I'm new to the hobby, as a beginner one of the first place I use to search for answer was reddit, specially the OSR community.
Something I found frustrating, they always recommend the same game (which is a clone actually and nothing more) even when I ask for something else, something unrelated they replay the same thing, the same game. Some of this people are stupid, or those accounts are bots? >:( It's very frustrating when they always recommend the same stupid clone, it damages the discovery of other role-playing games, real games...
- What old/modern no-dnd games do you recommend?
- There is a good list of OSR games somewhere?
From personal experience I can recommend Dungeon Crawl Classics. I had a great time playing that one at a con back in March.
I have picked up Old School Essentials, but haven't played it yet. I know it's very popular within the OSR community, so I'd imagine it's pretty good, and from what I've read it certainly seems like it will be fun when I can play it.
For Coin and Blood is one you might look into from a smaller publisher. Alan is a good guy (full disclosure: we're friends). It's very much in the vein of "you're not heroes; you're blackguards, thieves, assassins, and other unsavory folk just looking to make a buck."
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
- What old/modern no-dnd games do you recommend?
- There is a good list of OSR games somewhere?
If by "no-dnd" you mean games that aren't derived from D&D, then many of the posters here will consider those to not be OSR games. It's not clear what you're asking for. Nor is it clear exactly what you were asking, or why you didn't like their answers; skimming back a few days in r/osr I can't easily guess who you are or which were your questions. But, guessing that your problem is with OSE, you'll find a lot of the public discourse dominated by OSE at the moment.
Quotewhich is a clone actually and nothing more
You likely want to be looking at non-OSR games; even if you don't have a narrow definition of the OSR, most of the best OSR games in my experience are more clone than not.
https://unsoundmethodsblog.wordpress.com/2023/03/12/twenty-osr-systems-reviewed/ is a month-old post with capsule descriptions of 20 OSR systems... and you'll see commenters there unhelpfully spamming things like
Quote"OSR" means "play compatible with TSR era Dungeons and Dragons"
edit:
Just three days ago somebody posted https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/12dj5sw/need_advice_getting_into_osr/ and seems to be getting a huge variation of answers?
Some OSR games for consideration:
Swords & Wizardry: a retroclone and restating of OD&D
Hyperborea: turn up the pulp influences of earlier D&D, specifically Robert E Howard, H.P. Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith, and tear the knob off, with a system built off 1E AD&D
Lamentations of the Flame Princess: built off B/X with a dark, gritty tone and a renaissance/ early modern setting
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
What old/modern no-dnd games do you recommend?
What does no-dnd mean?
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
There is a good list of OSR games somewhere?
Besides going to DTTRPG and searching for OSR: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?filters=45582_0_0_0_0 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?filters=45582_0_0_0_0)
Fantasy: https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2022/05/updating-list-of-free-osr-games-with.html (https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2022/05/updating-list-of-free-osr-games-with.html)
Sci-Fi: https://www.tenkarstavern.com/p/free-osr-rulesets-scifi.html (https://www.tenkarstavern.com/p/free-osr-rulesets-scifi.html)
Comprehensive list (Includes PbtA and other stuff not many consider OSR tho): https://ynasmidgard.blogspot.com/2016/08/comprehensive-list-of-osr-games.html (https://ynasmidgard.blogspot.com/2016/08/comprehensive-list-of-osr-games.html)
Taxidermic Owlbear's list: http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html (http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html)
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
I'm new to the hobby, as a beginner one of the first place I use to search for answer was reddit, specially the OSR community.
Something I found frustrating, they always recommend the same game (which is a clone actually and nothing more) even when I ask for something else, something unrelated they replay the same thing, the same game.
It's not specific of that sub, it's more or less a "feature" of reddit: once the general consensus has been reached (meaning: a sufficient number of users agrees with a specific answer) it's practically impossible to go against it.
For example, on the /rpg subreddit (which is literally infested by forgies) the general opionion is:
- Rules light = good
- Powered by the Apocalypse = good
- Blades in the Dark = good
- Modern = good
- Lancer = good
- D&D = bad
- D&D 4th edition = good
- Everything contrary to the above = bad
Ask for
everything in /rpg and your answer will be one of the above (or a combination of two or more if you're lucky), with tons of upvotes from the supporting claque.
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
I'm new to the hobby, as a beginner one of the first place I use to search for answer was reddit, specially the OSR community.
Something I found frustrating, they always recommend the same game (which is a clone actually and nothing more) even when I ask for something else, something unrelated they replay the same thing, the same game. Some of this people are stupid, or those accounts are bots? >:( It's very frustrating when they always recommend the same stupid clone, it damages the discovery of other role-playing games, real games...
- What old/modern no-dnd games do you recommend?
- There is a good list of OSR games somewhere?
While Old-School Essentials is the latest hotness, I've gotten good play from Basic Fantasy and Advanced Labyrinth Lord.
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
I'm new to the hobby, as a beginner one of the first place I use to search for answer was reddit,
Answer to what?
Quote from: the crypt keeper on April 09, 2023, 03:21:29 PM
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
I'm new to the hobby, as a beginner one of the first place I use to search for answer was reddit,
Answer to what?
Agreed. I have found reddit the worst place to find an answer. Sites like TheRPGSite and the RPG Pub are the best places to go for answers. The RPGSite is always the first stop.
OSE is so popular because it *is* Moldvay Basic/Cook & Marsh Expert.
It's a clone of a very good set of rules. The only reason to buy it instead of PDFs of B/X is because of art, and maybe the organization is easier.
A different set of rules that is OSR-adjacent is "Dungeon World". It was recommended by "Old Geezer" on enworld; Old Geezer is (I'm pretty sure) Mike Mornard, who was one of Gary Gygax's original players.
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 09, 2023, 06:21:46 PM
OSE is so popular because it *is* Moldvay Basic/Cook & Marsh Expert.
