Greetings!
For many years, as a DM, I hated Gnomes. In my view, Gnomes as presented largely in the official rulebook seemed uninspiring, and more or less pointless. On one hand, you have Dwarves, and on the other hand, Halflings. Having a third benevolent, short, small, subterranean humanoid race front and center as a Player Character option didn't strike me as being very interesting or worthwhile.
However, as I was researching material for a game book I'm hoping to publish, I was reading lots of Norse, Slavic, Baltic and Finnish mythology and history. Surprisingly, Forest Gnomes within such mythological literature leaped out at me as being interesting, and different. Yes, there were still Dwarves and Halflings, and various other short, subterranean races, as well as Elves--and yet, races such as the Forest Gnomes emerged as being distinct, and interesting.
So, I was inspired to include a culture of Forest Gnomes into some different regions of my campaign world, and I think they feel very much at home there. While still, of course, sharing similarities with Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings, using Gnomes as inspired by Norse and Slavic mythology--instead of the official game books--has actually made them a solid addition. Forest Gnomes are also prominently featured in Finnish mythology, being subterranean, but also surface dwelling. Such Gnomes live in tribes and rural communities in the forests, and are generally allies of Elves, and often towards Humans as well.
Mythological Gnomes are magical, and are into crafting, but are definitely not "steam punk". The Forest Gnomes of Norse, Finnish, and Slavic mythology are also a bit mystical, too. Being closely tied to magic, and the natural elements, such as the forest, hills, water, air, and fire. Very interesting interpretations of Gnomes! I like them, now.
Have you made similar discoveries through mythology? Stuff presented in official game books at often bland by comparison.
I've also noticed that in the mythology, creatures such as Hulda, Nymphs, Dryads, and Rusalka--are all far more focused on sex and are also very dangerous to Humans--but also often drawn into romantic relationships with Humans. With these creatures as well, the mythological faerie races are far more interesting than what we get in official game books. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Gnomes are the original hobbits!
Definitely my fav PC in AD&D 1e was the Gnome Illusionist / Thief.
For me, a game/setting MUST either either have interesting differences between Halflings and Gnomes or cut one of the two.
Quote from: Spinachcat on February 28, 2023, 07:41:13 PM
Gnomes are the original hobbits!
Definitely my fav PC in AD&D 1e was the Gnome Illusionist / Thief.
For me, a game/setting MUST either either have interesting differences between Halflings and Gnomes or cut one of the two.
Agree with this, except that I would extend it to say it can also matter how you fit dwarfs and elves into it. Or in some cases, how you handle various goblin/redcap bits. But then I'm always one to want to keep the list of playable races in any given campaign rather short. Given that, only 1 or 2 playable "short" races will typically make the cut.
Quote from: Spinachcat on February 28, 2023, 07:41:13 PM
Gnomes are the original hobbits!
Definitely my fav PC in AD&D 1e was the Gnome Illusionist / Thief.
For me, a game/setting MUST either either have interesting differences between Halflings and Gnomes or cut one of the two.
I was always fond of the 2e Gnomes. They are generally optimistic, benevolent, good craftsmen, and fond of knowledge for its own sake. I'm not opposed to steampunk, but even if Gnomes in a given world aren't Steampunk, they're nice. My Gnomes are generally more like Late Antique Greeks, particularly of Alexandria in Egypt and Rhodes: users of block and tackle and treadwheel cranes and not much more than that. Still, I was always very fond of them.
You make a good observation here, SHARK. I've never really known what to do with Gnomes as they do seem a little superfluous given Dwarves and Halflings. And even if we make them forest denizens they seem to encroach a little on the milieu typically associated with Elves.
I'm running a C&C campaign and I'm already planning the next one and was trying to figure out how Gnomes fit in. I don't mind them being tinkerers and skilled craftsmen, but since my campaigns don't really have an element of steampunk in them I try to stay away from that stereotype. For now, I've settled on them being somewhat nomadic with them occasionally settling near Halfling settlements where hills and forest meet//combine. I still don't feel like this is a great spot for them so I'll be watching this thread for other ideas.
I may also go back and read some of the mythology you're referencing to see if I can find some new inspiration. Given the elemental component you referenced, maybe I'll put their villages around portals or elemental/mystical links to certain elements (magical pools, a lava flow that can be refined into something magical, etc.).
I'm a huge fan of forest gnomes. My forest gnomes are... well, if you've ever read Wil Huygen's "Gnomes", there's a fair bit of inspiration there. They're very clever, and in their own way surprisingly industrious - depending on where they live, they may have simple windmills or waterwheels, things like that, but all at a very low-tech level, wood and stone. They do metalworking, but only to a fairly limited extent. Not steampunk, just... clever. And anyone wandering into gnome woods had best be on the lookout - they are trap makers to put even elves to shame.
