TheRPGSite

1989 posed this great question on the Ditch WotC thread.

Quote from: 1989;1139811For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?

I'm taking the idea another step. For people seeking to replace WotC/Paizo fantasy, what do you recommend and why? Tell us about your favorite fantasy games from not-woke publishers.

For me, I'm finishing my homebrews, particularly my Not-Dark Sun RPG.

DriveThruRPG is overflowing with RPGs - new and old - because we truly live in the Golden Age of RPG with an overabundance of riches - even beyond the vast trove of the OSR.

Personally, I highly suggest Palladium Fantasy 1e to any fantasy RPG fans. It's a work of raw, unbridled creativity and love for RPGs that rocks in actual play (regardless of the system wonkiness). It usually sells for $20-$30 on eBay. Worth every dime.

And here's some FREE presents for you!

WARRIOR, ROGUE & MAGE (http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/)
It's a GURPS-lite fantasy with a ton of free supplements. THIS is my go-to whenever I have to deal with my deranged GURPS-loving friends :D.
http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/

EXEMPLARS & EIDOLONS (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons)
Sine Nomine/Kevin Crawford's free RPG that's Big Damn Hero Conan-esque fantasy via OSR-ish rules, but there's SO MUCH crazy goodness shoved into a tiny package that I'd didn't fully appreciate until I test drove it at the game table. Easily could run short Sword & Sorcery campaigns with this freebie.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons

MAZES & MINOTAURS (http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/)
Oh crap, is that damn Spinachcat is pimping M&M again? Yeah baby!!!
Its OSR-ish and after dozens of sessions, I'm totally sold on its awesomeness.
M&M delivers everything I want from a Greek mythic fantasy RPG (with a ton of free supplements).
And there's also a free Norse version called VALKYRIES & VIKINGS
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/

So what's your not-woke recommendation?

I mentioned it in the other thread, but both Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures and Sharp Swords & Sinister Spells (actually, all of Diogo Nogueira's games) have been both popular and successful at my table.

I'm way over due for running my own things anyway, and would probably be doing it even if none of the woke nonsense was happening.  But that doesn't help anyone else, seeing how my own stuff is barely into any kind of play test and unlikely to be something useful to another GM any time soon.

So what I'll run if my own things don't come together, in rough order:

- DCC
- BEMCI with domains at a little below name level or ACKS around level 7
- GURPS or Fantasy Hero (using 3E and 4E, respectively), but not wide open--rather, with a few character templates built to simplify life for the players and enhance the setting I have in mind.

As always, a bit of Toon for a light-hearted break.  Some day I might run a Star Wars parody game using the Toon engine.

Meh, to be honest I don't think there's a point recommending alternatives to D&D or PF if that's the game you actually want to play. Particularly if you like 5e, I don't think there's a game that does 5e quite like 5e does. And PF 2e is basically a splinter at this point, mixing elements of 3e and 5e without really being either of them. If you want to play something like PF 2e without playing PF 2e I'm not sure what your options are, other than homebrewing your own clone based off it.

Sometimes people want something in particular out of a game, and for me if I wanted to play something like D&D I'm not gonna play some OSR thing when I already hated Basic back when I started out in the hobby. I'm probably gonna play 5e, or some homebrewed monstrosity based on 3e and/or 5e.

I've been checking out Spheres of Power recently and Fantasy Craft as well (OK, I accidentally fell into some D&Dish not-D&D recommendations right there). I'd probably take elements of those next time I wanna play something like D&D. But how do I know when any of these games are gonna cave to the woke demands of an online mob?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1139851Some day I might run a Star Wars parody game using the Toon engine.

LEGO Star Wars: the RPG!!

That would rock with the right group.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1139862Meh, to be honest I don't think there's a point recommending alternatives to D&D or PF if that's the game you actually want to play.

Every time I see PF it takes me a few minutes to figure out that the person is talking about Pathfinder and not Palladium Fantasy. Usually I don't figure it out until after I've already responded with an answer or comment based on Palladium and I'm looking at the confused responses from people.

That being said I'm sure it will come as zero surprise that I fully agree with Spinachcat about Palladium Fantasy 1st ed. And if you are one of these people that prefer to read an entire book from a digital screen it is available as a PDF on Drivethru.

Quote from: Spinachcat;11398411989 posed this great question on the Ditch WotC thread.



I'm taking the idea another step. For people seeking to replace WotC/Paizo fantasy, what do you recommend and why? Tell us about your favorite fantasy games from not-woke publishers.

For me, I'm finishing my homebrews, particularly my Not-Dark Sun RPG.

DriveThruRPG is overflowing with RPGs - new and old - because we truly live in the Golden Age of RPG with an overabundance of riches - even beyond the vast trove of the OSR.

Personally, I highly suggest Palladium Fantasy 1e to any fantasy RPG fans. It's a work of raw, unbridled creativity and love for RPGs that rocks in actual play (regardless of the system wonkiness). It usually sells for $20-$30 on eBay. Worth every dime.

I own Palladium Fantasy Second Edition. Can you give a comparison to First Edition? (I've never used it.)

I agree that Palladium may be the last major publisher to go Woke. Kevin hasn't changed his Rifts system for something like 25 years. I doubt he is going to modify anything for the woke brigade in 2020. If I had to place a bet, I'd put my money on Kevin.

I saw Dead Reign PDFs on sale last week, and was thinking of picking up the lot of them (as shipping to Canada for hard copies is prohibitive).

This thread could be a useful resource for me in approximately 18 months.

1st Ed vs 2nd (in brief)
HP only vs SDC & HP
1 attack per round vs 2 just for being alive + combat training
Man at Arms careers have access to paired weapons (dual wielding) vs anyone can take the paired weapons skill
Different combat skill for each combat focused OCC (class) vs anyone can have any combat skill of choice (Mages wielding two long swords and skilled in martial arts making all non-magic classes pointless)
X number of spells per day (level of spell doesn't matter) vs X number of magic points (PPE) to spend on spells with each spell having it's own cost (1st level spells range from 1 to 6 points for example.
Lower combat bonuses (keeping armor more valuable) vs High combat bonuses (making it easy to bypass armor)
No stat altering skills vs large number of physical skill boosting stats and giving bonuses to combat

One thing that may trip up a new player is no matter your OCC (class) you only get 1d6 HP per level keeping fights pretty dangerous (2nd ed adds SDC which can with physical skills and racial bonuses easily add 100+ SDC, basically an extra HP pool to have to grind through).

Quote from: Spinachcat;1139841Recommend your favorite not-woke Fantasy RPG!

Still DragonQuest probably.

I still have a soft spot for Earthdawn. The edition mostly doesn't matter since most of them are so similar (with copy/paste text and even art), but I own a full set of the 3e books by RedBrick/Flaming Cobra from 2009 or so.

I have a soft spot for Brian Gleichman's Age of Heroes, mostly because I always had some reluctant admiration for the firmness of Brian's convictions back when he and I would occasionally debate on TBP. You can get AoH from lulu.com, I believe.

1e AD&D is awesomely non-woke. I find myself making it MORE politically correct - eg my Gnolls have strong confident female leaders. :D

Quote from: S'mon;11399431e AD&D is awesomely non-woke. I find myself making it MORE politically correct - eg my Gnolls have strong confident female leaders. :D

You know what surprised me recently? The pronouns used in various editions of D&D:

1974 OD&D: He
AD&D 1e: He or she
AD&D 2e: He (the book even provided a justification for why the generic masculine was the only way to write clearly ... surprise!)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1139889Still DragonQuest probably.

Interesting! Tell us more. What makes DragonQuest special? I've never played it.

Quote from: 1989;1139869I own Palladium Fantasy Second Edition. Can you give a comparison to First Edition? (I've never used it.)

I'd happily play a Palladium Fantasy 2e campaign, but 1e has a special raw magic. 2e was written to be more directly compatible with RIFTS which I don't think was a benefit.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1140033Interesting! Tell us more. What makes DragonQuest special? I've never played it.

Don't encourage us to talk about that, because you'll probably get me to start a thread.  And then you'll suck up all my limited free time talking about DQ.  Let's see if Shawn can give you the shorter version first before I get sucked into that ... :D

No surprise to anyone that I'd say Fantasy Craft. At least I can't remember any wokeness in it. d6 Fantasy also had a neat system, if memory serves. Always wanted to try it out sometime. And Earthdawn is an absolutely magical setting with a system that works pretty well, but can be a bit daunting in places. Lots to track, especially once tying strings to things gets involved(it makes sense in setting).

I'm sure someone will point out the error of my ways (and, quite frankly, I'd welcome it, along with examples), but we're still running strong with 3E/3.5, and don't really notice any wokeness from that system.  Perhaps we're just inured to it at this point (in which case, I do truly welcome examples of 3E/3.5's wokeness, or blatant examples in other d20 properties (but I'm already familiar with the Woke Venisonocracy of Blue Rose)).

The Arcanum.

Fits AD&D rules with simple rules. Better rules, like AC as armor reduction and a Perception stat.

You read the rules and get what you want ----

I don't find 5e to be problematically woke.

Quote from: Naburimannu;1140136I don't find 5e to be problematically woke.

PHB-DMG-MM really are not. Nor are the early campaign adventures. It only went full Woke when Jeremy Crawford got to turn FR into his Magical Realm with Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. Mearls is a weak left-liberal not an SJW.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1139841I'm taking the idea another step. For people seeking to replace WotC/Paizo fantasy, what do you recommend and why?

Agree with you on Palladium Fantasy: wonky, but great.

My go-tos include:

• Original D&D - If you want the original, and want a classic foundation on which to "make the game your own."
  
• 1e AD&D - If you want what I would consider to be the de facto standard for "*this* is D&D." If you can't acquire the original books, OSRIC is a fine stand-in (free PDF or the 400 pg. hardcover from Black Blade Publishing, which is only $26 -- an absolute steal).
  
• Stormbringer 1e - A flavorful spin using BRP in the Young Kingdoms. A cool take on magic/sorcery. Combat is less complex than RQ (e.g., no hit locations). Old enough that it is uninfected by any recent social movements.
  
• BRP Gold Book - A toolkit for the BRP system. You can roll your own BRP-based game/system with this and do just about anything with it.
  
• Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea - An AD&Dish retro-clone done very well. Cool subclasses. Cool swords-n-sorcery style setting. Cool art.
  

A little farther afield, some other games I appreciate or have had a blast with include:

• Rolemaster 2e - Probably not for everyone, but we had some great gaming with RM2 (mostly set in Middle Earth using I.C.E. supplements). If you go here, I'd advise sticking with the core rules and ignoring any temptation to include a lot from the Companion supplements.
  