It's a clone of a very good set of rules. The only reason to buy it instead of PDFs of B/X is because of art, and maybe the organization is easier.
A different set of rules that is OSR-adjacent is "Dungeon World". It was recommended by "Old Geezer" on enworld; Old Geezer is (I'm pretty sure) Mike Mornard, who was one of Gary Gygax's original players.
Fuck "Dungeon World" and its bullshit.
While we are at it, fuck "Old Geezer" and his low-calorie communism.
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 09, 2023, 06:21:46 PM
OSE is so popular because it *is* Moldvay Basic/Cook & Marsh Expert.
It's a clone of a very good set of rules. The only reason to buy it instead of PDFs of B/X is because of art, and maybe the organization is easier.
Yep. I am moving over to OSR and Old School Essentials because I read a bunch of different OSR products and it was OSE that really checked all the boxes.
I don't really consider myself an OSR player/GM, so I don't have much to offer there.
For non-D&D the two games I recommend now are Shadow of the Demon Lord and Savage Worlds. SotDL is a better d20 system than 5e and Savage Worlds is a very different game that is not d20 based at all, but is very flexible in terms of setting and style.
A bit contradictory requirements in the original post. OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible. OSR games are mostly people's D&D modified with their house rules.
But, if you want alternates, then I'll do my best.
1. Palladium Fantasy 1E. It's old, from the 1980's. It's mostly different because it use an opposed roll system of 1D20 strike vs 1D20 parry. Armor is extra hit points, and armor class (called armor rating) is to see if a hit is on the armor or person inside. Armor will degrade in its own hit points and armor rating as it gets wrecked.
Example. I roll a 11 to strike, the orc rolls a 7 to parry, so I hit. However, the orc is wearing armor with a rating of 12. I hit the orc's armor, dropping it below 50% of its starting hit points. The orc's armor rating drops by 2, and is now A.R.:10.
2. Pocket Fantasy. An entire RPG in four pages. It also uses only 1D6 for all rolls. Hit points never change, but re-rolls do. The more you play, the more re-rolls you can use. Like Palladium Fantasy the combat is opposed rolls. This time it's damage vs damage blocked. I roll a 5 to hit, the orc rolls a 3 to block, I do 2 damage to the orc. There are also a couple of supplements to add more classes and gear.
It's also totally free.
Thank you everyone! Sorry for the late response, I was busy.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 09, 2023, 10:56:50 AM
From personal experience I can recommend Dungeon Crawl Classics. I had a great time playing that one at a con back in March.
I have picked up Old School Essentials, but haven't played it yet. I know it's very popular within the OSR community, so I'd imagine it's pretty good, and from what I've read it certainly seems like it will be fun when I can play it.
For Coin and Blood is one you might look into from a smaller publisher. Alan is a good guy (full disclosure: we're friends). It's very much in the vein of "you're not heroes; you're blackguards, thieves, assassins, and other unsavory folk just looking to make a buck."
Thank you never hear of Coin and Blood. Dungeon Crawl Classic is on my list :D OSE Is the game I was referring in my post haha I don't want a clone of existent game.
Quote from: Naburimannu on April 09, 2023, 11:23:18 AM
If by "no-dnd" you mean games that aren't derived from D&D, then many of the posters here will consider those to not be OSR games. It's not clear what you're asking for. Nor is it clear exactly what you were asking, or why you didn't like their answers; skimming back a few days in r/osr I can't easily guess who you are or which were your questions. But, guessing that your problem is with OSE, you'll find a lot of the public discourse dominated by OSE at the moment.
Quotewhich is a clone actually and nothing more
You likely want to be looking at non-OSR games; even if you don't have a narrow definition of the OSR, most of the best OSR games in my experience are more clone than not.
https://unsoundmethodsblog.wordpress.com/2023/03/12/twenty-osr-systems-reviewed/ is a month-old post with capsule descriptions of 20 OSR systems... and you'll see commenters there unhelpfully spamming things like Quote"OSR" means "play compatible with TSR era Dungeons and Dragons"
edit:
Just three days ago somebody posted https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/12dj5sw/need_advice_getting_into_osr/ and seems to be getting a huge variation of answers?
Haha exactly OSE is the issue, and sorry for the rant. The situation is if I ask for whatever recommendation, the majority will say OSE, even when the question is something different. Let me see... I ask for a space game, someone replies "I don't play space game, but you should try OSE", or I ask for original D&D and some cool setting, someone replies "Did you try OSE with ABC adventure?" come on... is very annoying that people recommend a clone endless of times, is exahausting. When I asked a game for a beginner, because I never played an RPG, people recommend OSE. Anyone with 0 knowledge how to play an RPG, OSE is the worst.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on April 09, 2023, 11:54:09 AM
Some OSR games for consideration:
Swords & Wizardry: a retroclone and restating of OD&D
Hyperborea: turn up the pulp influences of earlier D&D, specifically Robert E Howard, H.P. Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith, and tear the knob off, with a system built off 1E AD&D
Lamentations of the Flame Princess: built off B/X with a dark, gritty tone and a renaissance/ early modern setting
Thank you for the Hyperborea recomendation.
Quote from: Vestragor on April 09, 2023, 01:33:47 PM
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
I'm new to the hobby, as a beginner one of the first place I use to search for answer was reddit, specially the OSR community.
Something I found frustrating, they always recommend the same game (which is a clone actually and nothing more) even when I ask for something else, something unrelated they replay the same thing, the same game.
It's not specific of that sub, it's more or less a "feature" of reddit: once the general consensus has been reached (meaning: a sufficient number of users agrees with a specific answer) it's practically impossible to go against it.