That said, currently in my game gnomes exist, but aren't playable. I do plan to come up with rules for them, but they're going to be a special case character, like Pixies or Centaurs - they are nominally "humanish", mentally, but physically they are far enough outside the norm that they're complicated to run along with a normal party. My gnomes are only about two feet tall. They're not quite "live in a mushroom" small... Pixies are smaller than gnomes, at about a foot or a little better tall if they stand on the ground.
"Faeries" in my setting collectively refers to wood elves, gnomes, and pixies, along with a few other things that are less suitable for players. It basically means "elusive, small-statured woodland humanoid", and has various degrees of respect or disrespect baked in, depending on context and who's using it .
I also do have deep gnomes. They are to dwarves what forest gnomes are to wood elves - smaller, more elusive, more "elemental", physically less imposing but more mystical.
Of course, my elves are more of the original short variety than the more modern tall variety - a wood elf is only slightly taller than a dwarf.
I've always toyed with the idea of treating gnomes as "Forest Gnomes", and often mention them as being one of the fey creatures allied with Elves in the forest, when giving players a general idea of what they know about the world during introductions...then promptly forget they exist when PCs actually venture into the forest, and only mention elves and other woodland creatures--mostly animals and woodland adversaries (Gnolls, etc.), and maybe pixies and butterfly winged faeries. I don't even include them as PC races (even when I mention they exist), cuz nobody wants to play them regardless. They just have to much overlap with Dwarves and Halflings, as well as Elves when I turn them into "Forest Gnomes", all of which are far cooler than Gnomes as PC choices.
So, I've actually considered and technically even done this, but it never panned out in practice, cuz I only remember them during session 0, when laying out the world building details, lol ;D
In C&C gnomes are explicitly fey creatures and all possess innate minor magic. It's a good take, IMO, though I'll admit to liking their takes on demi-humans in general. And in their Codex Germania there's a woodcutter gnome called a Bysen that provides another take. Just rolled one up last week as a matter of fact.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 01, 2023, 02:45:55 PM
In C&C gnomes are explicitly fey creatures and all possess innate minor magic. It's a good take, IMO, though I'll admit to liking their takes on demi-humans in general. And in their Codex Germania there's a woodcutter gnome called a Bysen that provides another take. Just rolled one up last week as a matter of fact.
Greetings!
Sounds good, Persimmon! I love stuff inspired by mythology! C&C has done good work through the years, too!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 10:55:19 AM
I'm a huge fan of forest gnomes. My forest gnomes are... well, if you've ever read Wil Huygen's "Gnomes", there's a fair bit of inspiration there. They're very clever, and in their own way surprisingly industrious - depending on where they live, they may have simple windmills or waterwheels, things like that, but all at a very low-tech level, wood and stone. They do metalworking, but only to a fairly limited extent. Not steampunk, just... clever. And anyone wandering into gnome woods had best be on the lookout - they are trap makers to put even elves to shame.
It seems to me that in terms of archetypes, gnomes like Huygen portrayed them come from the same mythic archetype as Tolkien's hobbits. They're little people who are good at hiding from bigger folk, and build clever things that blend into the background of the big human world.
I ran into this when I was trying to adapt both gnomes and halflings into my current campaign world. It seemed like while there were technical differences, they both fell into the same niche of mythology/iconography. I wanted to fit them both into mythic archetypes, and it was giving me trouble. I'm still pondering how I want to adapt them.
Quote from: Brooding Paladin on March 01, 2023, 09:42:32 AM
You make a good observation here, SHARK. I've never really known what to do with Gnomes as they do seem a little superfluous given Dwarves and Halflings. And even if we make them forest denizens they seem to encroach a little on the milieu typically associated with Elves.
I'm running a C&C campaign and I'm already planning the next one and was trying to figure out how Gnomes fit in. I don't mind them being tinkerers and skilled craftsmen, but since my campaigns don't really have an element of steampunk in them I try to stay away from that stereotype. For now, I've settled on them being somewhat nomadic with them occasionally settling near Halfling settlements where hills and forest meet//combine. I still don't feel like this is a great spot for them so I'll be watching this thread for other ideas.
I may also go back and read some of the mythology you're referencing to see if I can find some new inspiration. Given the elemental component you referenced, maybe I'll put their villages around portals or elemental/mystical links to certain elements (magical pools, a lava flow that can be refined into something magical, etc.).
Greetings!
Outstanding, my friend!
Admittedly, mythology doesn't really have *Halfings* per se, so maybe the problem all along is using Halflings? ;D Ultimately, I think Halflings--from Tolkien of course--are an agricultural reskinning of the mythological Gnomes, then given an Old English gloss. Gnomes, after all, predated Halflings for sure. Definitely, within the mythological works, Elves, Gnomes, and Dwarves fit together nicely enough, dancing with Faeries off to one side, and humans being a central element. Then of course, monsters, demons, dragons and on and on. But, it's all there, and Gnomes are prominent in mythology, from Germanic myth, to Slavic myth, to the Norse and Finns.
