Quote from: Werekoala;513757Yeah but we've just had several pages of discussion and data supporting the fact that the YA market is booming - and those are books people read, ya know? So sneaking in something to the book shelves like I suggested might work. Might not. Just a thought.

Dating sims and all that jazz require quite a lot of reading as well. Visual Interactive Novel is all the rage in the anime fans - I myself admit that Fate Stay Night, while more then slightly erotical, also has a decent story for such stuff.

Not to mention that using computers as medium here is much cheaper then printing and risking that the printing won't return. There are freeware programs for making Visual Novels, just hire a guy to use that program and a graphic to draw a few pieces. Going back to the books is a gamble at best, and a potential shot in the foot at worst.

Forward, not backward. Not to mention that Ishit and all that jazz seems to be popular with you First Worlders nowadays - even easier to just carry around a "Visual Novel" with you there.

Quote from: Werekoala;513755Idea: Try getting the YA readers into the idea of roleplaying via a return to "Choose Your Own Adventure" style books, with rudamentary rules for creating your character as part of the book. Role up a super-basic character and then start your day at Sweet Valley High or whatever, trying to pass that algebra test while figuring out how to score a date with the cute guy in the third row. May not be the best idea, but certainly do-able and might possibly work.

Ahhh, Choose Your Own Adventures. Good times, good times.

They even did a few where you did roll dice to create a character as you read along and chose your adventure.

Quote from: Werekoala;513755Role up a super-basic character and then start your day at Sweet Valley High or whatever, trying to pass that algebra test while figuring out how to score a date with the cute guy in the third row.

That's not what YA is right now. Much of YA is genre stuff: fantasy, "post-apocalyptic" (read: sci fi, marketed differently), and even horror ("The Forest of Hands and Teeth").

Which is the point, with Fantasy YA selling well, D&D isn't such a huge leap. And the Hunger Games and other works being "post apocalyptic" means SF is popular as well.

RPG's are not wholly genre-related, but that's the majority of the hobby, and the majority of the hobbyists like one or all spec-fic genres. Which means now is a prime time to draw in spec-fic YA fans.

Well I was just throwing out an example, you could easily do a more genre-appropriate CYOA format. Imagine something like a Percy Jackson adventure done as a semi-RPG CYOA book. I think that'd sell, and it's a natural fit with D&D and the like already, as you say.

I'll just leave this right here.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;513836I'll just leave this right here.

No, no, D&D needs more women and blacks in the hobby.

Quote from: Werekoala;513764Well I was just throwing out an example, you could easily do a more genre-appropriate CYOA format. Imagine something like a Percy Jackson adventure done as a semi-RPG CYOA book. I think that'd sell, and it's a natural fit with D&D and the like already, as you say.

I don't think it would. CYOA sales crashed within 2 years of the first handheld video game systems coming out. That might be coincidental, but I don't think so: I think everything CYOA offered can be trivially offered in a superior package by video games.

If I won the lottery tomorrow, though, I would look at creating interactive adventure Facebook with ersatz Harry Potter, Twilight, and Hunger Games themes that would allow you to print out a character sheet that you could take to a pen 'n paper table.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;513836I'll just leave this right here.

Like others have said, adolescents are a market for RPG's, especially those who read, especially those who read spec-fic.

Or are you claiming the opposite? Your response was opaque, but implied that marketing to adolescents was a galactic-scale mistake, because they're not a target market for RPG's.

It seemed to be saying: "Adolescents don't play D&D, it's only 40+ grognards. We must only sell to them!"

That's foolish.

Back in the hobby's heyday, adolescents were a large portion of the hobby. Junior high-schoolers and high-schoolers who read fantasy, sci-fi, and horror are potential RPG players.

Why not market to them, as well? As opposed to solely marketing to the 40+ (and aging) core of the hobby?

"4e tried and it was a failure!"

4e was shit. Here's another rule of marketing/manufacturing: Don't Make Shit.

Just because 4e failed (largely of the "it's shit" factor) doesn't mean all such attempts are doomed.

A great game, with a good introductory rulebook (all in one), that sells for a reasonable price, and is marketed towards the YA spec-fic crowd, could succeed.

Is it a risk? Sure. Business ventures, especially new ones, are.

Here's another rule of business: Take Risks, or Thou Shalt Wither Away.

But this really isn't a new venture, is it? Isn't this how the hobby used to work?

The problem began with TSR lard-asses who abandoned introductory products, which cut off new people from discovering the hobby. They did this to make more money. (3 $20+ manuals instead of a $20 box? Ka-ching!) And for a while, it may have seemed to.

But without a steady influx of new customers, your business will die off. That's another rule: Acquire New Customers, or Thou Shalt Wither Away.