For example, on the /rpg subreddit (which is literally infested by forgies) the general opionion is:
- Rules light = good
- Powered by the Apocalypse = good
- Blades in the Dark = good
- Modern = good
- Lancer = good
- D&D = bad
- D&D 4th edition = good
- Everything contrary to the above = bad
Ask for everything in /rpg and your answer will be one of the above (or a combination of two or more if you're lucky), with tons of upvotes from the supporting claque.
Exactly my point ;D
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 09, 2023, 06:21:46 PM
OSE is so popular because it *is* Moldvay Basic/Cook & Marsh Expert.
It's a clone of a very good set of rules. The only reason to buy it instead of PDFs of B/X is because of art, and maybe the organization is easier.
A different set of rules that is OSR-adjacent is "Dungeon World". It was recommended by "Old Geezer" on enworld; Old Geezer is (I'm pretty sure) Mike Mornard, who was one of Gary Gygax's original players.
I don't even mentioned the game, and you know what game I was referring to ;D thank you for the Dungeon World recommendation, never heard it before, I'll add to the game list.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 09, 2023, 06:38:05 PM
Fuck "Dungeon World" and its bullshit.
While we are at it, fuck "Old Geezer" and his low-calorie communism.
oops ok I'll remove it from the game list haha
Quote from: Hzilong on April 09, 2023, 11:26:11 PM
I don't really consider myself an OSR player/GM, so I don't have much to offer there.
For non-D&D the two games I recommend now are Shadow of the Demon Lord and Savage Worlds. SotDL is a better d20 system than 5e and Savage Worlds is a very different game that is not d20 based at all, but is very flexible in terms of setting and style.
Cool ;) I already want to play it just by reading the name. Thank you.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
A bit contradictory requirements in the original post. OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible. OSR games are mostly people's D&D modified with their house rules.
But, if you want alternates, then I'll do my best.
1. Palladium Fantasy 1E. It's old, from the 1980's. It's mostly different because it use an opposed roll system of 1D20 strike vs 1D20 parry. Armor is extra hit points, and armor class (called armor rating) is to see if a hit is on the armor or person inside. Armor will degrade in its own hit points and armor rating as it gets wrecked.
Example. I roll a 11 to strike, the orc rolls a 7 to parry, so I hit. However, the orc is wearing armor with a rating of 12. I hit the orc's armor, dropping it below 50% of its starting hit points. The orc's armor rating drops by 2, and is now A.R.:10.
2. Pocket Fantasy. An entire RPG in four pages. It also uses only 1D6 for all rolls. Hit points never change, but re-rolls do. The more you play, the more re-rolls you can use. Like Palladium Fantasy the combat is opposed rolls. This time it's damage vs damage blocked. I roll a 5 to hit, the orc rolls a 3 to block, I do 2 damage to the orc. There are also a couple of supplements to add more classes and gear.
It's also totally free
I know, sorry for not asking in a better way, I was in a hurry that day. Palladium seems interesting, well actually Pocket fantasy too. I'll take a look.
I mean any game is fine, but a clone?? and $30? $40 USD fuck no! :D
What is the business? Clone a game, house rule a bit and sell it for $40 USD? ???
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 09, 2023, 06:38:05 PM
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 09, 2023, 06:21:46 PM
OSE is so popular because it *is* Moldvay Basic/Cook & Marsh Expert.
It's a clone of a very good set of rules. The only reason to buy it instead of PDFs of B/X is because of art, and maybe the organization is easier.
A different set of rules that is OSR-adjacent is "Dungeon World". It was recommended by "Old Geezer" on enworld; Old Geezer is (I'm pretty sure) Mike Mornard, who was one of Gary Gygax's original players.
Fuck "Dungeon World" and its bullshit.
While we are at it, fuck "Old Geezer" and his low-calorie communism.
Agreed. Mornard is a major douche who thinks "because he was there" he knows it all. Glad he's not on most of the places I frequent. I ignore him if he shows his ugly mug.
To the OP: Castles & Crusades is a good game. So is Hyperborea.
Quote from: Cathal on April 10, 2023, 04:56:07 PM
I mean any game is fine, but a clone?? and $30? $40 USD fuck no! :D
What is the business? Clone a game, house rule a bit and sell it for $40 USD? ???
Try BFRPG, it is free in PDF and the book are cheap. OSE looks better but the BFRPG are more refined IMO.
Here is my comparison of B/X clones and similar games:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/01/a-glance-at-basic-d-bx-and-some-clones.html
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
2. Pocket Fantasy. An entire RPG in four pages. It also uses only 1D6 for all rolls. Hit points never change, but re-rolls do. The more you play, the more re-rolls you can use. Like Palladium Fantasy the combat is opposed rolls. This time it's damage vs damage blocked. I roll a 5 to hit, the orc rolls a 3 to block, I do 2 damage to the orc. There are also a couple of supplements to add more classes and gear.
That looks interesting. Even the pay extras are only a couple bucks. Will have to look at that.
I am of the opinion that OSR stands for either old-school revival or old-school renaissance, but that it doesn't mean it has to be based on D&D because there were plenty of non-D&D games back when I was in actual old-school. By example, here's a list of the earliest OSR games, not all of which were D&D.
- 2004 Castles & Crusades, often credited as the start of the OSR movement. A new take on D&D.
- 2006 OSRIC, a clone of 1st ed AD&D. Originally not a stand-alone game; you could publish supplements without getting sued by labeling them "compatible with OSRIC."
- 2006 Basic Fantasy, a clone of Basic D&D.
- 2007 Labyrinth Lord, another clone of Basic D&D.
- 2007 GORE, a clone of Chaosium's d100 rules. By the same author as Labyrinth Lord. Obviously he didn't think OSR meant only D&D.
- 2008 Mutant Future, a clone of Gamma World, a third OSR clone from the same guy. Gamma World is also not D&D.
- 2008 Swords & Wizardry, originally a clone of the 1974 Original D&D.
Anyway, you're looking for game recommendations, old or new, that are not D&D. Other than that I don't know what you're looking for. Here are a few that I like.