I think Gnomes are definitely worth a second look, and some consideration, regardless of what you choose to do for example with Dwarves, or Halflings, within a campaign. I am enjoying the Gnomes' kind of mystical, woodsy, almost tribal feel to them. You can see they are also distinct from Dwarves or Halflings, and more similar to Elves, but also different. The Gnomes tend to be more practical than Elves, and yet also more mundane and somewhat aloof or reclusive than Elves.
Interesting stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 01, 2023, 03:18:00 PM
Admittedly, mythology doesn't really have *Halfings* per se, so maybe the problem all along is using Halflings? ;D Ultimately, I think Halflings--from Tolkien of course--are an agricultural reskinning of the mythological Gnomes, then given an Old English gloss. Gnomes, after all, predated Halflings for sure. Definitely, within the mythological works, Elves, Gnomes, and Dwarves fit together nicely enough, dancing with Faeries off to one side, and humans being a central element. Then of course, monsters, demons, dragons and on and on. But, it's all there, and Gnomes are prominent in mythology, from Germanic myth, to Slavic myth, to the Norse and Finns.
SHARK, I think you've hit on an important point. Using both gnomes and halflings is a little like trying to use both coal-fired steam generators along with fusion reactors. They are different concepts from different cultural milieus. Gnomes weren't a taxonomically distinct creature in mythology; their nature and disposition varied as the story and the narrative need changed. But, through our modern lenses, we feel compelled to define the "gnome" as a creature and species (especially if we want them to be playable character races), much like Tolkien described his halflings in the beginning of
The Hobbit and the Prologue of
The Fellowship of the Ring. In a mythological context, gnomes could easily
be halflings, depending on the story, etc. So it makes it hard to delineate halflings from gnomes, as we're trying to draw a distinction between a clearly visualized fantasy race and an amorphous blob of mythological connotations...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:48:28 PMGnomes weren't a taxonomically distinct creature in mythology; their nature and disposition varied as the story and the narrative need changed.
So, too, elves, dwarves, faeries, dragons, ghosts, goblins... Such is the varied nature of mythology. Yet we manage to make something of them in RPGs.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:48:28 PMSo it makes it hard to delineate halflings from gnomes
Seems easy enough to me.
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 08:03:27 PM
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves
Hah.
I've actually done something sort of along these lines. Dwarves that don't dwell in and around the mountains, "surface" dwarves (although it's something of a misnomer... Even in the mountains and highlands, plenty of dwarves live or work on the surface) tend to build earth-sheltered, stone houses, and have a sort of amish-inspired culture. Insular, clannish, humble, tradition-bound, hard working.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 10:55:19 AM
I'm a huge fan of forest gnomes. My forest gnomes are... well, if you've ever read Wil Huygen's "Gnomes", there's a fair bit of inspiration there. ...
I absolutely love Huygens' gnomes. I'm sad that I never found a a good way to make such tiny characters work in a D&D party. I think an RPG based on Hugens' various works would be amazing.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 08:36:31 PM
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 08:03:27 PM
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves
Hah.
I've actually done something sort of along these lines. Dwarves that don't dwell in and around the mountains, "surface" dwarves (although it's something of a misnomer... Even in the mountains and highlands, plenty of dwarves live or work on the surface) tend to build earth-sheltered, stone houses, and have a sort of amish-inspired culture. Insular, clannish, humble, tradition-bound, hard working.
What do you call your sea dwarves?
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 09:01:34 PM
What do you call your sea dwarves?
I don't really have much in the way of "sea" races, at least not fleshed out. Above the waves, it's just whoever happens to be sailing them. Below, I've never really fleshed out.
Less seriously: Drunken Shrimps
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 09:08:43 PM
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 09:01:34 PM
What do you call your sea dwarves?
Less seriously: Drunken Shrimps
AMAZING
Seriously:
Meant more like "beach dwarves" than a Waterworld thing, but "beach dwarves" just doesn't really sound badass at all
Unless you're running hipster elves already, I guess
I've always had dwarves avoiding ships because they're too dense to swim.
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 08:03:27 PM
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves
This is basically what The Dark Eye did with them. There are no Halflings or Gnomes. But there are Hill Dwarves that read just like Halflings and the Diamond Dwarves feel a little bit like Gnomes, though still pretty distinctly Dwarves. Then there are Ore Dwarves and Forge Dwarves that are more Dwarvenly (yeah, made that word up).
