Quote from: 1989;1140261I'd say the PHB was woke enough, pushing it's homosexuality and transgender agenda.

It didn't have an overt agenda, but you could see it looming close on the horizon with its hamfisted way of saying that you would play whatever you wanted. Anyone who has played TTRPGs for any length of time already knows that you can play whatever you want, be it race or sex or sexual preference, so making that obvious statement in the book is overkill. Regardless of the lies being told about gaming in the 70s and 80s, most people didn't care unless you were playing a character that was different just to be a weird asshole about it at the table.

Quote from: jeff37923;1140774It didn't have an overt agenda, but you could see it looming close on the horizon with its hamfisted way of saying that you would play whatever you wanted. Anyone who has played TTRPGs for any length of time already knows that you can play whatever you want, be it race or sex or sexual preference, so making that obvious statement in the book is overkill. Regardless of the lies being told about gaming in the 70s and 80s, most people didn't care unless you were playing a character that was different just to be a weird asshole about it at the table.

There was no "Homosexual and trans agenda" in the players Handbook. There was a boiler plate hamfisted sidebar to cover asses.

There's a lot of woke garbage in the world, but the players Handbook is not it.

Acknowledging gay and trans people exist is not "an agenda".

Quote from: jeff37923;1140774Anyone who has played TTRPGs for any length of time already knows that you can play whatever you want, be it race or sex or sexual preference, so making that obvious statement in the book is overkill.

5e is not only for those that have previously played RPGs; for many it will likely be their first (and possibly only) RPG.

Quote from: HappyDaze;11407835e is not only for those that have previously played RPGs; for many it will likely be their first (and possibly only) RPG.

If 5e is their only TTRPG, then it is because of the garbage woke culture that surrounds it turned them off of the hobby.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1140761Along the same lines, I really like the material from BRW Games.
I find some of their enhancements to 1e style interesting and well done.
A Curious Volume of Forgotten Lore:  Can be used in tandem with 1e or,
Adventures Dark and Deep as standalone:

I had forgotten about those. And I just bought A Curious Volume of Forgotten Lore as supplemental options for 1e.

Agree - not-woke.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140776There was no "Homosexual and trans agenda" in the players Handbook. There was a boiler plate hamfisted sidebar to cover asses.

There's a lot of woke garbage in the world, but the players Handbook is not it.

Acknowledging gay and trans people exist is not "an agenda".

I don't believe in transgenderism. I won't use the pronouns they wish for me to use. I don't believe in celebrating mental illness or sodomy.

I don't want sodomy forced into every adventure I could potentially buy as is now the official policy at WotC.

It is very much an agenda -- an agenda to get society to tolerate, accept, and now celebrate. This is not news to anyone, certainly not to anyone old enough to be a parent.

Quote from: jeff37923;1140785If 5e is their only TTRPG, then it is because of the garbage woke culture that surrounds it turned them off of the hobby.

I've met plenty of people that are casual gamers and have only played D&D (plus video games, card games, and non-TTRPGs). This had nothing to do with the woke culture, just other competing passtimes.

Quote from: 1989;1140835I don't believe in transgenderism. I won't use the pronouns they wish for me to use. I don't believe in celebrating mental illness or sodomy.

I don't want sodomy forced into every adventure I could potentially buy as is now the official policy at WotC.

It is very much an agenda -- an agenda to get society to tolerate, accept, and now celebrate. This is not news to anyone, certainly not to anyone old enough to be a parent.

In this case, I'm very happy you're not being catered to. If you think a simple sidebar that says "Anyone can play this game with no judgement" is part of a Gay and Transgender agenda... then if I could make every rpg in the world have a side bar with that... I would, simply because it would make you uncomfortable.

Quote from: jeff37923;1140785If 5e is their only TTRPG, then it is because of the garbage woke culture that surrounds it turned them off of the hobby.

Jeff, this is completely disingenuous and you know it. 5E is their first RPG because the current edition of D&D is almost everyone's first RPG. I'm one of the rare exceptions because I got picked up at Whitewolf's zeitgeist in the early 90s...and then my 2nd RPG was Dungeons and Dragons.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140843In this case, I'm very happy you're not being catered to. If you think a simple sidebar that says "Anyone can play this game with no judgement" is part of a Gay and Transgender agenda... then if I could make every rpg in the world have a side bar with that... I would, simply because it would make you uncomfortable.

Except that:

- it wasn't a sidebar
- that wasn't what it said
- the agenda is now in every adventure from WotC

In the 5e Player's Handbook (and basic rules pdf), we have transgenderism and homosexuality being pushed:

https://www.themarysue.com/basic-rules-dnd/

"You can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your
character does or does not conform to the broader culture's expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior.
For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to
the surface."

"You don't need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen
as androgynous, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon's image. You could also play
a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female
dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character's sexual orientation is for you to decide."

Yes, that's right, little Billy. You can be a transgender girl -- if you feel like you are one -- or gay, too! It's okay! Celebrate it!

But they didn't stop there. They had to makes sure that every D&D adventure would now include homosexual NPCs:

https://kotaku.com/dungeons-dragons-...eer-1798401117

Jeremy is gay. Some of his family members are transgender.

"As we sat together at Gen Con in Indianapolis this weekend talking Dungeons & Dragons, the game's lead rules developer Jeremy Crawford motioned towards a copy of the Player's Handbook resting on the table between us. "I wasn't about to have this book go out and not acknowledge that people like me exist," he said.