- Classic Traveller. The ancestor of the current Traveller game written and published by Mongoose. The original is better. It's clean, simple, flexible, and it's a classic for a reason. I recommend The Traveller Book from 1982 as a convenient one-volume set. You can currently get a hardcover reprint plus PDF from Drivethru (I know, bad vendor) on sale for $20. If you insist on something more modern go with one of the Cepheus Engine clones.
- Classic Runequest (Runequest 2nd ed). The single volume hardcover from 1980, not the modern one. Available for $14.95 PDF only on Drivethru, or a hardcover direct from Chaosium's site on sale for $18.99. This is a percentile skill-based system that at one time was second in popularity only to D&D. If you want something lighter or more modern I recommend Openquest, a rules-lite clone.
- Call of Cthulhu. Now in its 7th edition, which was significantly rewritten (and which I don't like), I would recommend any of the older editions (which are all inter-compatible). This also from Chaosium, using the same d100 system as Runequest. Based on the works of HP Lovecraft, you investigate occult incidents and go slowly mad as you learn more about the underlying horrors of the universe. If you want something more modern and free, as well as lite, search for Cthulhu Eternal, a clone that you can get for play in different eras.
- Warbirds, this is a modern game. The Caribbean has been transported somewhere and is now a chain of floating islands. It's a pulp adventure-type RPG where you play pilots. I have the books but haven't played yet.
- Honor + Intrigue. A modern game about swashbucklers, based on the Barbarians of Lemuria system. Own but haven't played yet.
If you can handle OSR games that are not clones of D&D but are based on the underlying system, I can recommend the following.
- Lamentations of the Flame Princess, as someone already mentioned.
- Apes Victorious, a Planet of the Apes game I like. By the same guy who wrote GORE and Mutant Future and Labyrinth Lord.
- Ghastly Affair, a gothic horror game.
- Warriors of the Red Planet, one of a number of OSR games set on Burroughs' version of Mars, Barsoom.
I have plenty of other recommendations if you like, just let me know what you're interested in. Have fun!
Quote from: Cathal on April 09, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
I'm new to the hobby, as a beginner one of the first place I use to search for answer was reddit, specially the OSR community.
Something I found frustrating, they always recommend the same game (which is a clone actually and nothing more) even when I ask for something else, something unrelated they replay the same thing, the same game. Some of this people are stupid, or those accounts are bots? >:( It's very frustrating when they always recommend the same stupid clone, it damages the discovery of other role-playing games, real games...
- What old/modern no-dnd games do you recommend?
- There is a good list of OSR games somewhere?
This forum is a great place to learn about RPGs. You are in the right place. Welcome. I am a D&D genre fan; so I need to allow others to make recommendations, regarding non-D&D RPGs.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
A bit contradictory requirements in the original post. OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible. OSR games are mostly people's D&D modified with their house rules.
That lasted all of ten minutes before people were using OSR as an excuse to steal any game. Part of why some game designers look on the OSR so negatively.
Quote from: Omega on April 21, 2023, 12:44:30 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
A bit contradictory requirements in the original post. OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible. OSR games are mostly people's D&D modified with their house rules.
That lasted all of ten minutes before people were using OSR as an excuse to steal any game. Part of why some game designers look on the OSR so negatively.
If ANY game was stolen we would have seen the lawsuits.
I was typing up a reply with the typo "Castes and Crusades", which seems like that could be a pretty decent game itself.
That stated, PHB is still free: https://www.trolllord.com/tlgstore/#!/Players-Handbook-7th-Pr-FREE-Digital/p/89198209/category=119538267
I would pick C&C over 90% of other OSR games at this point, and you cannot beat free. Also free is Swords & Wizardry White Box, and the printed copy is less than $5.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/190631/White-Box--Fantastic-Medieval-Adventure-Game
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1545516480?psc=1
Blueholme would be a third pick from me, also free/cheap.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/109409/BLUEHOLMETM-Prentice-Rules
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/138744994X?psc=1
At this point I don't really consider Old School Essentials as technically "OSR" as it is literally B/X. The Advanced stuff is...okay. I do not really care for the implementation. If I want B/X/BECMI-style AD&D, Advanced Labyrinth Lord does a much better job.
EDIT: Dark horse candidate: Fantastic Heroes and Witchery. Probably the best original (in the truest sense of the word) OSR game out there. And free! I would also consider Pundit's Lion & Dragon if you want a medieval flavor, although most people typically are looking for high fantasy or swords and sorcery, not historical games.
http://www.dcrouzet.net/heroes-witchery/?page_id=83
EDIT2: Saw this statement, "What old/modern no-dnd games do you recommend?"
Are you talking about non-fantasy games specifically? If so, I'd have to say just play Classic Traveller for scifi: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/355200/Classic-Traveller-Facsimile-Edition
For other playstyles, there are a bunch of S&W White box-derived games like White Lies and Operation White Box. Not a fan of White Star when Traveller exists and is only a couple bucks.
Quote from: Baron on April 20, 2023, 11:01:53 PM
- Classic Traveller. The ancestor of the current Traveller game written and published by Mongoose. The original is better. It's clean, simple, flexible, and it's a classic for a reason. I recommend The Traveller Book from 1982 as a convenient one-volume set. You can currently get a hardcover reprint plus PDF from Drivethru (I know, bad vendor) on sale for $20. If you insist on something more modern go with one of the Cepheus Engine clones.
I actually recommend Stellagama over the original, simply because the rules are better organized. In particular, I like "Cepheus: Faster Than Light!", which has the additional advantage of the PDF being available for free. (We don't buy paper.) Otherwise, Bundle of Holding always sells the $25 LBB pack of PDFs in their store. (Not sure what other LBB sets are available, as we bought our PDFs when you ordered off of Marc Miller's website and got sent an actual CD-ROM of PDFs.)