• I.C.E. MERP - If you want "Rolemaster light" instead of full Rolemaster.
  
• Bushido - Another "may not be for everyone" game with quirky FGU rules, but they work really well and the system was perfect for the kind of "fantasy Japan" game I ran using it.
  
• Flashing Blades - Another FGU game, and one which I haven't run a full campaign with, but desperately want to. The combat system is very cool, and the rules for organizations and campaign play are rich and seem right up my alley.
  
• Dangerous Journeys: Mythus - If you can get past the weird terminology (which Gygax used to try and ward off legal issues) and the somewhat dark and hard-to-read presentation, this is a cool game. It's kind of like Advanced Advanced D&D...sorta. PCs start off pretty powerful (maybe equivalent to a 5th or 6th level D&D PC). The magic system is rich. It's a somewhat complex system, but in actual play it runs pretty smoothly (although you'll need to get the hang of it). This one is fun, but you kinda have to want it.
  

Also, Pundit's Lion & Dragon is a neat clone-style game. I confess I haven't run it as its own thing, but I've referenced and borrowed from it for my own homebrew D&D game (which is a bit more swords-n-sorcery, but also has some of that "medieval authentic" feel to it).

Quote from: S'mon;1140142PHB-DMG-MM really are not. Nor are the early campaign adventures. It only went full Woke when Jeremy Crawford got to turn FR into his Magical Realm with Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. Mearls is a weak left-liberal not an SJW.

Chris Perkins turned into a magic Unicorn somewhere along the line.

Quote from: Shasarak;1140244Chris Perkins turned into a magic Unicorn somewhere along the line.

I'd say the PHB was woke enough, pushing it's homosexuality and transgender agenda.

Quote from: Shasarak;1140244Chris Perkins turned into a magic Unicorn somewhere along the line.

Yes, I don't know how anyone could tell if he were woke or not.  He's always been a strange bird when it comes to RPG choices.  Not necessarily good or bad, just off, like a Star Trek character that had a transporter accident and is now 5% out of phase with reality.  He has an RPG Uncanny Valley Aura that he take everywhere he goes.  So magic unicorn works as well as anything else.

I am not being ironic

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I highly recommend anything from Thomas Denmark at Night Owl Workshop. He's put out some really great little OSR games - Warriors of the Red Planet (John Carter of Mars), Colonial Troopers (Starship Troopers/Colonial Marines), Raiders of the Lost Artifacts (Indiana Jones), Guardians (superheroes), and Freebooters (a narrative game about newly liberated bootmakers). All are very well thought out, designed, and presented, and very reasonably priced.

Quote from: S'mon;11399431e AD&D is awesomely non-woke. I find myself making it MORE politically correct - eg my Gnolls have strong confident female leaders. :D

Hilarious and true (non-woke enough to require a disclaimer, warning the hapless purchaser)
Another vote for 1e from me.

Along the same lines, I really like the material from BRW Games.
I find some of their enhancements to 1e style interesting and well done.
A Curious Volume of Forgotten Lore:  Can be used in tandem with 1e or,
Adventures Dark and Deep as standalone:

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1140042Don't encourage us to talk about that, because you'll probably get me to start a thread.  And then you'll suck up all my limited free time talking about DQ.  Let's see if Shawn can give you the shorter version first before I get sucked into that ... :D

I used to own the 2nd edition softcover white book.  That guy looked just so chuffed holding that severed dragon's head.
Wish finding print copy wasn't so difficult and/or expensive.
Now I want to see that standalone description thread you threatened us with as I vaguely remember the combat system being quite good.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1140089The Arcanum.

Fits AD&D rules with simple rules. Better rules, like AC as armor reduction and a Perception stat.

You read the rules and get what you want ----

Unfortunately, missed the 30th Anniversary Kickstarter and sort of forgot about it.
As I like AD&D, will investigate further as it seems there is a POD option
Thanks for reminding me.

Quote from: 1989;1140261I'd say the PHB was woke enough, pushing it's homosexuality and transgender agenda.

The 5e Player's Handbook has a homosexual and transgender agenda?

Really? This is news to me.

Quote from: S'mon;1140142PHB-DMG-MM really are not. Nor are the early campaign adventures. It only went full Woke when Jeremy Crawford got to turn FR into his Magical Realm with Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. Mearls is a weak left-liberal not an SJW.

Hmmm, I dunno. It was Mearls who did the infamous tweet where he fired all of us.

Quote from: 1989;1140261I'd say the PHB was woke enough, pushing it's homosexuality and transgender agenda.

It didn't have an overt agenda, but you could see it looming close on the horizon with its hamfisted way of saying that you would play whatever you wanted. Anyone who has played TTRPGs for any length of time already knows that you can play whatever you want, be it race or sex or sexual preference, so making that obvious statement in the book is overkill. Regardless of the lies being told about gaming in the 70s and 80s, most people didn't care unless you were playing a character that was different just to be a weird asshole about it at the table.

Quote from: jeff37923;1140774It didn't have an overt agenda, but you could see it looming close on the horizon with its hamfisted way of saying that you would play whatever you wanted. Anyone who has played TTRPGs for any length of time already knows that you can play whatever you want, be it race or sex or sexual preference, so making that obvious statement in the book is overkill. Regardless of the lies being told about gaming in the 70s and 80s, most people didn't care unless you were playing a character that was different just to be a weird asshole about it at the table.

There was no "Homosexual and trans agenda" in the players Handbook. There was a boiler plate hamfisted sidebar to cover asses.

There's a lot of woke garbage in the world, but the players Handbook is not it.

Acknowledging gay and trans people exist is not "an agenda".

Quote from: jeff37923;1140774Anyone who has played TTRPGs for any length of time already knows that you can play whatever you want, be it race or sex or sexual preference, so making that obvious statement in the book is overkill.

5e is not only for those that have previously played RPGs; for many it will likely be their first (and possibly only) RPG.

Quote from: HappyDaze;11407835e is not only for those that have previously played RPGs; for many it will likely be their first (and possibly only) RPG.

If 5e is their only TTRPG, then it is because of the garbage woke culture that surrounds it turned them off of the hobby.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1140761Along the same lines, I really like the material from BRW Games.
I find some of their enhancements to 1e style interesting and well done.
A Curious Volume of Forgotten Lore:  Can be used in tandem with 1e or,
Adventures Dark and Deep as standalone:

I had forgotten about those. And I just bought A Curious Volume of Forgotten Lore as supplemental options for 1e.

Agree - not-woke.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140776There was no "Homosexual and trans agenda" in the players Handbook. There was a boiler plate hamfisted sidebar to cover asses.

There's a lot of woke garbage in the world, but the players Handbook is not it.

Acknowledging gay and trans people exist is not "an agenda".

I don't believe in transgenderism. I won't use the pronouns they wish for me to use. I don't believe in celebrating mental illness or sodomy.

I don't want sodomy forced into every adventure I could potentially buy as is now the official policy at WotC.

It is very much an agenda -- an agenda to get society to tolerate, accept, and now celebrate. This is not news to anyone, certainly not to anyone old enough to be a parent.

Quote from: jeff37923;1140785If 5e is their only TTRPG, then it is because of the garbage woke culture that surrounds it turned them off of the hobby.

I've met plenty of people that are casual gamers and have only played D&D (plus video games, card games, and non-TTRPGs). This had nothing to do with the woke culture, just other competing passtimes.

Quote from: 1989;1140835I don't believe in transgenderism. I won't use the pronouns they wish for me to use. I don't believe in celebrating mental illness or sodomy.

I don't want sodomy forced into every adventure I could potentially buy as is now the official policy at WotC.

It is very much an agenda -- an agenda to get society to tolerate, accept, and now celebrate. This is not news to anyone, certainly not to anyone old enough to be a parent.

In this case, I'm very happy you're not being catered to. If you think a simple sidebar that says "Anyone can play this game with no judgement" is part of a Gay and Transgender agenda... then if I could make every rpg in the world have a side bar with that... I would, simply because it would make you uncomfortable.

Quote from: jeff37923;1140785If 5e is their only TTRPG, then it is because of the garbage woke culture that surrounds it turned them off of the hobby.

Jeff, this is completely disingenuous and you know it. 5E is their first RPG because the current edition of D&D is almost everyone's first RPG. I'm one of the rare exceptions because I got picked up at Whitewolf's zeitgeist in the early 90s...and then my 2nd RPG was Dungeons and Dragons.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140843In this case, I'm very happy you're not being catered to. If you think a simple sidebar that says "Anyone can play this game with no judgement" is part of a Gay and Transgender agenda... then if I could make every rpg in the world have a side bar with that... I would, simply because it would make you uncomfortable.

Except that:

- it wasn't a sidebar
- that wasn't what it said
- the agenda is now in every adventure from WotC

In the 5e Player's Handbook (and basic rules pdf), we have transgenderism and homosexuality being pushed:

https://www.themarysue.com/basic-rules-dnd/

"You can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your
character does or does not conform to the broader culture's expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior.
For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to
the surface."

"You don't need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen
as androgynous, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon's image. You could also play
a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female
dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character's sexual orientation is for you to decide."

Yes, that's right, little Billy. You can be a transgender girl -- if you feel like you are one -- or gay, too! It's okay! Celebrate it!

But they didn't stop there. They had to makes sure that every D&D adventure would now include homosexual NPCs:

https://kotaku.com/dungeons-dragons-...eer-1798401117

Jeremy is gay. Some of his family members are transgender.

"As we sat together at Gen Con in Indianapolis this weekend talking Dungeons & Dragons, the game's lead rules developer Jeremy Crawford motioned towards a copy of the Player's Handbook resting on the table between us. "I wasn't about to have this book go out and not acknowledge that people like me exist," he said.

"They'll meet the 52-year-old wheat farmer Thelbin Osstra, his husband Brynn, and Brynn's adopted nephew Broland."

"Crawford told me that publisher Wizards of the Coast is making D&D more gay, and why that's a great thing.

"What was a scattering of queer characters throughout the years formalized into a guiding principle with 2016's Curse of Strahd, an adventure that has players take down the vampire Count Strahd. Every adventure since Curse of Strahd has included one or several queer characters, and Crawford assured Kotaku that this will be a constant into future adventures: "Ever since we brought our adventure design fully back in-house," he said, "all of our new adventures contain LGBT characters."[/B]

If you don't agree with this, then Mike Mearls has this to say:

"I'm not worried about offending bigots - quite the opposite, in fact."

So, you are a bigot.