"They'll meet the 52-year-old wheat farmer Thelbin Osstra, his husband Brynn, and Brynn's adopted nephew Broland."

"Crawford told me that publisher Wizards of the Coast is making D&D more gay, and why that's a great thing.

"What was a scattering of queer characters throughout the years formalized into a guiding principle with 2016's Curse of Strahd, an adventure that has players take down the vampire Count Strahd. Every adventure since Curse of Strahd has included one or several queer characters, and Crawford assured Kotaku that this will be a constant into future adventures: "Ever since we brought our adventure design fully back in-house," he said, "all of our new adventures contain LGBT characters."[/B]

If you don't agree with this, then Mike Mearls has this to say:

"I'm not worried about offending bigots - quite the opposite, in fact."

So, you are a bigot.

And now . . . you are a racist, as well!

That's right folks: agree with us, or you are a bigot and a racist. Isn't tolerance lovely, as long as we tolerate only the viewpoints that I like? If you don't agree with me, then I don't have to tolerate you! But you must tolerate me! If you are uncomfortable, that's fine! But I must be made to feel comfortable!

This is the agenda: accept homosexuality and transgenderism. Accept it, and celebrate it -- because it's "a great thing." And if you don't think it's "a great thing", then you are "a bigot." And that is the agenda that is shown clearly the case in WotC's products.

If you cannot see how that is pushing an agenda, you are being disingenuous.

I don't mind gay characters in fantasy settings. I kinda like it in some settings as a nod to realism. I do object to fantasy settings having universal cultural norms of 2018 Seattle. "52-year-old wheat farmer Thelbin Osstra, his husband Brynn, and Brynn's adopted nephew Broland" in a pseudo-medieval setting just has the Reek of Wrongness.

Quote from: Orphan81;1140844Jeff, this is completely disingenuous and you know it.

No, this has been my experience with members of the Adventurer's League, WotC fans, and D&D 5e writers/contributors.

Quote from: Orphan81;11408445e is their first RPG because the current edition of D&D is almost everyone's first RPG. I'm one of the rare exceptions because I got picked up at Whitewolf's zeitgeist in the early 90s...and then my 2nd RPG was Dungeons and Dragons.

And if that first experience has a bunch of associated woke bullshit attached to it, which D&D 5e does, then that can turn new people off of gaming all-together.

Quote from: S'mon;1140851I don't mind gay characters in fantasy settings. I kinda like it in some settings as a nod to realism. I do object to fantasy settings having universal cultural norms of 2018 Seattle. "52-year-old wheat farmer Thelbin Osstra, his husband Brynn, and Brynn's adopted nephew Broland" in a pseudo-medieval setting just has the Reek of Wrongness.

Seriously, a gay couple in a pseudo-medieval or ancient world likely be strictly an urban thing (like a wealthy merchant or nobleman taking a favored male sex slave), or maybe part of a troupe of performers or something like that. Even a gladiator, with no long term prospects and no idea whether he'll live or die in the arena, taking another male slave as a lover to pass the time would make more sense.

But farmers traditionally marry someone of the opposite sex and have a lot of kids, cuz farming requires a lot of hands, particularly in a pre-industrialized world. The notion of a gay farmer, his husband and their adoptive son is such a privileged urbanite modern world take, it seems completely divorced from real world needs. It's like they randomly decided to make them farmers just because "why not (you bigot!)?"

But the real offense here is:

QuoteFor example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface.

A male drow cleric is either a lowly acolyte unable to ever advance in the hierarchy of the priesthood of Lolth or a heretical worshiper of a rival deity in danger of being hunted down and sacrificed to the Spider Queen. There is no "defiance" of traditional gender roles here. There is only knowing his place at the bottom of the hierarchy or unlawful religious practices not allowed to ANYONE in drow society, regardless of what hangs or doesn't between their legs. And if the PC truly is a spurned priest of Lolth leaving traditional drow society behind to worship Lolth his way, is that really someone you want in your party? :rolleyes:

Also, while we're at it, just cuz the implication here bugs me:

QuoteJeremy Crawford motioned towards a copy of the Player's Handbook resting on the table between us. "I wasn't about to have this book go out and not acknowledge that people like me exist," he said.

WTF does this have to do with RPGs? I mean, does the PHB of any edition of D&D acknowledge the existence of straight people or delve into character relationships at all? What about dog owners? They barely even mention white people or left handed people at all. And there's no mention of Hispanics, ever. Does that mean I've been spurned in some way?

None of this is relevant to the purpose of an RPG rule book. This is such a self-important attitude to have--that a rule book is somehow obliged to acknowledge your personal existence, like it matters. Like you wouldn't be able to play a Capricorn or a Virgo unless the book specifically told you you're allowed (actually that one would make sense, since astrological signs are bound to be different in a fantasy world not based on Earth).

Quote from: 1989;1140849If you cannot see how that is pushing an agenda, you are being disingenuous.

Yes, Billy, who could very well be Gay... can play a gay character now. This is only a problem if you're a Homophobe. You don't have to agree with the extreme left when it comes to promoting Drag queen kids, or giving hormones to 8 year olds... but accepting gay and transgender people are real and not demonizing them is not an agenda.. It's called being a decent human being.

I remember back in the old days of roleplaying when there was just an empty space where you could write your characters sex.

Ah, those racist bigoted good times.