Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 02, 2023, 12:42:20 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 01, 2023, 10:31:10 PM
I've always had dwarves avoiding ships because they're too dense to swim.

That would be true of mountain dwarves lifting rocks in the squat mine tunnels all day, sea dwarves I'd think as skinnier, maybe slightly taller on average to other dwarves. Both should be able to hold their breath for longer too, given toxic gasses or deep diving, not sure about forest dwarves though, unless taller trees means real high elevations.

I just recalled that in one setting I did it differently.  Dwarves sailed the seas in vast ships made of living stone.  This was stolen from the Thomas Covenant books of course.  This world was Jupiter sized too, so extremely stable ships made a great deal of sense when traversing the enormous oceans with their equally enormous storms.  I thought that was neat, but it didn't ever get into a game session.

I also recall that back in the age of pirates most sailors couldn't swim.  They figured that if their ship sank then being able to would only prolong the dying process.

This jogged my memory that in the Shannara books for all their blatant ripping off Tolkien, the gnomes are the twisted little evil guys.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 03, 2023, 11:54:08 AM
I also recall that back in the age of pirates most sailors couldn't swim.  They figured that if their ship sank then being able to would only prolong the dying process.

Few men face certain death so bravely.

My gnomes are basically "The Lost Boys" from Peter Pan. They are "born" out of forest mists fully clothed and ready for adventure, if "killed", they disolve into mist only to reborn without memories of their past life the following night, ready for new adventures.

You see, gnomes in my setting are immortal spirits that embody the dreams of children and made manifest by the world's magical nature. Their innate abilities are rather dreamlike; they can wield objects as if they were a grown man, can find random useful items in their pockets as if they'd been there all along, and slip from sight if something too scary is about to happen.

They don't have a mortal conception of death and are typically horrified to learn that others have just one life to live, but because they are also inherently brave and adventurous this usually leads to the resolve to protect their "fragile" friends. After all, the only thing they have to risk are their memories and they can always make more of those.

Oh, and I don't have Halflings in my setting... I do have pygmy peoples, but mechanically those are just humans on the extreme small end of the range (ie. males average less than 4' 11" in height with some as short as 4'). This is largely because Halflings in most settings are just short humans with perhaps some cultural proclivities towards certain weapons or tasks and the human racial trait of adaptability in the setting could grant all the Halfling-ish traits to a group of humans pretty easily.

Gnomes should only be embraced by hands around their necks.

Yeah, I get that there is some Olde World charm about them but the fantasy that I draw from is not that inspired by the Olde World. I didn't grow up on fairy tales as much as I grew up on the Tolkien and Lloyd Alexander and some Conan and Niven books.  Those authors that inspired may have been inspired by Olde World fairy tales, but the stories that inspired me are two or more generations removed from them. Let the gnomes die  already.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 04, 2023, 08:07:26 AM
Gnomes should only be embraced by hands around their necks.

Yeah, I get that there is some Olde World charm about them but the fantasy that I draw from is not that inspired by the Olde World. I didn't grow up on fairy tales as much as I grew up on the Tolkien and Lloyd Alexander and some Conan and Niven books.  Those authors that inspired may have been inspired by Olde World fairy tales, but the stories that inspired me are two or more generations removed from them. Let the gnomes die  already.

Gnomes at least have more mythological/folklore elements to build from to make them unique to a particular setting than the Hobbit expies who are invariably either played like short rural humans (in which case just play a short rural human) or as ::SHUDDER:: Kender.

I have grown extremely apathetic towards Tolkein-alike settings (I was going to say 'hate' but that implies enough feelings to care one way or another whether those settings live or die)... largely because they ape only the surface details without understanding their purpose or, worse, are third-hand derivatives that give no thought to why halflings (or elves or dwarves or goblins or orcs or color-coded dragons for that matter) exist in their worlds beyond "other settings have them."

The very fact that "Standard Fantasy Setting" https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFantasySetting even exists as a trope stings my soul a bit.

This isn't aimed at GMs so much as game designers... but for the love of God can you stop making Tolkein-expy setting #543 and may create something original? Maybe? At least think about what about your non-humans makes them not just a Tolkien clone.