And now . . . you are a racist, as well!

That's right folks: agree with us, or you are a bigot and a racist. Isn't tolerance lovely, as long as we tolerate only the viewpoints that I like? If you don't agree with me, then I don't have to tolerate you! But you must tolerate me! If you are uncomfortable, that's fine! But I must be made to feel comfortable!

This is the agenda: accept homosexuality and transgenderism. Accept it, and celebrate it -- because it's "a great thing." And if you don't think it's "a great thing", then you are "a bigot." And that is the agenda that is shown clearly the case in WotC's products.

If you cannot see how that is pushing an agenda, you are being disingenuous.

I don't mind gay characters in fantasy settings. I kinda like it in some settings as a nod to realism. I do object to fantasy settings having universal cultural norms of 2018 Seattle. "52-year-old wheat farmer Thelbin Osstra, his husband Brynn, and Brynn's adopted nephew Broland" in a pseudo-medieval setting just has the Reek of Wrongness (https://the-true-tropes.fandom.com/wiki/Evil_Smells_Bad).

Quote from: Orphan81;1140844Jeff, this is completely disingenuous and you know it.

No, this has been my experience with members of the Adventurer's League, WotC fans, and D&D 5e writers/contributors.

Quote from: Orphan81;11408445e is their first RPG because the current edition of D&D is almost everyone's first RPG. I'm one of the rare exceptions because I got picked up at Whitewolf's zeitgeist in the early 90s...and then my 2nd RPG was Dungeons and Dragons.

And if that first experience has a bunch of associated woke bullshit attached to it, which D&D 5e does, then that can turn new people off of gaming all-together.

Quote from: S'mon;1140851I don't mind gay characters in fantasy settings. I kinda like it in some settings as a nod to realism. I do object to fantasy settings having universal cultural norms of 2018 Seattle. "52-year-old wheat farmer Thelbin Osstra, his husband Brynn, and Brynn's adopted nephew Broland" in a pseudo-medieval setting just has the Reek of Wrongness (https://the-true-tropes.fandom.com/wiki/Evil_Smells_Bad).

Seriously, a gay couple in a pseudo-medieval or ancient world likely be strictly an urban thing (like a wealthy merchant or nobleman taking a favored male sex slave), or maybe part of a troupe of performers or something like that. Even a gladiator, with no long term prospects and no idea whether he'll live or die in the arena, taking another male slave as a lover to pass the time would make more sense.

But farmers traditionally marry someone of the opposite sex and have a lot of kids, cuz farming requires a lot of hands, particularly in a pre-industrialized world. The notion of a gay farmer, his husband and their adoptive son is such a privileged urbanite modern world take, it seems completely divorced from real world needs. It's like they randomly decided to make them farmers just because "why not (you bigot!)?"

But the real offense here is:

QuoteFor example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface.

A male drow cleric is either a lowly acolyte unable to ever advance in the hierarchy of the priesthood of Lolth or a heretical worshiper of a rival deity in danger of being hunted down and sacrificed to the Spider Queen. There is no "defiance" of traditional gender roles here. There is only knowing his place at the bottom of the hierarchy or unlawful religious practices not allowed to ANYONE in drow society, regardless of what hangs or doesn't between their legs. And if the PC truly is a spurned priest of Lolth leaving traditional drow society behind to worship Lolth his way, is that really someone you want in your party? :rolleyes:

Also, while we're at it, just cuz the implication here bugs me:

QuoteJeremy Crawford motioned towards a copy of the Player's Handbook resting on the table between us. "I wasn't about to have this book go out and not acknowledge that people like me exist," he said.

WTF does this have to do with RPGs? I mean, does the PHB of any edition of D&D acknowledge the existence of straight people or delve into character relationships at all? What about dog owners? They barely even mention white people or left handed people at all. And there's no mention of Hispanics, ever. Does that mean I've been spurned in some way?

None of this is relevant to the purpose of an RPG rule book. This is such a self-important attitude to have--that a rule book is somehow obliged to acknowledge your personal existence, like it matters. Like you wouldn't be able to play a Capricorn or a Virgo unless the book specifically told you you're allowed (actually that one would make sense, since astrological signs are bound to be different in a fantasy world not based on Earth).

Quote from: 1989;1140849If you cannot see how that is pushing an agenda, you are being disingenuous.

Yes, Billy, who could very well be Gay... can play a gay character now. This is only a problem if you're a Homophobe. You don't have to agree with the extreme left when it comes to promoting Drag queen kids, or giving hormones to 8 year olds... but accepting gay and transgender people are real and not demonizing them is not an agenda.. It's called being a decent human being.

I remember back in the old days of roleplaying when there was just an empty space where you could write your characters sex.

Ah, those racist bigoted good times.

Quote from: S'mon;1140851I don't mind gay characters in fantasy settings. I kinda like it in some settings as a nod to realism. I do object to fantasy settings having universal cultural norms of 2018 Seattle. "52-year-old wheat farmer Thelbin Osstra, his husband Brynn, and Brynn's adopted nephew Broland" in a pseudo-medieval setting just has the Reek of Wrongness (https://the-true-tropes.fandom.com/wiki/Evil_Smells_Bad).

Not every Fantasy World should be like this, but I expect it of Forgotten Realms. Look at it this way, D&D is now the Disney of RPGs. It went through it's "Attitude era" back in the early 00s with 3rd edition. Now as the face of the Hobby it's conforming to what it believes the mainstream expects of it. I do believe it's going too far, bending over backwards with removing racial bonuses and getting rid of alignement and getting rid of the notion of inherently evil races...

But before all that shit started, I expected the modern day Seattle Forgotten Realms..and that's okay! There *SHOULD* be Fantasy settings that are like that. Because some people DO want to go on Fantasy romps without the baggage associated with the ignorant minded people of the medevil world.

Just as, there should also be settings where it's blood, and filth, and the villagers will try to burn you as a witch if they see any hint of magic come from you. We can have both. Let D&D be the kiddy safe, Media approved souless face of the Industry. It can tank all the bad shit and allow better shit to come up in it's place. It will crash and burn like it did eventually with 2nd edition, and rise like a Phoenix once more and throw off it's shackles... until the next Moral panic comes along.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140870Just as, there should also be settings where it's blood, and filth, and the villagers will try to burn you as a witch if they see any hint of magic come from you.

but there's no support for these settings

Quote from: Slambo;1140875but there's no support for these settings

WFRP?

Quote from: Slambo;1140875but there's no support for these settings

There's plenty of support for these settings, the entire OSR is practically made up of these settings. You also have Shadow of the Demon Lord, WFRP, Zweihander and others that capture this. If you're expecting official Wizards of the Coast support, then no, but D&D hasn't made a setting like that since... the 80s?

Blue Rose exists.

Warhammer exists.

We don't need to make Blue Rose look more like Warhammer, and we don't need Warhammer to look more like Blue Rose without losing what makes those settings unique. Feel free to do *anything* you want at your table.

The reality is it has nothing to do with representation - it has to do with forcing other people to accept what other people want in established games at their tables by fiat, with tacit implication if you don't, you'll be ostracized for not feeling obliged to accept these elements (and secretly they believe you do not accept THEM as people).

But they've already laid down their cards. If you don't bend the knee, you're not welcome and they don't want your patronage - and that's just the start, you need to be demonized and shamed for not buying into their issues.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140879There's plenty of support for these settings, the entire OSR is practically made up of these settings. You also have Shadow of the Demon Lord, WFRP, Zweihander and others that capture this. If you're expecting official Wizards of the Coast support, then no, but D&D hasn't made a setting like that since... the 80s?

My bad i thought we were talking specifically about DnD.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140865Yes, Billy, who could very well be Gay... can play a gay character now. This is only a problem if you're a Homophobe. You don't have to agree with the extreme left when it comes to promoting Drag queen kids, or giving hormones to 8 year olds... but accepting gay and transgender people are real and not demonizing them is not an agenda.. It's called being a decent human being.

I'm Mexican, a Maya, male and straight, I have never felt the need to play as a Maya or a Mexican, I have played as women and men, don't ever remember playing as a gay, but then again I play to go adventuring on the game world, not to act out some soap opera.

I'm also on the autistic spectrum and wear glasses since age 15, why would I want to play as an autistic four eyed nerd?

And to top it all... When exactly (and I want the rules that explicitly forbade it) was that Billy couldn't play as a gay if he so choose?

Only way for that to be true would be up to the GM, and Billy could go find a different group.

I was dirt poor and my introduction to RPGs was WEG Star Wars by my very gay (and rich) cousin. I don't ever remember him playing as a gay man, he always choose either the more macho man of macho men or the more feminine woman.

I don't really understand the whole and sexuality thing... I mean, I don't really see the relevance of bleating on about it in core rule books. And I don't seem to remember, ever having to let everyone at the table know what my sexuality my character was. Surely that would come out in the game, in downtime if necessary? And I don't ever recall any game saying that you 'couldn't' play a gay character or a trans person. I honestly think that these SJWs make their own mental prisons and bogymen.

Back in the day, it seemed we had a bit more initiative and played the games we wanted to play. Nobody gave a shit about what anyone else thought or said (and I still don't tbh).

Quote from: Orphan81;1140865Yes, Billy, who could very well be Gay... can play a gay character now.

Now?

Greetings!

Of course, anyone that is rational can see that WOTC's policies--as pronounced by Jeremy Crawford--is filled with an agenda. Why does the official Player's Handbook go on to remind everyone that they can be whatever gender they want, or whatever sexuality they want?--they do so because it is an agenda, and a genuflection to the woke, SJW mob.

Everyone has always been free to play whatever kind of character they want. This is something everyone knew when I was 10 years old. We could play humans, elves, dwarves, half orcs, wolf people, and all sorts of mythical races and animal people, whether male or female.

There is no need to have hamfisted "reminders" detailing all the different possible gender and sexuality choices your character can embrace. That is not important to normal gamers wanting to play a normal game of D&D where they explore dungeons and kill orcs.

No, see, the woke SJW mobs aren't interested in that. They want a drama-filled soap-opera game where the game is not centered on heroic fantasy adventure--no, their focus is on exploring their sexual identity, their sexual adventures, and how they deal with oppression in society. Everything revolves around their woke SJW identity, their woke SJW experiences, their woke SJW adventures being alternately oppressed or celebrated in the fictional game world. It's a circus parade of narcissism.

That is how the table is set--and that is how these SJW morons shriek and chant about it online at Twitter and elsewhere. THEIR game revolves around woke, SJW oppression Olympics, and yours must revolve around it as well! That's why SJW BS is choking and gagging through every product WOTC produces.