I think I'm going to have to write up a long description of Stellagama's 3 (or 4?) systems, and which components go with which system, as that is the biggest drawback of figuring out what supplement goes with what. They have Cepheus Deluxe, which is the all-the-rules version. Then they have Cepheus Light, which is simpler. And then they have Cepheus Quantum, which is very minimalist. Our Traveller group is doing a playtest of the new version of their sword and sorcery rules in a week. The Quantum system looks interesting - only a handful of skills and only a handful of stats for a character.
BFRPG is indeed the cheapest, but its production values are so low and the writing so bad that they should probably pay you to suffer through it. But hey, it exists.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 21, 2023, 09:55:04 AM
BFRPG is indeed the cheapest, but its production values are so low and the writing so bad that they should probably pay you to suffer through it. But hey, it exists.
I think when someone said "You get what you pay for" they were looking at BFRPG.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 21, 2023, 09:55:04 AM
BFRPG is indeed the cheapest, but its production values are so low and the writing so bad that they should probably pay you to suffer through it. But hey, it exists.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 10:23:16 AM
I think when someone said "You get what you pay for" they were looking at BFRPG.
Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way...I actually bought all the printed stuff off Amazon but ended up giving it away because I did not care for it whatsoever. Barring the writing, I just think as presented it falls flat as a D&D-style game.
Quote from: Brad on April 21, 2023, 09:02:51 AM
EDIT2: Saw this statement, "What old/modern no-dnd games do you recommend?"
Are you talking about non-fantasy games specifically? If so, I'd have to say just play Classic Traveller for scifi: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/355200/Classic-Traveller-Facsimile-Edition
For other playstyles, there are a bunch of S&W White box-derived games like White Lies and Operation White Box. Not a fan of White Star when Traveller exists and is only a couple bucks.
Hey Brad. Thanks.. oh! RPGs That Aren't D&D. NON-D&D RPGs. :) Your reply is good! ;D
Can be any recommendation. It would be great to discover other RPGs instead of the typical zealots that only mention OSE.
Quote from: Brad on April 21, 2023, 09:02:51 AM
EDIT: Dark horse candidate: Fantastic Heroes and Witchery. Probably the best original (in the truest sense of the word) OSR game out there. And free! I would also consider Pundit's Lion & Dragon if you want a medieval flavor, although most people typically are looking for high fantasy or swords and sorcery, not historical games.
http://www.dcrouzet.net/heroes-witchery/?page_id=83
Nice! Thanks man! Never hear of this game before.
The presentation of BFRPG is not great, but I've run some adventures (especially Blackapple) and it's been fun.
The actual rules are a small improvement over B/X, IMO.
I mentioned it because the OP said something about price and BFRPG is hard to beat. I do not think "you get what you pay for" is a fair assessment of the adventures, for example, even tough they are very vanilla - but I do prefer DCC ones.
But my favorite rules (other than my own) for Basic clones is probably LotFP.
Also, FH&W is a thing of beauty. Complete, streamlined, gonzo, all at the same time.
FWIW, here is my comparison of basic clones:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/01/a-glance-at-basic-d-bx-and-some-clones.html
Quote from: Brad on April 21, 2023, 10:34:31 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 21, 2023, 09:55:04 AM
BFRPG is indeed the cheapest, but its production values are so low and the writing so bad that they should probably pay you to suffer through it. But hey, it exists.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 10:23:16 AM
I think when someone said "You get what you pay for" they were looking at BFRPG.
Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way...I actually bought all the printed stuff off Amazon but ended up giving it away because I did not care for it whatsoever. Barring the writing, I just think as presented it falls flat as a D&D-style game.
Why is it that you think it falls flat? Im just curious, ive never actually read the game myself but opions seem split between best thing ever and absolute trash when people bring it up.
Quote from: Slambo on April 21, 2023, 02:03:03 PM
Why is it that you think it falls flat? Im just curious, ive never actually read the game myself but opions seem split between best thing ever and absolute trash when people bring it up.
I think it tries to solve too many of the perceived problems inherent in B/X, while not actually fixing anything. I don't particularly care for the design choices such as divorcing race-from-class but providing a watered-down version of AD&D races instead, along with only four classes. Blueholme Journeyman does this, but more much effectively. It's hard to pinpoint any particular thing that is a blatant game breaker, just a lot of minor annoyances that add up to something unappealing to me. If D&D is a pizza, B/X is pepperoni, BECMI is Italian sausage, AD&D is meat lovers with peppers, Holmes is probably cheese, and Basic Fantasy is Hawaiian with some weird white sauce and a cauliflower crust. Like pick ONE thing to "fix", not a bunch of them and make questionable choices.
Also, the adventures are serviceable but written by people who have good intentions but are not professionals. Nothing wrong with that, but there aren't any Keep on the Borderlands, more like stuff anyone on this board could whip up in a couple hours.
Quote from: Brad on April 21, 2023, 10:34:31 AM
Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way...I actually bought all the printed stuff off Amazon but ended up giving it away because I did not care for it whatsoever. Barring the writing, I just think as presented it falls flat as a D&D-style game.
Played it with someone who is a good DM and it just didnt do it for me. It was way too bare bones for me, the writing wasn't great and it just didnt impress me.
The DM gave us .pdfs of the core book and he actually had a print copy of the rules and I looked over it. Production value seemed very poor.
Quote from: Brad on April 21, 2023, 02:23:43 PM
Quote from: Slambo on April 21, 2023, 02:03:03 PM
Why is it that you think it falls flat? Im just curious, ive never actually read the game myself but opions seem split between best thing ever and absolute trash when people bring it up.
