latinos think and feel about lots of issues and shares many of those views. And he can be seen in his vids partaking of some of those cultural landmarks.

I don't think it's useful to talk about who's more Latino than who. I would agree that someone born and raised in Mexico from foreign parents *can be* Latino.

But, for example, my ex-father-in-law speaks perfect Spanish, and understands about many Latino issues, but neither he nor I would call him Latino. He grew up with other American kids in an oil company enclave in Venezuela, and his family are all American.

I don't know what Pundit's background is - I just was surprised to learn that he considered himself Latino, since that hadn't been my impression of him previously.

Quote from: jhkim;1133462I don't think it's useful to talk about who's more Latino than who. I would agree that someone born and raised in Mexico from foreign parents *can be* Latino.

But, for example, my ex-father-in-law speaks perfect Spanish, and understands about many Latino issues, but neither he nor I would call him Latino. He grew up with other American kids in an oil company enclave in Venezuela, and his family are all American.

I don't know what Pundit's background is - I just was surprised to learn that he considered himself Latino, since that hadn't been my impression of him previously.

I do find talking about who IS or isn't Latino very useful, since many gringos are currently trying to speak for us and to impose on us their woke culture. Sorry, your last name doesn't make you Latino, neither does your skin color.

In case of doubt, if you use unironically "Latinx" chances are you're not a Latino.

But are the Latino girls hot and crazy like they say? :D

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1133470But are the Latino girls hot and crazy like they say? :D

Latino
Girl

Son, I got some bad news...haha

In all seriousness, I dated a few of them, and the stereotypes are real. Never a dull moment, the crazy is exponentially increased based on the hotness, but that's pretty much every girl I think.

Quote from: Brad;1133471Latino
Girl

Son, I got some bad news...haha

In all seriousness, I dated a few of them, and the stereotypes are real. Never a dull moment, the crazy is exponentially increased based on the hotness, but that's pretty much every girl I think.

Akchually....

Ghostmaker wrote it correctly, if he had written Latina Girl then he would be wrong. Because Latina is almost 100% of the time only about females.

I think the Latinas you dated are like that because of your culture and schools.

Not that there aren't any crazies here, but not more prevalent than you would expect from any population.

No more crazy or hot than other chicks, lol. You could make an argument that as a general population they might proyect a more conservative image, but that is changing. This happened in Mexico not too long ago (GeekyBugle might have more to say). In the middle of a feminist protest, she began this performance dance:

[video=youtube;Tg6gwRTGMvg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg6gwRTGMvg[/youtube]

Of course, this parody felt like a natural Latin@ response, because I've noticed we tend to laugh so we don't have to cry (Ruben Blades anyone?). The man is dancing for all those dudes whose girlfriends prevent from going out to drink with their buddies:

[video=youtube;6MtCvf7ih8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MtCvf7ih8o[/youtube]

That was new style voguing ending with a death drop & hair twirl, by the way. (She should have been way lower for a proper duck walk however. But at least she tried.) The guy's interpretation added an ass shimmy at the end. :) And now you know!

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1133582No more crazy or hot than other chicks, lol. You could make an argument that as a general population they might proyect a more conservative image, but that is changing. This happened in Mexico not too long ago (GeekyBugle might have more to say). In the middle of a feminist protest, she began this performance dance:

[video=youtube;Tg6gwRTGMvg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg6gwRTGMvg[/youtube]

Of course, this parody felt like a natural Latin@ response, because I've noticed we tend to laugh so we don't have to cry (Ruben Blades anyone?). The man is dancing for all those dudes whose girlfriends prevent from going out to drink with their buddies:

[video=youtube;6MtCvf7ih8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MtCvf7ih8o[/youtube]

México is a weird place, our biggest city and capital (México City) is rapidly transforming into some imitation of NYC, LA, Seattle, etc. But, even here most people are slightly left of center or right of center.

While the rest of the country is very conservative, and you can find women dressed and dancing in a sexual manner at parties and clubs, hell you could be the BF, and still get exactly zero horizontal mambo afterwards. They like to turn on the water heater and not getting in the shower (best translation I could come up of a Mexican saying).

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133467I do find talking about who IS or isn't Latino very useful, since many gringos are currently trying to speak for us and to impose on us their woke culture. Sorry, your last name doesn't make you Latino, neither does your skin color.

In case of doubt, if you use unironically "Latinx" chances are you're not a Latino.

Tell me about it...

I'm part Filipino, grew up there, I'm half Cajun on my dad's side. Filipinos are like the Mexicans of Asia, we all have Spanish-oid surnames (they scoured native language and culture as best they could over 350-years of enslaving them), we have a LOT of Spanish DNA delivered by the usual means in times of conquest. But to a lot of "Fancy Asians" (Koreans, Japanese, Chinese) and some "Jungle Asians" (Asians that aren't 'Fancy Asians'), Filipinos are not "Asian enough", they call us Islanders. Interestingly, islander cultures think Filipinos are not islanders (despite the fact we literally live on thousands of islands in the Pacific), but I chalk it up to cultural differences.

Whereas I have some good friends that were born in Mexico city, who *despise* being called Mexican, as he considers himself Spanish. He loves to remind people his last name is Marques with an "S" not a "Z". While my Mexican friends love to give him shit about it and call him out on it all the time. My Portuguese friend in my crowd does the same thing - my Mexican friends tease him about being Mexican (he's not - they're just fucking with him) but he does the whole "Fernandes-with-an-S-not-Z" thing.

so for me, as a half-Cajun-Asian, I just laugh/scoff at the whole thing. I'm at ease in nearly any culture - mainly because I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about my appearance (which is a genetic monstrosity), but once they get to know me, that generally will swing their opinion. Even among the racist elements of my family and in-laws whom I've converted by actions and ideas, not appearances.

The whole thing with leftists trying to de-genderize language... is going to be a monumental (and idiotic) undertaking. It goes far beyond Latin cultures that gender-specify their language. This is just more social-engineering looking to create conflict for the purposes of thought-control.

Quote from: tenbones;1133615Tell me about it...

I'm part Filipino, grew up there, I'm half Cajun on my dad's side. Filipinos are like the Mexicans of Asia, we all have Spanish-oid surnames (they scoured native language and culture as best they could over 350-years of enslaving them), we have a LOT of Spanish DNA delivered by the usual means in times of conquest. But to a lot of "Fancy Asians" (Koreans, Japanese, Chinese) and some "Jungle Asians" (Asians that aren't 'Fancy Asians'), Filipinos are not "Asian enough", they call us Islanders. Interestingly, islander cultures think Filipinos are not islanders (despite the fact we literally live on thousands of islands in the Pacific), but I chalk it up to cultural differences.

Whereas I have some good friends that were born in Mexico city, who *despise* being called Mexican, as he considers himself Spanish. He loves to remind people his last name is Marques with an "S" not a "Z". While my Mexican friends love to give him shit about it and call him out on it all the time. My Portuguese friend in my crowd does the same thing - my Mexican friends tease him about being Mexican (he's not - they're just fucking with him) but he does the whole "Fernandes-with-an-S-not-Z" thing.

so for me, as a half-Cajun-Asian, I just laugh/scoff at the whole thing. I'm at ease in nearly any culture - mainly because I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about my appearance (which is a genetic monstrosity), but once they get to know me, that generally will swing their opinion. Even among the racist elements of my family and in-laws whom I've converted by actions and ideas, not appearances.

The whole thing with leftists trying to de-genderize language... is going to be a monumental (and idiotic) undertaking. It goes far beyond Latin cultures that gender-specify their language. This is just more social-engineering looking to create conflict for the purposes of thought-control.

It's Cultural Imperialism and racism disguised (poorly) as good intentions. I don't need nor want their Lilly white asses to "save" me thank you very much.

It's the white man's burden and they can stick it up their arses.

In my daily life I couldn't care less about your color/sex/sexuality/culture unless you're trying to impose things on me. I happen to think there's no such thing as Latino Culture, because Mexican's don't really have much in common (culturally) with say Argentinians besides almost the same language (Pendejo here is an insult, there it isn't), and being Catholics most of them.

The same goes for any other Latin American country you care to mention. Almost nothing in common with their closest neighbors, much less with the ones farther away. Hell wanna make an Uruguayan mad? Call him/her an Argentinian. And they share an accent, cuisine and yes even the music and Gauchos.

I wonder if the hot/crazy scale is a American thing, caused by spread of American culture, or universal to humans.

I agree there's no Latino, no White, no Black "culture" because I don't think you can maintain an actual unified culture over too much geography. The USA does not have a unified culture. Even among the Evil Honkies, there are significant cultural differences in various regions, especially before the rise of television. Even the US doesn't have a Latino culture. The Mexican-Americans in the Southwest and the Cuban-Americans in Florida may both be Catholic and many speak Spanish, but there's still significant cultural differences.

Also, in the USA, as much as the race baiters hate to admit it, culture is FAR more class based. As the comedian Theo Von says, there was no diversity where he grew up...only poor blacks and poor whites.

Even more to the point that you, Spinachat and Geeky are making...

White liberals here in the U.S. that are so obsessed with racism, clearly haven't travelled abroad. Chinese and Japanese, in particular are *massively* racist by American liberal standards - and any other standard. Sure they have their favorites to dislike, but in no way shape or form would any level of what is normal in most third-world nations tolerable to white leftist standards they apply to white people here in the U.S.

that's why it looks REALLY insane to those of us that have lived abroad. It's like watching a girlfriend that likes to cut-themselves threatening to cut her own arm off if you don't bend the knee to her crazy-wishes.

Quote from: tenbones;1133684Even more to the point that you, Spinachat and Geeky are making...

White liberals here in the U.S. that are so obsessed with racism, clearly haven't travelled abroad. Chinese and Japanese, in particular are *massively* racist by American liberal standards - and any other standard. Sure they have their favorites to dislike, but in no way shape or form would any level of what is normal in most third-world nations tolerable to white leftist standards they apply to white people here in the U.S.

that's why it looks REALLY insane to those of us that have lived abroad. It's like watching a girlfriend that likes to cut-themselves threatening to cut her own arm off if you don't bend the knee to her crazy-wishes.

Yeah, but we have cops not following procedure, policy, or the law to kill black people. There is a not insignificant amount of people that think being openly racist is an OK thing to be. So while maybe a few months ago, I would have been more concerned about the pearl clutching SJWs. Actual neo-nazis are attacking international media in my own country. So the pearl clutching is getting a pass from me for the near future. It's not good, but plenty of actual racist are dog-whistling complaining about it and they just need to learn that being racist isn't OK.

Does this mean silly things like Magic cards getting canceled and certain lazy depictions of orcs in D&D getting rework? Yeah, but whatever. I'll be worried after cops go back to at least following the law. It just ranks lower on the priority list.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1133691Yeah, but we have cops not following procedure, policy, or the law to kill black people. There is a not insignificant amount of people that think being openly racist is an OK thing to be. So while maybe a few months ago, I would have been more concerned about the pearl clutching SJWs. Actual neo-nazis are attacking international media in my own country. So the pearl clutching is getting a pass from me for the near future. It's not good, but plenty of actual racist are dog-whistling complaining about it and they just need to learn that being racist isn't OK.