Gnomes at least stand better than even odds of being something different owing to their not actually appearing in Tolkien... which is why I definitely prefer them to Halflings.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 04, 2023, 08:07:26 AM
Gnomes should only be embraced by hands around their necks.

Yeah, I get that there is some Olde World charm about them but the fantasy that I draw from is not that inspired by the Olde World. I didn't grow up on fairy tales as much as I grew up on the Tolkien and Lloyd Alexander and some Conan and Niven books.  Those authors that inspired may have been inspired by Olde World fairy tales, but the stories that inspired me are two or more generations removed from them. Let the gnomes die  already.

If the githyanki and the githzerai were the same race all along, I guess that would be a fair take.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2023, 07:50:44 AM
My gnomes are basically "The Lost Boys" from Peter Pan. They are "born" out of forest mists fully clothed and ready for adventure, if "killed", they disolve into mist only to reborn without memories of their past life the following night, ready for new adventures.

You see, gnomes in my setting are immortal spirits that embody the dreams of children and made manifest by the world's magical nature. Their innate abilities are rather dreamlike; they can wield objects as if they were a grown man, can find random useful items in their pockets as if they'd been there all along, and slip from sight if something too scary is about to happen.

They don't have a mortal conception of death and are typically horrified to learn that others have just one life to live, but because they are also inherently brave and adventurous this usually leads to the resolve to protect their "fragile" friends. After all, the only thing they have to risk are their memories and they can always make more of those.

Oh, and I don't have Halflings in my setting... I do have pygmy peoples, but mechanically those are just humans on the extreme small end of the range (ie. males average less than 4' 11" in height with some as short as 4'). This is largely because Halflings in most settings are just short humans with perhaps some cultural proclivities towards certain weapons or tasks and the human racial trait of adaptability in the setting could grant all the Halfling-ish traits to a group of humans pretty easily.

Ah yes the pygmies! Stange lot they are.

Coincidentally, I'm writing a small book on demi-humans and I am having a hard time with gnomes. They seem to be just smaller dwarves. I'm adding deep gnomes (that are smaller deep dwarves) and forest gnomes (that are basically smaller wood elves, or, in old school terms, Halflings - but at least they are the color of trees, which is different). What makes them unique? Even rumors are hard to find.

Here is what I've got on elves and dwarves, for example:

Rumors
• Elves do not have souls.
• Elves live for centuries.
• Elves do not die due to natural causes.
• Elves are harmed by iron.
• Elves love beauty more than life.
• Elves do not know shame or remorse.
• Elves are arrogant and self-righteous.
• Elves do not sleep and do not dream, they only meditate for six hours a day.
• Elves hide their children because they are so rare.
• Elves steal human children because they cannot have their own.
• All elves are mages.
• High elves despise non-elves.
• Wood elves talk to trees.
• The trees can hear them.
• Wood elves have greenish hair or skin.
• Drow have purple, obsidian or grey skin.
• Drow hate all other humanoids, especially high elves.

Rumors
• All dwarves have beards, including females.
• All dwarves live in big underground cities.
• Dwarves are made from earth.
• Dwarves turn to stone as they get old.
• Dwarves are born from the ground like worms. Their caves are dug from the inside.
• Dwarves cannot understand irony.
• Dwarves dislike spells, but love magical items. Crafting is the only type of magic dwarves respect.
• A hill or mountain dwarf with a short beard is usually a condemned criminal.
• Deep dwarves are unused to surface humanoids and will treat them as curiosities and celebrities.
• Deep dwarves hate other humanoids (including dwarves) and will occasionally eat them.
• Deep dwarves can become invisible.
• ...


I am saying they like engines, mechanical stuff, giving them a bonus to find traps, but other than that, I can't really see what makes them special among dwarves and Halflings.

And AD&D gnomes are just like dwarves and Halflings mechanically too. They have similar powers.

(TBH, I would just ditch Halflings if I could, but I want to be "faithful" to old school D&D).

Greetings!

Well, for me, several elements from "Olde World" mythology have inspired me. (Nice, Jeff!).

The Gnomes are presented as being distinctly mystical, and Pagan. They are generally reclusive, and tend to live in woodsy cabin-like houses, or quasi-subterranean dug-out style dwellings.