And some people *wonder* why many other people find such SJW bloviating and agenda-pushing to be annoying, and offensive? And to add insult to injury, if you don't want to be choked and preached at with SJW BS--you must be a bigot and a racist! Of course! Open your mouth, and swallow it all down good!

I note that OSRIC and AD&D don't try and pour this SJW jello down your throat. AD&D and OSRIC are my favourite non-woke fantasy RPG's. That's also because AD&D is actually about gaming--heroic fantasy gaming in particular--and not about sitting around crying about how special your SJW character is, or forcing the whole table to center the game on SJW drama and identity oppression Olympics.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Jesus Christ, Sometimes I wonder if I'd rather be dealing with watching the Big Purple twist themselves into knots over running Superhero games in the current Political Climate... or Deal with a bunch of Grognards who are literally upset it specifically mentions you can be Gay in the Player's Handbook.

God Damn you guys... I prefer the Freedom of Speech here, but you make it hard sometimes.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1140884I'm Mexican, a Maya, male and straight, I have never felt the need to play as a Maya or a Mexican, I have played as women and men, don't ever remember playing as a gay, but then again I play to go adventuring on the game world, not to act out some soap opera.

I'm also on the autistic spectrum and wear glasses since age 15, why would I want to play as an autistic four eyed nerd?

And to top it all... When exactly (and I want the rules that explicitly forbade it) was that Billy couldn't play as a gay if he so choose?

Only way for that to be true would be up to the GM, and Billy could go find a different group.

I was dirt poor and my introduction to RPGs was WEG Star Wars by my very gay (and rich) cousin. I don't ever remember him playing as a gay man, he always choose either the more macho man of macho men or the more feminine woman.

I'm a mostly straight white male. The very few times I RP as opposed to Running, I tend to play mostly straight white males. It's not the point of saying Billy is Gay so you can be Gay now, so much as making Gay Billy feel welcome by saying, "Hey, if you're Gay that's cool, we accept Gay people.."

And if this thread has taught me anything, it's that some people in this very Thread DON'T accept gay people. So I'm very glad that sidebar is there now.

Edit: And as for not playing a Soap Opera, some of us love to have Soap Operas in our Adventures.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140906I'm a mostly straight white male. The very few times I RP as opposed to Running, I tend to play mostly straight white males. It's not the point of saying Billy is Gay so you can be Gay now, so much as making Gay Billy feel welcome by saying, "Hey, if you're Gay that's cool, we accept Gay people.."

And if this thread has taught me anything, it's that some people in this very Thread DON'T accept gay people. So I'm very glad that sidebar is there now.

Edit: And as for not playing a Soap Opera, some of us love to have Soap Operas in our Adventures.

Nice goalpost moving there champ, so now it's not that Billy can NOW play a gay character if he wishes but to make him feel welcome...

Next is you conflating a part with the whole, nice try but no dice, you're talking with me not "some people".

Sure, I bet you could always find someone like that if you searched hard enough, and in an internet Forum where you're anonymous and has free speech? A little bit easier. But here's the thing, now you're claiming there was ever a time where Billy wouldn't be welcome in the hobby, just as false as your previous claim about him NOW being able to play as a gay man.

Enjoy your soap opera then, just don't push to make all the games soap opera by design. Or to ban from the hobby those of us who don't want or like that.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140905Jesus Christ, Sometimes I wonder if I'd rather be dealing with watching the Big Purple twist themselves into knots over running Superhero games in the current Political Climate... or Deal with a bunch of Grognards who are literally upset it specifically mentions you can be Gay in the Player's Handbook.

God Damn you guys... I prefer the Freedom of Speech here, but you make it hard sometimes.

If you as much as wish people weren't able to express those opinions you don't agree with...

You're not for Free Speech.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1140907Nice goalpost moving there champ, so now it's not that Billy can NOW play a gay character if he wishes but to make him feel welcome...

Next is you conflating a part with the whole, nice try but no dice, you're talking with me not "some people".

Sure, I bet you could always find someone like that if you searched hard enough, and in an internet Forum where you're anonymous and has free speech? A little bit easier. But here's the thing, now you're claiming there was ever a time where Billy wouldn't be welcome in the hobby, just as false as your previous claim about him NOW being able to play as a gay man.

Enjoy your soap opera then, just don't push to make all the games soap opera by design. Or to ban from the hobby those of us who don't want or like that.

It's not a Goal Post move it's a better clarifying of my position. As for not being welcome in the hobby, you literally have a fucking dude here who says He's against "The Homosexual Agenda" and doesn't support "Sodomists". Gay people are literally NOT welcome at his table. So maybe stop trying to focus so much on "Winning" this argument and take a moment to go... Gee, maybe the fact we literally have people who won't let gays at their table means we DO NEED the world's most popular RPG to openly say they support Gays, to make them feel more welcome in the Hobby..

Or you know, we can let Forum user "1989" be the Hobby ambassador and see all the good will he pulls us in.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140906And if this thread has taught me anything, it's that some people in this very Thread DON'T accept gay people. So I'm very glad that sidebar is there now.

Being Gay is pretty far down the check list of things I judge people about before they can play in my game.

To paraphrase Kyle, you are much more likely to be judged on if you bring snacks or not.  Saying that, turning up in ass-less chaps would be a good way of being booted toot sweet.

Quote from: Shasarak;1140911Being Gay is pretty far down the check list of things I judge people about before they can play in my game.

To paraphrase Kyle, you are much more likely to be judged on if you bring snacks or not.  Saying that, turning up in ass-less chaps would be a good way of being booted toot sweet.

I know there's peeps here who have no problem with Gay folks... but then we have some in this thread who blatantly said they don't support them.. and others who act like a paragraph in the player's handbook is an assault on their very heterosexuality.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140909It's not a Goal Post move it's a better clarifying of my position. As for not being welcome in the hobby, you literally have a fucking dude here who says He's against "The Homosexual Agenda" and doesn't support "Sodomists". Gay people are literally NOT welcome at his table. So maybe stop trying to focus so much on "Winning" this argument and take a moment to go... Gee, maybe the fact we literally have people who won't let gays at their table means we DO NEED the world's most popular RPG to openly say they support Gays, to make them feel more welcome in the Hobby..

Or you know, we can let Forum user "1989" be the Hobby ambassador and see all the good will he pulls us in.

Once again, you overreach.

They can game with me, no problem. I will give them the same courtesy that I give anyone else. I don't agree with a lot of things. You can game with me even if I don't see eye to eye with you. Just don't tell me that I'm a bigot for not supporting your point of view. And don't try to cancel my games or put disclaimers on them because you feel they are problematic for you for whatever reason. Don't tread on me. That's what the Americans say, right?

Quote from: Orphan81;1140906I'm a mostly straight white male.

Do what now?  That's like almost pregnant... how many d*cks do you suck to be 'mostly' straight?  :D LOL

QuoteEdit: And as for not playing a Soap Opera, some of us love to have Soap Operas in our Adventures.

The problem with sex (not sexuality)/romance/relationships around the table is it inevitably 'splits the party' and either leaves four or five players twiddling their thumbs, or sometimes squicked out.  Handwave, fade to black, group gets back together and ADVENTURE!

Quote from: LiferGamer;1140914Do what now?  That's like almost pregnant... how many d*cks do you suck to be 'mostly' straight?  :D LOL
!

I'm just saying, Blair White and Bailey Jay.... I wouldn't turn either of them down.

Greetings!

I love the game of Chess. I have played the game of Chess with many different people, men and women alike. No one cares if you as a Chess player, are heterosexual, or gay. No one cares. What does being gay have to do with playing the game of Chess? Not a damned thing.

I have also played D&D with many different people, men and women alike, heterosexuals and gays as well. What does being gay have to do with playing the game? Not a damned thing. If you are white, Hispanic, black, Asian, or some crazy mix of all of that--why is that important? It isn't important, and has nothing to do with playing the game. Pick your dice up, and roll! Play some crazy character.

But you see, all his SJW oppression Olympics BS has everything to do with gaming if you are attempting to push an agenda, and pour SJW Kool Aid down people's throats.

SJW's like to scream and chant about identity politics and being woke--everything must revolve around that agenda, or you must be a racist and bigot. Normal people do not go around obsessed with identity politics, and worried about what flavour of ice cream you like.

When playing a game of Chess, no one is concerned if your heterosexual or gay. It is irrelevant. D&D is a game, as well. Your gender preferences and identity politics are irrelevant. Such political and ideological identity has nothing to do with Chess, and doesn't have anything to do with D&D. If you are interested in actually playing the game, it has nothing to do with doing so. If, on the other hand, you are an SJW interested in pushing a political ideology, then that is the only thing that matters--pushing the SJW agenda.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Orphan81;1140909It's not a Goal Post move it's a better clarifying of my position. As for not being welcome in the hobby, you literally have a fucking dude here who says He's against "The Homosexual Agenda" and doesn't support "Sodomists". Gay people are literally NOT welcome at his table. So maybe stop trying to focus so much on "Winning" this argument and take a moment to go... Gee, maybe the fact we literally have people who won't let gays at their table means we DO NEED the world's most popular RPG to openly say they support Gays, to make them feel more welcome in the Hobby..

Or you know, we can let Forum user "1989" be the Hobby ambassador and see all the good will he pulls us in.

So, ONE guy speaks for all of us.

Tell me does that apply universally? The #Ki11A11Men feminists speak for ALL feminists?

What about the Biological sex not real TransActivists? Do they speak for Blaire White?

And the BLM people crying how white people are genetically defective? Do they speak for all BLM or black people?

Edited to add:

Quote from: 1989;1140913Once again, you overreach.

They can game with me, no problem. I will give them the same courtesy that I give anyone else. I don't agree with a lot of things. You can game with me even if I don't see eye to eye with you. Just don't tell me that I'm a bigot for not supporting your point of view. And don't try to cancel my games or put disclaimers on them because you feel they are problematic for you for whatever reason. Don't tread on me. That's what the Americans say, right?

So your bogeyman isn't real, now what?

Quote from: Orphan81;1140916I'm just saying, Blair White and Bailey Jay.... I wouldn't turn either of them down.

So you're bi-sexual, so what?

There's no such thing as mostly straight or mostly gay you're or you aren't.

Because IRL isn't a RPG

Quote from: VisionStorm;1140863Seriously, a gay couple in a pseudo-medieval or ancient world likely be strictly an urban thing (like a wealthy merchant or nobleman taking a favored male sex slave), or maybe part of a troupe of performers or something like that. Even a gladiator, with no long term prospects and no idea whether he'll live or die in the arena, taking another male slave as a lover to pass the time would make more sense.

