Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 10:55:19 AM
I'm a huge fan of forest gnomes. My forest gnomes are... well, if you've ever read Wil Huygen's "Gnomes", there's a fair bit of inspiration there.  ... 

I absolutely love Huygens' gnomes.  I'm sad that I never found a a good way to make such tiny characters work in a D&D party.  I think an RPG based on Hugens' various works would be amazing.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 08:36:31 PM

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 08:03:27 PM
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves

Hah.

I've actually done something sort of along these lines. Dwarves that don't dwell in and around the mountains, "surface" dwarves (although it's something of a misnomer... Even in the mountains and highlands, plenty of dwarves live or work on the surface) tend to build earth-sheltered, stone houses, and have a sort of amish-inspired culture. Insular, clannish, humble, tradition-bound, hard working.

What do you call your sea dwarves?

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 09:01:34 PM
What do you call your sea dwarves?

I don't really have much in the way of "sea" races, at least not fleshed out. Above the waves, it's just whoever happens to be sailing them. Below, I've never really fleshed out.

Less seriously: Drunken Shrimps

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 09:08:43 PM

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 09:01:34 PM
What do you call your sea dwarves?

Less seriously: Drunken Shrimps

AMAZING


Seriously:
Meant more like "beach dwarves" than a Waterworld thing, but "beach dwarves" just doesn't really sound badass at all

Unless you're running hipster elves already, I guess

I've always had dwarves avoiding ships because they're too dense to swim.

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 08:03:27 PM
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves

This is basically what The Dark Eye did with them.  There are no Halflings or Gnomes.  But there are Hill Dwarves that read just like Halflings and the Diamond Dwarves feel a little bit like Gnomes, though still pretty distinctly Dwarves.  Then there are Ore Dwarves and Forge Dwarves that are more Dwarvenly (yeah, made that word up).

They like themselves some Dwarves.  But my real guess is they don't like themselves some lawsuits and steered wide of anyone else's RP.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:48:28 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 01, 2023, 03:18:00 PM
Admittedly, mythology doesn't really have *Halfings* per se, so maybe the problem all along is using Halflings?

SHARK, I think you've hit on an important point.  Using both gnomes and halflings is a little like trying to use both coal-fired steam generators along with fusion reactors.  They are different concepts from different cultural milieus.  Gnomes weren't a taxonomically distinct creature in mythology; their nature and disposition varied as the story and the narrative need changed.  But, through our modern lenses, we feel compelled to define the "gnome" as a creature and species (especially if we want them to be playable character races), much like Tolkien described his halflings in the beginning of The Hobbit and the Prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring.  In a mythological context, gnomes could easily be halflings, depending on the story, etc.  So it makes it hard to delineate halflings from gnomes, as we're trying to draw a distinction between a clearly visualized fantasy race and an amorphous blob of mythological connotations...

Actually, I thought the same exact thing as I read through SHARK's point on this.  Well, not exactly as I'm not as versed on energy production.    But if I sit here and contemplate a world without Halflings I easily see where Gnomes would fit and possibly even better.  Blasphemy to some, I know, and I feel a little dirty contemplating it given my appreciation for Tolkien.  But I definitely agree Gnomes were there first and maybe we've/I've got the problem backwards.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 01, 2023, 10:31:10 PM
I've always had dwarves avoiding ships because they're too dense to swim.

That would be true of mountain dwarves lifting rocks in the squat mine tunnels all day, sea dwarves I'd think as skinnier, maybe slightly taller on average to other dwarves. Both should be able to hold their breath for longer too, given toxic gasses or deep diving, not sure about forest dwarves though, unless taller trees means real high elevations.

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on March 02, 2023, 12:31:48 PM

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 08:03:27 PM
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves

This is basically what The Dark Eye did with them.  There are no Halflings or Gnomes.  But there are Hill Dwarves that read just like Halflings and the Diamond Dwarves feel a little bit like Gnomes, though still pretty distinctly Dwarves.  Then there are Ore Dwarves and Forge Dwarves that are more Dwarvenly (yeah, made that word up).

They like themselves some Dwarves.  But my real guess is they don't like themselves some lawsuits and steered wide of anyone else's RP.

I'm going to explore that system a bit, looks cool.

