Quote from: Cole;448936I'm speaking purely in terms of format.

So you find the Moldvay/Cook boxed sets to be better organized/easier to use than the Mentzer boxed sets as well, though that might just be familiarity talking, is that what you're saying (nevermind the RC book)?

Quote from: Benoist;448939So you find the Moldvay/Cook boxed sets to be better organized/easier to use than the Mentzer boxed sets as well, though that might just be familiarity talking, is that what you're saying (nevermind the RC book)?

Right.

I think the Mentzer set did a better job introducing the game concepts to beginners, though. But once you are familiar with D&D, the Moldvay format is more convenient, I think.

Quote from: Haffrung;448762True. So isn't it curious that none of the OSR variants start characters at level 8, encourage generous treasure hauls, have reams of detailed combat options, or set the goal of wiping out a pantheon from Deities and Demigods?

Except for the "reams of detailed combat options", just about any clone except S&W white box (which only goes to 10th level) can handle that easily (as did TSR D&D). Microlite75 certainly can as my Arn campaign world was one of the two worlds it was specifically designed to handle -- and Arn is a high power/high entropy world in the same way Arduin is. Back in the day, however, I did not start people off at 8th level in Arn -- just third.  

As for reams of detailed combat options, I suspect they were far less popular back in the day than starting at level 8, Monty Haul treasure, and wiping out a pantheon  or two from Deities and Demigods were.

Quote from: Cole;448942Right.

I think the Mentzer set did a better job introducing the game concepts to beginners, though. But once you are familiar with D&D, the Moldvay format is more convenient, I think.

OK. I wouldn't know. As I said, I've never used Moldvay-Cook in actual play.

Quote from: Aos;448892Furby was doing fine until the introduction of the fleshlight crowded its niche. So to speak.

I have no idea what this means.  For this, I'm grateful.  

If like the idea of 'E14' -- essentially, the Moldvay Basic rules and the Cook/Marsh Expert rules, taken together as a complete system.  

With a level 14 cap for fighters, clerics, magic-users, and thieves, the level caps for non-humans seem balanced.

And really, B/X D&D has pretty much everything one would need for a classic fantasy campaign.  Rules for running dominions, creating magic items, dungeon adventuring, wilderness adventuring, etc.

Quote from: Aos;448930I wish to own the Moldvay/Cook sets as fetish items and because I like the art in those sets a lot.

The art does rock!  

The classic Otus covers.  Otus, Dee, DSL, and Willingham interior art.  Morgan Ironwolf wearing tight chainmail in cold weather.  It's all win.

Oh yeah, Haffrung and the Pundit are completely clueless with respect to the OSR.  Don't take anything they have to say about it seriously.  (As should be obvious by now.)

I'd agree that you can run a great and fairly complete (albeit "short", by my own standards) campaign of D&D using just the Basic and Expert sets.   But in that sort of campaign, when your characters hit max level, its either time to stop, or to get the Companion set.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;449281I'd agree that you can run a great and fairly complete (albeit "short", by my own standards) campaign of D&D using just the Basic and Expert sets.   But in that sort of campaign, when your characters hit max level, its either time to stop, or to get the Companion set.

Why is that "time to stop," though? If the characters and setting are still interesting, why do the characters necessarily need to improve in personal fighting ability (or magic)? As long as the players are on board, where is there a problem? I am not interested in whether the idea is old school or new school.

Of course there is nothing wrong with the experience --> personal concrete power model that most RPGs follow.

Edit especially if you're going all the way through Expert; 14th level characters are really powerful compared to ordinary men and could take on a vast variety of challenges, enough for a long campaign. But I don't think the scope of adventures possible for even 3rd level characters is a well that would quickly run dry.

Quote from: RPGPundit;449281I'd agree that you can run a great and fairly complete (albeit "short", by my own standards) campaign of D&D using just the Basic and Expert sets.   But in that sort of campaign, when your characters hit max level, its either time to stop, or to get the Companion set.

I could run a campaign for 2-3 years of almost weekly play before I'd be likely to have players with characters anywhere near 14th level. In almost 18 months of play in my current Wilderlands M75 campaign, PCs range from 4th to 7th level -- and the one who at 7th -- a fighter, BTW -- has been played since the TPK near the beginning of the campaign.

In an Arn campaign, the PCs would hit higher levels much faster as Arn is a high power/high entropy world. The Hidden Valley and the Wilderlands are low power worlds.

Quote from: RPGPundit;449281I'd agree that you can run a great and fairly complete (albeit "short", by my own standards) campaign of D&D using just the Basic and Expert sets.

