https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTrove/comments/o7dpt9/what_happened_to_the_trove/

There's some real whoppers there. Now, they hate Daniel D. Fox, which is good, but for different reasons. The amount of entitled whining in there is something else. Apparently only rich kids could afford RPG's--who knew?

Here's one particular mouth breather justifying bad behavior:

QuoteI have a tremendous respect for the gaming community tolerating The Trove. The business model of book publishing is completely outdated in the digital era and needs complete overhaul. The gaming community should be inclusive to all regardless of economic means and globally regardless of country poverty.

The Trove has just forced game publishers authors etc to flex to a model of the future where you expect your work to be freely available and you make your money from people who want to pay you directly, people who can afford it, and people who want the premium printed versions and physical versions.

That does mean eliminsting tthe bloated middleman system of pre-digital publishing with all the parasites feeding off the actual creators.

The same dynamic is happening in music production. The music industry is in upheaval but smart musicians are setting up ways to adapt to a totally new model where their work gets widely available for free - and what artist or musician doesnt want their work to get heard seen or read - and they get paid more directly for premium value like concerts patreon vinyl versions merchandise etc.

Don't believe the capitalist dinosaurs trashing The Trove. All books are free is a completely viable reality that supports both creators and also people who can't afford premium print etc. Be proud of The Trove and look forward to it coming back. And also if you have some favorite designers and creators look them up find their paypal and vimeo and send them some money directly. And be glad your beloved game system can be played by anyone not just rich kids.

Right because the music industry hasn't been in upheaval for nearly 30 years now. How do bands make their money now? Touring. What's the RPG writer equivalent of touring? An obscure band can make a decent living by selling premium physical products and touring small venues. What about a writer? How many kickstarters have there been where you can get a Goodman Games quality leatherbound book?

Apologies if this thread needs to be deleted.

Yeah, this was annoying as I was using it to avoid giving money to people who say they hate me. Also to look up and research older, out of print games like Boot Hill, or Recon.

The irony of it getting KO'd by Daniel 'Ripped off Warhammer Fantasy' Fox, though, is enough to make me chuckle.

EDIT: I want to add something here, horse. Bands have ALWAYS made their best money touring. There's a reason why the RIAA's enforcements against music piracy didn't exactly stir people, and that's because their contracts were fucking highway robbery. It's also why they desperately fought against digital distribution, because it completely undercut the contract dynamic they'd use to fuck bands over. As it got easier to produce CDs (and later it wasn't even necessary), the distribution model became more and more outdated.

I don't know what the fix is for RPG writers. I've made it clear that I promote pirating material when people straight up state, 'I hate you and don't want your money'. Who am I to argue with them? But I won't pirate Pundit's stuff, or Venger's, or Zak's, or anyone else on the green list (or hell, yellow). Because I want to reward them for not being dickheads (and turning out quality material) with, y'know, cash.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:07:05 AM
Yeah, this was annoying as I was using it to avoid giving money to people who say they hate me. Also to look up and research older, out of print games like Boot Hill, or Recon.

The irony of it getting KO'd by Daniel 'Ripped off Warhammer Fantasy' Fox, though, is enough to make me chuckle.

EDIT: I want to add something here, horse. Bands have ALWAYS made their best money touring. There's a reason why the RIAA's enforcements against music piracy didn't exactly stir people, and that's because their contracts were fucking highway robbery. It's also why they desperately fought against digital distribution, because it completely undercut the contract dynamic they'd use to fuck bands over. As it got easier to produce CDs (and later it wasn't even necessary), the distribution model became more and more outdated.

I don't know what the fix is for RPG writers. I've made it clear that I promote pirating material when people straight up state, 'I hate you and don't want your money'. Who am I to argue with them? But I won't pirate Pundit's stuff, or Venger's, or Zak's, or anyone else on the green list (or hell, yellow). Because I want to reward them for not being dickheads (and turning out quality material) with, y'know, cash.

And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:07:05 AM
I won't pirate ....Zak's... ...Because I want to reward them for not being dickheads

I have some bad news for you there... 

I do think it's hilarious it was Daniel 'Warhammer-Ripoff' 'Penises on Everything (remember that?)' Fox who got the Trove shut down.

"Who Pirates the Pirates?"

Quote from: S'mon on October 05, 2021, 11:15:21 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:07:05 AM
I won't pirate ....Zak's... ...Because I want to reward them for not being dickheads

I have some bad news for you there... 

I do think it's hilarious it was Daniel 'Warhammer-Ripoff' 'Penises on Everything (remember that?)' Fox who got the Trove shut down.

"Who Pirates the Pirates?"

There's a bit of nuance between Zak and I slapfighting a bit here, and some wokeist motherfucker declaring I'm a deplorable and that he doesn't want my money because I'm an evil bigot.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Bold mine for emphasis.