But farmers traditionally marry someone of the opposite sex and have a lot of kids, cuz farming requires a lot of hands, particularly in a pre-industrialized world. The notion of a gay farmer, his husband and their adoptive son is such a privileged urbanite modern world take, it seems completely divorced from real world needs. It's like they randomly decided to make them farmers just because "why not (you bigot!)?"

Ironically adventurers also seem the kind of characters who might have 'non traditional gender roles'. Paizo actually got it right back in 2007 Rise of the Runelords with a semi-open homosexual couple of ex-adventurers in Sandpoint, and local attitudes varying from bemused tolerance to disapproval. Paizo stuff up through 2010 or so is pretty sane. Of course this didn't last and 6 years later there were female half-orc paladins selling their family heirloom magic swords to buy potions of transgenderism for their m2f (or f2m, I forget) lover/spouse - with full approval of their quasi-Christian crusading church, who apparently saw this as a great use of resources while locked in a life and death struggle with the demon horde. Because why not, bigot.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140870But before all that shit started, I expected the modern day Seattle Forgotten Realms..and that's okay! There *SHOULD* be Fantasy settings that are like that. Because some people DO want to go on Fantasy romps without the baggage associated with the ignorant minded people of the medevil world.

I like my Forgotten Realms like 1970s Vancouver, as God and Greenwood intended. :p

There are homosexual couples in my FR campaigns - I made three of the canon 2008 4e FRCS Loudwater PCs homosexual, two gays (the local wizard & cleric) and Lady Moonfire a lesbian. It's normally tolerated, especially in Elf-influenced areas such as the Western Heartlands. But even a gay male farmer is either going to marry and have a bunch of kids, or he'll be the unmarried uncle who's close personal friends with Sam in the village.

I don't believe Jeremy Crawford's Magical Realm reflects mainstream societal norms even in 2020 Anglosphere countries - go to a farming region and see how many openly gay farmers you can find. You may find a couple retired lesbian academics with five sheep and twelve cats.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140906I'm a mostly straight white male. The very few times I RP as opposed to Running, I tend to play mostly straight white males. It's not the point of saying Billy is Gay so you can be Gay now, so much as making Gay Billy feel welcome by saying, "Hey, if you're Gay that's cool, we accept Gay people.."

I've had a ton of lesbian players and a few gay players. Their being welcome at my table is completely orthogonal to the cultural norms of the fantasy setting they play in.

A friend of mine is gay and plays a variety of PCs IMCs, his longest running PC was a very straight Conanesque barbarian, but he also plays gay male characters and female characters. His favourite game is 1e AD&D. His favourite setting is the Wilderlands. He would never demand the setting be changed to suit his bedroom preferences. He treats my interest in female mammary organs with amused tolerance. :D

Quote from: S'mon;1140948I've had a ton of lesbian players and a few gay players. Their being welcome at my table is completely orthogonal to the cultural norms of the fantasy setting they play in.

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! I run my campaigns the same way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Crusader X;1140888Now?

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Quote from: S'mon;1140944Ironically adventurers also seem the kind of characters who might have 'non traditional gender roles'. Paizo actually got it right back in 2007 Rise of the Runelords with a semi-open homosexual couple of ex-adventurers in Sandpoint, and local attitudes varying from bemused tolerance to disapproval. Paizo stuff up through 2010 or so is pretty sane. Of course this didn't last and 6 years later there were female half-orc paladins selling their family heirloom magic swords to buy potions of transgenderism for their m2f (or f2m, I forget) lover/spouse - with full approval of their quasi-Christian crusading church, who apparently saw this as a great use of resources while locked in a life and death struggle with the demon horde. Because why not, bigot.

Yeah, I tend to think of adventurers as socially being kinda like shamans in a certain way--not in the sense of taking shamanic roles, but in the sense that in a lot of cultures shamans were allowed certain eccentricities and permissiveness that don't apply to the rest of the community, because they serve a special role in society. Similarly, adventurers, living at the edge of society, often risking their lives for fame or glory, or to aid communities by getting rid of monsters (much like a shaman might get rid of evil spirits), are exempt from standard social norms and allowed certain indulgences without being required to fulfill the same obligations expected of common folk (like having kids). After all, they could take out the town guards and raze the entire town if they wanted to anyways, so better not get on their bad side.

Quote from: S'mon;1140946I like my Forgotten Realms like 1970s Vancouver, as God and Greenwood intended. :p

There are homosexual couples in my FR campaigns - I made three of the canon 2008 4e FRCS Loudwater PCs homosexual, two gays (the local wizard & cleric) and Lady Moonfire a lesbian. It's normally tolerated, especially in Elf-influenced areas such as the Western Heartlands. But even a gay male farmer is either going to marry and have a bunch of kids, or he'll be the unmarried uncle who's close personal friends with Sam in the village.

I don't believe Jeremy Crawford's Magical Realm reflects mainstream societal norms even in 2020 Anglosphere countries - go to a farming region and see how many openly gay farmers you can find. You may find a couple retired lesbian academics with five sheep and twelve cats.

Pretty much. I also tend to think of elves as being disproportionately bi and open to eccentric sexual behavior and other indulgences compared to other races.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140865Yes, Billy, who could very well be Gay... can play a gay character now.

Dummy, Billy who could very well be Gay....could play a gay character back then too. D&D 5e didn't suddenly break down barriers for GBLT players because there were no barriers to begin with.

Quote from: S'mon;1140944Ironically adventurers also seem the kind of characters who might have 'non traditional gender roles'. Paizo actually got it right back in 2007 Rise of the Runelords with a semi-open homosexual couple of ex-adventurers in Sandpoint, and local attitudes varying from bemused tolerance to disapproval. Paizo stuff up through 2010 or so is pretty sane. Of course this didn't last and 6 years later there were female half-orc paladins selling their family heirloom magic swords to buy potions of transgenderism for their m2f (or f2m, I forget) lover/spouse - with full approval of their quasi-Christian crusading church, who apparently saw this as a great use of resources while locked in a life and death struggle with the demon horde. Because why not, bigot.

That seriously made me laugh.

So, the last 3 or so pages seem to be, full acceptance of LGBTQ(no idea how many letters we are up to) lifestyle and world view, or you are not welcoming at the table.   It also seems, it has been fully demonstrated, that Jeremy has a CLEAR AGENDA with his position at WOTC.   So we can stop with semantics I think.  You can welcome or not welcome anyone you want IMO.  I play with friends and family only generally, now that my son plays, I would not take him to a table with strangers.  I can say, if a person has a religious belief they can not stop espousing during a relaxing time playing games at a table, I would not welcome them to play games.  These days, the AGENDA people have a religious fervor towards pushing their world view.  NO ONE who wants to push a world view is welcome to playing a game of fun, relaxing make believe with me.  Period.

   The best example of neutral game for me is GURPS and I guess SW behind that.   I can even say GURPS is so vanilla it almost becomes a weakness rather than a strength in many of their loose setting ideas.  But I think they do this because they want to leave the GM plenty of room to have the setting take whatever form he wants.  This is a good thing, but hurts them IMO with selling a setting on the flavor category.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1140921So you're bi-sexual, so what?

There's no such thing as mostly straight or mostly gay you're or you aren't.

Because IRL isn't a RPG

Well, I'm attracted to the feminine, Baily Jay and Blair White are more feminine than many biological women. Whether they have a penis or not doesn't matter to me. You're calling me bisexual, where as I've had Alphabet people tell me I'm straight. I'm not attracted to every Trans-woman for that matter either.. Sexuality is a spectrum... some Bi folks prefer one gender over the other. I like women, feminine, pretty women, whether they are trans or not. Given hardcore Alphabet people say this makes me straight, and you're saying this makes me Bi... the only conclusion I can draw is, I'm mostly straight, outside of some edge cases.

Re realistic vs. Woke depictions of homosexuality, I was reminded of this watching the series finale of Dark, where the closeted gay character whose wife no longer exists is now apparently dating his trailer park prostitute.

Just because you're free to be gay now doesn't mean you'd necessarily want to date your prostitute...

I can't believe I haven't mentioned ACKS in this thread. I'm slacking. :)

All of ACKS is definitely non-Woke, especially the Heroic Fantasy Handbook.

FYI, there's been a LA Gaymers Meetup for only the Alphabet soup squad for over a decade. I've gamed with many members over the years at conventions and game days. Like every other grouping of humans, there's the good, the bad and the ugly.

If those public Meetups exist, anyone who wants an XYZ-only group should feel free to run their own exclusive events.

Previously, I was not a fan of ANY division in the hobby, but 2020 has taught many lessons.

Now, I only want people who can sit down on time(-ish), have fun, share snacks and STFU about anything outside of the game.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140909It's not a Goal Post move it's a better clarifying of my position. As for not being welcome in the hobby, you literally have a fucking dude here who says He's against "The Homosexual Agenda" and doesn't support "Sodomists". Gay people are literally NOT welcome at his table. So maybe stop trying to focus so much on "Winning" this argument and take a moment to go... Gee, maybe the fact we literally have people who won't let gays at their table means we DO NEED the world's most popular RPG to openly say they support Gays, to make them feel more welcome in the Hobby...

I know for a fact that there are groups who play D&D that are not welcoming to Republicans or Evangelical Christians (including several of the current employees of WoTC).  Should the PHB include them as well, so that they can feel welcome?  Or are you only interested in welcoming certain people?  How do you choose?  And who are you to choose?

Quote from: RandyB;1141118I can't believe I haven't mentioned ACKS in this thread. I'm slacking. :)

All of ACKS is definitely non-Woke, especially the Heroic Fantasy Handbook.

Swords & Sorcery tends to the resolutely non-Woke. Though S&S settings also tend to lack the Tolkienesque "evil races of evil to kill" thing, they are much too individualistic for that.

I like everything by Rich Baker, never seen anything Woke in his excellent adventures & campaign settings.

Quote from: Naburimannu on July 16, 2020, 03:41:44 AM
I don't find 5e to be problematically woke.

Hahaha. Sorry I just had to comment. Haha.

Earthdawn. All the high fantasy you can shake a stick at.

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 20, 2020, 05:44:01 PM
Not every Fantasy World should be like this, but I expect it of Forgotten Realms. Look at it this way, D&D is now the Disney of RPGs.

People do look at it this way.  Which is why there's backlash against D&D.

