Greetings!

For many years, as a DM, I hated Gnomes. In my view, Gnomes as presented largely in the official rulebook seemed uninspiring, and more or less pointless. On one hand, you have Dwarves, and on the other hand, Halflings. Having a third benevolent, short, small, subterranean humanoid race front and center as a Player Character option didn't strike me as being very interesting or worthwhile.

However, as I was researching material for a game book I'm hoping to publish, I was reading lots of Norse, Slavic, Baltic and Finnish mythology and history. Surprisingly, Forest Gnomes within such mythological literature leaped out at me as being interesting, and different. Yes, there were still Dwarves and Halflings, and various other short, subterranean races, as well as Elves--and yet, races such as the Forest Gnomes emerged as being distinct, and interesting.

So, I was inspired to include a culture of Forest Gnomes into some different regions of my campaign world, and I think they feel very much at home there. While still, of course, sharing similarities with Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings, using Gnomes as inspired by Norse and Slavic mythology--instead of the official game books--has actually made them a solid addition. Forest Gnomes are also prominently featured in Finnish mythology, being subterranean, but also surface dwelling. Such Gnomes live in tribes and rural communities in the forests, and are generally allies of Elves, and often towards Humans as well.

Mythological Gnomes are magical, and are into crafting, but are definitely not "steam punk". The Forest Gnomes of Norse, Finnish, and Slavic mythology are also a bit mystical, too. Being closely tied to magic, and the natural elements, such as the forest, hills, water, air, and fire. Very interesting interpretations of Gnomes! I like them, now.

Have you made similar discoveries through mythology? Stuff presented in official game books at often bland by comparison.

I've also noticed that in the mythology, creatures such as Hulda, Nymphs, Dryads, and Rusalka--are all far more focused on sex and are also very dangerous to Humans--but also often drawn into romantic relationships with Humans. With these creatures as well, the mythological faerie races are far more interesting than what we get in official game books. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK 

Gnomes are the original hobbits!

Definitely my fav PC in AD&D 1e was the Gnome Illusionist / Thief.

For me, a game/setting MUST either either have interesting differences between Halflings and Gnomes or cut one of the two.

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 28, 2023, 07:41:13 PM
Gnomes are the original hobbits!

Definitely my fav PC in AD&D 1e was the Gnome Illusionist / Thief.

For me, a game/setting MUST either either have interesting differences between Halflings and Gnomes or cut one of the two.

Agree with this, except that I would extend it to say it can also matter how you fit dwarfs and elves into it.  Or in some cases, how you handle various goblin/redcap bits.  But then I'm always one to want to keep the list of playable races in any given campaign rather short.  Given that, only 1 or 2 playable "short" races will typically make the cut.

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 28, 2023, 07:41:13 PM
Gnomes are the original hobbits!

Definitely my fav PC in AD&D 1e was the Gnome Illusionist / Thief.

For me, a game/setting MUST either either have interesting differences between Halflings and Gnomes or cut one of the two.

I was always fond of the 2e Gnomes. They are generally optimistic, benevolent, good craftsmen, and fond of knowledge for its own sake. I'm not opposed to steampunk, but even if Gnomes in a given world aren't Steampunk, they're nice. My Gnomes are generally more like Late Antique Greeks, particularly of Alexandria in Egypt and Rhodes: users of block and tackle and treadwheel cranes and not much more than that. Still, I was always very fond of them.

You make a good observation here, SHARK.  I've never really known what to do with Gnomes as they do seem a little superfluous given Dwarves and Halflings.  And even if we make them forest denizens they seem to encroach a little on the milieu typically associated with Elves. 

I'm running a C&C campaign and I'm already planning the next one and was trying to figure out how Gnomes fit in.  I don't mind them being tinkerers and skilled craftsmen, but since my campaigns don't really have an element of steampunk in them I try to stay away from that stereotype.  For now, I've settled on them being somewhat nomadic with them occasionally settling near Halfling settlements where hills and forest meet//combine.  I still don't feel like this is a great spot for them so I'll be watching this thread for other ideas.