They like themselves some Dwarves. But my real guess is they don't like themselves some lawsuits and steered wide of anyone else's RP.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 01, 2023, 03:18:00 PM
Admittedly, mythology doesn't really have *Halfings* per se, so maybe the problem all along is using Halflings?
SHARK, I think you've hit on an important point. Using both gnomes and halflings is a little like trying to use both coal-fired steam generators along with fusion reactors. They are different concepts from different cultural milieus. Gnomes weren't a taxonomically distinct creature in mythology; their nature and disposition varied as the story and the narrative need changed. But, through our modern lenses, we feel compelled to define the "gnome" as a creature and species (especially if we want them to be playable character races), much like Tolkien described his halflings in the beginning of The Hobbit and the Prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring. In a mythological context, gnomes could easily be halflings, depending on the story, etc. So it makes it hard to delineate halflings from gnomes, as we're trying to draw a distinction between a clearly visualized fantasy race and an amorphous blob of mythological connotations...
Actually, I thought the same exact thing as I read through SHARK's point on this. Well, not exactly as I'm not as versed on energy production. ;D But if I sit here and contemplate a world without Halflings I easily see where Gnomes would fit and possibly even better. Blasphemy to some, I know, and I feel a little dirty contemplating it given my appreciation for Tolkien. But I definitely agree Gnomes were there first and maybe we've/I've got the problem backwards.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 01, 2023, 10:31:10 PM
I've always had dwarves avoiding ships because they're too dense to swim.
That would be true of mountain dwarves lifting rocks in the squat mine tunnels all day, sea dwarves I'd think as skinnier, maybe slightly taller on average to other dwarves. Both should be able to hold their breath for longer too, given toxic gasses or deep diving, not sure about forest dwarves though, unless taller trees means real high elevations.
Quote from: Brooding Paladin on March 02, 2023, 12:31:48 PM
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 01, 2023, 08:03:27 PM
Gnomes: Forest dwarves
Hobbits: Plains dwarves
Dwarves: Dwarven dwarves
This is basically what The Dark Eye did with them. There are no Halflings or Gnomes. But there are Hill Dwarves that read just like Halflings and the Diamond Dwarves feel a little bit like Gnomes, though still pretty distinctly Dwarves. Then there are Ore Dwarves and Forge Dwarves that are more Dwarvenly (yeah, made that word up).
They like themselves some Dwarves. But my real guess is they don't like themselves some lawsuits and steered wide of anyone else's RP.
I'm going to explore that system a bit, looks cool.
Gnomes are small plastic, cement or other materials lawn ornaments.
Quote from: Brooding Paladin on March 02, 2023, 12:35:35 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 01, 2023, 03:18:00 PM
Admittedly, mythology doesn't really have *Halfings* per se, so maybe the problem all along is using Halflings?
SHARK, I think you've hit on an important point. Using both gnomes and halflings is a little like trying to use both coal-fired steam generators along with fusion reactors. They are different concepts from different cultural milieus. Gnomes weren't a taxonomically distinct creature in mythology; their nature and disposition varied as the story and the narrative need changed. But, through our modern lenses, we feel compelled to define the "gnome" as a creature and species (especially if we want them to be playable character races), much like Tolkien described his halflings in the beginning of The Hobbit and the Prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring. In a mythological context, gnomes could easily be halflings, depending on the story, etc. So it makes it hard to delineate halflings from gnomes, as we're trying to draw a distinction between a clearly visualized fantasy race and an amorphous blob of mythological connotations...
Actually, I thought the same exact thing as I read through SHARK's point on this. Well, not exactly as I'm not as versed on energy production. ;D But if I sit here and contemplate a world without Halflings I easily see where Gnomes would fit and possibly even better. Blasphemy to some, I know, and I feel a little dirty contemplating it given my appreciation for Tolkien. But I definitely agree Gnomes were there first and maybe we've/I've got the problem backwards.
Back in ENWorld, on one of the Gygax Q&A threads, someone asked about the origin of Gnomes. He answered that they were based on folktales of spirits of mines (which is probably why the "standard" gnome is the Rock Gnome, not the Forest one). Just at that they seem different enough from Hobbits, who are basically somewhat romanticised English peasants. Gnomes are closer to Nockers or house-spirits, more industrious than the bucolic Hobbits (pre-Scouring, that is).
There was an old saw that England was a nation of shopkeepers, and I can easily see Hobbits fitting that stereotype, while Gnomes are closer to craftsmen and academics. Now, the dwarves also fulfill some of the craftsman tropes, but they are more focused on metalwork (maybe even steelwork) and stonework. Working with tin and copper, or God forbid, wood, isn't very Dwarf-like, and that's some of the slack the Gnomes can pick up.
I like this, Wtrmute. Good angle.