Does this mean silly things like Magic cards getting canceled and certain lazy depictions of orcs in D&D getting rework? Yeah, but whatever. I'll be worried after cops go back to at least following the law. It just ranks lower on the priority list.

Actual racists like the SJWs? Because they judge people based on race, they think we poor non-whites need special treatment to compete with whitey mcwhite, as for the "actual Neo-nazis" where exactly is that? Because since I have been accused by so many insane leftists of being one I tend now to doubt any such accusations.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1133691Yeah, but we have cops not following procedure, policy, or the law to kill black people.

Cops kill more whites than blacks.
Black cops kill more blacks than white cops.
Blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks.
Blacks kill more blacks than anyone else.

This is the unfortunate truth backed up with real data. The Burn Loot Murder race hoax is dangerous and harmful nonsense, but the media loves perpetuating the victimhood narrative on non-whites and enforcing white liberals' beloved bigotry of lowered expectations.

The biggest danger to blacks and whites isn't each other. It's the media and the leftists.

Hell, there's every reason for blacks and whites of the same economic class to be natural allies.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1133691There is a not insignificant amount of people that think being openly racist is an OK thing to be.

We can't stop all these "peaceful protesters" from hating white people because of the color of their skin, especially when the media is declaring anti-white racism to be a virtue. Those racists will have to come to their own personal reckoning.

The real danger to national unity isn't the "openly racist", it's the silent majority declaring segregation is the best answer going forward.

But since last week was "defund the police", the leftist's demand next week might be "forced segregation". There's no bottom to white liberal's true disdain for a non-white person's ability to determine their own future.

I'm totally expecting the Democrats to demand "No White Neighborhoods" before the month ends.

You know, to protect the coloreds! Oops, I mean people of color. So hard to remember that one. :D

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133710You know, to protect the coloreds! Oops, I mean people of color. So hard to remember that one. :D

I heard a new one the other day:  Now we have both people of colour and non-black people of colour.

Quote from: Brad;1133256Reddit...might as well just say Fuckwit.

Here's my honest opinion: WHO GIVES A FUCK

Can I get the icons in corn flower blue? (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OUoKrdB9BjU)

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133704Actual racists like the SJWs? Because they judge people based on race, they think we poor non-whites need special treatment to compete with whitey mcwhite, as for the "actual Neo-nazis" where exactly is that? Because since I have been accused by so many insane leftists of being one I tend now to doubt any such accusations.

You may say I am jumping to conclusions, but for me the line was attacking press corps, on camera, where everyone could see them. There is unconscious bias and then there is viewing anyone the orange-man has a problem with as enemies that should be violently assaulted and shot at with crowd control less lethal devices. One lady in particular lost eye. For me, those are neo nazis. I've criticized the press and have many problems with how they do things, but at no point are they a threat that requires violence. If the cops want to be anti-constitution, then those cops are actual nazis. Aka racist fascist. Racist because a lot of the violence is explicitly against black people and fascist because they undermined our freedoms. There was an FBI report that warned against the secret infiltration of the police by white supremacist groups and the results have lined up with their predictions.

Oh and the cop who pushed over that old year 75 man. Idc that he was white. He has the right to assemble and the "just following orders" excuse gives no right to harm a harmless old guy. It wasn't a good enough excuse for the actual Nazis and our own military is required to disobey illegal orders. The cops shouldn't be less restricted than our armed forces.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1133723You may say I am jumping to conclusions, but for me the line was attacking press corps, on camera, where everyone could see them. There is unconscious bias and then there is viewing anyone the orange-man has a problem with as enemies that should be violently assaulted and shot at with crowd control less lethal devices. One lady in particular lost eye. For me, those are neo nazis. I've criticized the press and have many problems with how they do things, but at no point are they a threat that requires violence. If the cops want to be anti-constitution, then those cops are actual nazis. Aka racist fascist. Racist because a lot of the violence is explicitly against black people and fascist because they undermined our freedoms. There was an FBI report that warned against the secret infiltration of the police by white supremacist groups and the results have lined up with their predictions.

Oh and the cop who pushed over that old year 75 man. Idc that he was white. He has the right to assemble and the "just following orders" excuse gives no right to harm a harmless old guy. It wasn't a good enough excuse for the actual Nazis and our own military is required to disobey illegal orders. The cops shouldn't be less restricted than our armed forces.

So you really meant "actual" Neo-nazis...

Tell me, are all those who physically attack the press fall into this category? Because if yes then Antifart do that too, and do it constantly. 15 people have died during the riots, most of them black. As for police violence in your country being mainly white cop-black innocent victim...
I have bad news for you the facts don't support your assertions, but it's a nice concept for a shadowrun setting.

Well WotC is banning their own Magic Cards for having the word "black" in them in reference to to the color of the affected. I personally loved Crusade and Jihad back in the day... but you know.. boosting White (Crusade) and culturally appropriating the word "Jihad" is clearly racist.

Let's not get into the "Cleanse" card... which kills all black creatures in play. That's *super racist*. Because the color black in Magic now apparently is a racial reference. All these decades and I thought I understood? Who knew?

But you know.. that must mean there is secret racism all over D&D. We just need to keep hunting for those secret racist elements that clearly Mearls, Pundit and Zak snuck in there! Get the torches boys! girls! dragonkin! twinsouls! non-binaries! elfkin!... baobabkin! mudkin?  (fuck I dunno...)

Quote from: tenbones;1133731Well WotC is banning their own Magic Cards for having the word "black" in them in reference to to the color of the affected. I personally loved Crusade and Jihad back in the day... but you know.. boosting White (Crusade) and culturally appropriating the word "Jihad" is clearly racist.

Let's not get into the "Cleanse" card... which kills all black creatures in play. That's *super racist*. Because the color black in Magic now apparently is a racial reference. All these decades and I thought I understood? Who knew?

But you know.. that must mean there is secret racism all over D&D. We just need to keep hunting for those secret racist elements that clearly Mearls, Pundit and Zak snuck in there! Get the torches boys! girls! dragonkin! twinsouls! non-binaries! elfkin!... baobabkin! mudkin?  (fuck I dunno...)

The rot is deeper than that, after all it was created by huwhite, straight, and possibly christian, capitalist males! PUAGH!

Would you believe the same asshats that ban cards with reference to black magic wanted us Spanish Speaking Mexicans to stop using the word negro in reference to the color black? Because it is similar to a term used only in the USA about 50 years ago, never mind it's use in Spanish predates that by a few centuries.

We must change our culture to accommodate them.

In short, those who hear the dogwhistles are the dogs.

And this only encourages me into including my White, Grey, Black magic mechanic in my magic system... Just to spite them.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133710The biggest danger to blacks and whites isn't each other. It's the media and the leftists.

And the so-called "Left" is mostly a problem cuz the media parrots their nonsense and runs defense for them, normalizing it. Otherwise truer words have never been spoken. The mainstream media literally is The Enemy of The People.

The so-called "Left" (or followers of the cult of Intersectionality, more precisely) are just useful idiots for the elite.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133710Hell, there's every reason for blacks and whites of the same economic class to be natural allies.

Which, IMO, is precisely why The Enemy of The People parrots Intersectionalist propaganda, which has replaced the so-called "Left's" prior focus on class struggle. An emphasis on class can unite the common plebs. But "remind" non-whites how white people are inherently "privileged" and always have it better no matter how poor they are, and erase what poor white people go through, never report when they get killed by cops as well, then watch the lower classes go for each other's throats.

Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book. The media is the propagandist for the Establishment. And the Intersectional "Left" their useful idiots.

That's also why it's so important to search for imaginary racism in trading cards. It's all part of the normalization process and training people to think in terms of "race" and see instances of racism everywhere, like religious nut looking for the likeness of Jesus in a piece of toast.

Even in our games we must be ever vigilant for "offensive" material that we must fight about, pretending that it will solve our problems. Cuz divided people fighting about imaginary racism in trading cards aren't uniting to fight about real issues back in the real world.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133710You know, to protect the coloreds! Oops, I mean people of color. So hard to remember that one. :D

"People of color--unlike those default, normal people who have no color! They're (almost) like people, but of color!"

That's what the expression colored people, erm...I mean people of color always sounds like to me.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1133691Yeah, but we have cops not following procedure, policy, or the law to kill black people. There is a not insignificant amount of people that think being openly racist is an OK thing to be. So while maybe a few months ago, I would have been more concerned about the pearl clutching SJWs. Actual neo-nazis are attacking international media in my own country. So the pearl clutching is getting a pass from me for the near future. It's not good, but plenty of actual racist are dog-whistling complaining about it and they just need to learn that being racist isn't OK.

Does this mean silly things like Magic cards getting canceled and certain lazy depictions of orcs in D&D getting rework? Yeah, but whatever. I'll be worried after cops go back to at least following the law. It just ranks lower on the priority list.

Cops kill more whites than blacks.  It isn't a race thing.  It is a corruption thing that was going to be solved till Antifa and BLM started to riot.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133735And this only encourages me into including my White, Grey, Black magic mechanic in my magic system... Just to spite them.

See, ...and you thought I'm just being an unoriginal, crusty and stubborn old luddite to want to only run and play original D&D.

Seriously though, Rheydn is correct. The police clearly crossed a new line openly attacking the press corps, EMT people in riot zones, and people completely uninvolved in rioting who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (i.e. when the police were there openly practicing their fascism and with considerable contempt for the general population I would add).

One interesting development is the new separation of the Vice-President, Mike Pence, from the Orange Man. Before, Trump just about never went anywhere without the VP on his left shoulder, lending legitimacy to his tenure as chief executive of our nation. That changed though over the course of the last few weeks. Mike Pence is a very religious man, a christian from a large christian family in the bible belt. Pretty sure he broke paths with the President over the course of the protests, and especially after he sicked the Feds around the Whitehouse on protesters gassing them and forcing them into submission, just so the President could get a photo-op going to "Church". Pretty sure even they get it now, that he's a total nutcase that shouldn't be in charge of anything. Do know that I haven't seen Mike Pence in any photo with the president in at least a month, except when they were both down in Florida for the NASA/Spacex launch where America has restarted sending astronauts on our own spacecraft into space again. That photo-op was a backshot, where the VP was looking away from the camera, btw.


Yeah. arranging to beat people, just so he could go to Church! Great move there, showing his true colors! Even the VP couldn't ignore that.


Have to say I completely approve of defunding police departments, removing the dangerous weapons they have acquired over the last two decades, spending that money on community and social improvements instead, and getting the police refocused on protecting and serving the general population, instead of acting as terror agents for the oligarchs, and corporate overlords.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1133723You may say I am jumping to conclusions, but for me the line was attacking press corps, on camera, where everyone could see them. There is unconscious bias and then there is viewing anyone the orange-man has a problem with as enemies that should be violently assaulted and shot at with crowd control less lethal devices. One lady in particular lost eye. For me, those are neo nazis. I've criticized the press and have many problems with how they do things, but at no point are they a threat that requires violence. If the cops want to be anti-constitution, then those cops are actual nazis. Aka racist fascist. Racist because a lot of the violence is explicitly against black people and fascist because they undermined our freedoms. There was an FBI report that warned against the secret infiltration of the police by white supremacist groups and the results have lined up with their predictions.