Our favorite (other than our homebrew) is DwD Studios' BareBones Fantasy.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/107498/BareBones-Fantasy-Role-Playing-Game (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/107498/BareBones-Fantasy-Role-Playing-Game)

It is relatively lightweight and has personality/moral-compasses to drive role-playing the character uniquely, with rewards for doing such. No metacurrency. Author/publisher is not woke and very apolitical. (Been following him on MeWe and other sources for over a decade.)

The simplicity and having the role-playing characteristics part of the character creation was really, really enjoyed by my players and made this our long-time favorite.

His science-fiction homage to Star Frontiers, Frontier Space, has metacurrency. When we play-tested the game, we totally forgot it even existed. IIRC, you use it to make Hollywood style actions doable or survivable, not to change reality arbitrarily.

Back to the topic, what about RuneQuest,and Tunnels & Trolls?

Confession I didn't read the whole thread but I'll put two of my favorites out. There are a lot of really good ones but adventurer conquerer king system from autarch. Great system while still being osr compatible. Second recommend is castles and crusades, said by the late Gary Gygax this is what second edition dnd should have been. The former will probably never go woke, and the latter tries not to make waves

I don't know how I missed it until now, but I recently discovered Beyond the Wall (and Other Adventures) and I am incredibly impressed with it.  It sort-of-does most of the stuff from my own B/X house rules (lifepath chargen, simplified classes (but with more options), 3e-type saving throws, slowly bleeding out <0 hp, etc), but better.  I do think that their multiclassing is too subjective, and prefer the 1e/2e way of doing it.  But the low-fantasy-YA-lit flavor of it is very compelling to me.  Being something of a filthy story gamer rather than a pure simulationist, I think the shared chargen and village-gen are pretty darned cool, and I look forward to seeing what emergent stories can be produced by this sandbox.

I look forward to exploring some of their other products too.  Their high-fantasy game...  What was it called, uh....  Through Sunken Lands, maybe?  It looks pretty neat as well, but I haven't really read it yet.

It does use masculine and feminine pronouns about equally, which I find slightly cringey from a purely grammatical perspective, but I haven't found anything really ridiculous in there yet.

Aside from that, there's always B/X D&D, one of it's retroclones, or your own homebrew.  There's no reason to always have to be playing the Newest Thing, imo.  The whole TSR library can be found, uh, out there on the net in the usual places.

Quote from: Lee on September 10, 2022, 05:32:55 PM
I don't know how I missed it until now, but I recently discovered Beyond the Wall (and Other Adventures) and I am incredibly impressed with it. 

They also have Through Sunken Lands and Other Adventures. A sword and sorcery take on Beyond the Wall.

Quote from: Slambo on July 20, 2020, 06:19:52 PM

Quote from: Orphan81;1140870

Just as, there should also be settings where it's blood, and filth, and the villagers will try to burn you as a witch if they see any hint of magic come from you.

but there's no support for these settings

Because these things are antithetical to modern corporate culture.  Nothing with shareholders is going to produce content like this.  The materials they produce are content not art.

Stick with the small indies if you're not capable of modifying it to match your preferred themes.

My favorite fantasy would be Arduin Grimoire, Cha'alt might be a good modern take on that since they both are heavy into the gonzo.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on September 10, 2022, 03:27:14 PM
Back to the topic, what about RuneQuest,and Tunnels & Trolls?

I´m afraid RuneQuest is woke like a MF, unless you mean the rules only and not Glorantha itself.
Just made my first post about this:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/your-glorantha-will-vary-patriarchal-glorantha/

Anyhow, I would like to mention HârnWorld, it is 99% non-woke. Sure, there are a few female
NPC characters which I have switched to male gender, but that´s about it. I have not seen any LTBTQ
propaganda and other woke garbage in it since late 90´s atleast.

Castles and Crusades; not woke

Does it have to be *fantasy* in the D&D sense, or fantasy in the more general sense?

If the former, I'm going with BECMI, HARP, or Dangerous Journeys. Harnworld, as mentioned above, Is consider almost historical, rather than fantasy, but it's also great. I consider it's mapping style as the gold standard.

If the latter, it's Twilight:2013 (TW:2000 v3) hands down, with Spycraft v1, Gamma World and Star Frontiers tied for 2nd. More close to real world, and I'm going with James Bond.

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 11, 2022, 10:11:10 AM
If the latter, it's Twilight:2013 (TW:2000 v3) hands down, with Spycraft v1, Gamma World and Star Frontiers tied for 2nd. More close to real world, and I'm going with James Bond.

Twilight, I am happy that there are still fans around, soooo fond memories  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Quote from: 1989 on July 15, 2020, 03:22:31 PM

Quote from: S'mon;11399431e AD&D is awesomely non-woke. I find myself making it MORE politically correct - eg my Gnolls have strong confident female leaders. :D

You know what surprised me recently? The pronouns used in various editions of D&D:

1974 OD&D: He
AD&D 1e: He or she
AD&D 2e: He (the book even provided a justification for why the generic masculine was the only way to write clearly ... surprise!)

Oh? Can you share their description for that justification? That sounds awesome!

As several people mentioned on page one, how about Palladium Fantasy?  I prefer 1st edition for its clarity, something Palladium slowly gets away from as their games kept coming out slightly modified from the previous ones.  1E doesn't have that issue. 

Or if you prefer more traditional, Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition.  It drops the D20, replacing it with a dice chain.  You roll an attribute die + skill dice to beat a target number.  All dice start as 1D4, replaced by the D6 as you get or start with higher stats, on up to max as a D12.   It also fixes a lot of issues I have with D&D.  Hit points only max out about 150% of where they started at, and armor is treated as additional hit points, not higher defense stat target numbers. 

Oh let's also mention Barbarians of Lemuria, wretched bastards, labyrinth lord, Conan, Xoth, stormbringer 1e and runequest 1e, mythras, worlds without number.

Also lion and dragon would be a good candidate to adapt to plenty of settings as well and let's not forget wfrp 2e

Quote from: Ocule on November 16, 2022, 05:14:35 PM
Oh let's also mention Barbarians of Lemuria, wretched bastards, labyrinth lord, Conan, Xoth, stormbringer 1e and runequest 1e, mythras, worlds without number.

Also lion and dragon would be a good candidate to adapt to plenty of settings as well and let's not forget wfrp 2e

Conan is most definitely woke, if you're talking Modiphius.  They have sensitivity disclaimers in every product.  Writers quit due to censorship.  Their discussion boards are like being on "The View," though I don't know if you can put all the blame for that on the company.  I did once have a moderator (since deceased) who restored a comment I made that triggered some snowflake.

Quote from: Persimmon on November 16, 2022, 08:56:31 PM

Quote from: Ocule on November 16, 2022, 05:14:35 PM
Oh let's also mention Barbarians of Lemuria, wretched bastards, labyrinth lord, Conan, Xoth, stormbringer 1e and runequest 1e, mythras, worlds without number.

Also lion and dragon would be a good candidate to adapt to plenty of settings as well and let's not forget wfrp 2e

Conan is most definitely woke, if you're talking Modiphius.  They have sensitivity disclaimers in every product.  Writers quit due to censorship.  Their discussion boards are like being on "The View," though I don't know if you can put all the blame for that on the company.  I did once have a moderator (since deceased) who restored a comment I made that triggered some snowflake.

I think for modiphious 2d20 most of the books came out before all that I don't remember seeing disclaimers or anything in the Conan material. I think Conan the wanderer was the first Time they got censored. I could be wrong though I'd love to see some testimony over it. If not then there's always mongoose or tsr Conan. Modiphous kinda toed that line for me where they were they should've been more risqué but the Picts are still blood thirsty savages, the dark lands is still tribal Africa.

Just saw the usual suspects coming out to have a go at this product (Mythic Polynesia by Design Mechanism). I've been looking forward to it for a while, so bought it quickly in case it gets "cancelled".

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413791/Mythic-Polynesia?src=hottest_small

Quote from: Ocule on November 16, 2022, 11:37:47 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on November 16, 2022, 08:56:31 PM

Quote from: Ocule on November 16, 2022, 05:14:35 PM
Oh let's also mention Barbarians of Lemuria, wretched bastards, labyrinth lord, Conan, Xoth, stormbringer 1e and runequest 1e, mythras, worlds without number.

Also lion and dragon would be a good candidate to adapt to plenty of settings as well and let's not forget wfrp 2e

Conan is most definitely woke, if you're talking Modiphius.  They have sensitivity disclaimers in every product.  Writers quit due to censorship.  Their discussion boards are like being on "The View," though I don't know if you can put all the blame for that on the company.  I did once have a moderator (since deceased) who restored a comment I made that triggered some snowflake.

I think for modiphious 2d20 most of the books came out before all that I don't remember seeing disclaimers or anything in the Conan material. I think Conan the wanderer was the first Time they got censored. I could be wrong though I'd love to see some testimony over it. If not then there's always mongoose or tsr Conan. Modiphous kinda toed that line for me where they were they should've been more risqué but the Picts are still blood thirsty savages, the dark lands is still tribal Africa.

Agreed.  I can't speak of their forums because I don't go there, but the books are pretty clean of modern day woke shit.  I just flipped through half a dozen of the books looking for something like a sidebar, or a GM note on triggers or sensitive topics and didn't see a single disclaimer.

I know Conan the Wanderer had some edits made and was the first to be hit by the "sensitivity" cult.  I have both versions of the pdf of it, pre and post.  The edits, while I disagree with them, really didn't change anything.  It was effectively 1/2 a page of combined changes to the text.

Quote from: 1989 on July 15, 2020, 03:22:31 PM

Quote from: S'mon;11399431e AD&D is awesomely non-woke. I find myself making it MORE politically correct - eg my Gnolls have strong confident female leaders. :D

You know what surprised me recently? The pronouns used in various editions of D&D:

1974 OD&D: He
AD&D 1e: He or she
AD&D 2e: He (the book even provided a justification for why the generic masculine was the only way to write clearly ... surprise!)

They should have built on that just to piss people off. Third edition should have joked about it
"we use "he" because this game is not for girls. Any women in the room? Out you go! Shoo!"

Does anyone think that perhaps 5E Players Handbook had he agenda stuff mentioned to make it LAW in convention games?
I mean everyone knows you can do whatever you want at your table no matter what it says in the books so beyond insurance against cancelation, or pushing an agenda, that seems a third possible option.

I would say Mythras is currently one of my favourite RPGs, and not just for fantasy. Not sure it is actively anti-woke as the star of the running examples is a female warrior and there is plenty of artwork featuring non-Caucasian individuals, but it certainly doesn't ram identity politics down your throat.

Or Advanced Fighting Fantasy for rules-light. Hard to separate my liking for its stripped-down but rich mechanics from the nostalgia factor, admittedly.