One adventure that I like to run for new campaigns is one where the party stumbles upon the ruins of a gnomish settlement. This underground complex is centuries, maybe even millenia old. It has a domed structure with many side lassages leading off to apartments, workshops and mine tunnels. There is usually an underground river that the gnomes have placed a water wheel in to power machinery with.
Each time I run the scenario, it is a little different. One time the gnomes were wiled out by a crazy illusionist who dabbled in demonology. He ended up making a pact with juiblex and becoming part ooze. Another time the gnomes caught a virulent plague. There were undead plague zombies roaming throughout the place.
The gnomes in my world are dispered. They often live in human cities, and have little enclaves there where they like to lead quiet lives. They are very interested in their culture and lost history and will pay top dollar...err...Gold piece for artifacts made by their ancestors, ancient gnomish writings, and the location of their ancestral homes.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 01, 2023, 08:53:42 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 01, 2023, 10:55:19 AM
I'm a huge fan of forest gnomes. My forest gnomes are... well, if you've ever read Wil Huygen's "Gnomes", there's a fair bit of inspiration there. ...
I absolutely love Huygens' gnomes. I'm sad that I never found a a good way to make such tiny characters work in a D&D party. I think an RPG based on Hugens' various works would be amazing.
They did have a board game based on Huygens' book. It was simple -- for little kids -- but it had great artwork (of course) and I and my cousins had a great time playing it when we were little. Anybody here who hasn't read
Gnomes should really seek it out. These gnomes are not like D & D gnomes though, so don't bring that expectation with you.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:11:33 AM
Each time I run the scenario, it is a little different. One time the gnomes were wiled out by a crazy illusionist who dabbled in demonology. He ended up making a pact with juiblex and becoming part ooze. Another time the gnomes caught a virulent plague. There were undead plague zombies roaming throughout the place.
I did have a blast with gnomes as one of the big, bad evil guys. Well, at least they were "big" in their "badness", as a group. So small, vastly evil, cabal guys. :D
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 02, 2023, 12:42:20 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on March 01, 2023, 10:31:10 PM
I've always had dwarves avoiding ships because they're too dense to swim.
That would be true of mountain dwarves lifting rocks in the squat mine tunnels all day, sea dwarves I'd think as skinnier, maybe slightly taller on average to other dwarves. Both should be able to hold their breath for longer too, given toxic gasses or deep diving, not sure about forest dwarves though, unless taller trees means real high elevations.
I just recalled that in one setting I did it differently. Dwarves sailed the seas in vast ships made of living stone. This was stolen from the Thomas Covenant books of course. This world was Jupiter sized too, so extremely stable ships made a great deal of sense when traversing the enormous oceans with their equally enormous storms. I thought that was neat, but it didn't ever get into a game session.
I also recall that back in the age of pirates most sailors couldn't swim. They figured that if their ship sank then being able to would only prolong the dying process.
This jogged my memory that in the Shannara books for all their blatant ripping off Tolkien, the gnomes are the twisted little evil guys.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 03, 2023, 11:54:08 AM
I also recall that back in the age of pirates most sailors couldn't swim. They figured that if their ship sank then being able to would only prolong the dying process.
Few men face certain death so bravely.
My gnomes are basically "The Lost Boys" from Peter Pan. They are "born" out of forest mists fully clothed and ready for adventure, if "killed", they disolve into mist only to reborn without memories of their past life the following night, ready for new adventures.
You see, gnomes in my setting are immortal spirits that embody the dreams of children and made manifest by the world's magical nature. Their innate abilities are rather dreamlike; they can wield objects as if they were a grown man, can find random useful items in their pockets as if they'd been there all along, and slip from sight if something too scary is about to happen.
They don't have a mortal conception of death and are typically horrified to learn that others have just one life to live, but because they are also inherently brave and adventurous this usually leads to the resolve to protect their "fragile" friends. After all, the only thing they have to risk are their memories and they can always make more of those.
Oh, and I don't have Halflings in my setting... I do have pygmy peoples, but mechanically those are just humans on the extreme small end of the range (ie. males average less than 4' 11" in height with some as short as 4'). This is largely because Halflings in most settings are just short humans with perhaps some cultural proclivities towards certain weapons or tasks and the human racial trait of adaptability in the setting could grant all the Halfling-ish traits to a group of humans pretty easily.
Gnomes should only be embraced by hands around their necks.
Yeah, I get that there is some Olde World charm about them but the fantasy that I draw from is not that inspired by the Olde World. I didn't grow up on fairy tales as much as I grew up on the Tolkien and Lloyd Alexander and some Conan and Niven books. Those authors that inspired may have been inspired by Olde World fairy tales, but the stories that inspired me are two or more generations removed from them. Let the gnomes die already.
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 04, 2023, 08:07:26 AM
Gnomes should only be embraced by hands around their necks.