Oh and the cop who pushed over that old year 75 man. Idc that he was white. He has the right to assemble and the "just following orders" excuse gives no right to harm a harmless old guy. It wasn't a good enough excuse for the actual Nazis and our own military is required to disobey illegal orders. The cops shouldn't be less restricted than our armed forces.

I was all in favor of protests against police brutality, and working towards improving the conditions of the places they patrol, instead of militarizing the police. But thanks to Antifa and BLM, this has become about their pet politics and the talk about reforms are lost in the din of black owned businesses being looted, and blacks being killed by the rioters.

I was in some big store, I think it was a Target or Walmart, and these two kids run by me to the toy aisle, grab some action figure or whatever, and talk among themselves about how cool it is.  Then run back past me with the toy to their parents and begin harassing them in Spanish to buy it.  That's what clearly showed me the "the immigrants aren't assimilating!" argument was completely wrong, since those kids were using English as their native language.  It's going to further muddy up the whole definition of Latino in years to come, since it's already stretched thin between Mexicans, Cubans, Central Americans, and South Americans, who aren't at all similar but get tossed in the same basket anyways, and now you have a generation of US-born kids who look "Mexican" but grew up immersed in US culture and English language.  I think that's why Latino is just used as whatever is most convenient to the person trying to score points from it; it's already a pretty meaningless identifier of any sort of ethnicity or culture.  I especially love whenever some dink tries to use Latino for people like Antonio Banderas.  Dude's fucking Spanish.  He was born in goddamn Spain.  He's European.

I actually quite like seeing the Press getting their fair comeuppance from the Police.

If the Press wanted to be treated like neutral reporters of the facts then they should have stayed neutral reporters of the facts.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133651It's Cultural Imperialism and racism disguised (poorly) as good intentions. I don't need nor want their Lilly white asses to "save" me thank you very much.

It's the white man's burden and they can stick it up their arses.

In my daily life I couldn't care less about your color/sex/sexuality/culture unless you're trying to impose things on me. I happen to think there's no such thing as Latino Culture, because Mexican's don't really have much in common (culturally) with say Argentinians besides almost the same language (Pendejo here is an insult, there it isn't), and being Catholics most of them.

The same goes for any other Latin American country you care to mention. Almost nothing in common with their closest neighbors, much less with the ones farther away. Hell wanna make an Uruguayan mad? Call him/her an Argentinian. And they share an accent, cuisine and yes even the music and Gauchos.

Don't worry, Geeky, the only thing I've gonna save you from are those tasty, tasty burritos :)

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133660I wonder if the hot/crazy scale is a American thing, caused by spread of American culture, or universal to humans.

100% real. Hottest girl I ever dated was Romanian and she was a psychotherapist's dream. Shouldn't have spent more than ten seconds with her, but I was 1) young and stupid, and 2) she was insanely hot. Why are dudes so dumb...

As for 75 year old activists getting knocked down by an advancing brigade of cops.....had he not been old and frail he would not have fallen, and WTF is he doing out trying to catch the covid and overwhelm the hospital system?  

    I dont think he should have been shoved at all, but he showed he is stupid as dog shit to walk up to people he feels are overly violent and get his frail self directly in their way.  Darwin got him.

Quote from: oggsmash;1133828As for 75 year old activists getting knocked down by an advancing brigade of cops.....had he not been old and frail he would not have fallen, and WTF is he doing out trying to catch the covid and overwhelm the hospital system?  

    I dont think he should have been shoved at all, but he showed he is stupid as dog shit to walk up to people he feels are overly violent and get his frail self directly in their way.  Darwin got him.

There is a LOT of speculation as to what he was actually doing. He's got a rep as a shit-stirrer and his blogger profile practically has 'I fought the law' hashmarks on it.

There's been some discussion that he was trying to use his phone (along with some other electronics) to try and grab the cops' radio frequences. Which strikes me as a remarkably stupid thing to do, but then, leftists are not usually smart. Plus, moving your hand anywhere near a cop's gun is seriously asking for trouble.

Quote from: Shasarak;1133765I actually quite like seeing the Press getting their fair comeuppance from the Police.

If the Press wanted to be treated like neutral reporters of the facts then they should have stayed neutral reporters of the facts.

That is an unortunate truth. News has instigated the riots against them for ratings and of course some are going to want to take it out on them. This is also part of this damn 20 year cycle as about every other one seems to have its version of media vultures riling people up for ratings. Sure was in the 70s.

Quote from: tenbones;1133731Well WotC is banning their own Magic Cards for having the word "black" in them in reference to to the color of the affected.

Am I the only one who's first thought on hearing this was "Hmmm... time to build an all-black deck? WotC's ensuring it will be INVINCIBLE!!!

I do not disagree, I also think if a vigorous shove sends you flying, you are living in some fantasy world about being a "freedom fighter".  What is with these people?  They say/feel they are brave, and fail to realize brave is only a thing when you know the consequences to your actions.  Not knowing there are consequences makes you stupid, not brave.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1133823Don't worry, Geeky, the only thing I've gonna save you from are those tasty, tasty burritos :)

LOL, save me, please save me! You're welcome to as many as you can eat my friend.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133850LOL, save me, please save me! You're welcome to as many as you can eat my friend.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4565[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Brad;1133826100% real. Hottest girl I ever dated was Romanian and she was a psychotherapist's dream. Shouldn't have spent more than ten seconds with her, but I was 1) young and stupid, and 2) she was insanely hot. Why are dudes so dumb...

There's enough Spanish-sounding cognates (false and not) in Romanian that it threw me for a loop -- and that was while I already knew it is a Romance language (along with hearing Romansh in Switzerland).

Are we sure it is not the language itself, or the blood? :D I do hope it's in the blood, at least in my blood, because then by magical logic that insanity should then also make me insanely hot! :p Just my luck though it probably doesn't work that way. :o

Quote from: Brad;1133826Why are dudes so dumb...

Because the penis is our primary frontal lobe. The one in our head is a secondary backup for when our wanker isn't focused on the situation at hand.

Based on the insane stories I've heard from my gay bros, the "penis brain" is universal in males.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133940Because the penis is our primary frontal lobe. The one in our head is a secondary backup for when our wanker isn't focused on the situation at hand.

Based on the insane stories I've heard from my gay bros, the "penis brain" is universal in males.

I am assuming this was unintentional and therefore I find it incredibly hilarious...

A reading of the World of Greyhawk box set is sufficient to prove the article author has the facts completely wrong.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1134045A reading of the World of Greyhawk box set is sufficient to prove the article author has the facts completely wrong.

But an emotional reaction to remembering the World of Greyhawk set is sufficient for the article author's feelings!

And in 2020, Feelings > Facts and debating that is.....waaaaycist!!!

Quote from: Lunamancer;1134045A reading of the World of Greyhawk box set is sufficient to prove the article author has the facts completely wrong.

Ohhhh youd like to think that. But people have argued even here that it just aint so and they dont count as "POC".

Quote from: Lunamancer;1134045A reading of the World of Greyhawk box set is sufficient to prove the article author has the facts completely wrong.

The article from the OP is pretty short and doesn't attempt to make much of a case. From comments, it also sounds like they've backed off some. The top comment (sorted by "Best") in my view was this:

QuoteI am a high school teacher, a DM for students and friends, as well as a black man in America. My students are all black Americans. I tend to create and utilize black characters more than a little bit for D&D but have been quite happy with the amount of characters of color and racial origins that allow my students to see characters and NPCs in official books and art of color. When we ran Waterdeep the students fell in love with Vajra Safahr, and she turned into a major character that I used in place of many others to kind of give them a relatable character who guided them as needed.

I tend to use all races to represent the world as a whole, as for them (students) it is less about race and more about representation which, often becomes a confused issue by many White Americans (can't speak for those outside of the US).

I find most things in D&D have been (at least in 3e/5e as well as from the games I've played and grew up with) have represented "blackness" in one way or the other, and that also allowed me to keep cultural/representative interest as I'm now 37 and have been playing for almost 20 years now.

Surprisingly, it is not actually an issue I have ever discussed or heard discussed within my "blerd" community as the game allows you to dream up your own characters and worlds and sure enough our worlds are always representative of all races and backgrounds (we don't focus on race much in a room together heh, I'm sure you don't much either).

I can't imagine racism or issues spawning from it involved in D&D but again, I have never played D&D with a non-PoC, it is interesting to imagine what those worlds look like but I still imagine it has a good deal to do with representation. Interesting topic of conversation though kudos to you for bringing it up.

I always felt like D&D was free from those real world issues, I've never not been a black man, unless it was the time I was a Half-Orc Barb or Kenku Bard heh. A safe haven where it was a reminder of reality.

And the article author responded:

QuoteThanks for the comment. I'm happy to hear your perspective. I'm not a POC and I don't pretend to know what might feel discriminating to you or not. I'm just hoping to open up the topic and increase self-reflection and empathy.

Is "blerd" a thing? That's awesome.

Quote from: jhkim;1134093The article from the OP is pretty short and doesn't attempt to make much of a case. From comments, it also sounds like they've backed off some. The top comment (sorted by "Best") in my view was this:



And the article author responded:

That poster sounds pretty racist to me...ONLY plays with blacks?

Quote from: Brad;1134120That poster sounds pretty racist to me...ONLY plays with blacks?

It's the USA. Most people only know people of the same race! :p

Quote from: Brad;1134120That poster sounds pretty racist to me...ONLY plays with blacks?

He has no choice Brad! Even LeBron "King" James gets hunted whenever he leaves his house! Hunted Brad!!! Hunted!!!

You gotta feel bad for non-whites in America, they are trapped here and can never emigrate to where they would be safe and happy.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134142He has no choice Brad! Even LeBron "King" James gets hunted whenever he leaves his house! Hunted Brad!!! Hunted!!!

You gotta feel bad for non-whites in America, they are trapped here and can never emigrate to where they would be safe and happy.

I was listening to Dave Chappelle and he said that racism is so bad that he is down to his last $50 million.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134142He has no choice Brad! Even LeBron "King" James gets hunted whenever he leaves his house! Hunted Brad!!! Hunted!!!

You gotta feel bad for non-whites in America, they are trapped here and can never emigrate to where they would be safe and happy.

The only thing LeBron is being hunted down for is his autograph...

One thing my D&D campaign isn't is woke, for me D&D is an escape, I don't want to talk about racial diversity in my campaign or representation of various minority groups. To me racial diversity in D&D is about the same as it was in Medeaval Europe among the humans, if you want to see blacks in a D&D campaign, you have to travel south into the tropics, if you want to see an Asian, you have to go east.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1134540One thing my D&D campaign isn't is woke, for me D&D is an escape, I don't want to talk about racial diversity in my campaign or representation of various minority groups. To me racial diversity in D&D is about the same as it was in Medeaval Europe among the humans, if you want to see blacks in a D&D campaign, you have to travel south into the tropics, if you want to see an Asian, you have to go east.

