Greetings!
Recruiting Armies and Special Followers!
In my Thandor campaign, I use specialized Henchman and Follower Tables, and also Army Recruiting Tables, all keyed and tailored for each Character Class, as appropriate. I like being inspired by the Gygax rules from AD&D, so that is always a strong starting point for me.
I have tables set up where various Characters can become involved with tribal and clan leadership, and eventually become the Chieftains or Khans of their own tribe, if they are in such an appropriate environment.
Likewise, for Characters in a Civilized environment, they are able to recruit large and powerful armies, drawn from civilized communities.
Being able to engage in large-scale battles and wars is so much fun, and it serves as an additional tool and aspect of adventures, and also strong campaign elements.
How do you handle Player Characters recruiting armies in your campaigns? I also think it is very important--and realistic--for various NPC's to also recruit fierce armies of warriors. Such NPC's, of course, can be enemies to the Player Characters, or friends and allies. Getting into such elements certainly brings into focus the needs for politics, seduction, being charming, and a whole host of social skills, as well as academic skills, such as languages, culture lore, translators, history, ancient history, religion, folklore, and more. Court Intrigue, singing, dancing, all that stuff really begins to shine. In campaigns largely focused on crawling through sewers and dungeons, many of these skills and abilities can often be seen as useless and irrelevant. In political and military campaigns--or such elements of any campaign, really--these considerations quickly become very important and meaningful.
What do you think, my friends?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I don't generally do big armies and wars in my games. I tend to prefer things relatively status quo, possibly with rumors of struggles in faraway lands beyond the horizon. The only time I really did the whole armies thing, my players were involved in questing in the vicinity to influence the outcome. The result of the war depended on how well they performed. I had considered using JG's City-State Warfare or 1e Battlesystem to play out different aspects, but as I recall I didn't get much in the way of enthusiasm from my players for that.
How do I handle it?
They're allowed to recruit anyone they can find.
Of course in the setting, the entire non-monster population of the region is under 50,000, so the potential recruiting pool is barely 500 (1% of the population) and once you subtract those already sworn to serve others (ex. 150 of those serve in the Guard of the lone city in the region, each of the larger towns also has 8-12 as guards) there's a pool of maybe 50 people both qualified and potentially free to serve... but in practice there might be a dozen actually available when you go looking at any given time.
Keep your troops alive and you might eventually scoop up nearly all 50 of those men. In practice though, about a dozen men (roughly 2-3 per PC party member) is about all you can regularly rely on having... so best equip and train them well to keep them alive and keep them happy lest they seek a better offer.
Conversely, the PC's dozen men is roughly equal to a typical town's guard (though there's probably a few score of men able to be mildly threatening if the town is under threat (basically conscripts/levies). Add in 4-6 PCs and you're going to be making most places nervous when you come strolling through because the PC's party is basically a force 50% bigger than their actual town's police force.
Warhammer first edition had the Redwake River Valley adventure in which the player characters have to go around to various settlements recruiting warriors to fight the growing orc and goblin threat.
I've always liked MERP's recruiting table, with the Sheer Folly column being "come adventure with us."
The Mercenary book for Classic Traveller covered recruiting
I've written recruiting rules for a couple of my games.
I tend to use Gygax 1e AD&D DMG & MM. So the Orc tribe can muster 30-300 warriors, the goblins 40-400, and so on. There's a PC realm in my Faerun Damara campaign, it can muster 210 militia (a bit under 10% of the population) for feudal service, plus the 120 men at arms, veterans of the Vaasan war, who came to serve when the PC Lord Norrin reache d Fighter-9. The militia comprise 150 levy spear, 50 militia archers from Forestedge, and the 10 D'Ashe Festhall Guard (spear, also from Forestedge). The men at arms are 100 halberdier and 20 light cavalry from the DMG d% table, with a lieutenant (Fighter-4) and a captain (5e Veteran). They're about to be attacked by Goblin Town/Stoneheart Vale in reprisal for recent incursions, which on my rolls mustered some 950 pig orcs, goblins, and mountain orcs, with 20 elite orog worg riders and a few ettins as Chief Vigguz's bodyguard.