I think it tries to solve too many of the perceived problems inherent in B/X, while not actually fixing anything. I don't particularly care for the design choices such as divorcing race-from-class but providing a watered-down version of AD&D races instead, along with only four classes. Blueholme Journeyman does this, but more much effectively. It's hard to pinpoint any particular thing that is a blatant game breaker, just a lot of minor annoyances that add up to something unappealing to me. If D&D is a pizza, B/X is pepperoni, BECMI is Italian sausage, AD&D is meat lovers with peppers, Holmes is probably cheese, and Basic Fantasy is Hawaiian with some weird white sauce and a cauliflower crust. Like pick ONE thing to "fix", not a bunch of them and make questionable choices.
Also, the adventures are serviceable but written by people who have good intentions but are not professionals. Nothing wrong with that, but there aren't any Keep on the Borderlands, more like stuff anyone on this board could whip up in a couple hours.
Good summary. As I noted, the production values are terrible. As for the adventures, they truly feel like they were written by 13 year olds. The higher level ones in particular are total Monty Haul style. Now that can be fun for a few sessions, but as an overall system I find it completely bland and soulless.
Quote from: Brad on April 21, 2023, 02:23:43 PM
Quote from: Slambo on April 21, 2023, 02:03:03 PM
Why is it that you think it falls flat? Im just curious, ive never actually read the game myself but opions seem split between best thing ever and absolute trash when people bring it up.
I think it tries to solve too many of the perceived problems inherent in B/X, while not actually fixing anything. I don't particularly care for the design choices such as divorcing race-from-class but providing a watered-down version of AD&D races instead, along with only four classes. Blueholme Journeyman does this, but more much effectively. It's hard to pinpoint any particular thing that is a blatant game breaker, just a lot of minor annoyances that add up to something unappealing to me. If D&D is a pizza, B/X is pepperoni, BECMI is Italian sausage, AD&D is meat lovers with peppers, Holmes is probably cheese, and Basic Fantasy is Hawaiian with some weird white sauce and a cauliflower crust. Like pick ONE thing to "fix", not a bunch of them and make questionable choices.
Also, the adventures are serviceable but written by people who have good intentions but are not professionals. Nothing wrong with that, but there aren't any Keep on the Borderlands, more like stuff anyone on this board could whip up in a couple hours.
Thank you, i should probably just read it for myself one day, but nothing really caught my eye when i skimmed through it.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible.
It is. ZeFRS is probably the best example.
Quote from: migo on April 22, 2023, 08:54:22 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible.
It is. ZeFRS is probably the best example.
....
....
Zealots entering Fantasy Realms Stealthily
Zeb's Fantasy Roleplaying System for those who aren't familiar with it.
https://sites.google.com/site/zefrsrpg/
Quote from: migo on April 22, 2023, 10:28:29 AM
Zeb's Fantasy Roleplaying System for those who aren't familiar with it.
https://sites.google.com/site/zefrsrpg/
That was going to be my next guess.
I'll check it out. Thnx!
Quote from: migo on April 22, 2023, 08:54:22 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible.
It is. ZeFRS is probably the best example.
And if you don't accept the broadening of the definition until it includes EVERYTHING that ISN'T part of the thing then you're a bigot.
Suggestion for Mattt Walsh's next documentary: What is the OSR?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 22, 2023, 03:56:10 PM
Quote from: migo on April 22, 2023, 08:54:22 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible.
It is. ZeFRS is probably the best example.
And if you don't accept the broadening of the definition until it includes EVERYTHING that ISN'T part of the thing then you're a bigot.
Suggestion for Mattt Walsh's next documentary: What is the OSR?
No, but if you think ZeFRS isn't OSR you're simply an idiot.
It's based on an out of print system that isn't coming back, so the only way to get access to it and play it is through a retroclone. It's exactly what the OSR was about. OSRIC was intended to be a system people could write AD&D 1e adventures for, saying they're OSRIC compatible, to continue providing support for AD&D 1e, and also for people who couldn't get original AD&D 1e rulebooks to be able to play AD&D 1e. That's what ZeFRS does for TSR Conan. It lets people play Conan with the original rules. TSR Conan is old school. ZeFRS revives it. It's OSR literally in the definition, and OSR in the spirit of the earliest games released in the OSR.
Quote from: migo on April 22, 2023, 05:09:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 22, 2023, 03:56:10 PM
Quote from: migo on April 22, 2023, 08:54:22 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
OSR that isn't D&D based isn't possible.
It is. ZeFRS is probably the best example.
And if you don't accept the broadening of the definition until it includes EVERYTHING that ISN'T part of the thing then you're a bigot.
Suggestion for Mattt Walsh's next documentary: What is the OSR?
No, but if you think ZeFRS isn't OSR you're simply an idiot.
It's based on an out of print system that isn't coming back, so the only way to get access to it and play it is through a retroclone. It's exactly what the OSR was about. OSRIC was intended to be a system people could write AD&D 1e adventures for, saying they're OSRIC compatible, to continue providing support for AD&D 1e, and also for people who couldn't get original AD&D 1e rulebooks to be able to play AD&D 1e. That's what ZeFRS does for TSR Conan. It lets people play Conan with the original rules. TSR Conan is old school. ZeFRS revives it. It's OSR literally in the definition, and OSR in the spirit of the earliest games released in the OSR.
Well, then I'm an idiot.
OSR = old edition D&D mechanics up to AD&D 1e/2e 1980s-ish
When you expand the definition to mean "retroclone of ANY game" it looses it's meaning.
Well, beyond quibbling about definitions there's the simple fact that the old Conan game kind of sucks. Pretty shocked it was even revived because I've never met a person IRL who played more than one session of it. But since the creator did it himself, I'm not even sure that counts.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:17:22 PM
But since the creator did it himself, I'm not even sure that counts.
He didn't, he just gave the project his blessing. The guy who made it is Mark Krawec.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 22, 2023, 07:16:56 PM
Well, then I'm an idiot.
We know.