Morally and socially, the various tribes of gnomes strongly favour associating with Elves, Faeries, animals of the woodlands, as well as various benign nature-oriented spirit creatures--the elements, benevolent Rusalka, and similar.

Despite some points of obvious or potential conflict with Humans, the Gnomes tend towards having a positive relationship with Human communities. the Gnomes for whatever reasons feel protective towards Humans, and often seek to trade with Humans and likewise to befriend nearby Humans.

The Gnomes are steadfast in their love of nature and animals, and the Pagan gods. the Gnomes resolutely oppose evil races and creatures, and do not hesitate to attack them and make war upon them.

Gnomes are hard workers and diligent. they love magic, mysticism, as well as craftsmanship and creating high quality tools, goods, and toys. The Gnomes also prefer to dress in bright, happy colours when at home. Gnomes also are fond of food, cooking, and different drinks.

Apparently, Gnome tribes tend to be led by Chieftains, and or some kind of tribal council. Occasionally, Gnome tribes may have a Gnome King as a ruler.

That is what I have gleaned from much of the mythology. Definitely some thematic overlaps with Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. Still though, just on a brief survey of the mythological roots, I think Gnomes definitely have a different feel to them than what is presented in the Player's Handbook. I have enjoyed placing Gnomes in my own campaigns, and they somehow seem culturally more flexible than Halflings. Halflings so often get eye-rolls from Players, whereas Gnomes for some reason tend to evoke more respect, interest, and curiosity. Interesting stuff though!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2023, 11:36:20 AM
This isn't aimed at GMs so much as game designers... but for the love of God can you stop making Tolkein-expy setting #543 and may create something original? Maybe? At least think about what about your non-humans makes them not just a Tolkien clone.

Generally because something is original doesn't mean it is any good, you know. So game designers try to clone the big boys (in Fantasy, Tolkien and Howard; in Sci-Fi, Star Trek and maybe Star Wars) so they don't have Spawn of Fashan on their hands.

PS: If you wanted to imitate Tolkien, then gnomes would be a subtype of Elf (the Noldor were originally known as "Gnomes" in Pre-1950s Legendarium)...

Quote from: Wtrmute on March 04, 2023, 10:06:45 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2023, 11:36:20 AM
This isn't aimed at GMs so much as game designers... but for the love of God can you stop making Tolkein-expy setting #543 and may create something original? Maybe? At least think about what about your non-humans makes them not just a Tolkien clone.

Generally because something is original doesn't mean it is any good, you know. So game designers try to clone the big boys (in Fantasy, Tolkien and Howard; in Sci-Fi, Star Trek and maybe Star Wars) so they don't have Spawn of Fashan on their hands.

PS: If you wanted to imitate Tolkien, then gnomes would be a subtype of Elf (the Noldor were originally known as "Gnomes" in Pre-1950s Legendarium)...

If something is original, maybe it's good maybe it's not.  One more Tolkein clone, however, is guaranteed to bore me.  I'll try the original every time at this point;.

Quote from: SHARK on March 04, 2023, 08:35:56 PM
Greetings!

Well, for me, several elements from "Olde World" mythology have inspired me. (Nice, Jeff!).

The Gnomes are presented as being distinctly mystical, and Pagan. They are generally reclusive, and tend to live in woodsy cabin-like houses, or quasi-subterranean dug-out style dwellings.

Morally and socially, the various tribes of gnomes strongly favour associating with Elves, Faeries, animals of the woodlands, as well as various benign nature-oriented spirit creatures--the elements, benevolent Rusalka, and similar.

Despite some points of obvious or potential conflict with Humans, the Gnomes tend towards having a positive relationship with Human communities. the Gnomes for whatever reasons feel protective towards Humans, and often seek to trade with Humans and likewise to befriend nearby Humans.

The Gnomes are steadfast in their love of nature and animals, and the Pagan gods. the Gnomes resolutely oppose evil races and creatures, and do not hesitate to attack them and make war upon them.

Gnomes are hard workers and diligent. they love magic, mysticism, as well as craftsmanship and creating high quality tools, goods, and toys. The Gnomes also prefer to dress in bright, happy colours when at home. Gnomes also are fond of food, cooking, and different drinks.

Apparently, Gnome tribes tend to be led by Chieftains, and or some kind of tribal council. Occasionally, Gnome tribes may have a Gnome King as a ruler.