It's unfortunate that PC Lord Norrin has just pissed off the Duchy of Carmathan, previously his best friend & ally, by raising an old border dispute, threatening the silver trade, refusing to kill some vampires for them, and generally being obnoxious at the worst possible time. He went off ranting to his wife about how they'd never done anything for him, he wasn't going to help anyone anymore, etc. Ironic timing.
In terms of the mechanics of recruitment, the inhabitants of a feudal domain typically have an obligation to provide 40 days feudal service per year, which includes training time. The feudal lord can typically raise a levy of around 10% of the population - those men 'in prime condition & suitable for man at arms status'. If they're free yeomen they're typically expected to provide semi-decent equipment at their own cost. Or peasantry can support a small number of elite knights, it typically takes 100 villagers to support 1 heavy cavalry knight and a lance of support elements - a squire/light cavalryman and 2-3 men at arms perhaps. In heavily populated areas it's usually more effective to have heavily taxed peasants supporting heavy cavalry knights, while in sparse border regions free yeomen give you a decent sized force. Ten yeomen will beat 1 knight, but a squadron of knights will usually smash through a unit of yeomen. And yeomen can provide specialised units from the local area such as mountain troops, foresters and bowmen.
If you have a lot of money you may be able to hire mercenaries as formed units, you negotiate with their captain and can expect to pay a lot for combat operations, but in return get a formed up and well equipped unit. Of course they are loyal to their captain, not you.
Costs for Norrin's Military: 100 halberdier (x6=600gp/month), 20 light cavalry (x12=240 gp/m), 1 Lieutenant (80gp/m), 1 Captain (120gp/m) = -1040gp/m. Hiring equivalent formed mercenary units for a war could be 5 times as expensive.
I like the idea, but my players barely remember they have hirelings, I don't think they'll ever recruit armies.
I'd really like to run a campaign with lots and lots of PCs, armies and factions, but I seems I'm stuck in modern-D&D-land, where PCs get stronger and stronger until they can face dragons by themselves.
Sigh.
(OTOH, there are armies coming for the cities in my current sandbox, and when they attack I'll run them straight, by te book. If the high-level PCs decide to fight armies, they will probably die.).
Quote from: S'mon on May 17, 2023, 02:23:27 AM
I tend to use Gygax 1e AD&D DMG & MM. So the Orc tribe can muster 30-300 warriors, the goblins 40-400, and so on. There's a PC realm in my Faerun Damara campaign, it can muster 210 militia (a bit under 10% of the population) for feudal service, plus the 120 men at arms, veterans of the Vaasan war, who came to serve when the PC Lord Norrin reache d Fighter-9. The militia comprise 150 levy spear, 50 militia archers from Forestedge, and the 10 D'Ashe Festhall Guard (spear, also from Forestedge). The men at arms are 100 halberdier and 20 light cavalry from the DMG d% table, with a lieutenant (Fighter-4) and a captain (5e Veteran). They're about to be attacked by Goblin Town/Stoneheart Vale in reprisal for recent incursions, which on my rolls mustered some 950 pig orcs, goblins, and mountain orcs, with 20 elite orog worg riders and a few ettins as Chief Vigguz's bodyguard.
It's unfortunate that PC Lord Norrin has just pissed off the Duchy of Carmathan, previously his best friend & ally, by raising an old border dispute, threatening the silver trade, refusing to kill some vampires for them, and generally being obnoxious at the worst possible time. He went off ranting to his wife about how they'd never done anything for him, he wasn't going to help anyone anymore, etc. Ironic timing.
In terms of the mechanics of recruitment, the inhabitants of a feudal domain typically have an obligation to provide 40 days feudal service per year, which includes training time. The feudal lord can typically raise a levy of around 10% of the population - those men 'in prime condition & suitable for man at arms status'. If they're free yeomen they're typically expected to provide semi-decent equipment at their own cost. Or peasantry can support a small number of elite knights, it typically takes 100 villagers to support 1 heavy cavalry knight and a lance of support elements - a squire/light cavalryman and 2-3 men at arms perhaps. In heavily populated areas it's usually more effective to have heavily taxed peasants supporting heavy cavalry knights, while in sparse border regions free yeomen give you a decent sized force. Ten yeomen will beat 1 knight, but a squadron of knights will usually smash through a unit of yeomen. And yeomen can provide specialised units from the local area such as mountain troops, foresters and bowmen.
