Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Just guessing here but...

Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

Just guessing here, too, but PROBABLY dark elves originate from this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

And further, my guess is that "dark" refers to their outlook and attitudes, not actual skin color, just like it has in literature since forever. "Deepest Darkest Africa" meant it was foreboding, not that it was cloudy or dim or whatever. Honestly, I think it'd be more fun to just have dark elves look like normal elves, which would really fuck with the PCs.

Quote from: Brad;1134605Just guessing here, too, but PROBABLY dark elves originate from this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

And further, my guess is that "dark" refers to their outlook and attitudes, not actual skin color, just like it has in literature since forever. "Deepest Darkest Africa" meant it was foreboding, not that it was cloudy or dim or whatever. Honestly, I think it'd be more fun to just have dark elves look like normal elves, which would really fuck with the PCs.

I agree, dark probably had to do with them being evil and not their skin color, but... Just look at the effing illustrations! All drow appear to have dark skin in every illustration I can find.

Yes, having evil elves that look just like regular elves would sure change the outlook of  campaign, even better, give all elves glamour to hide, and now the PCs don't really know if the friendly Elf is really the friendly one, or even if they all really look like that or are really some bipedal monstrosity that look like a spawn of Cthulhu.

Has to do with the fact that most people in this setting are commoners, they don't travel more than a days walk from the place where they were born. People in general don't travel that much. People with dark skin come from a place where the sun's Ray's are more intense, and their skin has adapted to that environment by having more melanin in it to protect it from ultraviolet Ray's, resulting in the skin being darker. Magic is rare, so you don't have the kind of travel that occurs in the modern age, so populations don't shift around and mingle as much like they do today in our world.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1134542Just curious, why are blacks south? My blacks are mixed among the general population in the Western Hemisphere. Although no player ever had a black hero the choice can be made without significantly impacting the campaign. My Humans are more hostile towards Orcs in the Eastern Hemisphere. There's no color biases among Humans in my games.

One important thing to remember about pre-modern worlds is that people traveled a LOT less. The vast majority (90+%) lived their entire life and died within 20 miles of their place of birth. A hundred miles was a two week journey along rutted dirt paths, not a two hour car ride on the interstate. A trip by sea beyond sight of land was a treacherous endeavor.

Short of war/famine induced mass migrations, a local population wasn't likely to ever meet someone outside their own ethnic group in any sizable numbers. Any small group of outsiders who did stay in an area would have married into the local population and no longer exists observable within a few generations.

In short, in a medieval setting you are extremely unlikely to ever meet anyone looking significantly different from yourself. Frankly, a human of European stock would probably see more physical similarities between themselves and a sun-haired elf and rust-bearded dwarf than an ebon-skinned human to the point that using 'race' to distinguish between European human, Elf, Dwarf and African human would not be that odd in-universe.

Come to think of it, that was pretty much how the races were laid out in the 5e Middle Earth material. The races included the Gondor, Rohan, Dwarves, Riverlands, Hobbits and Elves with a Riverlander considered as different a race from a Rohan as an elf or dwarf would be.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Just guessing here but...

Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

I too prefer pale drow. But it's a product of environment not genetics. Bring a drow up to the surface for a couple decades, and once he's tanned up a little he will be indistinguishable from any surface elf.

So since WotC seems to be angling towards this idea that any reference to the color Black is some kind of reference to "black people" and they want to defy the western association with "black" with any connotations of negativity in the abstract sense... and take it further into PC species now being non-different in terms of stat averages.

My question then becomes - when do they realize that by doing this, the erase all cultural actions as having moral attributes. Drow aren't inherently evil, okay i'll bite. But then when you stat Drow, are we going to pretend that there will be some baseline Alignment OTHER than Evil given the practices of their culture? I find that shockingly ignorant. But then look who we're talking about.

Orcs aren't inherently Evil. They just aggressively want to be your neighbor. That's all.

Edit: As for the Drow being literally black? I just chalked it up to Elves being photo-reactive for some mystical Elven reason. Elves live in light - are pale. Elves without light - are dark. So yes by that logic a Drow that stayed above ground could, theoretically become lighter. How much? Up to you. But you know.. that's a fun idea to play with for campaign ideas! Drow spies! The reverse is true too.

Quote from: Brad;1134605Just guessing here, too, but PROBABLY dark elves originate from this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

And further, my guess is that "dark" refers to their outlook and attitudes, not actual skin color, just like it has in literature since forever. "Deepest Darkest Africa" meant it was foreboding, not that it was cloudy or dim or whatever. Honestly, I think it'd be more fun to just have dark elves look like normal elves, which would really fuck with the PCs.

That is how the Dark Elves are in GURPS Banestorm. Racist, xenophobic lunatics that caused a magical catastrophe to perform genocide on the Orcs. Now they seem to be involved with the worship of a Lovcraftian horror in a haunted forest.  Really great villains and a blast to use as spies and infiltrators with groups that are used to Elves=Good.