Let us take as granted for the moment your assumption that it's pointless to keep playing a character with no more levels to acquire. (That is not what I have actually seen in practice, even in full OD&D when Hobbits were capped at 4th.)

Let us take for granted your further assumption that "a campaign" is limited to the careers of a particular few characters, so that the retirement of arbitrary Characters W, X, Y and Z means the end of the campaign.

(This is quite at odds with the old usage. That, however, is probably not very relevant to the quote that follows -- even though some numbers of low-level characters died on the way to the emergence of those that rose to high level.)

Quote from: Gygax, Strategic Review #7BLACKMOOR is the only campaign with a life of five years, and GREYHAWK with a life of four is the second longest running campaign... To my certain knowledge no player in either BLACKMOOR or GREYHAWK has risen above 14th level.

Now, four or five years would be "short" by the expectations of that era (with a different concept of "a campaign"). I think, though, that it would be rather long relative to what (IIRC) is the WotC expectation: between a year and two from 1st to 20th or 30th for 3e or 4e respectively.

Quote from: ColeBut I don't think the scope of adventures possible for even 3rd level characters is a well that would quickly run dry.

There is absolutely no reason it should run out any more quickly than for 4th-, 16th-, or 64th-level characters.

It is not at all the case that any power is thereby arbitrarily excluded. To the contrary, it is notions of "level appropriateness" that bring in such limitations when there are more levels to which magic, fighting power, etc., can be tied as entitlements.

That notion really exemplifies how the "new school" can't see the forest for the trees.

When I run Basic D&D -- or for that matter when I run plain D&D -- the built in vagaries of chance (which are already huge) are just the start of the variations in power that are possible. What matters most is what a player dares and accomplishes.

Want to metamorphose? Raise the dead? Put an enemy in stasis? Leap seven leagues? Steal a magic gem from a sleeping god's crown? Smash the gates of a hell?

Gaining levels was never the only means to these ends! The game encompasses myriad worlds of the fantastic. All things are possible.

Quote from: Arneson & Gygax, 1974There should be no "natural laws" which are certain. Space could be passable because it is filled with breathable air. On the other hand the stars could be tiny lights only a few hundred miles away. Some areas of the land could be gates into other worlds, dimensions, times, or whatever. Mars is given in these rules, but some other fantastic world or setting could be equally as possible.

Quote from: Phillip;449309There is absolutely no reason it should run out any more quickly than for 4th-, 16th-, or 64th-level characters.

It is not at all the case that any power is thereby arbitrarily excluded. To the contrary, it is notions of "level appropriateness" that bring in such limitations when there are more levels to which magic, fighting power, etc., can be tied as entitlements.

That notion really exemplifies how the "new school" can't see the forest for the trees.

When I run Basic D&D -- or for that matter when I run plain D&D -- the built in vagaries of chance (which are already huge) are just the start of the variations in power that are possible. What matters most is what a player dares and accomplishes.

Want to metamorphose? Raise the dead? Put an enemy in stasis? Leap seven leagues? Steal a magic gem from a sleeping god's crown? Smash the gates of a hell?

Gaining levels was never the only means to these ends! The game encompasses myriad worlds of the fantastic. All things are possible.

This is bunch of shi-
No wait, I agree completely.
Well said.

Quote from: Haffrung;448762So isn't it curious that none of the OSR variants start characters at level 8, encourage generous treasure hauls, have reams of detailed combat options, or set the goal of wiping out a pantheon from Deities and Demigods?

Actually, I have been working on a gonzo fantasy RPG.  

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;448901I haven't read either Moldvay or Mentzer closely enough to see if one could think, on reading them, that level 3 is the end and that's just how it is until you see the expert box on store shelf.

The original Blue Book advertised AD&D inside and the Basic Red Book advertised the Expert Blue Book so readers would automatically know they only got an intro to something larger.

My RBO idea came after a writing seminar where we were given X, Y, Z bits that had to be woven into a story, much like those chef shows where you get A, B, C ingredients and have to make a meal.  I really enjoy the power found in manipulating limitations.

I already knew I could do more with more, but I wanted to see how much more I could do with less and the RBO experiments have been terrific fun.

Quote from: Spinachcat;449356Actually, I have been working on a gonzo fantasy RPG.  

Anything you can tell us about this project yet?

Quote from: Spinachcat;449356I already knew I could do more with more, but I wanted to see how much more I could do with less and the RBO experiments have been terrific fun.

That makes sense and I can get behind that. It seemed clear to me from post #! that this was the idea. Yet there we go again, into Pierre Menard, DM of the Rules Compendium territory.