Just curious, why are blacks south? My blacks are mixed among the general population in the Western Hemisphere. Although no player ever had a black hero the choice can be made without significantly impacting the campaign. My Humans are more hostile towards Orcs in the Eastern Hemisphere. There's no color biases among Humans in my games.

At a guess. South to the equator. The tropic zone.

In one of my campaigns you would have to travel north as the campaign is set in the southern hemisphere and it gets colder the further south you go.

Quote from: tenbones;1133615I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about my appearance (which is a genetic monstrosity),

I'd always just assumed you looked like Laurence Fishburne in the Matrix, since that's basically your avatar.

You know, before he got fat.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1134542Just curious, why are blacks south? My blacks are mixed among the general population in the Western Hemisphere. Although no player ever had a black hero the choice can be made without significantly impacting the campaign. My Humans are more hostile towards Orcs in the Eastern Hemisphere. There's no color biases among Humans in my games.

Where black and white get on just fine and gang up on green?

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1134542Just curious, why are blacks south? My blacks are mixed among the general population in the Western Hemisphere. Although no player ever had a black hero the choice can be made without significantly impacting the campaign. My Humans are more hostile towards Orcs in the Eastern Hemisphere. There's no color biases among Humans in my games.

Just guessing here but...

Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Just guessing here but...

Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

Just guessing here, too, but PROBABLY dark elves originate from this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

And further, my guess is that "dark" refers to their outlook and attitudes, not actual skin color, just like it has in literature since forever. "Deepest Darkest Africa" meant it was foreboding, not that it was cloudy or dim or whatever. Honestly, I think it'd be more fun to just have dark elves look like normal elves, which would really fuck with the PCs.

Quote from: Brad;1134605Just guessing here, too, but PROBABLY dark elves originate from this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

And further, my guess is that "dark" refers to their outlook and attitudes, not actual skin color, just like it has in literature since forever. "Deepest Darkest Africa" meant it was foreboding, not that it was cloudy or dim or whatever. Honestly, I think it'd be more fun to just have dark elves look like normal elves, which would really fuck with the PCs.

I agree, dark probably had to do with them being evil and not their skin color, but... Just look at the effing illustrations! All drow appear to have dark skin in every illustration I can find.

Yes, having evil elves that look just like regular elves would sure change the outlook of  campaign, even better, give all elves glamour to hide, and now the PCs don't really know if the friendly Elf is really the friendly one, or even if they all really look like that or are really some bipedal monstrosity that look like a spawn of Cthulhu.

Has to do with the fact that most people in this setting are commoners, they don't travel more than a days walk from the place where they were born. People in general don't travel that much. People with dark skin come from a place where the sun's Ray's are more intense, and their skin has adapted to that environment by having more melanin in it to protect it from ultraviolet Ray's, resulting in the skin being darker. Magic is rare, so you don't have the kind of travel that occurs in the modern age, so populations don't shift around and mingle as much like they do today in our world.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1134542Just curious, why are blacks south? My blacks are mixed among the general population in the Western Hemisphere. Although no player ever had a black hero the choice can be made without significantly impacting the campaign. My Humans are more hostile towards Orcs in the Eastern Hemisphere. There's no color biases among Humans in my games.

One important thing to remember about pre-modern worlds is that people traveled a LOT less. The vast majority (90+%) lived their entire life and died within 20 miles of their place of birth. A hundred miles was a two week journey along rutted dirt paths, not a two hour car ride on the interstate. A trip by sea beyond sight of land was a treacherous endeavor.

Short of war/famine induced mass migrations, a local population wasn't likely to ever meet someone outside their own ethnic group in any sizable numbers. Any small group of outsiders who did stay in an area would have married into the local population and no longer exists observable within a few generations.

In short, in a medieval setting you are extremely unlikely to ever meet anyone looking significantly different from yourself. Frankly, a human of European stock would probably see more physical similarities between themselves and a sun-haired elf and rust-bearded dwarf than an ebon-skinned human to the point that using 'race' to distinguish between European human, Elf, Dwarf and African human would not be that odd in-universe.

Come to think of it, that was pretty much how the races were laid out in the 5e Middle Earth material. The races included the Gondor, Rohan, Dwarves, Riverlands, Hobbits and Elves with a Riverlander considered as different a race from a Rohan as an elf or dwarf would be.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Just guessing here but...

Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

I too prefer pale drow. But it's a product of environment not genetics. Bring a drow up to the surface for a couple decades, and once he's tanned up a little he will be indistinguishable from any surface elf.

So since WotC seems to be angling towards this idea that any reference to the color Black is some kind of reference to "black people" and they want to defy the western association with "black" with any connotations of negativity in the abstract sense... and take it further into PC species now being non-different in terms of stat averages.

My question then becomes - when do they realize that by doing this, the erase all cultural actions as having moral attributes. Drow aren't inherently evil, okay i'll bite. But then when you stat Drow, are we going to pretend that there will be some baseline Alignment OTHER than Evil given the practices of their culture? I find that shockingly ignorant. But then look who we're talking about.

Orcs aren't inherently Evil. They just aggressively want to be your neighbor. That's all.

Edit: As for the Drow being literally black? I just chalked it up to Elves being photo-reactive for some mystical Elven reason. Elves live in light - are pale. Elves without light - are dark. So yes by that logic a Drow that stayed above ground could, theoretically become lighter. How much? Up to you. But you know.. that's a fun idea to play with for campaign ideas! Drow spies! The reverse is true too.

Quote from: Brad;1134605Just guessing here, too, but PROBABLY dark elves originate from this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

And further, my guess is that "dark" refers to their outlook and attitudes, not actual skin color, just like it has in literature since forever. "Deepest Darkest Africa" meant it was foreboding, not that it was cloudy or dim or whatever. Honestly, I think it'd be more fun to just have dark elves look like normal elves, which would really fuck with the PCs.

That is how the Dark Elves are in GURPS Banestorm. Racist, xenophobic lunatics that caused a magical catastrophe to perform genocide on the Orcs. Now they seem to be involved with the worship of a Lovcraftian horror in a haunted forest.  Really great villains and a blast to use as spies and infiltrators with groups that are used to Elves=Good.

Quote from: tenbones;1134617So since WotC seems to be angling towards this idea that any reference to the color Black is some kind of reference to "black people" and they want to defy the western association with "black" with any connotations of negativity in the abstract sense... and take it further into PC species now being non-different in terms of stat averages.

My question then becomes - when do they realize that by doing this, the erase all cultural actions as having moral attributes. Drow aren't inherently evil, okay i'll bite. But then when you stat Drow, are we going to pretend that there will be some baseline Alignment OTHER than Evil given the practices of their culture? I find that shockingly ignorant. But then look who we're talking about.

Orcs aren't inherently Evil. They just aggressively want to be your neighbor. That's all.

Edit: As for the Drow being literally black? I just chalked it up to Elves being photo-reactive for some mystical Elven reason. Elves live in light - are pale. Elves without light - are dark. So yes by that logic a Drow that stayed above ground could, theoretically become lighter. How much? Up to you. But you know.. that's a fun idea to play with for campaign ideas! Drow spies! The reverse is true too.

I prefer to leave it ambiguous whether there is any difference at all, beside lifestyle and culture, between surface elves and drow. Yes, chances are very good that any given surface elf has lived as drow at some point. May still be. Or may be again in the future. Surface elves are not necessarily somehow "good," they're just elves (or drow if you prefer) who have chosen to live more solitary lives on the surface.

EDIT: maybe I shouldn't put culture in there as a difference. Surface elves may have checked out of Drow culture, temporarily or permanently, but they were all raised in the same culture

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Just guessing here but...

Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

That clearly explains it! Uuff thought there was racism in D&D too.

Quote from: Omega;1134564At a guess. South to the equator. The tropic zone.

In one of my campaigns you would have to travel north as the campaign is set in the southern hemisphere and it gets colder the further south you go.

   Ansalon, the main continent of the Dragonlance setting, is set in the southern hemisphere and has black residents in more northern parts of the continent (Ergoth and Nordmaar). Of course, it's also small and old enough that there's probably been a lot of migrations and mixing.

Quote from: Zirunel;1134616I too prefer pale drow. But it's a product of environment not genetics. Bring a drow up to the surface for a couple decades, and once he's tanned up a little he will be indistinguishable from any surface elf.

Environment changes the genetics if given enough time, if the drow have millennia under ground they should be like all the albino spiders that live only in caves, probably even blind.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134629Environment changes the genetics if given enough time, if the drow have millennia under ground they should be like all the albino spiders that live only in caves, probably even blind.

Assuming the Drow have genes. D&D has always played fast and loose with soft science, and adding magic into the mix makes it even muddier.

While I assume that ANY race or class of creatures would have to succumb to environmental pressures and be affected by them, particularly for their survival, one thing to remember is that elves are not a natural species, but a magical fey race. And as such do not have to conform to the same evolutionary processes as natural creatures, specially in regards to superficial characteristics, like skin color.

I would assume that even magical creatures would have to adapt in terms of their capabilities to survive in their environment, however, but that's a more fundamental component than appearance. And even then, you are more likely to see magical adaptations, like spell-like abilities or being able to outright breathe under water (as opposed to simply being able to hold their breath for a long time, like dolphins and other marine mammals) when dealing with fey races than to see more "natural" sounding evolutionary adaptations.

This is not to say that "therefore dark elves have to be dark skinned", but rather that being fey means that don't necessarily have to be albinos. That being said, I remember the idea of "albino" dark elves being mentioned in Drow of the Underdark as a rare variation that were sometimes used as spies to infiltrate other elves. I used to have a trading card that depicted a female albino dark elf, with some background info on the back of the card, but I lost it to the ages (probably during a termite infestation were a bunch of my books and cards got eaten).

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134629Environment changes the genetics if given enough time, if the drow have millennia under ground they should be like all the albino spiders that live only in caves, probably even blind.

Depends how many generations we're talking about. For me, drow/elves are somewhat supernatural and near-immortal, and although I like to leave some ambiguity about this, it is possible that all elves/ drow are essentially the first and only generation there has ever been. There is also ambiguity about how elves/drow reproduce and whether it's even possible (players have seen no clear evidence for elven/drow children). Also uncertainty about how long they have been living in the underworld at all (at least 1000 years, when human written records in that area begin, but beyond that is unclear).

However, yes if your drow have been living in the underworld for many, many generations then by all means make them physically adapted to that environment

Why make a race, that has innate magic powers (Well I think they still do in 5e) conform in any way to having to adapt to their environment?   They are unnaturally black, not dark skinned, not tan, but unnatural.  Marked if you will.   Should mind flayers be pasty as well?

Quote from: oggsmash;1134643Why make a race, that has innate magic powers (Well I think they still do in 5e) conform in any way to having to adapt to their environment?   They are unnaturally black, not dark skinned, not tan, but unnatural.  Marked if you will.   Should mind flayers be pasty as well?