OSR isn't just D&D...it seems to have morphed into that because there is just a massive glut of hackey garbage that essentially is D&D with a couple house rules. Tons of it. It's about an old school mentality, not a specific set of rules...Cepheus Engine is definitely OSR, for instance. That said, I agree with the ZeRFS thing about it not being a good game. I did NOT like that TSR Conan game at all; I greatly preferred the GURPS solo adventures by far and think it did a much better job.
Quote from: migo on April 24, 2023, 04:17:15 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:17:22 PM
But since the creator did it himself, I'm not even sure that counts.
He didn't, he just gave the project his blessing. The guy who made it is Mark Krawec.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 22, 2023, 07:16:56 PM
Well, then I'm an idiot.
We know.
Fuck you too.
I'm not the one expanding definitions to include things that aren't it.
Quote from: Brad on April 24, 2023, 04:57:41 PM
OSR isn't just D&D...it seems to have morphed into that because there is just a massive glut of hackey garbage that essentially is D&D with a couple house rules. Tons of it. It's about an old school mentality, not a specific set of rules...Cepheus Engine is definitely OSR, for instance. That said, I agree with the ZeRFS thing about it not being a good game. I did NOT like that TSR Conan game at all; I greatly preferred the GURPS solo adventures by far and think it did a much better job.
Yeah, no, you're wrong and I don't have the time, patience or crayons to explain to you and Migo just how wrong you are.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2023, 01:28:28 AM
Quote from: Brad on April 24, 2023, 04:57:41 PM
OSR isn't just D&D...it seems to have morphed into that because there is just a massive glut of hackey garbage that essentially is D&D with a couple house rules. Tons of it. It's about an old school mentality, not a specific set of rules...Cepheus Engine is definitely OSR, for instance. That said, I agree with the ZeRFS thing about it not being a good game. I did NOT like that TSR Conan game at all; I greatly preferred the GURPS solo adventures by far and think it did a much better job.
Yeah, no, you're wrong and I don't have the time, patience or crayons to explain to you and Migo just how wrong you are.
Most importantly, you don't have the intelligence.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2023, 01:28:28 AM
Yeah, no, you're wrong and I don't have the time, patience or crayons to explain to you and Migo just how wrong you are.
Excellent evidence and an articulate argument. Certainly convinced me!
The Reddit OSR community can indeed attract a wide range of users, including some bots. It's essential to be discerning. By the way, have you ever checked out Reddit Cryptomoonshots accounts (https://accsmaster.com/buy-reddit-accounts/reddit-accounts-karma)? They can be quite insightful for navigating crypto discussions. Just remember to rely on credible sources for your crypto journey.
:) We've discussed here on this site ages ago that old school renaissance (osr) is definitely encompassing the wide range of first generation RPGs (roughly mid-70s to mid-80s). However we also lamented that in outward market perception only D&D is comprising this space, with other voices being silent to all our detriment. And thus over time new people will not understand the breadth of the term, seeing all they know is their perception of the market from their slice of time, and become needlessly hostile and tribalist against accepted history from those who were there. In fact, as a point of disambiguation we tried capitalized "OSR" for market perception and lower-case "osr" for cultural retro reflection (a larger movement in system breadth and archival effort)... which only lasted for a few months before people got lazy and gave up creating separate jargon here.
;) It is an age old dilemma about the transmission of data and the necessary openness one needs to trace threads & patterns backwards without getting defensive and insular. So congratulations GeekyBugle, you've proven the foretold prophecy! ;D You are the result we warned about! :D We have failed you in our upbringing and now leave you distraght. But take heart, you are learning about this now and can change -- you can expand your heart three-times its size, just like the "Grinch Who Stole Christmas"!
8) Also I have spare crayons if you need them.
Runequest 2e is available on DTRPG. Definitely "OSR" unless it must be a D&D clone is the sole definition (which I think is BS).
Older editions of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying are also easily found on DTRPG.
Moving away from the ongoing argument about what's OSR and what isn't, I'd like to offer an alternative product mention that I haven't seen yet (unless I missed it somewhere here). It's likely many here consider them OSR anyway, but I think of them as their own thing and I'm not interested in playing the taxonomy game.
Fantasy: https://sine-nomine-publishing.myshopify.com/collections/worlds-without-number
Sci-Fi: https://sine-nomine-publishing.myshopify.com/collections/stars-without-number
Cyberpunk: https://sine-nomine-publishing.myshopify.com/products/cities-without-number-offset-print-edition
Three great games. Compatible with each other. Free versions on DTRPG.
Quote from: Brad on April 24, 2023, 04:57:41 PM
OSR isn't just D&D...it seems to have morphed into that because there is just a massive glut of hackey garbage that essentially is D&D with a couple house rules. Tons of it. It's about an old school mentality, not a specific set of rules...Cepheus Engine is definitely OSR, for instance. That said, I agree with the ZeRFS thing about it not being a good game. I did NOT like that TSR Conan game at all; I greatly preferred the GURPS solo adventures by far and think it did a much better job.
I don't like ZeRFS either, because I've never been a fan of the color coded tables for it and Star Frontiers and others. Bleargh.
Another game, with the rather quaint little nickname of "The Rasputin of RPGs", I would highly recommend is Talislanta.
All previous editions save the most recent that was funded on Gamefound and has yet to be released are free to download. http://talislanta.com/
I prefer a mix of 1&2E, myself. 3E is okay too. The magic system in 4E is the convoluted lovechild of a longtime fan of the game and is kind of neat and yet kind of a headache to deal with as well: all spells are designed by the spell-caster's player using the mode system. 5E is more of the same, but with a character design system that can supplant the archetype system if you want it to.
The sixth edition is going back to archetypes again, and for a very short period was going to be based off of 5E. Thankfully more fans of the game spoke up and asked for it not to be than spoke out in favor of it, so there's going to be a conversion book for 5E and the game will use its original Action Table system instead.
Anyway, hope you have a look and enjoy.