That is what I have gleaned from much of the mythology. Definitely some thematic overlaps with Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. Still though, just on a brief survey of the mythological roots, I think Gnomes definitely have a different feel to them than what is presented in the Player's Handbook. I have enjoyed placing Gnomes in my own campaigns, and they somehow seem culturally more flexible than Halflings. Halflings so often get eye-rolls from Players, whereas Gnomes for some reason tend to evoke more respect, interest, and curiosity. Interesting stuff though!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This is pretty close to how I envision gnomes. But like I mentioned in my other post, I never remember that they even exist in actual play, and no one's ever wanted to play one, so I tend to ignore them. But my head canon about how gnomes should be is pretty close to this.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 05, 2023, 03:13:30 AM

Quote from: Wtrmute on March 04, 2023, 10:06:45 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2023, 11:36:20 AM
This isn't aimed at GMs so much as game designers... but for the love of God can you stop making Tolkein-expy setting #543 and may create something original? Maybe? At least think about what about your non-humans makes them not just a Tolkien clone.

Generally because something is original doesn't mean it is any good, you know. So game designers try to clone the big boys (in Fantasy, Tolkien and Howard; in Sci-Fi, Star Trek and maybe Star Wars) so they don't have Spawn of Fashan on their hands.

PS: If you wanted to imitate Tolkien, then gnomes would be a subtype of Elf (the Noldor were originally known as "Gnomes" in Pre-1950s Legendarium)...

If something is original, maybe it's good maybe it's not.  One more Tolkein clone, however, is guaranteed to bore me.  I'll try the original every time at this point;.

Or at least do something original with the old standbys. My dwarves, for example, care so much about crafting/technology because they were shoddily assembled such that their limbs and organs wear out at vastly different rates, starting as early as just 20 years old, because their creators (the demons who ruled the world at that time) didn't expect them to live long enough in the hellish mines they were made to labor in for the organ failure to even be an issue.

But the dwarves basically invented (or perhaps rediscovered... the events were thousands of years ago and recorded only in myths and legends) arcane magic and artifice powered by it specifically to overthrow the demons and replace the parts of their bodies as they failed. And never one to just replace when they can improve, their artifice often grants them abilities superior to those of the limb or organ replaced.

This organ failure also led to a bit of an inversion of dwarven culture compared to the human stock from which they were created. Instead of waiting to become established before marrying and starting a family, organ failure could render a dwarf sterile at potentially any time and so dwarves marry and have families very young, 13-15 years of age, typically with the support of their parents and only after the family line is secured do they turn to other pursuits (once the children are of age, it is normal for dwarven couples to go months or even years without seeing one another as they pursue their interests and hone their crafts)

This means your typical adventuring dwarf PC is almost certainly already a grandparent (or nearly so) by the time their adventuring career begins, even if they're only in the mid-to-late twenties and so has little concern for further romantic pursuits and and so comes off as rather dour and work-focused to non-dwarves. They also tend to have at least one piece of artifice; a bronze arm, a crystaline eye or eyes, a literal cast iron stomach; and will acquire more as they age. The eldest dwarves are little more than brains supported in a body of arcane artifice and terrifying foes as they have minds with a lifetime of experience and a body superior to that of any creature of flesh and blood.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 05, 2023, 03:13:30 AM
If something is original, maybe it's good maybe it's not.  One more Tolkein clone, however, is guaranteed to bore me.  I'll try the original every time at this point;.

That's fine if you like it, but do recognise that "maybe it's good maybe it's not" does not mean it has a 50% chance of being good — it's more like a 5% chance. So if you are doing something to amuse yourself, you might as well gamble on that 19:1 odds, but if you're trying to make a living, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

In a sense, people generally don't like Gnomes exactly because they don't have an easy stereotype to point to: in some works they are magical forest creatures, in others they are steampunk comic relief, and yet in others they are evil masterminds. Elves and Dwarves, on the other hand, are pretty stable across works of fantasy, only varying in some details. And that stability of representation can cause people to bond with them as archetypes and be fond of them, in a way in which they cannot do with Gnomes (or Halflings, who are kind of a schizophrenic mix of good-natured English peasant and amoral kleptomaniac).