Quote from: Simon W on November 17, 2022, 05:13:02 AM
Just saw the usual suspects coming out to have a go at this product (Mythic Polynesia by Design Mechanism). I've been looking forward to it for a while, so bought it quickly in case it gets "cancelled".

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413791/Mythic-Polynesia?src=hottest_small

I am motivated to support TDM but on the other hand I have no interest in a Polynesia setting. The answer I think is to plump for a few Mythras products that I've been on the fence on for a while, like Logres and some of the adventures. 

Edit: veering off topic, but I wonder if the driving force of the wokist flashmob here is that Mythras is something of a competitor to nuChaosium's RQG. That is probably reading too much into it though.

Quote from: Marchand on November 19, 2022, 05:16:03 AM
I would say Mythras is currently one of my favourite RPGs, and not just for fantasy. Not sure it is actively anti-woke as the star of the running examples is a female warrior and there is plenty of artwork featuring non-Caucasian individuals, but it certainly doesn't ram identity politics down your throat.

Or Advanced Fighting Fantasy for rules-light. Hard to separate my liking for its stripped-down but rich mechanics from the nostalgia factor, admittedly.

Quote from: Simon W on November 17, 2022, 05:13:02 AM
Just saw the usual suspects coming out to have a go at this product (Mythic Polynesia by Design Mechanism). I've been looking forward to it for a while, so bought it quickly in case it gets "cancelled".

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413791/Mythic-Polynesia?src=hottest_small

I am motivated to support TDM but on the other hand I have no interest in a Polynesia setting. The answer I think is to plump for a few Mythras products that I've been on the fence on for a while, like Logres and some of the adventures. 

Edit: veering off topic, but I wonder if the driving force of the wokist flashmob here is that Mythras is something of a competitor to nuChaosium's RQG. That is probably reading too much into it though.

It wouldn't surprise me, these people are a virus. Mythras and design mechanism seem pretty neutral but there are a fair bit of wokists who hang around their discord I've noticed. The constant bitching about the Primitive culture and now this

You only need 1 fantasy game.

The KING of sword & sorcery roleplaying...

BARBARIANS OF LEMURIA MYTHIC EDITION

Quote from: Batjon on November 21, 2022, 05:07:22 AM
You only need 1 fantasy game.

The KING of sword & sorcery roleplaying...

BARBARIANS OF LEMURIA MYTHIC EDITION

I've been seriously considering this one as a go to for my s&s games. The fact that it's creator frequently posts here is a big plus

Quote from: Batjon on November 21, 2022, 05:07:22 AM
You only need 1 fantasy game.

The KING of sword & sorcery roleplaying...

BARBARIANS OF LEMURIA MYTHIC EDITION

Why would you recommend that setting? Honest question, as I'm curious about it.

It is primarily the mechanics.  It is rules-lite but very robust and screams sword & sorcery flavor.  It does stuff like Conan, Elric, etc. justice.  The magic system is genius and has all the tropes of how magic should work in S&S fiction, being dangerous, unpredictable, and corrupting.

The setting is also quite interesting and well-made.  It is also lite in that it is just enough fleshed out to hit that sweet spot for me but not so overly fleshed out like Forgotten Realms, that makes it very intimidating to try to run.  I also dig the implied notion on the setting that the game actually takes place in the far-flung future but now society is back at an ancient tech level overall.  That also means there are very cool things to be discovered and figured out from futuristic civilizations past.

Quote from: Batjon on November 21, 2022, 09:09:05 PM
The magic system is genius and has all the tropes of how magic should work in S&S fiction, being dangerous, unpredictable, and corrupting.

I don't get this trope.

When people say that magic should be dangerous and unpredictable, they seem to mean that it should be prone to backfiring on the user. I get the appeal of this, but I really don't think its a sword and sorcery trope. In all the S&S fiction I've read, magic is dangerous because it's unknown and mostly unavailable to the protagonists, not because it's unreliable. The Conan and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories are full of wizard antagonists, and their magic seems to pretty much always work as intended. Solomon Kane even employs a bit of magic on his own side, and it never backfires. Poul Anderson usually has clear delineations between white and black magic in his stories, and the white magic usually isn't dangerous at all.  I'm not claiming to have perfect knowledge of the literature, but in all of the stories I've read by Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, Robert Howard, and Clark Ashton Smith, I can only think of one or two examples of a spell misfiring. The idea seems to have come from Jack Vance, in which spells can be miscast and backfire on the caster, but that's just one author, and I'm not sure I'd even call the Dying Earth series "Sword and Sorcery".

The idea that magic should be corrupting seems to come from Michael Moorcock (though even there, Elric's magic rarely backfires on him, and I don't think Myshella's ever does). In his stories, using chaos magic brings people under the sway of chaos, but that is more a case of moral/spiritual corruption. Warhammer Fantasy picked up that idea up and made it physically corrupting, and then 40k took that even further. As far as I can tell that's the sole source for the idea that magic physically corrupts its wielders.

Again, I don't hate these tropes (except for the physical corruption thing. I find that most often just produces silliness). I just feel like people in the RPG world are suffering from the Mandela effect, where they think that's how it works in classic fantasy literature, when it mostly isn't. 

I read something about magic in Fafrd and the Grey mouser, i think its less that the magic itself is dangerous and more that its the trope of the sorcerer muttering a curse over a cauldron to conjure a deadly mist on the other side of the city rather than the instantaneous fireball.

In Elric saga humans cant do magic, only magical creatures can. Humans call on magical creatures for favors and pacts. So it's actually unreliable i cant count how many times Arioch denied Elric's request or some elemental lord basically told him to lose their number.

Conan magic and lovecraft magic are basically the same, they take a toll on the users sanity and drives them to evil.

I think it's a feel thing too, it feels like magic as opposed to feeling like x-men or something.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2022, 10:36:50 PM
The Conan and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories are full of wizard antagonists, and their magic seems to pretty much always work as intended.

In Lords of Quarmall Grey Mouser casts a spell from a scroll. It backfires; instead of killing the enemy wizards, it kills the wizards on his own side.

The 1e AD&D Lankhmar book in the mid 1980s had black magic be physically corrupting. There is only weak support for this in the books, eg the shrivelled appearance of Khakht (sp?), and the possibility Sheelba used to have eyes and Ningauble didn't have 7.

Half of "magic corrupting", or maybe more, is supposed to be feel more than mechanics.  Which is hard to do in a game where the players have the mechanics.  So things get a little over the top with the mechanics to invoke the feel.  In this way, it's similar to how undead energy drain works in early D&D.  It's deliberately, overly punitive in the mechanics in order to invoke the feel of horror and hopelessness and fright with certain undead. 

Naturally, anything with such techniques is going to appeal to some people while others will hate it.  Do you like it, for example, when a director uses blatant shock techniques in a movie to oversell the effect he wants?  How often and how far?  Same kind of thing.

Quote from: S'mon on November 22, 2022, 02:24:32 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2022, 10:36:50 PM
The Conan and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories are full of wizard antagonists, and their magic seems to pretty much always work as intended.

In Lords of Quarmall Grey Mouser casts a spell from a scroll. It backfires; instead of killing the enemy wizards, it kills the wizards on his own side.

The 1e AD&D Lankhmar book in the mid 1980s had black magic be physically corrupting. There is only weak support for this in the books, eg the shrivelled appearance of Khakht (sp?), and the possibility Sheelba used to have eyes and Ningauble didn't have 7.

It's been a minute since I read Lords of Quarmall, but I thought that the spell killed the wizards on both side. Also, isn't that more a case of the Mouser not understanding how the spell works, rather than him miscasting it? The other example I was thinking of is a Clark Ashton Smith story (can't recall what it's called now) where a wizard summons some kind of demon from the outer void that ends up destroying him. It's a small distinction, but in both cases the unpredictability of magic is less about the spells themselves being random in how they behave, and more about the characters messing with powers they don't understand.

Granted that would be a difficult thing to replicate in an RPG context, unless you're going to put the spell descriptions in the GM's guide and not let the players read them. As far as replicating the S&S tone, I think the best approach  is for the book to just say that you shouldn't let PCs play wizards. That's what Barbarians of Lemuria does, and I respect that. Modiphius Conan does a somewhat worse job by putting a magic system in the player's book, but writing it in such a convoluted and unclear way that most players just won't bother with it.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2022, 10:36:50 PM

Quote from: Batjon on November 21, 2022, 09:09:05 PM
The magic system is genius and has all the tropes of how magic should work in S&S fiction, being dangerous, unpredictable, and corrupting.

I don't get this trope.

When people say that magic should be dangerous and unpredictable, they seem to mean that it should be prone to backfiring on the user. I get the appeal of this, but I really don't think its a sword and sorcery trope. In all the S&S fiction I've read, magic is dangerous because it's unknown and mostly unavailable to the protagonists, not because it's unreliable. The Conan and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories are full of wizard antagonists, and their magic seems to pretty much always work as intended. Solomon Kane even employs a bit of magic on his own side, and it never backfires. Poul Anderson usually has clear delineations between white and black magic in his stories, and the white magic usually isn't dangerous at all.  I'm not claiming to have perfect knowledge of the literature, but in all of the stories I've read by Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, Robert Howard, and Clark Ashton Smith, I can only think of one or two examples of a spell misfiring. The idea seems to have come from Jack Vance, in which spells can be miscast and backfire on the caster, but that's just one author, and I'm not sure I'd even call the Dying Earth series "Sword and Sorcery".

The idea that magic should be corrupting seems to come from Michael Moorcock (though even there, Elric's magic rarely backfires on him, and I don't think Myshella's ever does). In his stories, using chaos magic brings people under the sway of chaos, but that is more a case of moral/spiritual corruption. Warhammer Fantasy picked up that idea up and made it physically corrupting, and then 40k took that even further. As far as I can tell that's the sole source for the idea that magic physically corrupts its wielders.

Again, I don't hate these tropes (except for the physical corruption thing. I find that most often just produces silliness). I just feel like people in the RPG world are suffering from the Mandela effect, where they think that's how it works in classic fantasy literature, when it mostly isn't.

The two are not incompatible.

The antagonist sorcerer's spell will work as intended. When the PC's street urchin character takes up sorcery, the risk of backfire is high. One is a master and the other is a student. Magic is both dangerous and not, depending on who is practicing it. DCC does this well, in that as you level up your chance of misfire decreases.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 22, 2022, 07:06:56 AM
Half of "magic corrupting", or maybe more, is supposed to be feel more than mechanics.  Which is hard to do in a game where the players have the mechanics.  So things get a little over the top with the mechanics to invoke the feel.  In this way, it's similar to how undead energy drain works in early D&D.  It's deliberately, overly punitive in the mechanics in order to invoke the feel of horror and hopelessness and fright with certain undead. 