I may also go back and read some of the mythology you're referencing to see if I can find some new inspiration.  Given the elemental component you referenced, maybe I'll put their villages around portals or elemental/mystical links to certain elements (magical pools, a lava flow that can be refined into something magical, etc.).

I'm a huge fan of forest gnomes. My forest gnomes are... well, if you've ever read Wil Huygen's "Gnomes", there's a fair bit of inspiration there. They're very clever, and in their own way surprisingly industrious - depending on where they live, they may have simple windmills or waterwheels, things like that, but all at a very low-tech level, wood and stone. They do metalworking, but only to a fairly limited extent. Not steampunk, just... clever. And anyone wandering into gnome woods had best be on the lookout - they are trap makers to put even elves to shame.

That said, currently in my game gnomes exist, but aren't playable. I do plan to come up with rules for them, but they're going to be a special case character, like Pixies or Centaurs - they are nominally "humanish", mentally, but physically they are far enough outside the norm that they're complicated to run along with a normal party. My gnomes are only about two feet tall. They're not quite "live in a mushroom" small... Pixies are smaller than gnomes, at about a foot or a little better tall if they stand on the ground.

"Faeries" in my setting collectively refers to wood elves, gnomes, and pixies, along with a few other things that are less suitable for players. It basically means "elusive, small-statured woodland humanoid", and has various degrees of respect or disrespect baked in, depending on context and who's using it .

I also do have deep gnomes. They are to dwarves what forest gnomes are to wood elves - smaller, more elusive, more "elemental", physically less imposing but more mystical.

Of course, my elves are more of the original short variety than the more modern tall variety - a wood elf is only slightly taller than a dwarf.

I've always toyed with the idea of treating gnomes as "Forest Gnomes", and often mention them as being one of the fey creatures allied with Elves in the forest, when giving players a general idea of what they know about the world during introductions...then promptly forget they exist when PCs actually venture into the forest, and only mention elves and other woodland creatures--mostly animals and woodland adversaries (Gnolls, etc.), and maybe pixies and butterfly winged faeries. I don't even include them as PC races (even when I mention they exist), cuz nobody wants to play them regardless. They just have to much overlap with Dwarves and Halflings, as well as Elves when I turn them into "Forest Gnomes", all of which are far cooler than Gnomes as PC choices.

So, I've actually considered and technically even done this, but it never panned out in practice, cuz I only remember them during session 0, when laying out the world building details, lol 

In C&C gnomes are explicitly fey creatures and all possess innate minor magic.  It's a good take, IMO, though I'll admit to liking their takes on demi-humans in general.  And in their Codex Germania there's a woodcutter gnome called a Bysen that provides another take.  Just rolled one up last week as a matter of fact.

Quote from: Persimmon on March 01, 2023, 02:45:55 PM
In C&C gnomes are explicitly fey creatures and all possess innate minor magic.  It's a good take, IMO, though I'll admit to liking their takes on demi-humans in general.  And in their Codex Germania there's a woodcutter gnome called a Bysen that provides another take.  Just rolled one up last week as a matter of fact.

Greetings!

Sounds good, Persimmon! I love stuff inspired by mythology! C&C has done good work through the years, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 10:55:19 AM
I'm a huge fan of forest gnomes. My forest gnomes are... well, if you've ever read Wil Huygen's "Gnomes", there's a fair bit of inspiration there. They're very clever, and in their own way surprisingly industrious - depending on where they live, they may have simple windmills or waterwheels, things like that, but all at a very low-tech level, wood and stone. They do metalworking, but only to a fairly limited extent. Not steampunk, just... clever. And anyone wandering into gnome woods had best be on the lookout - they are trap makers to put even elves to shame.

It seems to me that in terms of archetypes, gnomes like Huygen portrayed them come from the same mythic archetype as Tolkien's hobbits. They're little people who are good at hiding from bigger folk, and build clever things that blend into the background of the big human world.

I ran into this when I was trying to adapt both gnomes and halflings into my current campaign world. It seemed like while there were technical differences, they both fell into the same niche of mythology/iconography. I wanted to fit them both into mythic archetypes, and it was giving me trouble. I'm still pondering how I want to adapt them.

