I think that after The original series, deep space 9 was the best of the star trek shows, and one reason it worked so well was it had something no other trek series has had: a good recurring villain, namely Gul Dukat.

I think recurring villains, especially if they're as unpredictable and three dimensional as Gul Dukat, and evolve over time like Dukat did, are an excellent addition to any storyline, not just a game line.

The problem is that player characters tend to be a tad smarter than most tv show characters and are more likely to kill a recurring villain, especially one who has shown himself to be a real danger. So, does anyone have any tips on both using a good recurring villain in a rpg storyline and keeping him alive fairly, without cheating the players?

A clever villain will make it very difficult for players to be able to reach him to kill him off; and if they do reach him he'll create some kind of failsafes of consequences that would make them think twice about killing him.
Finally, any really good villain is allowed to come back from the dead, but only once. After that, it gets old. But once is allowed.

RPGPundit

The big thing to remember about keeping a recurring villain alive is:

DISTANCE

You let him get to close and the PC's will kill him.

That's why he has minions.

And the ability to combat the players tech/magic.

Combine that with a secret identity and it is even easier to have distance. They can't sneak into his house and kill him if they don't know who he really is. Because if they know who he is they will eventually try it.


 Then after he has caused the players endless hours of frustration, you let them get close and have nature take its course.



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Another technique is playing off metagaming bringing back previous-life type characters from other campaigns. But with some alterations. Sort of like "what if this person grew up under somewhat different circumstances". Taps into the player's emotional memories.

Another are family/clan members that share a common infuriating trait. Again, the same with variation.

I prefer to make my recurring villians members of society in good standing, who's foul murder would bring serious repercussions without significant proof of their villiany, thereby hog-tieing the puny heroes with their pathetic moral principals (and bringing serious legal consequences to those of somewhat less-than-moral character  ).

Ingratiate the recurring villain into the party first. they're less likely to kill a friend that took a wrong turn then they are some evil guy they've never met until now.

I have a thing about making up villains who aren't necessarily EEVILL but just at odds with the characters. It's especially fun to make them likeable, too, yet completely willing to savage the characters to accomplish an important goal.

Make evidence of their villainy less overt. This goes hand in hand with what kind of campaign you are running. In black and white games where there is good...or rather were good is supposed to destroy evil, than it's pretty difficult keeping a recuring villain alive.

But in games where villainy can hide beneath a veneer of respectablity - politics, religion, etc - then you can have a bastard who just keeps coming back.

Also legal reprercussions are important. The mundane process of gathering evidence, the vagaries of the judicial system etc are extremely condusive enviroments for a villain to prosper and perhaps even thrive.

Also as others have mentioned, the relationship between the pcs and the villain is an extremely important aspect in his/her recurring role status. Depending on the relationship - is the villain a member of the same organiztaion, does the villain have the same goals, is the villain related to someone close to the pcs or one of the pcs etc - a villain can go existing as long as the situation does not come to a big showdown.

Sustainable villains like Arvin Sloane, Ghul Dhukat, the sherrif in American Gothic etc are all examples IMHO of the kind of scum that could be used as templates for recurring villains in rpgs.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: blakkieAnother are family/clan members that share a common infuriating trait.

Some of the most common foes in Nobilis include "shards", fragments from a whole Excrucian which reflect it on a more human scale while the bulk of the being remains outside the material universe. Harming one of them doesn't damage the rest; and what one of them learns, they all know soon enough. Even if you manage to banish Coriander Hasp this time, he'll almost certainly be back later with a grudge.

Much the same goes for the avatars of Nyarlathotep in Call of Cthulhu, of course.

I deal with this issue in Buffy.  It's part of the genre convention to have a Big Bad, the season long recurring villian.  But as pointed out, player characters are not fictional.  Most notably they won't be content to just let the bad guy run off into the night, so you need some techniques that let this happen while at the same time not violating the character's soverignty.

- Don't know where the Big Bad is.  The Big Bad is secretive and isolated, and the means to defeating him lies primarily in finding out where and when they can get the jump on him.
- The Big Bad has some special protection.  If they can figure out how to bypass or cancel it they can beat him.
- The Big Bad is unassailable.  Sealed in his Fortress of Doom the PCs will have to figure out how to get in and get to the bad guy.
- Always have an escape plan.  You don't get to be a Big Bad by letting others get the jump on you or underestimating the opposition.  Always have a way out prepared ahead of time.

There's a weakness to these, especially the Secretive Location and Fortress of Doom.  If they spend all their time hidden away and secured they aren't exactly recurring, are they?  Cut scenes help, where you describe your villian plotting to destroy puppies and Christmas with his flunkies without giving away too much, but if facing them is to have any emotional impact they must meet the PCs from time to time.

And if the escape plan is foiled, then you'll just have to figure out a way to keep things going.  Maybe the Big Bad comes back as a wrathful spirit, more powerful than ever, or one of their flunkies was the real brains behind the operation, or whatever.

A great BBEG protection technique is put in the way what the character values in the way.  Going to jail for wacking the BBEG is a variation on this, specifically putting the character's freedom in the way.

Another example is last night we finally got our new Hong Kong set Shadowrun campaign going. What ties all the PCs together is a big hate on for Ares. Ares is a top-10 in the world sized corporation, relatively small presence in Hong Kong, and a goal to actively build that up.  So how am I going to protect the Ares guy in town that they'll be eventually butting heads with? One of the ways I'll be protecting him is to have one of the PCs' mother become his fiancee (the PC's father is dead, very likely killed by Ares).  The player has identified his mother's happiness and safety as a prime motivator.   Presto, Hamlet on Victoria Harbour.

Quote from: GrimGentSome of the most common foes in Nobilis include "shards", fragments from a whole Excrucian which reflect it on a more human scale while the bulk of the being remains outside the material universe. Harming one of them doesn't damage the rest; and what one of them learns, they all know soon enough. Even if you manage to banish Coriander Hasp this time, he'll almost certainly be back later with a grudge.

Much the same goes for the avatars of Nyarlathotep in Call of Cthulhu, of course.

Essentially yes, except Nyarlathotep isn't gay.

RPGPundit

When I make a villain, I generally try to avoid over the top, melodramatic "EEEVIL!"  My villains are just selfish.

It's not that he wants to corrupt all the kids in town pushing drugs to them, he just wants to be rich and has no scruples.

It's not that she wants to cause a divorce and break up a loving couple, she's just hot for sex from someone she wants to possess.

It's not that he really has a desire to see all of those younglings dead or bears them any personal malice, it's just that he wants the power he'll gain from torturing them and devouring their lifeforce as they die in agony.  

...er...  

Okay, that last one might be "EEEEVIL!"...  

When I create a villain, especially something kind of minoresque, I think "Selfish" not "Evil."

Quote from: RPGPunditEssentially yes, except Nyarlathotep isn't gay.

Eh, do you really want to inquire into the sexual preferences of the Crawling Chaos...? Because I'm pretty sure that tentacles would be involved.

Quote from: RPGPunditEssentially yes, except Nyarlathotep isn't gay.

Actually he is usually, or do you mean that homosexual?  Because the Old Ones seem to be fairly gender neutral, although I'm not that well versed in the mythos.

Nyarlathotep is the the negro manservant to the Elders Gods, right?