Gnomes are small plastic, cement or other materials lawn ornaments.

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on March 02, 2023, 12:35:35 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:48:28 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 01, 2023, 03:18:00 PM
Admittedly, mythology doesn't really have *Halfings* per se, so maybe the problem all along is using Halflings?

SHARK, I think you've hit on an important point.  Using both gnomes and halflings is a little like trying to use both coal-fired steam generators along with fusion reactors.  They are different concepts from different cultural milieus.  Gnomes weren't a taxonomically distinct creature in mythology; their nature and disposition varied as the story and the narrative need changed.  But, through our modern lenses, we feel compelled to define the "gnome" as a creature and species (especially if we want them to be playable character races), much like Tolkien described his halflings in the beginning of The Hobbit and the Prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring.  In a mythological context, gnomes could easily be halflings, depending on the story, etc.  So it makes it hard to delineate halflings from gnomes, as we're trying to draw a distinction between a clearly visualized fantasy race and an amorphous blob of mythological connotations...

Actually, I thought the same exact thing as I read through SHARK's point on this.  Well, not exactly as I'm not as versed on energy production.    But if I sit here and contemplate a world without Halflings I easily see where Gnomes would fit and possibly even better.  Blasphemy to some, I know, and I feel a little dirty contemplating it given my appreciation for Tolkien.  But I definitely agree Gnomes were there first and maybe we've/I've got the problem backwards.

Back in ENWorld, on one of the Gygax Q&A threads, someone asked about the origin of Gnomes. He answered that they were based on folktales of spirits of mines (which is probably why the "standard" gnome is the Rock Gnome, not the Forest one). Just at that they seem different enough from Hobbits, who are basically somewhat romanticised English peasants. Gnomes are closer to Nockers or house-spirits, more industrious than the bucolic Hobbits (pre-Scouring, that is).

There was an old saw that England was a nation of shopkeepers, and I can easily see Hobbits fitting that stereotype, while Gnomes are closer to craftsmen and academics. Now, the dwarves also fulfill some of the craftsman tropes, but they are more focused on metalwork (maybe even steelwork) and stonework. Working with tin and copper, or God forbid, wood, isn't very Dwarf-like, and that's some of the slack the Gnomes can pick up.

I like this, Wtrmute.  Good angle.

One adventure that I like to run for new campaigns is one where the party stumbles upon the ruins of a gnomish settlement.  This underground complex is centuries, maybe even millenia old.  It has a domed structure with many side lassages leading off to apartments, workshops and mine tunnels.  There is usually an underground river that the gnomes have placed a water wheel in to power machinery with. 

Each time I run the scenario, it is a little different.  One time the gnomes were wiled out by a crazy illusionist who dabbled in demonology.  He ended up making a pact with juiblex and becoming part ooze.  Another time the gnomes caught a virulent plague.  There were undead plague zombies roaming throughout the place. 

The gnomes in my world are dispered.  They often live in human cities, and have little enclaves there where they like to lead quiet lives.  They are very interested in their culture and lost history and will pay top dollar...err...Gold piece for artifacts made by their ancestors, ancient gnomish writings, and the location of their ancestral homes.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 01, 2023, 08:53:42 PM

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 10:55:19 AM
I'm a huge fan of forest gnomes. My forest gnomes are... well, if you've ever read Wil Huygen's "Gnomes", there's a fair bit of inspiration there.  ... 

I absolutely love Huygens' gnomes.  I'm sad that I never found a a good way to make such tiny characters work in a D&D party.  I think an RPG based on Hugens' various works would be amazing.

They did have a board game based on Huygens' book.  It was simple -- for little kids -- but it had great artwork (of course) and I and my cousins had a great time playing it when we were little.   Anybody here who hasn't read Gnomes should really seek it out.  These gnomes are not like D & D gnomes though, so don't bring that expectation with you.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:11:33 AM
Each time I run the scenario, it is a little different.  One time the gnomes were wiled out by a crazy illusionist who dabbled in demonology.  He ended up making a pact with juiblex and becoming part ooze.  Another time the gnomes caught a virulent plague.  There were undead plague zombies roaming throughout the place. 

I did have a blast with gnomes as one of the big, bad evil guys.  Well, at least they were "big" in their "badness", as a group. So small, vastly evil, cabal guys.