Yeah, I get that there is some Olde World charm about them but the fantasy that I draw from is not that inspired by the Olde World. I didn't grow up on fairy tales as much as I grew up on the Tolkien and Lloyd Alexander and some Conan and Niven books. Those authors that inspired may have been inspired by Olde World fairy tales, but the stories that inspired me are two or more generations removed from them. Let the gnomes die already.
Gnomes at least have more mythological/folklore elements to build from to make them unique to a particular setting than the Hobbit expies who are invariably either played like short rural humans (in which case just play a short rural human) or as ::SHUDDER:: Kender.
I have grown extremely apathetic towards Tolkein-alike settings (I was going to say 'hate' but that implies enough feelings to care one way or another whether those settings live or die)... largely because they ape only the surface details without understanding their purpose or, worse, are third-hand derivatives that give no thought to why halflings (or elves or dwarves or goblins or orcs or color-coded dragons for that matter) exist in their worlds beyond "other settings have them."
The very fact that "Standard Fantasy Setting" https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFantasySetting (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFantasySetting) even exists as a trope stings my soul a bit.
This isn't aimed at GMs so much as game designers... but for the love of God can you stop making Tolkein-expy setting #543 and may create something original? Maybe? At least think about what about your non-humans makes them not just a Tolkien clone.
Gnomes at least stand better than even odds of being something different owing to their not actually appearing in Tolkien... which is why I definitely prefer them to Halflings.
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 04, 2023, 08:07:26 AM
Gnomes should only be embraced by hands around their necks.
Yeah, I get that there is some Olde World charm about them but the fantasy that I draw from is not that inspired by the Olde World. I didn't grow up on fairy tales as much as I grew up on the Tolkien and Lloyd Alexander and some Conan and Niven books. Those authors that inspired may have been inspired by Olde World fairy tales, but the stories that inspired me are two or more generations removed from them. Let the gnomes die already.
If the githyanki and the githzerai were the same race all along, I guess that would be a fair take.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2023, 07:50:44 AM
My gnomes are basically "The Lost Boys" from Peter Pan. They are "born" out of forest mists fully clothed and ready for adventure, if "killed", they disolve into mist only to reborn without memories of their past life the following night, ready for new adventures.
You see, gnomes in my setting are immortal spirits that embody the dreams of children and made manifest by the world's magical nature. Their innate abilities are rather dreamlike; they can wield objects as if they were a grown man, can find random useful items in their pockets as if they'd been there all along, and slip from sight if something too scary is about to happen.
They don't have a mortal conception of death and are typically horrified to learn that others have just one life to live, but because they are also inherently brave and adventurous this usually leads to the resolve to protect their "fragile" friends. After all, the only thing they have to risk are their memories and they can always make more of those.
Oh, and I don't have Halflings in my setting... I do have pygmy peoples, but mechanically those are just humans on the extreme small end of the range (ie. males average less than 4' 11" in height with some as short as 4'). This is largely because Halflings in most settings are just short humans with perhaps some cultural proclivities towards certain weapons or tasks and the human racial trait of adaptability in the setting could grant all the Halfling-ish traits to a group of humans pretty easily.
Ah yes the pygmies! Stange lot they are.
Coincidentally, I'm writing a small book on demi-humans and I am having a hard time with gnomes. They seem to be just smaller dwarves. I'm adding deep gnomes (that are smaller deep dwarves) and forest gnomes (that are basically smaller wood elves, or, in old school terms, Halflings - but at least they are the color of trees, which is different). What makes them unique? Even rumors are hard to find.
Here is what I've got on elves and dwarves, for example:
Rumors
• Elves do not have souls.
• Elves live for centuries.
• Elves do not die due to natural causes.
• Elves are harmed by iron.
• Elves love beauty more than life.
• Elves do not know shame or remorse.
• Elves are arrogant and self-righteous.
• Elves do not sleep and do not dream, they only meditate for six hours a day.
• Elves hide their children because they are so rare.
• Elves steal human children because they cannot have their own.
• All elves are mages.
• High elves despise non-elves.
• Wood elves talk to trees.
• The trees can hear them.
• Wood elves have greenish hair or skin.
• Drow have purple, obsidian or grey skin.
• Drow hate all other humanoids, especially high elves.
Rumors
• All dwarves have beards, including females.
• All dwarves live in big underground cities.
• Dwarves are made from earth.
• Dwarves turn to stone as they get old.
• Dwarves are born from the ground like worms. Their caves are dug from the inside.
• Dwarves cannot understand irony.
• Dwarves dislike spells, but love magical items. Crafting is the only type of magic dwarves respect.
• A hill or mountain dwarf with a short beard is usually a condemned criminal.
• Deep dwarves are unused to surface humanoids and will treat them as curiosities and celebrities.
• Deep dwarves hate other humanoids (including dwarves) and will occasionally eat them.