Actually, I do prefer my mind-flayers to be pasty too!

But if you want your drow to be unnaturally black, then go with that. When you get down to it, all this stuff has more to do with personal preference and aesthetics, and rational explanations come later (or not at all). Do what you like really, it's supposed to be a creative game, so create, tinker, do what you want.

Quote from: Zirunel;1134644Actually, I do prefer my mind-flayers to be pasty too!

But if you want your drow to be unnaturally black, then go with that. When you get down to it, all this stuff has more to do with personal preference and aesthetics, and rational explanations come later (or not at all). Do what you like really, it's supposed to be a creative game, so create, tinker, do what you want.

  I remember a picture of Lolth (or maybe her high priestess) in Drow form in either the vault of the drow or queen of the demonweb pits (1st edition) and she was jet black.  It was unnatural and....hot at the same time.  She was sort of feeling up a nearby demon, and the mood of the picture certainly suggested if the tolkien elves were not for the orgies, well things down in the dark are key parties every day.    I can see where making them very pale would create a similar shock effect (not so sure on the hot, pasty can be a hard sell this side of Atali, the frost giants daughter).

   Mind flayers struck me as mauve or purple even in the 1st edition MM.  I can see making one pasty to show a mutant/extra scary one though.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134649Mind flayers struck me as mauve or purple even in the 1st edition MM.  I can see making one pasty to show a mutant/extra scary one though.

You are right about by-the-book mind flayer. I just prefer the sickly pale mauve over the full on purple. To each his own.

Quote from: Zirunel;1134660You are right about by-the-book mind flayer. I just prefer the sickly pale mauve over the full on purple. To each his own.

  Heh to me even pale mauve is pretty damned purple.  I think the thing is so alien there is no color that could make it look not menacing.  But I think pale mauve being in the spectrum is certainly in the bounds of my imagination.  I guess I thought you were talking a stark white Mind Flayer.  Not that a maggot colored Mind flayer is not terrifying.  I just always thought of some purple spectrum, and that was as a third grader looking at the picture in black and white.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1134632Assuming the Drow have genes. D&D has always played fast and loose with soft science, and adding magic into the mix makes it even muddier.

Anybody checked out Dungeon Meshi? It does magical organisms really well and only sometimes using 'And mana powers this part' as a crutch.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Just guessing here but...

Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

People keep trotting this one out. Thing is drow skin colour isnt natural. Its a curse or whim of a god, depending on the iteration. Like fomori are cursed to be ugly. Or the new background for harpies, chimera, etc.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134661Heh to me even pale mauve is pretty damned purple.  I think the thing is so alien there is no color that could make it look not menacing.  But I think pale mauve being in the spectrum is certainly in the bounds of my imagination.  I guess I thought you were talking a stark white Mind Flayer.  Not that a maggot colored Mind flayer is not terrifying.  I just always thought of some purple spectrum, and that was as a third grader looking at the picture in black and white.

No, never gone stark white with those guys but why not? I can imagine it. maybe I'll try one now, thanks! As you say, maggot-coloured is nicely horrifying. No need to lean too heavily on "canon" or books for any of this. In fact, in some ways better if you riff off "canon" rather than leaning on it.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134661Heh to me even pale mauve is pretty damned purple.  I think the thing is so alien there is no color that could make it look not menacing.  But I think pale mauve being in the spectrum is certainly in the bounds of my imagination.  I guess I thought you were talking a stark white Mind Flayer.  Not that a maggot colored Mind flayer is not terrifying.  I just always thought of some purple spectrum, and that was as a third grader looking at the picture in black and white.

   Hmm...I don't think the artists could get away with it, but transparent/translucent illithidae?

Quote from: Zirunel;1134665No, never gone stark white with those guys but why not? I can imagine it. maybe I'll try one now. As you say, maggot-coloured is nicely horrifying. No need to lean too heavily on "canon" or books for any of this. In fact, in some ways better if you riff off "canon" rather than leaning on it.

   A mindflayer with the color of a maggot and a tongue with teeth on the end of it like the xenomorph from Alien and no face tentacles.  The party is in for shock when they charge it.

Quote from: Omega;1134664People keep trotting this one out. Thing is drow skin colour isnt natural. Its a curse or whim of a god, depending on the iteration. Like fomori are cursed to be ugly. Or the new background for harpies, chimera, etc.

People keep trotting lore as RAW, Last time I played like that was several decades ago.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1134666Hmm...I don't think the artists could get away with it, but transparent/translucent illithidae?

Nice!

Quote from: oggsmash;1134667A mindflayer with the color of a maggot and a tongue with teeth on the end of it like the xenomorph from Alien and no face tentacles.  The party is in for shock when they charge it.

So my hazy memory tells me there was a piece (Dragon article?) a long time ago (70s?) suggesting dms dump the published descriptions of monsters or at least change them up a lot, if only because even back then, if you went by the book,  players "knew too much" about what they were facing. Could go overboard with that, but can be useful advice.

Quote from: Zirunel;1134672So my hazy memory tells me there was a piece (Dragon article?) a long time ago (70s?) suggesting dms dump the published descriptions of monsters or at least change them up a lot, if only because even back then, if you went by the book,  players "knew too much" about what they were facing. Could go overboard with that, but can be useful advice.

   I have only run D&D 10 or so sessions for my group, we are mostly GURPS and Savage Worlds.    GURPS we play a hyborian adventure (Conan) campaign.  I like the atmosphere of a Conan like setting regarding monsters.   They are rare, horrifying and not something you have encountered before and do not know anyone who has.   It encourages you to make some creatures up,or use same stat blocks and create complete different creatures.  I know this, my son, who is bright, can damn near identify a monster from memory at the sparsest of details about its appearance .  So for D&D, that has a bit more of a Kolchak:Nightstalker feel to it than horrors man was not meant to know, I think that is excellent advice.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134676I have only run D&D 10 or so sessions for my group, we are mostly GURPS and Savage Worlds.    GURPS we play a hyborian adventure (Conan) campaign.  I like the atmosphere of a Conan like setting regarding monsters.   They are rare, horrifying and not something you have encountered before and do not know anyone who has.   It encourages you to make some creatures up,or use same stat blocks and create complete different creatures.  I know this, my son, who is bright, can damn near identify a monster from memory at the sparsest of details about its appearance .  So for D&D, that has a bit more of a Kolchak:Nightstalker feel to it than horrors man was not meant to know, I think that is excellent advice.

Yes I like that aspect of a Conan/ S&S type setting too. So do you go low/ rare magic as well?

Quote from: Zirunel;1134680Yes I like that aspect of a Conan/ S&S type setting too. So do you go low/ rare magic as well?

   For the Conan setting?  Well, magic in conan is not low, it is subtle in many cases, or literally world shaking.  The thing is, the characters have no access to it.  Magic weapons are almost non existent,  and there is no player that has a character capable of anything approaching magic.  There is one relic sword they found that they have no idea what it does, and they have an NPC to tags along from time to time or sells them alchemy compounds or a healing golden wine (that will keep you from dying and greatly accelerate your healing for a day, but supplies are always limited, and he can not make more "on the road").   Lose a limb and it is gone forever.   Die, you are dead.  The party has survived 15 or so adventures, and lost several NPCs who were with them (these were actually back up players, because I did not know how it would go) and been very close to death a few times.   In Gurps, the warrior with a shield dominates melee in the scrum.  The warrior with reach dominates it in open space, or at least presents real challenges to people without reach.   Archers are less damaging then melee, but can be devastating against the "dangerous" targets (the archer actually one shotted a creature I thought would wipe the party, a "dragon" (an allosaurus the Cult leader mage had raised from hatchling) by shooting it through the eye with a poison arrow, hit a crit, devastating damage roll and a fail on the health check by the critter).  

    I find it is harder to create those sorts of things in D&D, the tension, the chance for fate to win out for you.  But I do tend to be human centric  and a bit of a Sword and sorcery vibe,  Their party has no wizard or true magic user, or a cleric.  This is going to get them killed, but I am surprised about 5th edition in the fact that is is more survivable (at least up to level 5) than I would have expected.  I think they have one +1 warhammer in the group of 5 players.   I would love to keep it in that vein, where magic is rare, but awesome, but when you have a ranger and a paladin already casting spells about I think that is wrong game.

Without tinkering, GURPS does sword and sorcery very, very well.  It can do higher magic (common magic) fantasy like dungeons and dragons, but for capturing a certain feel and creating the atmosphere, GURPS is really good at blood and mud, or swords and sandals.  Dungeons and dragons in its current incarnation I think does what it is very well, with the caveat that the non magic classes are a bit loaded to me with special abilities that sort of leverage away the need for a caster buffing you till you glow or having the sword of awesome with the belt of mighty  to be a big contributor to the party.  The rest changes also make combat sort of video game like, which when I am in the mood for that, i can enjoy it (honestly enjoy it more as a player than GM, running a game, it is easier (lazy??) to make combat tense if there is legitimate risk in many combats, and extreme risk when you engage the heavy hitters as well) a whole lot too.   Dungeon Fantasy, for example is very similar in tone to Dungeons and Dragons, and I like them both.   But both play and GM, I like Gritty sci fi, and sword and sorcery.  GURPS is very, very good at both of those.

IMC the drow tell the legend of how the Great Mother was betrayed by the Traitor Lover. So Lolth cast Corellon out from the Bosom of the Earth, where he and all his children would be cursed forever by the burning flames of the sun, bleached until their flesh was pale as bone.

Elves are naturally black, y'all. :p

Quote from: oggsmash;1134684For the Conan setting?  Well, magic in conan is not low, it is subtle in many cases, or literally world shaking.  The thing is, the characters have no access to it.  Magic weapons are almost non existent,  and there is no player that has a character capable of anything approaching magic.

Apologies, that is basically what I meant and what I was asking.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134684I am surprised about 5th edition in the fact that is is more survivable (at least up to level 5) than I would have expected.  I think they have one +1 warhammer in the group of 5 players.   I would love to keep it in that vein, where magic is rare, but awesome, but when you have a ranger and a paladin already casting spells about I think that is wrong game.

Interesting

I'm using Mini Six and 1e AD&D(!) for my low magic swords & sorcery games. AD&D is surprisingly easy to run as low-magic just by using some of the official rules, like rolling randomly for Magic-User spells rather than giving everyone Fireball, and by clamping down on NPC level inflation. For my 1e Bloodstone Lands campaign I halved the official NPC levels and keep those of my own creation in the 1-8 range, this makes a very big difference in practice. The NPC MUs having randomly rolled spells makes the biggest difference of all, since they provide what the MU PC can learn on level-up.

I ran the party through a couple of published adventures, and given they are not in any way balanced, expected TPK.  Especially the end of the forge of fury.   But I played the dragon as the adventure suggested (I would not have played a dragon the way they suggest) and I think ranged weapons are more effective than I thought they would or could be.  There are a couple of chars (the paladin, rolled god like for his attributes and that made a big difference) that have good stats too.