There are new customers to be had. Go get them. Or wither away.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;513701And I'm not trying to hammer you into saying you are. Again, I only have the information I have, and those people (agents, editors, authors) are saying what they're saying. So I cannot claim absolute knowledge.

I would like to see where the disconnect is. I suspect it lies in the difference between "what we (the bookstore chain) sell" and "how much I (the author) make."

There does seem to be a disconnect somewhere.

All I know is when I was at B&N earlier tonight, my jaw dropped when I noticed they had a 'Teen Paranormal' section.  Not an endcap.  Not a display table.  A flippin' section.  Three eye-high shelving units, and most of it spine-out.  This was separate (but next to) the 'normal' 'YA/Teen fiction' section, which was seven shelving units of that size.  Fuck, that's a lot of books.

Blew my damn mind.  Now, whether it'll stick, or whether it's publishers flooding the market trying to find the next 'Hunger Games' (remember how many grunge bands there used to be?), I don't know.

But however temporary it might (or might not) be, there's something there on which to capitalize.

Quote from: Opaopajr;513762Ahhh, Choose Your Own Adventures. Good times, good times.

They even did a few where you did roll dice to create a character as you read along and chose your adventure.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stormslayer-Fighting-Fantasy-Steve-Jackson/dp/1848310781

I remember my first exposure to those books, "Warlock of Firetop Mountain"...I bought it in London, and felt guilty for spending 'vacation' time playing it.

I even had the boardgame, though I unloaded it on E-bay years ago.

Quote from: B.T.;513839No, no, D&D needs more women and blacks in the hobby.

Plenty of both in the hobby already, I'd guess. I'd say at least 40% of players I know are female, and an overwhelming majority of my friends who are black are also roleplayers.

What is probably more significant, however, is that both groups generally disdain anything marketed specifically at them.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;513849Like others have said, adolescents are a market for RPG's, especially those who read, especially those who read spec-fic.

Or are you claiming the opposite? Your response was opaque, but implied that marketing to adolescents was a galactic-scale mistake, because they're not a target market for RPG's.

Gaming is a Young Guy's Thing.  That's the demographic to pursue.  Everyone else is gravy, and not worth the effort to actively pursue.  The biggest properties in TRPGs, and the most successful paradigm of play, are so aimed at young guys that it beggars the mind to argue otherwise.  Therefore I say that the same strategy that the UFC used to rock its way to glory (and profitability, and acceptance) is what should be used to rebuild TRPGs as a category: focus on young men, starting a few years younger than the UFC's acquisition category (because you don't have the same PPV-centric delivery model), and work across class and race lines.  Women coming along are a bonus, but not a necessity; women aren't into what the TRPG category offers, as a rule, so stop chasing an audience that ain't going to buy into it.

Quote from: VectorSigma;513855But however temporary it might (or might not) be, there's something there on which to capitalize.

I agree wholeheartedly.

There are always opportunities to acquire new customers. Sometimes they're few and hard to find, sometimes they're plentiful.

For too long, the industry has been failing to capitalize on those opportunities which exist. The death of the industry (so far as it is an actual occurrence) is the industry's fault.

If you, as a businessman, can't find a market for your goods, it's your fault.

Make a product people want to buy, at a price they are willing to pay. Market that product to prospective buyers. That's how you gain new customers.

Maybe it'll take (as someone mentioned doing) sponsoring introductory sessions of RP'ing at venues, so people can experience the hobby firsthand.

Maybe it'll take an introductory game on Facebook (as Justin said).

Or bringing back the boxed set, or at least an introductory-level manual.

Or looking into those new-fangled e-readers, for an interactive novel. (Big in Japan, not so much in America.)

(On that subject, didn't a prominent computer company, which sells lots of eReaders to teens, just announce a new program which would allow one to build a snazzy interactive RPG novel, including animations and videos and whatnot? And that you could sell it in their high-traffic, online store? Without printing costs or anything? And 70% of the price goes right to you? Maybe that might be an opportunity.)

Or maybe marketing in appropriate places. (Gasp! Shock!)

Take a chance, invest some money, work your ass off. Think of new approaches to selling. It's your livelihood, it's your responsibility.

Or you can sit around on your ass bitching about the world, and see how far that gets you.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;513861are so aimed at young guys that it beggars the mind to argue otherwise.

It's a good thing I never said that, or argued that, as you and B.T. seemed to believe.

Just for clarity's sake, what I said is:

Adolescents are readers, in large numbers, and they read genre fiction, again in large numbers. That's a great audience to target for RPG's.

Create a good product, priced to sell, and market it to adolescent genre-fiction readers. That could (not will, but could) be a winning strategy.

That's it. And nothing you actually said seems to contradict what I actually said.

(Not that I agree with everything you said.)

So... where's the disagreement?