• Deep dwarves can become invisible.
• ...
I am saying they like engines, mechanical stuff, giving them a bonus to find traps, but other than that, I can't really see what makes them special among dwarves and Halflings.
And AD&D gnomes are just like dwarves and Halflings mechanically too. They have similar powers.
(TBH, I would just ditch Halflings if I could, but I want to be "faithful" to old school D&D).
Greetings!
Well, for me, several elements from "Olde World" mythology have inspired me. (Nice, Jeff!).
The Gnomes are presented as being distinctly mystical, and Pagan. They are generally reclusive, and tend to live in woodsy cabin-like houses, or quasi-subterranean dug-out style dwellings.
Morally and socially, the various tribes of gnomes strongly favour associating with Elves, Faeries, animals of the woodlands, as well as various benign nature-oriented spirit creatures--the elements, benevolent Rusalka, and similar.
Despite some points of obvious or potential conflict with Humans, the Gnomes tend towards having a positive relationship with Human communities. the Gnomes for whatever reasons feel protective towards Humans, and often seek to trade with Humans and likewise to befriend nearby Humans.
The Gnomes are steadfast in their love of nature and animals, and the Pagan gods. the Gnomes resolutely oppose evil races and creatures, and do not hesitate to attack them and make war upon them.
Gnomes are hard workers and diligent. they love magic, mysticism, as well as craftsmanship and creating high quality tools, goods, and toys. The Gnomes also prefer to dress in bright, happy colours when at home. Gnomes also are fond of food, cooking, and different drinks.
Apparently, Gnome tribes tend to be led by Chieftains, and or some kind of tribal council. Occasionally, Gnome tribes may have a Gnome King as a ruler.
That is what I have gleaned from much of the mythology. Definitely some thematic overlaps with Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. Still though, just on a brief survey of the mythological roots, I think Gnomes definitely have a different feel to them than what is presented in the Player's Handbook. I have enjoyed placing Gnomes in my own campaigns, and they somehow seem culturally more flexible than Halflings. Halflings so often get eye-rolls from Players, whereas Gnomes for some reason tend to evoke more respect, interest, and curiosity. Interesting stuff though!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2023, 11:36:20 AM
This isn't aimed at GMs so much as game designers... but for the love of God can you stop making Tolkein-expy setting #543 and may create something original? Maybe? At least think about what about your non-humans makes them not just a Tolkien clone.
Generally because something is original doesn't mean it is any good, you know. So game designers try to clone the big boys (in Fantasy, Tolkien and Howard; in Sci-Fi, Star Trek and maybe Star Wars) so they don't have
Spawn of Fashan on their hands.
PS: If you wanted to imitate Tolkien, then gnomes would be a subtype of Elf (the Noldor were originally known as "Gnomes" in Pre-1950s Legendarium)...
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 04, 2023, 10:06:45 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2023, 11:36:20 AM
This isn't aimed at GMs so much as game designers... but for the love of God can you stop making Tolkein-expy setting #543 and may create something original? Maybe? At least think about what about your non-humans makes them not just a Tolkien clone.
Generally because something is original doesn't mean it is any good, you know. So game designers try to clone the big boys (in Fantasy, Tolkien and Howard; in Sci-Fi, Star Trek and maybe Star Wars) so they don't have Spawn of Fashan on their hands.
PS: If you wanted to imitate Tolkien, then gnomes would be a subtype of Elf (the Noldor were originally known as "Gnomes" in Pre-1950s Legendarium)...
If something is original, maybe it's good maybe it's not. One more Tolkein clone, however, is guaranteed to bore me. I'll try the original every time at this point;.
Quote from: SHARK on March 04, 2023, 08:35:56 PM
Greetings!
Well, for me, several elements from "Olde World" mythology have inspired me. (Nice, Jeff!).
The Gnomes are presented as being distinctly mystical, and Pagan. They are generally reclusive, and tend to live in woodsy cabin-like houses, or quasi-subterranean dug-out style dwellings.
Morally and socially, the various tribes of gnomes strongly favour associating with Elves, Faeries, animals of the woodlands, as well as various benign nature-oriented spirit creatures--the elements, benevolent Rusalka, and similar.
Despite some points of obvious or potential conflict with Humans, the Gnomes tend towards having a positive relationship with Human communities. the Gnomes for whatever reasons feel protective towards Humans, and often seek to trade with Humans and likewise to befriend nearby Humans.
The Gnomes are steadfast in their love of nature and animals, and the Pagan gods. the Gnomes resolutely oppose evil races and creatures, and do not hesitate to attack them and make war upon them.
Gnomes are hard workers and diligent. they love magic, mysticism, as well as craftsmanship and creating high quality tools, goods, and toys. The Gnomes also prefer to dress in bright, happy colours when at home. Gnomes also are fond of food, cooking, and different drinks.