Naturally, anything with such techniques is going to appeal to some people while others will hate it.  Do you like it, for example, when a director uses blatant shock techniques in a movie to oversell the effect he wants?  How often and how far?  Same kind of thing.

Yeah, I figure the reason why games tend to lean into the physical corruption side, is that it's such a pain in ass to try and make players roleplay their characters becoming more morally corrupted. Maybe you could do it with some kind of "Humanity" mechanic, similar to the way that Cyberpunk does cyber-psychosis, but it's far from optimal.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2022, 09:18:33 AM

Quote from: S'mon on November 22, 2022, 02:24:32 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2022, 10:36:50 PM
The Conan and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories are full of wizard antagonists, and their magic seems to pretty much always work as intended.

In Lords of Quarmall Grey Mouser casts a spell from a scroll. It backfires; instead of killing the enemy wizards, it kills the wizards on his own side.

The 1e AD&D Lankhmar book in the mid 1980s had black magic be physically corrupting. There is only weak support for this in the books, eg the shrivelled appearance of Khakht (sp?), and the possibility Sheelba used to have eyes and Ningauble didn't have 7.

It's been a minute since I read Lords of Quarmall, but I thought that the spell killed the wizards on both side. Also, isn't that more a case of the Mouser not understanding how the spell works, rather than him miscasting it? The other example I was thinking of is a Clark Ashton Smith story (can't recall what it's called now) where a wizard summons some kind of demon from the outer void that ends up destroying him. It's a small distinction, but in both cases the unpredictability of magic is less about the spells themselves being random in how they behave, and more about the characters messing with powers they don't understand.

Granted that would be a difficult thing to replicate in an RPG context, unless you're going to put the spell descriptions in the GM's guide and not let the players read them. As far as replicating the S&S tone, I think the best approach  is for the book to just say that you shouldn't let PCs play wizards. That's what Barbarians of Lemuria does, and I respect that. Modiphius Conan does a somewhat worse job by putting a magic system in the player's book, but writing it in such a convoluted and unclear way that most players just won't bother with it.

It leaves the enemy wizards untouched, so their curses do horrible things to Mouser's Lord.

I prefer the magic of The Witcher novels where the first thing most sorceress do is glam themselves up permanently to look like how Triss Merigold and Yennifer appear. 

Russian Roulette magic is fun for short games, but long campaigns need that player to be an asset and not a wasted effort with an annoyed player.  But that's just our way.  Your table, your rules.

I always found it ironic that "spell misfires" come from the same 'system' that spawned Vancian Magic in D&D which has no such mechanics.

I'm in the camp that says "Magic should be Dangerous"... BUT... I'd add a caveat. I want the *really* good Magicians to be able to 'Ride the Tiger' if they're good. This is to directly address the issue of longevity mentioned above.

The root needs of this narrative requires 1) Spellcasting is a skill and *must* be rolled. 2) Spellcasters should have means to contend with difficulties through ritual/gear/externalities of preparation or training 3) Results should/could have degrees of success or even failure.

Talislanta's spellcasting is close to this. All spellcasting is a skill check. Each school has bonuses/penalties to different types of effects. But the Caster sets the level of the spell, with that level being the penalty to cast vs. their skill rating. The system uses a universal table with degrees of success cooked in. So a good spellcaster can frontload their spells and be very dangerous - if they're willing to take the risk. I've had players nuke their characters into ash "playing the odds", but I've also had them take risky moves that pulled the party's ass out of the fire. Or you can play it safe to make it virtually impossible fail... with very predictable results.

Exalted 2e is a surprisingly not woke game with a good system but a bad setting. Use Quixalted Extended for 2e's setting.

QuoteI prefer the magic of The Witcher novels where the first thing most sorceress do is glam themselves up permanently to look like how Triss Merigold and Yennifer appear.

For nerdism sake: while glamours are definitely in Witcher sorcereress repertoir - their general good and sexy look is more actual biomantic transformation, on material level, not mere illusion for senses, and it's done yet in schools by their mentors to fit proper expectations.

Some in my group, including me, have been using Microlite20 and Microlite2020 as a basis for creating our own rules and they have worked pretty good. When we need something more 'crunchy' (I still don't really know what that means... does it just mean more complex and confusing so that rules lawyers have an advantage???) we have been playing Savage Worlds which I really like. Savage Worlds is a nice balance between the more typical complex rules and rules-lite. We still play 5e because we all have invested the time and money to figure it out, but I don't see us buying into anything else from WotC.

In my system, "The Arcane Confabulation", you can do a lot to mitigate the risk of spell backfires if you put the time and effort in.  Particularly drawing ambient power before casting and ritually cleansing the aether after casting but even taking time between spells helps as the natural flow of the aether will eventually cleanse itself.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 22, 2022, 12:47:46 PM
I prefer the magic of The Witcher novels where the first thing most sorceress do is glam themselves up permanently to look like how Triss Merigold and Yennifer appear. 

Russian Roulette magic is fun for short games, but long campaigns need that player to be an asset and not a wasted effort with an annoyed player.  But that's just our way.  Your table, your rules.

But even in the Witcher books - There are real risks to channeling too much magic. The sorcerers don't default a whole lot to big boom D&D style combat magic as their go to.

This is reflected in an aside in the books where they talk about how the mages/sorcerers daily bread and butter is actually earned through the practice of Alchemy; selling cures, potions, and elixirs. Most of which is gussied up by adding meaningless mysticism so the plebs believe you need to be a mage to do it - preserving their trade from being widely practiced and driving prices down!

I believe that there is a risk/reward balance RPG's could do a better job of striking for magic users.

I do like the concept of a Alchemist/Sorcerer - doing most things through alchemy and only going to channeling magic when the risk calls for it. But it would be a trick to 'balance' in a game. Even the Witcher RPG breaks out the way sorcerers are portrayed in the book to separate alchemist, sorcerer, and doctor roles.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 20, 2020, 04:55:06 AM

Quote from: S'mon;1140142PHB-DMG-MM really are not. Nor are the early campaign adventures. It only went full Woke when Jeremy Crawford got to turn FR into his Magical Realm with Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. Mearls is a weak left-liberal not an SJW.

Hmmm, I dunno. It was Mearls who did the infamous tweet where he fired all of us.

Funny, I don't "feel" fired?

Quote from: 1989 on July 20, 2020, 01:21:53 PM

Quote from: Orphan81;1140776There was no "Homosexual and trans agenda" in the players Handbook. There was a boiler plate hamfisted sidebar to cover asses.

There's a lot of woke garbage in the world, but the players Handbook is not it.

Acknowledging gay and trans people exist is not "an agenda".

I don't believe in transgenderism. I won't use the pronouns they wish for me to use. I don't believe in celebrating mental illness or sodomy.

I don't want sodomy forced into every adventure I could potentially buy as is now the official policy at WotC.

It is very much an agenda -- an agenda to get society to tolerate, accept, and now celebrate. This is not news to anyone, certainly not to anyone old enough to be a parent.

I completely agree.  Bravo!!!

You're not any better off with Paizo products, either.

Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2020, 05:43:05 PM
I remember back in the old days of roleplaying when there was just an empty space where you could write your characters sex.

Ah, those racist bigoted good times.

That's my preference.  Just write whatever you want to on your character sheet.  It's your character.  It's yours to run.  Have fun with that.

I'd rather not be preached to on such subjects, by a rules book.

Here are a few fantasy games that I like, but no hint of real world politics.   And they're all free to download.

1.  Pocket Fantasy.  Super rules lite, and free. It's all about playing an RPG using just a single D6.  And it works.  Since it's free, just download it.

2.  Mini-Six Bare Bones.  Another rules lite game that is free.  This time it's classic Star Wars D6 rules.  I'll admit that I find the magic system a bit underwhelming.  It's easy enough to change.  In my case I prefer having weaker effects using lowered difficulty numbers rather than the fixed spells in the book.  I also love it for a set of sword dueling rules called Dueling Blades by Griffon Publishing you can download.

3.  Shinobi & Samurai.  Free rulebook again, but this time we're using D&D rules in a Japanese samurai setup.  The game is a bit light on background culture and has no assumed setting.  It could be 1500's Japan.  It could be an alternative universe.  It could be a far away land in your D&D universe.  It's a bit too D&D for me, but maybe you like that stuff. 

pathfinder 1e

Quote from: Jaeger on December 22, 2022, 04:01:41 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 22, 2022, 12:47:46 PM
I prefer the magic of The Witcher novels where the first thing most sorceress do is glam themselves up permanently to look like how Triss Merigold and Yennifer appear. 

Russian Roulette magic is fun for short games, but long campaigns need that player to be an asset and not a wasted effort with an annoyed player.  But that's just our way.  Your table, your rules.

But even in the Witcher books - There are real risks to channeling too much magic. The sorcerers don't default a whole lot to big boom D&D style combat magic as their go to.

This is reflected in an aside in the books where they talk about how the mages/sorcerers daily bread and butter is actually earned through the practice of Alchemy; selling cures, potions, and elixirs. Most of which is gussied up by adding meaningless mysticism so the plebs believe you need to be a mage to do it - preserving their trade from being widely practiced and driving prices down!

I believe that there is a risk/reward balance RPG's could do a better job of striking for magic users.

I do like the concept of a Alchemist/Sorcerer - doing most things through alchemy and only going to channeling magic when the risk calls for it. But it would be a trick to 'balance' in a game. Even the Witcher RPG breaks out the way sorcerers are portrayed in the book to separate alchemist, sorcerer, and doctor roles.

This I think is a critical point. If you want to do the whole "magic is unpredictable and likely to blow up in your face" thing and still keep wizards as a player class, there need to be other useful things for them to do that aren't casting spells. Modiphius Conan 2d20 tries this with its system of "petty enchantments" (which are things like firebombs, sleeping potions, etc), but due to the generally shoddy way that game writes it's magic rules, it falls down in execution.

Quote from: squirewaldo on December 22, 2022, 11:05:19 AM
Some in my group, including me, have been using Microlite20 and Microlite2020 as a basis for creating our own rules and they have worked pretty good.

Slightly off-topic, but have you used the optional FEATS rule in your games? If so, would you mind sharing any that you've come up with?  A couple of members of my group and I are able to come up with them, but a few other members of the group would appreciate more of a shopping list of available feats if possible.