Quote from: Zirunel;1134672So my hazy memory tells me there was a piece (Dragon article?) a long time ago (70s?) suggesting dms dump the published descriptions of monsters or at least change them up a lot, if only because even back then, if you went by the book,  players "knew too much" about what they were facing. Could go overboard with that, but can be useful advice.

I do this all the time.  I think the problem with going overboard is not so much changing up the description but using a vast hodge-podge of creatures such that the players never learn what any of them can do.  Thus, I change the descriptions (and sometimes minor abilities) of probably 70% to 80% of the creatures I use, but most of those creatures I use several times.  Some start terrifying and stay that way.  Some start scary and after dealing with them, the players feel more confident about handling them next time.

The Drow should have been cursed with pink skin with bright green dots, less drama that way.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

Only true if their skin colour comes from melanin.

Quote from: Nephil;1134698The Drow should have been cursed with pink skin with bright green dots, less drama that way.

And in your campaign, they can be. Q.E.D.

The moment I read about Warhammer's Dark Elves, I tossed the Drow.

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Quote from: Spinachcat;1134772The moment I read about Warhammer's Dark Elves, I tossed the Drow.

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Yeah, Baby, yeah!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134772The moment I read about Warhammer's Dark Elves, I tossed the Drow.

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Those "dark elves" look light-skinned and highly problematic. Obviously an example patriarchal white colonialism trying to feed the male gayz.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134668People keep trotting lore as RAW, Last time I played like that was several decades ago.

Actually... several of those examples are from 5e. Not TSR era.

Holy shit, someone on reddit with a reasonable take:

QuoteBut is saying that elves are all arrogant bigots any better? Or that dwarves are all stubborn alcoholics? Or that halflings are lazy and carefree? Pretty much every race in DnD has a negative stigma attached to them in some way or another, tackling evil races (which aren't part of the "status quo") just feels like WotC is using current day events to garner attention.

Mongolians might be real people, but the rampaging hordes of Ghenghis Khan are long gone. Are we not able to also depict an ancient germanic culture through a race because Germans were once Goths? Are Chultans not stereotypical Aztec/Mayan descendants? Isn't the overzealous theocracy of Elturel offensive to some cultures as well, like talians and the Spanish? Aren't the Uthgardt tribes of Icewind Dale based on Vikings? Isn't Calismshan just Morocco? And Cormyr medieval France? The Moonshae Isles are filled with arrogant snobs who look down on others, like the UK.

Putting aside that a dark goddess like Lolth would favor darkness and shadow and thus influence her people's appearance, putting aside that having dark skin is a good evolutionary trait for the Drow's environment, and putting aside any other reason, both out-of-universe and in-universe, that the Drow might look the way they do, fact of the matter is, most of DnD is inspired by real world mythology, and the Drow are no different. They come from Norse mythology, being mentioned in proses, mostly. It's not wrong to use old mythology as inspiration for your game, and to try to attach that piece of history with modern day identity politics is intellectually dishonest and unreasonable considering those proses didn't stem from racism in any way.

Obviously going to the average person and mentioning Drows the way you do will get a reaction, but the average person typically doesn't know basic geography or their own history, let alone obscure mythology from an extinct culture halfway across the world. DnD was made by nerds for nerds, and while I'm glad that there has been a renaissance and that many people are getting into the hobby, it should not be at the expense of its core audience. Just because the knee jerk reaction of someone who's ignorant on the subject and context is to call it racist, doesn't mean it is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/hb3zlb/diversity_and_dungeons_dragons_dungeons_dragons/fv7j58p/

1.  A rationed, well thought out argument with salient references on Reddit?  Hell has frozen over.
2.  Ok, which one of you is moonlighting on Reddit?  Heh

As mentioned in another thread on this idiot subject.

Dark elves in Dragonlance are just regular elves that have been cast out from elven lands or society.

Tika and Dalamar from the Russian Dragonlance musical. Bemusing as the one playing Dalamar was Raistlin in the vesion prior. His wife plays Tika.
The one from the version after this was interesting as he had very pale skin and one half was done up with a skeletal theme which cant be seen in this pic unfortunately..
(http://lasttestmusical.weebly.com/uploads/3/1/8/6/31868917/screen-shot-2016-10-17-at-5-20-37-pm_1_orig.png)
(https://sparkledork.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/h.jpg?w=268&h=290)

That was how dark elves rolled in Feist's Riftwar setting as well. It was even weirder because dark elves could redeem themselves, and while there was no outward change you could -immediately- tell they were no longer a dark elf.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;11348151.  A rationed, well thought out argument with salient references on Reddit?  Hell has frozen over.
2.  Ok, which one of you is moonlighting on Reddit?  Heh

The responses though are precisely the kind of "I took a humanities class, once, and no longer have a brain of my own" response you'd expect from a typical Reddit user.

Quote from: Omega;1134806Actually... several of those examples are from 5e. Not TSR era.

And? Isn't RAW being used to naysay me?

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1134830That was how dark elves rolled in Feist's Riftwar setting as well. It was even weirder because dark elves could redeem themselves, and while there was no outward change you could -immediately- tell they were no longer a dark elf.

Well, other elves could immediately tell.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134772The moment I read about Warhammer's Dark Elves, I tossed the Drow.

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Funny enough, by the time we get to Age of Sigmar, the Dark Elves form a major part of the "Cities of Sigmar" forces--yep, they joined up with the (former) Empire, dispossessed Dwarves, and (now) homeless Wood Elves to fight crime...er, Chaos, as a "good guy" faction.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134858And? Isn't RAW being used to naysay me?

Only when referring to centaurs?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1134908Well, other elves could immediately tell.

I swear there was a 'redemption' scene where a non-elf was watching ... wait, if the 'non-elf' was Tomas, the reincarnation of Ashen-Shugar, he -certainly- would be able to tell.

Damn it, I'm going to have to reread the books or this is gonna bug me all day. Oh well, there are worse things to read.

Someone I agree with (https://old.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/hc12u1/in_response_to_game_changes_made_on_the_base_of/):

QuoteDear Wizards,

Please walk back and deny any further changes to your games on the base of racism. This is coming from a POC. In Dungeon and dragons, as players, we know that Orcs are not black people. In fact, by making changes you are being racist, let me explain.

In Dungeons and Dragons making changes to the Orc over the argument that they represent black people is also problematic. You already have a race that represents black people, Humans. Humans can be of any skin color and they all share the same attributes. Orcs are of a totally different species which do share different traits, the same way cats and dogs are different. Races and monsters in these games and literature represent aspects of us as people. Aspects that may trouble us or ones we want to revere. We fight orcs because they represent the fear of how far our anger and rage can go. It is us as people saying that anger and hate is unacceptable. By making changes to orcs on the base of racism is saying that orcs represent black people, that they are not human.

I would argue even that the people who see these things as racist have no understanding of the game and may even be racist themselves. Who sees these descriptions and immediately say "that sounds like a black person, i wonder if that is what they meant by it?"; I would argue someone who does not see POC as equals or people that are capable of being different than their stereotypes.

Please do not bend to the will of the outraged mob. Stand by your convictions of diversity by judging these game mechanics based on their own merit. If you truly think these are racist then by all means keep the changes but if you know they are not racist then don't let others tell you otherwise. Thank you for listening.

Then some idiot chimes in with this crap. So convenient to acknowledge that we aren't a monolith when it supports their agenda.

QuoteI think they want to make as many people feel comfortable and welcome as possible. For a long time fantasy in general has been rife with shitty racists and chromosomal deficients. I have lots of friends of color who avoid fantasy entirely as a result. I personally don't see any problems with the changes proposed, they aren't mandatory anyway. People of color aren't a monolith and your opinion doesn't dictate what everyone else feels. I know plenty of people who are turned off by the language used for drow, it's pretty clearly evocative of the same terminology used to degrade POC in this country historically and currently.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1135076Someone I agree with (https://old.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/hc12u1/in_response_to_game_changes_made_on_the_base_of/):



Then some idiot chimes in with this crap. So convenient to acknowledge that we aren't a monolith when it supports their agenda...

So, basically, the White Knight needed to shush the POC lest other POC "friends" are deprived of their champion's voice on the matter. Fucking classic.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1135086So, basically, the White Knight needed to shush the POC lest other POC "friends" are deprived of their champion's voice on the matter. Fucking classic.

As I said, SJW race policy is a trick. If a black person disagrees with them they get unblacked. You can't win at a game where they control the rules.

They care about 'comfort', primarily their own. You can't win against them using their own rules.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1135076Someone I agree with (https://old.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/hc12u1/in_response_to_game_changes_made_on_the_base_of/):
Then some idiot chimes in with this crap. So convenient to acknowledge that we aren't a monolith when it supports their agenda.

$20 says the idiot is a white millennial who has never worked a day in his/her/it's life.

Quote from: Brad;1135102$20 says the idiot is a white millennial who has never worked a day in his/her/it's life.

I was born at night, but not last night.

Anyways, this line jumped out:

QuoteFor a long time fantasy in general has been rife with shitty racists and chromosomal deficients.

And my reaction was, 'Oh really? Based on what, you sniveling shit? When were you EVER part of that group of outcasts?'

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1135076

QuoteI think they want to make as many people feel comfortable and welcome as possible. For a long time fantasy in general has been rife with shitty racists and chromosomal deficients. I have lots of friends of color who avoid fantasy entirely as a result. I personally don't see any problems with the changes proposed, they aren't mandatory anyway. People of color aren't a monolith and your opinion doesn't dictate what everyone else feels. I know plenty of people who are turned off by the language used for drow, it's pretty clearly evocative of the same terminology used to degrade POC in this country historically and currently.

"I'm not racist, I've got lots of black friends who agree with me!" :D

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1135076Someone I agree with (https://old.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/hc12u1/in_response_to_game_changes_made_on_the_base_of/):
...
Then some idiot chimes in with this crap. So convenient to acknowledge that we aren't a monolith when it supports their agenda.

Quote...People of color aren't a monolith and your opinion doesn't dictate what everyone else feels...

It never ceases to amaze me how detractors are never entitled to "dictate" (i.e resist/oppose the rules from on high) anything for the people imposing the rules, but the people imposing the rules are perfectly entitled and within their rights to impose them on everyone else.

They determined for the rest of us that these changes are necessary, so we better accept them or it's US who're imposing shit on everybody else. This all rides on the basis of spurious, self-asserted and contentious claims that they assume to be true therefore they must be true, and the burden of proof is on the detractors who are never heard and automatically dismissed anyways. And there's always a magic "POC" somewhere that someone knows who agrees with this, who we must take into consideration whenever objecting to this shit, less we're the assholes for not accepting it out of hand.

And obviously, given how widespread these spurious notions have become, of course there's gonna be "POC" who actually believe in this shit, and of course there might be anecdotal examples that may superficially seem to support some of these claims (if we take them at face value without knowing the other side's version of events). But just because someone somewhere had a bad experience once that doesn't prove that this is a pervasive problem that must be tackled specifically by treating orcs and other fantasy humanoids as racist caricatures of "POC", which is a racist notion in and of itself.