Apparently, Gnome tribes tend to be led by Chieftains, and or some kind of tribal council. Occasionally, Gnome tribes may have a Gnome King as a ruler.
That is what I have gleaned from much of the mythology. Definitely some thematic overlaps with Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. Still though, just on a brief survey of the mythological roots, I think Gnomes definitely have a different feel to them than what is presented in the Player's Handbook. I have enjoyed placing Gnomes in my own campaigns, and they somehow seem culturally more flexible than Halflings. Halflings so often get eye-rolls from Players, whereas Gnomes for some reason tend to evoke more respect, interest, and curiosity. Interesting stuff though!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
This is pretty close to how I envision gnomes. But like I mentioned in my other post, I never remember that they even exist in actual play, and no one's ever wanted to play one, so I tend to ignore them. But my head canon about how gnomes should be is pretty close to this.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 05, 2023, 03:13:30 AM
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 04, 2023, 10:06:45 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2023, 11:36:20 AM
This isn't aimed at GMs so much as game designers... but for the love of God can you stop making Tolkein-expy setting #543 and may create something original? Maybe? At least think about what about your non-humans makes them not just a Tolkien clone.
Generally because something is original doesn't mean it is any good, you know. So game designers try to clone the big boys (in Fantasy, Tolkien and Howard; in Sci-Fi, Star Trek and maybe Star Wars) so they don't have Spawn of Fashan on their hands.
PS: If you wanted to imitate Tolkien, then gnomes would be a subtype of Elf (the Noldor were originally known as "Gnomes" in Pre-1950s Legendarium)...
If something is original, maybe it's good maybe it's not. One more Tolkein clone, however, is guaranteed to bore me. I'll try the original every time at this point;.
Or at least do something original with the old standbys. My dwarves, for example, care so much about crafting/technology because they were shoddily assembled such that their limbs and organs wear out at vastly different rates, starting as early as just 20 years old, because their creators (the demons who ruled the world at that time) didn't expect them to live long enough in the hellish mines they were made to labor in for the organ failure to even be an issue.
But the dwarves basically invented (or perhaps rediscovered... the events were thousands of years ago and recorded only in myths and legends) arcane magic and artifice powered by it specifically to overthrow the demons and replace the parts of their bodies as they failed. And never one to just replace when they can improve, their artifice often grants them abilities superior to those of the limb or organ replaced.
This organ failure also led to a bit of an inversion of dwarven culture compared to the human stock from which they were created. Instead of waiting to become established before marrying and starting a family, organ failure could render a dwarf sterile at potentially any time and so dwarves marry and have families very young, 13-15 years of age, typically with the support of their parents and only after the family line is secured do they turn to other pursuits (once the children are of age, it is normal for dwarven couples to go months or even years without seeing one another as they pursue their interests and hone their crafts)
This means your typical adventuring dwarf PC is almost certainly already a grandparent (or nearly so) by the time their adventuring career begins, even if they're only in the mid-to-late twenties and so has little concern for further romantic pursuits and and so comes off as rather dour and work-focused to non-dwarves. They also tend to have at least one piece of artifice; a bronze arm, a crystaline eye or eyes, a literal cast iron stomach; and will acquire more as they age. The eldest dwarves are little more than brains supported in a body of arcane artifice and terrifying foes as they have minds with a lifetime of experience and a body superior to that of any creature of flesh and blood.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 05, 2023, 03:13:30 AM
If something is original, maybe it's good maybe it's not. One more Tolkein clone, however, is guaranteed to bore me. I'll try the original every time at this point;.
That's fine if you like it, but do recognise that "maybe it's good maybe it's not" does not mean it has a 50% chance of being good — it's more like a
5% chance. So if you are doing something to amuse yourself, you might as well gamble on that 19:1 odds, but if you're trying to make a living, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
In a sense, people generally don't like Gnomes
exactly because they don't have an easy stereotype to point to: in some works they are magical forest creatures, in others they are steampunk comic relief, and yet in others they are evil masterminds. Elves and Dwarves, on the other hand, are pretty stable across works of fantasy, only varying in some details. And that stability of representation can cause people to bond with them as archetypes and be fond of them, in a way in which they cannot do with Gnomes (or Halflings, who are kind of a schizophrenic mix of good-natured English peasant and amoral kleptomaniac).
QuoteHah.
I've actually done something sort of along these lines. Dwarves that don't dwell in and around the mountains, "surface" dwarves (although it's something of a misnomer... Even in the mountains and highlands, plenty of dwarves live or work on the surface) tend to build earth-sheltered, stone houses, and have a sort of amish-inspired culture. Insular, clannish, humble, tradition-bound, hard working.
When the party members want to thank the kindly Gnomes for letting them sleep in their barn, by doing some of their chores for them...