If you have a lot of money you may be able to hire mercenaries as formed units, you negotiate with their captain and can expect to pay a lot for combat operations, but in return get a formed up and well equipped unit. Of course they are loyal to their captain, not you.
Costs for Norrin's Military: 100 halberdier (x6=600gp/month), 20 light cavalry (x12=240 gp/m), 1 Lieutenant (80gp/m), 1 Captain (120gp/m) = -1040gp/m. Hiring equivalent formed mercenary units for a war could be 5 times as expensive.
Greetings!
Glorious, S'mon!
I love it all!
What the hell did Lord Norrin do with his best friend? That feud seems like such a tragedy!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 05:27:06 PM
What the hell did Lord Norrin do with his best friend? That feud seems like such a tragedy!
I'll pm you, it was done online text chat.
Quote from: S'mon on May 17, 2023, 05:58:04 PM
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 05:27:06 PM
What the hell did Lord Norrin do with his best friend? That feud seems like such a tragedy!
I'll pm you, it was done online text chat.
Greetings!
Ok, my friend! Sounds good.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 17, 2023, 12:59:22 PM
I like the idea, but my players barely remember they have hirelings, I don't think they'll ever recruit armies.
I'd really like to run a campaign with lots and lots of PCs, armies and factions, but I seems I'm stuck in modern-D&D-land, where PCs get stronger and stronger until they can face dragons by themselves.
Sigh.
(OTOH, there are armies coming for the cities in my current sandbox, and when they attack I'll run them straight, by te book. If the high-level PCs decide to fight armies, they will probably die.).
Greetings!
"Modern D&D Land!" *Laughing*
Damn, Eric. You need to change that, my friend!
Rule with an IRON HAND! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:28:56 AM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 17, 2023, 12:59:22 PM
I like the idea, but my players barely remember they have hirelings, I don't think they'll ever recruit armies.
I'd really like to run a campaign with lots and lots of PCs, armies and factions, but I seems I'm stuck in modern-D&D-land, where PCs get stronger and stronger until they can face dragons by themselves.
Sigh.
(OTOH, there are armies coming for the cities in my current sandbox, and when they attack I'll run them straight, by te book. If the high-level PCs decide to fight armies, they will probably die.).
Greetings!
"Modern D&D Land!" *Laughing*
Damn, Eric. You need to change that, my friend!
Rule with an IRON HAND! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hahahha yes, let's see how they deal with actual armies of enemies without allies of their own!
Greetings!
Eric, I highly recommend getting into developing armies and domains. It brings a whole new element to the game, with many different facets and dynamics, all going on at the same time. Even if Players are apprehensive, gently push them into it. They don't know what they are missing out on!
AND, an added dynamic, is by embracing such, you then really get to grapple with adventure scenarios and problems that a simple FIREBALL cannot solve. There are politics involved, economics, resources, armies, problems involving entire populations or sub cultures, or communities. Then add in a truckload of superstitions, cultural customs, class systems and status, and don't forget RELIGION.
It is such fun, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2023, 02:59:26 AM
AND, an added dynamic, is by embracing such, you then really get to grapple with adventure scenarios and problems that a simple FIREBALL cannot solve.
A few fireballs can solve smaller army-related problems pretty well. ;D
BTW I've been working on a tactical mass battle system for D&D, inspired by Eric Diaz - http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/05/diaz-freeform-mass-combat-system.html
I think it depends heavily on your world. If you're in a world with wandering monsters as a thing, then armies are going to be really hard to maintain; invading a territory means that you need to maintain a supply line through hostile territory and no actual ability to meaningfully clear it, and the homefield advantage of your enemy knowing, e.g., that the Bloodfang Pack remains in their caves for the third full moon of the year but emerges instead at the half-moon to honor their witch-goddess, and you don't. And it's going to be very hard for you to maintain a large surplus population to have a large army, because wandering monsters can infest your farmer's fields and pick them off when they go to transport their harvest. Accordingly, the most common armies will be pillaging hordes, keeping themselves going purely by looting and without any real goals to take and hold territory.