It all follows a winning formula:

• Make spurious claims.
• Poison the well by reasserting and spreading these ideas till they become accepted in the gullible population as "fact".
• Demand changes be made.
• Accuse all detractors of either being complicit with "racist" or other prejudicial ideas or "dictating" the terms for everyone else for not allowing the terms to be dictated for them.
• Profit.

If any of you belong to Reddit, please invite those posters who not retarded to join our forum.

There is ZERO correlation between Orcs (unreal monsters) with Black people (real not monsters) except in the minds of freak ass nutjob racists, aka white leftists.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

Evolution in D&D?  That's blasphemy.  Nothing evolves in D&D, it's all been created by gods.

Quote from: DocJones;1135238Evolution in D&D?  That's blasphemy.  Nothing evolves in D&D, it's all been created by gods.

Or wizards who think they are gods......

Or psionicists who think they are gods......

Quote from: DocJones;1135238Evolution in D&D?  That's blasphemy.  Nothing evolves in D&D, it's all been created by gods.

So, gods created, how does that cancel evolution? Reproduction with differences is still a thing as long as it's sexual reproduction and not cloning. And, if evolution not real in your setting, why do humans have different skin tones? different nose shapes, etc? Are there any polka dot green on hot pink humans? Why not? Or any other color.

Why, if evolution not real, do different plants grow on different climates, soils, altitudes, etc?

Even if gods created, evolution would still take place after the fact.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135251So, gods created, how does that cancel evolution? Reproduction with differences is still a thing as long as it's sexual reproduction and not cloning. And, if evolution not real in your setting, why do humans have different skin tones? different nose shapes, etc? Are there any polka dot green on hot pink humans? Why not? Or any other color.

Why, if evolution not real, do different plants grow on different climates, soils, altitudes, etc?

Even if gods created, evolution would still take place after the fact.

See: Every answer from mythology before Origin of Species.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1135252See: Every answer from mythology before Origin of Species.

If you mean that in world, everybody thinks things are the way they are because gods, then I agree, but I'm talking from a meta POV.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135297If you mean that in world, everybody thinks things are the way they are because gods, then I agree, but I'm talking from a meta POV.

Evolution is just the god of fate meddling. On top of that with the influence of stuff like mana on metamorphosis (god of magic), or goes of chaos. Or god of perfection.

Depends on the activeness of the gods in the setting I suppose.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1135252See: Every answer from mythology before Origin of Species.

If your argument is that a concrete theory of evolution didn't emerge until 1860 so "God did it" was the only answer to every scientific question prior to that, then my counterpoint would be Deism / divine clockmaker theory.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135297If you mean that in world, everybody thinks things are the way they are because gods, then I agree, but I'm talking from a meta POV.

So am I. From a meta POV, if the setting's gods created everything, with mythological touches, like Aule making dwarves from stone, then real world rules about DNA and adaptation through natural selection don't necessarily apply.

Given one of the co founders of BLM is now on video admitting outright she is a trained marxist, I am certain she has more than a few others who are the same driving this bullshit.  The entire first goal for marxism is to infiltrate and then destroy existing institutions, so they may be made back in the proper image.   So I think what we all think we know is happening, is happening.  

    I hope their sales fall off a cliff for 6th edition.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1135325So am I. From a meta POV, if the setting's gods created everything, with mythological touches, like Aule making dwarves from stone, then real world rules about DNA and adaptation through natural selection don't necessarily apply.

Mythology isn't bad science, its a way of storing historical events and learned wisdom.

For example, "God is that which nothing more than can be thought" + "Man is made in the image of God" does NOT mean "Man was created by God because we're too stoopid to figure out evolution", it means that the value of human life cannot be quantified, i.e. human life has value simply because it exists. In other words it is mythological formulation of the idea of human rights. By saying that God (mythological formulation of human rights) created everything, one is saying that we assume that human rights are axiomatic (because our subjective reality is predicated on it) and do not have to be proven.

In short, the practice of religion allows humans to apply learned wisdom without having to consciously understand it. Obviously this has nothing to do with evolution, which is immaterial in terms of the decisions we have to make when it comes to dealing with each other. "Should I commit murder or should I not commit murder?" Whether we believe the Earth is flat or round is ultimately irrelevant.

This becomes problematic for fantasy writers (including Tolkien) and DMs who create fantasy religions, because since the individuals have less lived experienced than whole cultures that have existed for many generations, their religions are often nonsensical to the extent that they stray from reality and are simply a reflection of their own myopic and individually subjective view of reality.

Ideally each culture should have its own subjective mythology, which they use to guide them in the world, and each mythology should be disjoint from the game world's objective science.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1135325So am I. From a meta POV, if the setting's gods created everything, with mythological touches, like Aule making dwarves from stone, then real world rules about DNA and adaptation through natural selection don't necessarily apply.

So Aule keeps making new Dwarves? or how do they reproduce? Evolution doesn't care about the origin of life, evolution explains how one life form changes overtime into something totally different.

TLDR: Evolution doesn't start until there's life.

Quote from: oggsmash;1135336Given one of the co founders of BLM is now on video admitting outright she is a trained marxist, I am certain she has more than a few others who are the same driving this bullshit.  The entire first goal for marxism is to infiltrate and then destroy existing institutions, so they may be made back in the proper image.   So I think what we all think we know is happening, is happening.  

    I hope their sales fall off a cliff for 6th edition.

If that is the objective and concern, do the same in reverse! :p Just like TBP was all atwitter until people were ready to throw their precious WW/WoD/CoD onto the same purity pyre, you do the same with their ideology. ;) Infiltrate Marxism and show how it is a capitalist heirarchy based on "party points." Fire with fire, hold each precious hostage until everything burns down. :D

I advise because I love you all. :) Kumbaya.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135348So Aule keeps making new Dwarves? or how do they reproduce? Evolution doesn't care about the origin of life, evolution explains how one life form changes overtime into something totally different.

TLDR: Evolution doesn't start until there's life.

Evolution in Middle Earth doesn't necessarily work the same was as it does in the real world.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1135394Evolution in Middle Earth doesn't necessarily work the same was as it does in the real world.

Evolution in Middle Earth doesn't necessarily work in a different way than it does in the real world.

Gamma World (or other mutant post-apoc fantasy) are the only fantasy games where I consider evolution to be an active force, because there are no active gods present. In fantasy worlds with gods, there aren't creation myths per se because the gods talk to their clerics. There may be creation propaganda as different gods tell their clerics different stories, but I would rarely, if ever, include evolution in the mix.

FOR ME, the less real world in my fantasy games, the better.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135407Gamma World (or other mutant post-apoc fantasy) are the only fantasy games where I consider evolution to be an active force, because there are no active gods present. In fantasy worlds with gods, there aren't creation myths per se because the gods talk to their clerics. There may be creation propaganda as different gods tell their clerics different stories, but I would rarely, if ever, include evolution in the mix.

FOR ME, the less real world in my fantasy games, the better.

And that's fine, I don't really include it in my games, except here and there to explain something away to the players, not the characters, since characters wouldn't have any knowledge of this in a medieval-esque world. But most of the time I just use handvium, and don't explain things and let everybody assume why.

But, when not playing, I often wonder about such things.

My sword and sorcery settings definitely have evolution as a rule. It may be a little more Howardesque than IRL in terms of time scale, but it's there.

High fantasy settings have created races.

Sword and sorcery and post-apoc also have the concept of de-evolution where things and people have slid backwards along the evolutionary timeline.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135396Evolution in Middle Earth doesn't necessarily work in a different way than it does in the real world.

And here we are. Drow can have dark skin and not "adapt" to underground environments like they might in the real world, because magic or divine power. Then again Drow might, depending on the campaign.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135480Sword and sorcery and post-apoc also have the concept of de-evolution where things and people have slid backwards along the evolutionary timeline.

Which is a silly idea, since evolution by natural selection is adaptation to the environment. Nothing "de-evovles". But as a literary device in a piece of fiction, it resonates with the reader.

De-evolution in fiction comes from the idea that as civilization crumbles, man becomes more feral, not just in behavior, but in physical appearance. AKA, a tie between civilization and genetics.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1135484And here we are. Drow can have dark skin and not "adapt" to underground environments like they might in the real world, because magic or divine power. Then again Drow might, depending on the campaign.

It could even depend on the species. Some underground creatures, like Drow, might develop physiological trails, like dark skin, as a result of their magical nature, while more naturally evolved creatures, like lizards or moles, might become albinos in the same circumstances. It doesn't have to be either/or, it could be both depending on the specifics on a case by case basis.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135489De-evolution in fiction comes from the idea that as civilization crumbles, man becomes more feral, not just in behavior, but in physical appearance. AKA, a tie between civilization and genetics.

Devolution is still evolution, typically used to describe natural selection for decreased neoteny, lower intelligence etc. The term comes from an erroneously teleological view of evolution as having an intended goal of ever increasing intelligence and refinement.

Keep in mind that the drow do not live in total darkness. They dont even stay underground 24/7. Though Im sure a few surface races withed they did.

Quote from: Omega;1135602Keep in mind that the drow do not live in total darkness. They dont even stay underground 24/7. Though Im sure a few surface races withed they did.

They usually do stay 24/7 underground, though, just not 24/7/365. And even then, not all dark elves participate in raids, and those raids happen only at night. Some stay at home doing magical research or performing priestly duties or other functions all the time, and the degree of lighting in their homes is very minimal and faint, originating from glowing fungi and faerie fire. It's only a small portion of dark elves that really go out in raids, and then only occasionally. And they may alternate between who goes on raids and when.

And? Its still not total darkness. And they still have to travel through areas that are more, or less lit than where they dwell.

Quote from: Omega;1135711And? Its still not total darkness.

So? How does that impact the side discussion about dark elf skin color and evolution? Unless you were referring to something else? Being exposed to fungi light, or maybe to starlight once in a blue moon (taking YEARS sometimes between raids), doesn't affect skin pigmentation as far as I'm aware.

Quote from: Omega;1135711And they still have to travel through areas that are more, or less lit than where they dwell.

Not in FR at least (though, this could potentially vary by setting). At the contrary, dark elf patrols travel primarily through underground tunnels that are completely lightless, relying entirely on infra/darkvision to navigate for hours on end. Stuff like lava flows and glowing fungi are highly uncommon, and they never go to the surface unless they specifically have plans to raid in advance, and only at night and very rarely. There were entire chapters in Dark Elf Trilogy dedicated to this stuff. The vast majority of the Underdark is completely pitch black.

Bad characters do evil things, that is why we call them villains. Evil characters are inappropriate by design, if some of them are racist, that is just to further the story.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1135724Bad characters do evil things, that is why we call them villains. Evil characters are inappropriate by design, if some of them are racist, that is just to further the story.

  What if a good character is racist?

I always preferred Mystara's super-pale Shadow Elves instead of AD&D's Drow.

Quote from: S'mon;1135454My sword and sorcery settings definitely have evolution as a rule. It may be a little more Howardesque than IRL in terms of time scale, but it's there.

Well, I certainly hope you have man-eating apes. And of course: an ape cult.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1137343Well, I certainly hope you have man eating apes. And of course: an ape cult.

