Quote from: S'mon;1140944Ironically adventurers also seem the kind of characters who might have 'non traditional gender roles'. Paizo actually got it right back in 2007 Rise of the Runelords with a semi-open homosexual couple of ex-adventurers in Sandpoint, and local attitudes varying from bemused tolerance to disapproval. Paizo stuff up through 2010 or so is pretty sane. Of course this didn't last and 6 years later there were female half-orc paladins selling their family heirloom magic swords to buy potions of transgenderism for their m2f (or f2m, I forget) lover/spouse - with full approval of their quasi-Christian crusading church, who apparently saw this as a great use of resources while locked in a life and death struggle with the demon horde. Because why not, bigot.

That seriously made me laugh.

So, the last 3 or so pages seem to be, full acceptance of LGBTQ(no idea how many letters we are up to) lifestyle and world view, or you are not welcoming at the table.   It also seems, it has been fully demonstrated, that Jeremy has a CLEAR AGENDA with his position at WOTC.   So we can stop with semantics I think.  You can welcome or not welcome anyone you want IMO.  I play with friends and family only generally, now that my son plays, I would not take him to a table with strangers.  I can say, if a person has a religious belief they can not stop espousing during a relaxing time playing games at a table, I would not welcome them to play games.  These days, the AGENDA people have a religious fervor towards pushing their world view.  NO ONE who wants to push a world view is welcome to playing a game of fun, relaxing make believe with me.  Period.

   The best example of neutral game for me is GURPS and I guess SW behind that.   I can even say GURPS is so vanilla it almost becomes a weakness rather than a strength in many of their loose setting ideas.  But I think they do this because they want to leave the GM plenty of room to have the setting take whatever form he wants.  This is a good thing, but hurts them IMO with selling a setting on the flavor category.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1140921So you're bi-sexual, so what?

There's no such thing as mostly straight or mostly gay you're or you aren't.

Because IRL isn't a RPG

Well, I'm attracted to the feminine, Baily Jay and Blair White are more feminine than many biological women. Whether they have a penis or not doesn't matter to me. You're calling me bisexual, where as I've had Alphabet people tell me I'm straight. I'm not attracted to every Trans-woman for that matter either.. Sexuality is a spectrum... some Bi folks prefer one gender over the other. I like women, feminine, pretty women, whether they are trans or not. Given hardcore Alphabet people say this makes me straight, and you're saying this makes me Bi... the only conclusion I can draw is, I'm mostly straight, outside of some edge cases.

Re realistic vs. Woke depictions of homosexuality, I was reminded of this watching the series finale of Dark, where the closeted gay character whose wife no longer exists is now apparently dating his trailer park prostitute.

Just because you're free to be gay now doesn't mean you'd necessarily want to date your prostitute...

I can't believe I haven't mentioned ACKS in this thread. I'm slacking.

All of ACKS is definitely non-Woke, especially the Heroic Fantasy Handbook.

FYI, there's been a LA Gaymers Meetup for only the Alphabet soup squad for over a decade. I've gamed with many members over the years at conventions and game days. Like every other grouping of humans, there's the good, the bad and the ugly.

If those public Meetups exist, anyone who wants an XYZ-only group should feel free to run their own exclusive events.

Previously, I was not a fan of ANY division in the hobby, but 2020 has taught many lessons.

Now, I only want people who can sit down on time(-ish), have fun, share snacks and STFU about anything outside of the game.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140909It's not a Goal Post move it's a better clarifying of my position. As for not being welcome in the hobby, you literally have a fucking dude here who says He's against "The Homosexual Agenda" and doesn't support "Sodomists". Gay people are literally NOT welcome at his table. So maybe stop trying to focus so much on "Winning" this argument and take a moment to go... Gee, maybe the fact we literally have people who won't let gays at their table means we DO NEED the world's most popular RPG to openly say they support Gays, to make them feel more welcome in the Hobby...

I know for a fact that there are groups who play D&D that are not welcoming to Republicans or Evangelical Christians (including several of the current employees of WoTC).  Should the PHB include them as well, so that they can feel welcome?  Or are you only interested in welcoming certain people?  How do you choose?  And who are you to choose?

Quote from: RandyB;1141118I can't believe I haven't mentioned ACKS in this thread. I'm slacking.

All of ACKS is definitely non-Woke, especially the Heroic Fantasy Handbook.

Swords & Sorcery tends to the resolutely non-Woke. Though S&S settings also tend to lack the Tolkienesque "evil races of evil to kill" thing, they are much too individualistic for that.

I like everything by Rich Baker, never seen anything Woke in his excellent adventures & campaign settings.

Quote from: Naburimannu on July 16, 2020, 03:41:44 AM
I don't find 5e to be problematically woke.

Hahaha. Sorry I just had to comment. Haha.

Earthdawn. All the high fantasy you can shake a stick at.

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 20, 2020, 05:44:01 PM
Not every Fantasy World should be like this, but I expect it of Forgotten Realms. Look at it this way, D&D is now the Disney of RPGs.

People do look at it this way.  Which is why there's backlash against D&D.

Our favorite (other than our homebrew) is DwD Studios' BareBones Fantasy.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/107498/BareBones-Fantasy-Role-Playing-Game

It is relatively lightweight and has personality/moral-compasses to drive role-playing the character uniquely, with rewards for doing such. No metacurrency. Author/publisher is not woke and very apolitical. (Been following him on MeWe and other sources for over a decade.)

The simplicity and having the role-playing characteristics part of the character creation was really, really enjoyed by my players and made this our long-time favorite.

His science-fiction homage to Star Frontiers, Frontier Space, has metacurrency. When we play-tested the game, we totally forgot it even existed. IIRC, you use it to make Hollywood style actions doable or survivable, not to change reality arbitrarily.

Back to the topic, what about RuneQuest,and Tunnels & Trolls?

Confession I didn't read the whole thread but I'll put two of my favorites out. There are a lot of really good ones but adventurer conquerer king system from autarch. Great system while still being osr compatible. Second recommend is castles and crusades, said by the late Gary Gygax this is what second edition dnd should have been. The former will probably never go woke, and the latter tries not to make waves

I don't know how I missed it until now, but I recently discovered Beyond the Wall (and Other Adventures) and I am incredibly impressed with it.  It sort-of-does most of the stuff from my own B/X house rules (lifepath chargen, simplified classes (but with more options), 3e-type saving throws, slowly bleeding out <0 hp, etc), but better.  I do think that their multiclassing is too subjective, and prefer the 1e/2e way of doing it.  But the low-fantasy-YA-lit flavor of it is very compelling to me.  Being something of a filthy story gamer rather than a pure simulationist, I think the shared chargen and village-gen are pretty darned cool, and I look forward to seeing what emergent stories can be produced by this sandbox.

I look forward to exploring some of their other products too.  Their high-fantasy game...  What was it called, uh....  Through Sunken Lands, maybe?  It looks pretty neat as well, but I haven't really read it yet.

It does use masculine and feminine pronouns about equally, which I find slightly cringey from a purely grammatical perspective, but I haven't found anything really ridiculous in there yet.

Aside from that, there's always B/X D&D, one of it's retroclones, or your own homebrew.  There's no reason to always have to be playing the Newest Thing, imo.  The whole TSR library can be found, uh, out there on the net in the usual places.