Modern D&D is bad in a lot of ways, because it's unreasonable to expect the conditions of modern ultra-liberal Seattle to exist as the ground state of the universe, but it's also unreasonable to try to export the historic context of medieval Europe to a wildly different world. Like, the presence of ghouls as a thing alone would necessitate a wildly different set of tactics and assumptions. Historically, disease could cripple an army, but ghoul fever doesn't just kill you, it raises you as a ghoul which can spread ghoul fever yourself. And there will be ghouls tracking armies and battlefields, and so ghoul fever will have many opportunities to creep into the camp and supply lines, and that's not assuming some asshole who hates both you and the area you're invading doesn't pay some adventurers to infiltrate your camp and poison your water supplies to both massacre your army and blight their rival's territory. And if you don't have magic of your own, if it's relatively simple for a wizard to magically disguise themselves as a scout, murder one of your scouts, take their place, go into your army, poison the water, and then turn invisible and leave, how do you counter that?
There is enough weird stuff in D&D, I feel, that the general marginal value of a common soldier is low in the best of circumstances, and can well end up negative; my default assumption is that D&D armies are small but elite, and limited by the size of their magical logistics (support from one church or another for magical healing and the like, or money paid to mercenary mages, or darker pacts with darker beings who are happy to sponsor Conquest, Famine, Pestilence, and Death), which means they end up acting more like adventuring parties than traditional armies.
Quote from: robertliguori on May 19, 2023, 09:10:43 AM
And if you don't have magic of your own, if it's relatively simple for a wizard to magically disguise themselves as a scout, murder one of your scouts, take their place, go into your army, poison the water, and then turn invisible and leave, how do you counter that?
Don't drink water. Drink (bottled) wine and beer.
Honestly, it was always easy to enter an army camp. You didn't need to murder anyone. Uniforms weren't a thing.
Quote from: robertliguori on May 19, 2023, 09:10:43 AM
There is enough weird stuff in D&D, I feel, that the general marginal value of a common soldier is low in the best of circumstances, and can well end up negative; my default assumption is that D&D armies are small but elite
This was true IRL too. Knights were the adventurers of their day; mail/plate & warhorse the magic items.
Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 06:46:17 AM
Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2023, 02:59:26 AM
AND, an added dynamic, is by embracing such, you then really get to grapple with adventure scenarios and problems that a simple FIREBALL cannot solve.
A few fireballs can solve smaller army-related problems pretty well. ;D
BTW I've been working on a tactical mass battle system for D&D, inspired by Eric Diaz - http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/05/diaz-freeform-mass-combat-system.html
Greetings!
That is looking like a pretty nifty mass combat system, my friend! I think I like it!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I have coincidentally spent perhaps three weeks now working on a draft for army recruitment and mass combat. I initially started from first principles, researching how classical and medieval armies were commanded and controlled, but I've been drawing from Commands & Colors as well as One Page Rules for the actual combat system. Although the actual battle rules only occupy around 6 pages, the whole chapter's become a 32-page monstrosity that's taken up a good sixth of my book's total size, which is a bit amusing for something that was at first only meant to be a relatively light diversion. It's a heavy topic! You need a lot of space to do it justice.
It really helps if you don't have PCs capable of becoming gods (which also helps tremendously with keeping the campaign setting coherent). My home system and setting assumptions cap out at a relatively low power and upper levels don't give much of a benefit, so no single PC will likely ever take on an army by themselves.
Greetings!
I'm always reminded of the fact that when the Emperor Qin--the first Emperor of the Chinese Empire--sat upon his great Dragon Throne, confident in the Mandate of Heaven, the Emperor Qin commanded a professional army of 1,000,000 soldiers. These soldiers were all armoured in iron mail, shield, helmets, keen iron swords; the halberd; war-axe; spears and javelins; crossbows and longbows. They had all served in the campaigns to crush many other mighty kingdoms, and had been fighting for 20 years and more. By the Emperor's orders, an entire industry of armies of craftsman had been established to create and supply his armies with all the sinews of war, day and night. There were strict quality standards established on the mass production of every kind of armour, weapon, and supplies of war.