Quote from: Cathal on April 10, 2023, 04:39:20 PM
When I asked a game for a beginner, because I never played an RPG, people recommend OSE.
If you've never played an RPG, I would recommend Tunnels & Trolls.
1) The game is simple.
2) Almost all the adventure modules are solo adventures.
Even better join a game run by an experienced and patient gamemaster.
A Savage Worlds game is one of the easier ones for someone new to pick up.
Quote from: Opaopajr on October 01, 2023, 03:46:42 AM
:) We've discussed here on this site ages ago that old school renaissance (osr) is definitely encompassing the wide range of first generation RPGs (roughly mid-70s to mid-80s). However we also lamented that in outward market perception only D&D is comprising this space, with other voices being silent to all our detriment. And thus over time new people will not understand the breadth of the term, seeing all they know is their perception of the market from their slice of time, and become needlessly hostile and tribalist against accepted history from those who were there. In fact, as a point of disambiguation we tried capitalized "OSR" for market perception and lower-case "osr" for cultural retro reflection (a larger movement in system breadth and archival effort)... which only lasted for a few months before people got lazy and gave up creating separate jargon here.
;) It is an age old dilemma about the transmission of data and the necessary openness one needs to trace threads & patterns backwards without getting defensive and insular. So congratulations GeekyBugle, you've proven the foretold prophecy! ;D You are the result we warned about! :D We have failed you in our upbringing and now leave you distraght. But take heart, you are learning about this now and can change -- you can expand your heart three-times its size, just like the "Grinch Who Stole Christmas"!
8) Also I have spare crayons if you need them.
"When everyone's Super...
No one will be!"
Congratulations you included stuff to the point where you can't use the term in any useful way.
I'm not sure how this relates to Reddit or bots, but it's been a long time since I first followed this thread, so I guess I'll pipe up.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that folks would argue about what we mean when we use the term OSR.
"Old School" is a pretty generic term. I think most folks can agree with the number one Merriam-Webster definition: adhering to traditional policies or practices. I think as gamers we can agree that we mean something along the lines of "how things were back in the early days of our hobby."
Isn't that enough?
Does that somehow not use the term in any useful way?
Because other groups can manage to use the term "Old School" to refer to their own interests.
Quote from: Baron on October 01, 2023, 07:44:26 PM
I'm not sure how this relates to Reddit or bots, but it's been a long time since I first followed this thread, so I guess I'll pipe up.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that folks would argue about what we mean when we use the term OSR.
"Old School" is a pretty generic term. I think most folks can agree with the number one Merriam-Webster definition: adhering to traditional policies or practices. I think as gamers we can agree that we mean something along the lines of "how things were back in the early days of our hobby."
Isn't that enough?
Does that somehow not use the term in any useful way?
Because other groups can manage to use the term "Old School" to refer to their own interests.
It really should be. But the basic premise of humanity, which is get enough people together and they become capable of ruining anything, applies here. So originally, as I understand and remember it, was that the Old School (Revival, Renaissance,what have you)really burst on the scene around 2008, when WOTC launched 4th edition D&D. There were certainly old school games being played well before that but clone mania, as I call it, started booming around 2008. This is when publishers really started creating and marketing products aimed those who favored old school gaming. Finally, for those that prefered old school games there was once again a thriving market to provide them the kinds of products that they were interested in. The old school marketplace is still chugging right along and I believe it may be getting a huge boost as early reactions to the new One D&D are not terribly favorable to many players who actively played and liked 5E. So that is what it means to me, people publishing and preserving styles of games that were played in the earlier days of the hobby.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2023, 07:25:46 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on October 01, 2023, 03:46:42 AM
:) We've discussed here on this site ages ago that old school renaissance (osr) is definitely encompassing the wide range of first generation RPGs (roughly mid-70s to mid-80s). However we also lamented that in outward market perception only D&D is comprising this space, with other voices being silent to all our detriment. And thus over time new people will not understand the breadth of the term, seeing all they know is their perception of the market from their slice of time, and become needlessly hostile and tribalist against accepted history from those who were there. In fact, as a point of disambiguation we tried capitalized "OSR" for market perception and lower-case "osr" for cultural retro reflection (a larger movement in system breadth and archival effort)... which only lasted for a few months before people got lazy and gave up creating separate jargon here.
;) It is an age old dilemma about the transmission of data and the necessary openness one needs to trace threads & patterns backwards without getting defensive and insular. So congratulations GeekyBugle, you've proven the foretold prophecy! ;D You are the result we warned about! :D We have failed you in our upbringing and now leave you distraght. But take heart, you are learning about this now and can change -- you can expand your heart three-times its size, just like the "Grinch Who Stole Christmas"!
8) Also I have spare crayons if you need them.
"When everyone's Super...
No one will be!"
Congratulations you included stuff to the point where you can't use the term in any useful way.
It is cute that you quote The Incredibles movie, but within my post that you quoted you will see there is a very understandable and agreed upon cut-off definition. I bolded it in case you missed it. It was my first sentence. ;)
So even by employing your pithy rejoinder you are still wrong, because everything is not considered within the two "Super" conditions: a) first generation RPGs, b) during that first decade time frame (mid 1970s-1980s). Those conditions while broadening what it means to be old school, excludes a lot. It means not even your clap back agrees with you, because it is not what is going on here.
What is going on is in that explanatory paragraph you quoted. :) And that you are resisting the mind expanding awareness that causes. It's OK, we knew this would happen many years ago when we talked about this happening. And we wholly expected frustration, denial, and hurt at being shown the truth.
Take your time to heal, but know it's just part of the process of life to have lazy, ill-defined, and deeply intertwined mix things up. :) That's why being open and relaxed helps us get through this challenge called aging on a large planet. Pushing everyone away and tightening up will not get you back to a "safe & simple" understanding of the world; we don't get to return to innocence like that. 8)