Quote from: tenbones;1134617So since WotC seems to be angling towards this idea that any reference to the color Black is some kind of reference to "black people" and they want to defy the western association with "black" with any connotations of negativity in the abstract sense... and take it further into PC species now being non-different in terms of stat averages.

My question then becomes - when do they realize that by doing this, the erase all cultural actions as having moral attributes. Drow aren't inherently evil, okay i'll bite. But then when you stat Drow, are we going to pretend that there will be some baseline Alignment OTHER than Evil given the practices of their culture? I find that shockingly ignorant. But then look who we're talking about.

Orcs aren't inherently Evil. They just aggressively want to be your neighbor. That's all.

Edit: As for the Drow being literally black? I just chalked it up to Elves being photo-reactive for some mystical Elven reason. Elves live in light - are pale. Elves without light - are dark. So yes by that logic a Drow that stayed above ground could, theoretically become lighter. How much? Up to you. But you know.. that's a fun idea to play with for campaign ideas! Drow spies! The reverse is true too.

I prefer to leave it ambiguous whether there is any difference at all, beside lifestyle and culture, between surface elves and drow. Yes, chances are very good that any given surface elf has lived as drow at some point. May still be. Or may be again in the future. Surface elves are not necessarily somehow "good," they're just elves (or drow if you prefer) who have chosen to live more solitary lives on the surface.

EDIT: maybe I shouldn't put culture in there as a difference. Surface elves may have checked out of Drow culture, temporarily or permanently, but they were all raised in the same culture

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134601Just guessing here but...

Climate, amount of sun exposure, in short evolution. Which is why Drow (If living since millennia in caves) should be white as paper.

That clearly explains it! Uuff thought there was racism in D&D too.

Quote from: Omega;1134564At a guess. South to the equator. The tropic zone.

In one of my campaigns you would have to travel north as the campaign is set in the southern hemisphere and it gets colder the further south you go.

   Ansalon, the main continent of the Dragonlance setting, is set in the southern hemisphere and has black residents in more northern parts of the continent (Ergoth and Nordmaar). Of course, it's also small and old enough that there's probably been a lot of migrations and mixing.

Quote from: Zirunel;1134616I too prefer pale drow. But it's a product of environment not genetics. Bring a drow up to the surface for a couple decades, and once he's tanned up a little he will be indistinguishable from any surface elf.

Environment changes the genetics if given enough time, if the drow have millennia under ground they should be like all the albino spiders that live only in caves, probably even blind.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134629Environment changes the genetics if given enough time, if the drow have millennia under ground they should be like all the albino spiders that live only in caves, probably even blind.

Assuming the Drow have genes. D&D has always played fast and loose with soft science, and adding magic into the mix makes it even muddier.

While I assume that ANY race or class of creatures would have to succumb to environmental pressures and be affected by them, particularly for their survival, one thing to remember is that elves are not a natural species, but a magical fey race. And as such do not have to conform to the same evolutionary processes as natural creatures, specially in regards to superficial characteristics, like skin color.

I would assume that even magical creatures would have to adapt in terms of their capabilities to survive in their environment, however, but that's a more fundamental component than appearance. And even then, you are more likely to see magical adaptations, like spell-like abilities or being able to outright breathe under water (as opposed to simply being able to hold their breath for a long time, like dolphins and other marine mammals) when dealing with fey races than to see more "natural" sounding evolutionary adaptations.

This is not to say that "therefore dark elves have to be dark skinned", but rather that being fey means that don't necessarily have to be albinos. That being said, I remember the idea of "albino" dark elves being mentioned in Drow of the Underdark as a rare variation that were sometimes used as spies to infiltrate other elves. I used to have a trading card that depicted a female albino dark elf, with some background info on the back of the card, but I lost it to the ages (probably during a termite infestation were a bunch of my books and cards got eaten).

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134629Environment changes the genetics if given enough time, if the drow have millennia under ground they should be like all the albino spiders that live only in caves, probably even blind.

Depends how many generations we're talking about. For me, drow/elves are somewhat supernatural and near-immortal, and although I like to leave some ambiguity about this, it is possible that all elves/ drow are essentially the first and only generation there has ever been. There is also ambiguity about how elves/drow reproduce and whether it's even possible (players have seen no clear evidence for elven/drow children). Also uncertainty about how long they have been living in the underworld at all (at least 1000 years, when human written records in that area begin, but beyond that is unclear).

However, yes if your drow have been living in the underworld for many, many generations then by all means make them physically adapted to that environment

Why make a race, that has innate magic powers (Well I think they still do in 5e) conform in any way to having to adapt to their environment?   They are unnaturally black, not dark skinned, not tan, but unnatural.  Marked if you will.   Should mind flayers be pasty as well?