Of course you need an ape cult otherwise what would the man have to eat?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1137340I always preferred Mystara's super-pale Shadow Elves instead of AD&D's Drow.

Well of course. Makes them easier to spot in those shadows. :cool:

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1137343Well, I certainly hope you have man-eating apes. And of course: an ape cult.

Yes and yes - multiple! :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;1137340I always preferred Mystara's super-pale Shadow Elves instead of AD&D's Drow.

My preference was Dragonlance where Dark Elf was any elf exiled from elven lands.

I ran with that and made my elves caste-based with Dark Elves being the "caste" of any elf that rejects its place in the Divine Order. And because elven souls reincarnate and are finite in number, any elf who rejects their place is a threat to the Divine Order and must be "recycled".

The more dark elves, the more cracks in the facade. The more cracks, the more elves who abandon their caste as the priest-kings put ever more demands on those left to maintain the lifestyle the elite had enjoyed in the Realm of Dreams before the Cataclysm trapped them in the mortal world. Thus the High Elves have established the office of the Inquisition to hunt and return Dark Elves to their proper place in elven society.

Needless to say most PC elves tend to be labeled Dark by dint of very few elven castes really catering to the adventurer lifestyle. It also solves the "D'rizzt Effect" by making just about every elf PC an exile by default.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1137340I always preferred Mystara's super-pale Shadow Elves instead of AD&D's Drow.

Mystara is the best game world ever seriously developed by TSR. They shit all over Greyhawk and Blackmoor after Gygax left and pushed Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, encouraged the perception that Mystara/D&D was for kids and AD&D was so much better. The Gazetteer are some of the best RPG books ever published for a setting.

Quote from: Brad;1137385Mystara is the best game world ever seriously developed by TSR. They shit all over Greyhawk and Blackmoor after Gygax left and pushed Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, encouraged the perception that Mystara/D&D was for kids and AD&D was so much better. The Gazetteer are some of the best RPG books ever published for a setting.

I agree, have you seen the welcome to mystara youtube series, its something i like to listen to while driving.

Quote from: Slambo;1137386I agree, have you seen the welcome to mystara youtube series, its something i like to listen to while driving.

Never hard of it, will search.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1137340I always preferred Mystara's super-pale Shadow Elves instead of AD&D's Drow.

100 percent agree.

Quote from: Brad;1137385Mystara is the best game world ever seriously developed by TSR. They shit all over Greyhawk and Blackmoor after Gygax left and pushed Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, encouraged the perception that Mystara/D&D was for kids and AD&D was so much better. The Gazetteer are some of the best RPG books ever published for a setting.

The only people I recall shitting on Mystara and Basic were fans not TSR.

Quote from: Rhiannon;1137411100 percent agree.

How many official D&D settings actually had drow? I think it's just Ebberon, Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, along with their derivatives and meta-settings (Al-Qadim, Spelljammer, Planescape). Ravenloft had them at first but retconned them into their own variety of shadow elves, Dragonlance dumped them after a handful of stray references in the very early days, and I don't believe Birthright or Dark Sun ever had them.

You may be right. I don't remember them in Birthright or Dark Sun. And 2e's Complete Book of Humanoids officially 'allowed' you to play orcs, goblins or whatever.

This 'evil only races' thing seems to be a bit of a mirage.

Quote from: Brad;1137385Mystara is the best game world ever seriously developed by TSR. They shit all over Greyhawk and Blackmoor after Gygax left and pushed Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, encouraged the perception that Mystara/D&D was for kids and AD&D was so much better. The Gazetteer are some of the best RPG books ever published for a setting.

My experience differed. I was never able to get into Mystara. It just didn't click with me. OTOH, I have nothing negative to say about Mystara, either. De gustibus non est disputandum, I suppose.

Quote from: Rhiannon;1137417You may be right. I don't remember them in Birthright or Dark Sun. And 2e's Complete Book of Humanoids officially 'allowed' you to play orcs, goblins or whatever.

This 'evil only races' thing seems to be a bit of a mirage.

It is a mirage. But alot of people tenaciously cling to that hallucination even here on this forum even when repeatedly shown its not true or not how they keep claiming.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1137415How many official D&D settings actually had drow? I think it's just Ebberon, Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, along with their derivatives and meta-settings (Al-Qadim, Spelljammer, Planescape). Ravenloft had them at first but retconned them into their own variety of shadow elves, Dragonlance dumped them after a handful of stray references in the very early days, and I don't believe Birthright or Dark Sun ever had them.

Dark Elves in Dragonlance were supposed to be Elves exiled from their homeland.

Quote from: Shasarak;1137484Dark Elves in Dragonlance were supposed to be Elves exiled from their homeland.

True, although if you dig really deep into the earliest stuff, you can find uses of the term drow and implications that they're the Gygaxian variety. But those were quickly retconned out.

Quote from: Brad;1137385Mystara is the best game world ever seriously developed by TSR. They shit all over Greyhawk and Blackmoor after Gygax left and pushed Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, encouraged the perception that Mystara/D&D was for kids and AD&D was so much better. The Gazetteer are some of the best RPG books ever published for a setting.

I think to get the most out of Mystara, you need to decide which Gazetteers you treat as canon/central, and which you'll adapt to fit that theme. They are not really compatible taken as a whole. Karameikos and Dawn of the Emperors, for instance, seem to exist in very different worlds, with very different magic levels, despite both being by Allston. Every Gaz after Karameikos presents their own area as The Awesomest, and there is a lot of power creep over time. I absolutely love this approach, but it does require GM judgement and discretion.

Quote from: S'mon;1137512I think to get the most out of Mystara, you need to decide which Gazetteers you treat as canon/central, and which you'll adapt to fit that theme. They are not really compatible taken as a whole. Karameikos and Dawn of the Emperors, for instance, seem to exist in very different worlds, with very different magic levels, despite both being by Allston. Every Gaz after Karameikos presents their own area as The Awesomest, and there is a lot of power creep over time. I absolutely love this approach, but it does require GM judgement and discretion.

Which one has the ruling magic council of 36 36th level magic-users?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137543Which one has the ruling magic council of 36 36th level magic-users?

The 36th one of course. :cool:

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137543Which one has the ruling magic council of 36 36th level magic-users?

Probably Glantri as that is the one ruled by Wizards although I don't recall all the details.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137543Which one has the ruling magic council of 36 36th level magic-users?

Glantri?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137543Which one has the ruling magic council of 36 36th level magic-users?

  Alphatia, as presented in Dawn of the Emperors. Allston does go into a fair amount of detail about why they rarely manage to get anything world-shaking done, though. Basically, if you're a 36th-level M-U, you're probably eccentric, arrogant, focused on your own areas of concern, and easily powerful enough to tell anyone who comes calling to get stuffed, short of a combined effort of several other 36th-level magic-users ... who all suffer the same general quirks. Think of it as herding cats with meteor swarms at their beck and call. :)

Look how hard it is to get normal people to agree on something. Watch your local city council meeting if you need a visual aid on this.

Now, increase the size to 36 people, and give them all reality-warping powers that may or may not affect their sanity.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if Alphatia's council could successfully agree on where to go for breakfast, let alone run their country.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1137553Alphatia, as presented in Dawn of the Emperors. Allston does go into a fair amount of detail about why they rarely manage to get anything world-shaking done, though. Basically, if you're a 36th-level M-U, you're probably eccentric, arrogant, focused on your own areas of concern, and easily powerful enough to tell anyone who comes calling to get stuffed, short of a combined effort of several other 36th-level magic-users ... who all suffer the same general quirks. Think of it as herding cats with meteor swarms at their beck and call. :)

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1137561Look how hard it is to get normal people to agree on something. Watch your local city council meeting if you need a visual aid on this.

Now, increase the size to 36 people, and give them all reality-warping powers that may or may not affect their sanity.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if Alphatia's council could successfully agree on where to go for breakfast, let alone run their country.

Aaron Allston was one of the few RPG writers who could make that idea work - and this is the only way it could work.

I think I might be the only person who likes Ierendi, with all of it's anachronistic "tropical vacation spot" hokeyness.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1137619I think I might be the only person who likes Ierendi, with all of it's anachronistic "tropical vacation spot" hokeyness.

Hell no, Ierendi was a blast...including the not-Magnum PI NPCs

Quote from: Brad;1137385Mystara is the best game world ever seriously developed by TSR.

Please start a thread discussing Mystara!

Mystara somehow passed over our gaming groups. I'd love to learn more.

I did run LOTS of Hollow World back in the day. I really enjoyed most of that setting, some was a bit too gonzo, but I ran multiple campaigns just in the Egyptian area and mixed Hollow World with Ravenloft for good measure.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1137619I think I might be the only person who likes Ierendi, with all of it's anachronistic "tropical vacation spot" hokeyness.

Ierendi is a great setting all on its own.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1137649Please start a thread discussing Mystara!

Mystara somehow passed over our gaming groups. I'd love to learn more.

I did run LOTS of Hollow World back in the day. I really enjoyed most of that setting, some was a bit too gonzo, but I ran multiple campaigns just in the Egyptian area and mixed Hollow World with Ravenloft for good measure.

Ima second this. I never really got into Mystara or Hollow World despite being introduced into the hobby with Basic, since I jumped into 2e pretty quick once I started getting my own books and running my own campaigns (around 1990-91). But I remember Mystara/Hollow World was the only thing about Basic that I sometimes wondered about as something that would be cool to port to later editions. It's probably the most underrated setting in D&D history.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1133248Racism in Dungeons and Dragon

Because of current events, the topic of racism is all I have been thinking about lately. D&D is my favourite pastime and something I love to debate and discuss and play. I have no qualifications to lean on, I am not a person of colour, if this post makes you uncomfortable I encourage you to sit in the feeling for a moment. This post does not say you are a racist for playing Dungeons and Dragons, this post does not say you have committed a moral sin by enjoying D&D. This post is about some of the uncomfortable history, tropes, and conventions of D&D and how it relates to racism.

I'm pretty sure that Democrat is a race now.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1137792I'm pretty sure that Democrat is a race now.

You get out of the house much?

Reddit is still a silly place. :p

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137543Which one has the ruling magic council of 36 36th level magic-users?

Dawn of the Emperors. I don't know why Allston made them 36th level; when they are first mentioned (in Test of the Warlords I think) they are 1,000 Wizards, a level title gained at I think 11th level. That's still incredibly powerful; many nations' armed forces are a few thousand 1-3 hd mundane soldiers. And it fits far better with the way Alphatia is presented overall - incredibly magically powerful, but not post-human Dancers At the End of Time type level. So I stuck with 11+ for my campaign, keeping the number of Wish-users (level 33+ in BECMI) low. I still had stuff like the Master of the Desert Nomads, the main campaign villain who had been winning a war with the Thyatian Empire, get his armies & sky fleet kerbstomped when a CHA 18 PC M-U courtier/lady-in-waiting of the Alphatian Empress Eriadna persuaded her to go dispatch a naval patrol to deal with a little local difficulty over in Alasiya.