You have Disney to thank for making it even worse.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:23:49 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Bold mine for emphasis.

You have Disney to thank for making it even worse.

Pretty much. If you don't defend IPs ferociously, they slide right into the public domain. The ridiculous extensions Disney has gotten on their properties (via bribing congresscritters) just make it worse.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:25:54 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:23:49 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Bold mine for emphasis.

You have Disney to thank for making it even worse.

Pretty much. If you don't defend IPs ferociously, they slide right into the public domain. The ridiculous extensions Disney has gotten on their properties (via bribing congresscritters) just make it worse.

The worst part is that the IP lapses into public domain but you can still have a trademark on parts of it.

So if you want to make a John Carter anything you have to pay up to the author's state or be very careful not to infringe their trademarks.

Assume DC left Superman get into the public domain... You still wouldn't be able to use the costume in any shape or form. Unless you pay them thru the nose.

Which is why you have so many RPGs with the serial numbers filed off. Easier than paying what you don't have or to risk a lawsuit.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:23:49 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Bold mine for emphasis.

You have Disney to thank for making it even worse.

We can thank celebrity culture to some extent as well, for giving us Sonny "the congressman from Disney" Bono.

Quote from: therealjcm on October 05, 2021, 11:30:46 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:23:49 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Bold mine for emphasis.

You have Disney to thank for making it even worse.

We can thank celebrity culture to some extent as well, for giving us Sonny "the congressman from Disney" Bono.

Yeah, we have several politicians here that can hardly speak but were elected because they were in movies, football (soccer), etc.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:32:28 AM

Quote from: therealjcm on October 05, 2021, 11:30:46 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:23:49 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Bold mine for emphasis.

You have Disney to thank for making it even worse.

We can thank celebrity culture to some extent as well, for giving us Sonny "the congressman from Disney" Bono.

Yeah, we have several politicians here that can hardly speak but were elected because they were in movies, football (soccer), etc.

Although considering the quality of 'professional' politicians, I'm not sure electing amateurs is that bad of an idea.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:33:24 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:32:28 AM

Quote from: therealjcm on October 05, 2021, 11:30:46 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:23:49 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Bold mine for emphasis.

You have Disney to thank for making it even worse.

We can thank celebrity culture to some extent as well, for giving us Sonny "the congressman from Disney" Bono.

Yeah, we have several politicians here that can hardly speak but were elected because they were in movies, football (soccer), etc.

Although considering the quality of 'professional' politicians, I'm not sure electing amateurs is that bad of an idea.

When the "amateurs" are just as corrupt and inept as the professionals at doing anything good but very competent at the bad stuff...

Imagine you and your group overthrow the king of the blackmarshes, at first people might cheer you, but then you and your buddies turn out to be just as bad...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:38:11 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:33:24 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:32:28 AM

Quote from: therealjcm on October 05, 2021, 11:30:46 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:23:49 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 11:15:14 AM
And that last part is why I don't have much sympathy for The Trove, because they would pirate from everybody, even the small developer selfpublishing.

The not being able to find old, out of print games tho...

Edited to add:

But Daniel didn't really kill the piracy nor The Trove, they will find a way to keep on going, torrents, The Bay, private groups somewhere. Like life, piracy finds a way.

It reminds me of the question of 'abandonware'. Is it piracy if it's not even being published and nobody's sure who owns the IP?

And IP law in the U.S. is a complete pile of shit, too. That doesn't help.

But yeah. Piracy goes on.

Bold mine for emphasis.

You have Disney to thank for making it even worse.

We can thank celebrity culture to some extent as well, for giving us Sonny "the congressman from Disney" Bono.

Yeah, we have several politicians here that can hardly speak but were elected because they were in movies, football (soccer), etc.

Although considering the quality of 'professional' politicians, I'm not sure electing amateurs is that bad of an idea.

When the "amateurs" are just as corrupt and inept as the professionals at doing anything good but very competent at the bad stuff...

Imagine you and your group overthrow the king of the blackmarshes, at first people might cheer you, but then you and your buddies turn out to be just as bad...

True, but you wanna tell me having a professional who's spent thirty years on the government dole as a congresscritter is an improvement?

Anyways, we're getting off topic here

As someone who's got his own system nearly complete (last section of last chapter) I will not mourn the death of The Trove.

That said, I do see the concept of a site to maintain defunct systems no longer supported by any operating authority (company or individual) that would otherwise be unavailable as something useful for the gaming community as a whole.

It feels like there should be some ethical way to maintain only defunct titles (linked with some sprt of "claim this property" process that would remove the claimed material and replace it with a link to the IP holder), but the trick would be funding such a site.