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on March 01, 2023, 09:42:32 AM
You make a good observation here, SHARK.  I've never really known what to do with Gnomes as they do seem a little superfluous given Dwarves and Halflings.  And even if we make them forest denizens they seem to encroach a little on the milieu typically associated with Elves. 

I'm running a C&C campaign and I'm already planning the next one and was trying to figure out how Gnomes fit in.  I don't mind them being tinkerers and skilled craftsmen, but since my campaigns don't really have an element of steampunk in them I try to stay away from that stereotype.  For now, I've settled on them being somewhat nomadic with them occasionally settling near Halfling settlements where hills and forest meet//combine.  I still don't feel like this is a great spot for them so I'll be watching this thread for other ideas.

I may also go back and read some of the mythology you're referencing to see if I can find some new inspiration.  Given the elemental component you referenced, maybe I'll put their villages around portals or elemental/mystical links to certain elements (magical pools, a lava flow that can be refined into something magical, etc.).

Greetings!

Outstanding, my friend!

Admittedly, mythology doesn't really have *Halfings* per se, so maybe the problem all along is using Halflings? Ultimately, I think Halflings--from Tolkien of course--are an agricultural reskinning of the mythological Gnomes, then given an Old English gloss. Gnomes, after all, predated Halflings for sure. Definitely, within the mythological works, Elves, Gnomes, and Dwarves fit together nicely enough, dancing with Faeries off to one side, and humans being a central element. Then of course, monsters, demons, dragons and on and on. But, it's all there, and Gnomes are prominent in mythology, from Germanic myth, to Slavic myth, to the Norse and Finns.

I think Gnomes are definitely worth a second look, and some consideration, regardless of what you choose to do for example with Dwarves, or Halflings, within a campaign. I am enjoying the Gnomes' kind of mystical, woodsy, almost tribal feel to them. You can see they are also distinct from Dwarves or Halflings, and more similar to Elves, but also different. The Gnomes tend to be more practical than Elves, and yet also more mundane and somewhat aloof or reclusive than Elves.

Interesting stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 01, 2023, 03:18:00 PM
Admittedly, mythology doesn't really have *Halfings* per se, so maybe the problem all along is using Halflings? Ultimately, I think Halflings--from Tolkien of course--are an agricultural reskinning of the mythological Gnomes, then given an Old English gloss. Gnomes, after all, predated Halflings for sure. Definitely, within the mythological works, Elves, Gnomes, and Dwarves fit together nicely enough, dancing with Faeries off to one side, and humans being a central element. Then of course, monsters, demons, dragons and on and on. But, it's all there, and Gnomes are prominent in mythology, from Germanic myth, to Slavic myth, to the Norse and Finns.

SHARK, I think you've hit on an important point.  Using both gnomes and halflings is a little like trying to use both coal-fired steam generators along with fusion reactors.  They are different concepts from different cultural milieus.  Gnomes weren't a taxonomically distinct creature in mythology; their nature and disposition varied as the story and the narrative need changed.  But, through our modern lenses, we feel compelled to define the "gnome" as a creature and species (especially if we want them to be playable character races), much like Tolkien described his halflings in the beginning of The Hobbit and the Prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring.  In a mythological context, gnomes could easily be halflings, depending on the story, etc.  So it makes it hard to delineate halflings from gnomes, as we're trying to draw a distinction between a clearly visualized fantasy race and an amorphous blob of mythological connotations...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:48:28 PMGnomes weren't a taxonomically distinct creature in mythology; their nature and disposition varied as the story and the narrative need changed.

So, too, elves, dwarves, faeries, dragons, ghosts, goblins... Such is the varied nature of mythology. Yet we manage to make something of them in RPGs.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:48:28 PMSo it makes it hard to delineate halflings from gnomes

Seems easy enough to me.

Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 08:03:27 PM
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves

Hah.

I've actually done something sort of along these lines. Dwarves that don't dwell in and around the mountains, "surface" dwarves (although it's something of a misnomer... Even in the mountains and highlands, plenty of dwarves live or work on the surface) tend to build earth-sheltered, stone houses, and have a sort of amish-inspired culture. Insular, clannish, humble, tradition-bound, hard working.