The Emperor Qin commanded armies also of labourers and craftsmen alike. Over 1 million Chinese labourers worked to build the Great Wall of China. Almost overnight, the Emperor organized hundreds of thousands of *additional* labourers to form up into caravans, bringing food supplies and water to the massive labour force constructing the Great Wall. Working in relays and toiling for 16, 18 hours a day, for several *years* to keep the construction crews safe and well-supplied. The Emperor Qin had the Great Canal built, entirely transforming interior river-borne travel and trade for the empire, forever. Vast Imperial Libraries were established, with hundreds of thousands of books written, and gathered from scholars allover the empire. Then, mass copies were made and distributed to smaller libraries. Entire MOUNTAINS were dug into, moved, and levelled. Gone. By the Emperor's will. Whole rivers had their courses changed, again, by the will of the Emperor. In just a few years, entire cities and mighty fortress-citadels were raised up--again, merely by the command of the Emperor. All of this occurred in the first century A.D.; long before the "Middle Ages" of Europe. The Emperor Qin had entire armies of light horsemen and heavily-armoured horsemen, using swords, axes, lances, and shields--again, long before Europe.
Similarly, the Emperor Chandragupta, of the Gupta Empire in 400 A.D., commanded a vast army of some 400,000 profeessional troops; 30,000 armoured horsemen; 3,000 armoured War Elephants. All of these troops likewise were armoured with fine mail and shield, great 7-foot longbows for the archers; and spear, javelin, swod, axe,mace,and Halberd for the rest. All were vigorouslytrained, and finely-equipped in every supply of war. The mighty Gupta Empire repelled and crushed mighty Hun invasions from the north, while simultaneously fighting and conquering powerful Indian kingdoms across central and southern India.
Genghis Khan and his descendents marched an army of 200,000 Mongolian warrior into Peria, annihilating the entire Middle East. That was merely *one* of many Mongolian armies. At the same time, vast Mongolian armies were matching through China, and conquering the Jin Empire, and then, the Song Empire, province by province. All the while yet *another* huge Mongol army of over 100,000 troops were conquering Ukraine and invading Europe. Poland, Hungary, the Balkan states, all of them were on their knees before the Mongol conquerors. In Turkey and the Anatolian region, the feared Seljuk Empire? The Mongol armies ravaged and destroyed in swiftly, and reduced what was left to being vssal states, groveling and begging on their knees. All of this going on, virtually at the same time. The Mongols crushed and annihilted the Tangut Empire; the Jin Empire; the Song Empire; the Kwarazam Empire; the Abassaid Caliphate; the Sejuk Empire; the Kievan Rus; The Empire of the Volga Bulgars; the Kingdom of Poland; the Kingdom of Hungary; the Kingdom of Bulgaria; and many other states and kingdoms.
I think it is beneficial and meaningful to look at what was going on--and what was kingdoms and empires were truly capable of--long before the later Dark Ages of Western Europe, or just staying stuck on some hamlet-sized fiefdom in England, France, or Germany. Beyond such a limited scope of the geography of Western Europe, and the narrow view of a limited Medieval time frame, both concurrently, and centuries beofrehand, there was far more going on in other pats of the world.
It is kind of sobering to consider that the Emperor Qin, for example, had already lived through--and annihilated the Chinese "Medieval Era" before his victories to unify the realm of the seven kingdoms, and establish the Qin Empire. Landed, country-estate holding, hereditary nobles had been changed entirely, and put in their place. They would bow to a new system--the Empire. This, again, was all systemically accomplished within a similar context to the Western European Medieval Era, 1200 years beforehand.
I tend to think that such vast authority, such vast wealth, such vast organization, and also the vast armies of common, ordinary soldiers which made all of these migty empires possible--serves as a kind of magic all their own.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK