Quote from: TristramEvans;513688The thing is, reading fantasy doesn't require a person to be creative. Playing an RPG does.

I agree. I know plenty of sci if and fantasy fans that have no interest in RPGing due to this distinction. The housewife market is not where you are going to grow your RPGer population.

In comparison, I see RPGing as a natural culmination of my interest in those genres, and some RPGers struggle to see how anyone could differ.

Different strokes for different folks, and I am cool with that

Up until November of last year I was working for the largest currently in existence bookstore chain in North America. This much more accurately represents their sales figures:



I can't say where any of those other sources are getting their info, but it doesn't correspond with any of the business sales or volume figures that I saw in the last 2 years.

I have no vested interest one way or the other, so I may be wrong, but I also would assume that people are looking at impressive sales for individual YA titles vs bestsellers in other genres and assuming these extend to the genre as a whole. My experience simply says otherwise. ALOT of people bought the Twilight series. I would guess only a fraction of them bought any other YA books.

Quote from: TristramEvans;513700I have no vested interest one way or the other, so I may be wrong,

And I'm not trying to hammer you into saying you are. Again, I only have the information I have, and those people (agents, editors, authors) are saying what they're saying. So I cannot claim absolute knowledge.

I would like to see where the disconnect is. I suspect it lies in the difference between "what we (the bookstore chain) sell" and "how much I (the author) make."

There does seem to be a disconnect somewhere.

Quote from: 1989;513075Fuck minis, pogs, and all that bullshit. Just makes D&D like another board game on the shelf.

The selling point of the Red Box was "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in the player's imagination.(quote from cover of Red Box).

Fuck. Talk about missing the entire point of D&D.

3e did a really dirty subtle backdoor job with minis.  When they released D&D Minis (the plastic ones) my old group had up to that point been completely narrative.  We initially played 3e narrativelyl, and things were good, but once those pieces of plastic crack were introduced, I found that we started implementing some of the tactical rules from 3e, even thought they made no sense and we basically winged it (we had ignored the 2e rules in C&T).  We had all played and enjoyed FF Tactics so it was rather exotic and interesting at first, and we used all kinds of odds and ends to represent monsters and 3D terrain.  

Cut to the release of 3.5, the mini rules were much more hardcoded in the system and better explained.  We spent an afternoon or two learning the rules and using them.  Eh, not bad, but I was not 100% sold.  I then moved abroad and visited my old group 2 years later and every year or so after this.  They were all in on minis at this point.  To be honest the games from then on became too much about 2 D grids, boxes, physical items and less about what made the game cool and exciting before- the exploration, drama, imagination and mystery, hell even the funny voices.  The gaming table also became the focus of the session, in the past we could play it on sofas, on the ground, wherever.  

I didn't really realize how sneaky those damn little pieces of plastic crack were until just now.

Girls, maybe let's go discussing RPG market, rather then try shoehorning 1001 metaphors for other markets?

Why going with YA novels will not be an instant success for RPG market?

Because in the age you read YA novels, you are too busy chasing tail to play RPGs. It's one of 4e mistakes - they aimed their game at the people of a certain age. The age that the people who played DnD usually actuall dropped out of RPGs, because they were too busy "trying to be cool and get laid".

RPGs aren't a hip product, (sadly?). And trying to sell them as the new hip thing failed.

Quote from: Rincewind1;513704Girls, maybe let's go discussing RPG market, rather then try shoehorning 1001 metaphors for other markets?

Why going with YA novels will not be an instant success for RPG market?

Because in the age you read YA novels, you are too busy chasing tail to play RPGs. It's one of 4e mistakes - they aimed their game at the people of a certain age. The age that the people who played DnD usually actuall dropped out of RPGs, because they were too busy "trying to be cool and get laid".

RPGs aren't a hip product, (sadly?). And trying to sell them as the new hip thing failed.

Most people I know that play RPGs started between 11-13 ( usually late elementary or the beginning of middle school/junior high. But lots of people that still play are well over thirty. Maybe this is why it was a good idea to have the old basic boxes availabke along side the more advanced edition (it also may be an argument to put "advanced" back in the title). When I was a kd, my interest in rpgs coincided with my sudden interest in fantasy movies. I was in third Or fourh grade when i played my first game. Probably bought my first rule book a year or two later. But back then the choice was clear: basic red set or advanced rule book. So i bought the basic set first, which helped ease me into the mechanics if rpgs.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;513708Most people I know that play RPGs started between 11-13 ( usually late elementary or the beginning of middle school/junior high. But lots of people that still play are well over thirty. Maybe this is why it was a good idea to have the old basic boxes availabke along side the more advanced edition (it also may be an argument to put "advanced" back in the title). When I was a kd, my interest in rpgs coincided with my sudden interest in fantasy movies. I was in third Or fourh grade when i played my first game. Probably bought my first rule book a year or two later. But back then the choice was clear: basic red set or advanced rule book. So i bought the basic set first, which helped ease me into the mechanics if rpgs.

You are right. I did make a mistake here and somewhat swap in my mind Harry Potter with Twilight*. Which does raise an interesting question, why nobody tries to make an RPG aimed for HP. Or the new thin on the block, Hunger Games. Maybe it's license costs. Twilight stuff, on the other hand, is mostly ages 15 - 20 and the Housewives - both people who are either 1) too busy trying to get laid or 2) too busy to get laid to play RPGs.

Then again - once you are hooked on YA stuff, it's often natural progression to go Tolkien/Howard, then DnD. And those who do that progression, are the natural RPG customers.

I'd say that the key here is really a cheap product, that'll also give the parents a safety of mind, as they arent' buying Just Another Video Game, but Something That Will Help With Imaginaaaaaaation.

*Which, ironically relevant to another discussion, is the genre problem - what constitutes typical Young Adult Fiction and what does not.

Quote from: Rincewind1;513704Girls, maybe let's go discussing RPG market, rather then try shoehorning 1001 metaphors for other markets?

Rince, you didn't even read what I said, did you?

"In my opinion, RPG publishers need to grab these genre-fan kids right now. Get them interested in D&D, or whatever. They can be a new fanbase for the future. Ignore them, and the RPG fanbase will continue to age."

Which is, as Brendan pointed out, a really good idea.

A basic "everything in this box" set for D&D would be a great starter kit for this generation. (And maybe something for the PA Hunger Games crowd and other genres.)

A clear upgrade path to the "real" rules, after level 5 or so would seem to be a great approach.

Then, once they're hooked on RPG's, they can move into more advanced fare.

You guys went off too much into the "let's actually discuss book market" . I did jump to a false (or at least not exactly the conclusion using all data) too fast though.

Both you and Tristam are right. RPGs should be aimed at YA crowd more. But at the same time - the YA crowd who usually shows interest in RPGs, are the people who also seek out the fantasy books that are inspiration for RPGs.

In other words, a certain medium should be constructed.

Another problem is, of course, the social stigma of RPGs. It's still present. A bit less, but still.

Quote from: Rincewind1;513713Another problem is, of course, the social stigma of RPGs. It's still present. A bit less, but still.

This is also why 11-13 is a good target age for starter sets. When I first got involved in D&D i was very much unaware of the stigma attached to it ( or to the fantasy genre itself). Had I been exposed a few years later, when being cool wasmmore impoertant, who knows if I would even agreed to play.

Another thing about gaming that is a hurdle to getting new players. On the surface it looks boring as hell. I still remember the first time I showed up to game. My 2 friends (who were the opposite of what you think of when you imagine gamers) were going on and on about this great game they discovered. It sounded awesome and I figured it was a video game based on their description. When I arrived to play there were just a bunch of notebooks, pencils, dice and sheets of paper. It looked like homework to me. But the moment I started playing, I was hooked.

QuoteThis is also why 11-13 is a good target age for starter sets. When I first got involved in D&D i was very much unaware of the stigma attached to it ( or to the fantasy genre itself). Had I been exposed a few years later, when being cool wasmmore impoertant, who knows if I would even agreed to play.

Indeed. Which is why we should aim more for the stuff like Hobbit of nowadays ages (The last such book I remember is Lemmony Snickett, pardon if I got the spelling wrong), rather then Twilight.

QuoteAnother thing about gaming that is a hurdle to getting new players. On the surface it looks boring as hell. I still remember the first time I showed up to game. My 2 friends (who were the opposite of what you think of when you imagine gamers) were going on and on about this great game they discovered. It sounded awesome and I figured it was a video game based on their description. When I arrived to play there were just a bunch of notebooks, pencils, dice and sheets of paper. It looked like homework to me. But the moment I started playing, I was hooked.

I'd say that it's the general fear of new things. I myself introduced quite a lot of people into RPGs - I'm active at the gaming club, and I'm slowly often more and more leading the charge, as RPGs are concerned. At our last big thing, I just put out the RPG books next to the board games stand, the best RPG books I could get - all hard cover, all with nice fronts, and started recruiting people, asking them if they'd not wish to try something new.

There was one funny story - a colleague of mine brought a son to the party, a kid of about 10 years old. At first the kid didn't want to play. 30 minutes into the first session (and we're talking here  the most basic of basic adventures - I was using 3e starting set, I think it was the "Goblins kidnapped the Unicorn" adventure), none of the people at the table (and everyone was playing for the first time) wanted to leave, demanding another go .

Just extend a hand. Not every game must be Heroes Fighting Against Darker Side Of Their Soul. As much as it is cliche, perhaps sometimes it's good to start with "You sit in the tavern, drinking your last money. As the gust of cold wind enters the room, you look to the opened door, and see this odd man entering inside, scanning the room...."

Then again - I had introduced people by means of Call of Cthulhu & Trail of Cthulhu. The key is to utilise teachings of good old Hitchcock - start with an earthquake and only go upper. Give them an intrigue that'll make them feel comfortable with investigating it, give them a good moment to start, to get into the character, and then it'll spin on.

Quote from: Teazia;5137023e did a really dirty subtle backdoor job with minis.  When they released D&D Minis (the plastic ones) my old group had up to that point been completely narrative.  We initially played 3e narrativelyl, and things were good, but once those pieces of plastic crack were introduced, I found that we started implementing some of the tactical rules from 3e, even thought they made no sense and we basically winged it (we had ignored the 2e rules in C&T).  We had all played and enjoyed FF Tactics so it was rather exotic and interesting at first, and we used all kinds of odds and ends to represent monsters and 3D terrain.  

Cut to the release of 3.5, the mini rules were much more hardcoded in the system and better explained.  We spent an afternoon or two learning the rules and using them.  Eh, not bad, but I was not 100% sold.  I then moved abroad and visited my old group 2 years later and every year or so after this.  They were all in on minis at this point.  To be honest the games from then on became too much about 2 D grids, boxes, physical items and less about what made the game cool and exciting before- the exploration, drama, imagination and mystery, hell even the funny voices.  The gaming table also became the focus of the session, in the past we could play it on sofas, on the ground, wherever.  

I didn't really realize how sneaky those damn little pieces of plastic crack were until just now.

Exactly what happened to my game. Except we didn't even use actual miniatures. Just coins.

Idea: Try getting the YA readers into the idea of roleplaying via a return to "Choose Your Own Adventure" style books, with rudamentary rules for creating your character as part of the book. Role up a super-basic character and then start your day at Sweet Valley High or whatever, trying to pass that algebra test while figuring out how to score a date with the cute guy in the third row. May not be the best idea, but certainly do-able and might possibly work.

Quote from: Werekoala;513755Idea: Try getting the YA readers into the idea of roleplaying via a return to "Choose Your Own Adventure" style books, with rudamentary rules for creating your character as part of the book. Role up a super-basic character and then start your day at Sweet Valley High or whatever, trying to pass that algebra test while figuring out how to score a date with the cute guy in the third row. May not be the best idea, but certainly do-able and might possibly work.

Again, it won't work because computer games already cover that - plenty of Japanese and freeware games in that spirit that emulate just that.

Not to mention Dating Sims.

If anything, use computers as a medium to interest people in it, rather then try shoehorning that into the printed market.

Quote from: Rincewind1;513756Again, it won't work because computer games already cover that - plenty of Japanese and freeware games in that spirit that emulate just that.

Not to mention Dating Sims.

If anything, use computers as a medium to interest people in it. But then again, the most of them will just pass over to CRPGs.

Yeah but we've just had several pages of discussion and data supporting the fact that the YA market is booming - and those are books people read, ya know? So sneaking in something to the book shelves like I suggested might work. Might not. Just a thought.