I think middle-aged housewives already have slash fiction to share among themselves, yes? But hey, it couldn't hurt.

As far as weird demographics go, looking at roleplaying online I'm guessing there's been a growth in collaborative storytelling/roleplaying online on messageboards and whatnot - with more younger women appearing. This is something that tends to be done without any game mechanics though. Not sure how many of them would even have heard of D&D.

Quote from: Sommerjon;513391Guess I would question how these 'new consumers' could so easily figure out what 'core rulebook' meant, but got stumped on what players handbook 2 or 3  dmg 2 or mm2 or 3 meant.

What you're talking about are layers of complexity.

The easiest scenario would be if there were no supplemental products at all: There's just one product that says "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS" on it. If you're interested in D&D or if you just come across a shelf full of D&D products, there's no potential for confusion at all.

That, of course, is impractical given the realities of the D&D market.

Something like Arkham Horror increases that complexity by one step: There are a bunch of different products that all have "ARKHAM HORROR" on the cover. But there's only one that says "ARKHAM HORROR" and nothing else. All of the other products are clearly labeled "EXPANSION". If you're looking at a wall full of Arkham Horror products, it's completely intuitive to figure out which one is the core product you need to buy first. (Dominion uses a similar method.)

Then we get to something like D&D 3.0. Here you've got a whole bunch of different products all labeled "D&D" and they've all got different individual titles. To someone looking at a shelf full of D&D material, this is a lot more confusing. But, fortunately, there's a keyword: If you can figure out that "core rulebook" identifies the products that you need, then you can track those down. Alternatively, someone can just tell you: "You need the PHB, DMG, and MM."

Early 4th Edition eliminates they keyword, so it's more difficult to figure it out for new players. And if someone's trying to give you a list of books, they need to specify which PHB, DMG, and MM they're talking about. (Well, except that last one: Because you can really get away with any of the MMs, and the math isn't actually "fixed" until MM3 so maybe it's better to go with that one, but...)

And then you get the Essentials, which is even more confusing by itself (with even well-informed fans being strongly divided on which books you "really" need). In combination with the other 4th Edition books, of course, it's complete chaos.

It's not that any of these things are insurmountable obstacles to new customers. They're clearly not. But every one of them is an extra little barrier. And, yeah, some new customers are going to be turned away by it. Opportunities to attract new gamers will be missed.

And specifically because games spread virally, every new customer you miss becomes four or six or a dozen players you missed because that new customer didn't introduce them to the game. (People often say this stuff doesn't matter because people get introduced to the game by other people. But the exact opposite is actually true.)

Quote from: Soylent Green;513538There you have it. Design a roleplaying game aimed at middle-aged housewives and you've saved the industry.

Fixed your post, mate.

Quote from: TristramEvans;513440Romance novels outsell every other genre pretty much 3:1.

May be true, but it's kind of orthogonal to my point. We're talking about SF (speculative fiction) genres, which is what most RPG's are. And in Spec-fic, YA rules the roost.

The argument was "kids aren't reading". Which is false. Kids are reading, a lot, to the point where YA has become the big dog in spec-fic.

That Romance is thriving among housewives is interesting (and I suspect the really big YA series which crossover into the adult population tap into that demographic), but beside the point of the argument.

Spec-fic is dominated by YA, because adolescents read SF more than adults. A lot more.

So "kids ain't reading" is bullshit.

Quote from: TristramEvans;513440Actually, the largest market for books in North America right now is middle-aged housewives.

Romance novels outsell every other genre pretty much 3:1.

Whilst thats true, they also make a big chunk of fans in other genres. In fact, fantasy is a popular genre for middle-aged housewives, and they make a larger portion of fantasy's readership than you might expect.

Quote from: Soylent Green;513538There you have it. Design a roleplaying game aimed at middle-aged housewives and you've saved the hobby.

Or ruined it.

There's a vast difference between hobby and industry. I'd not mind some "housewives" at my table, though. The gayparty meter would drop a bit.

Quote from: Soylent Green;513538There you have it. Design a roleplaying game aimed at middle-aged housewives and you've saved the hobby.

The ones I know tend to play/GM OSR games like Labyrinth Lord, because they are simple, clear, and free online - they make a good chassis for any fantasy-genre pbem, pbp etc.

I remember a few housewives playing NWN.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;513674May be true, but it's kind of orthogonal to my point. We're talking about SF (speculative fiction) genres, which is what most RPG's are.

And most romance novels these days, actually. But the romance novels comment was incidental. Middle aged housewives buy an estimated 80% of ALL books sold in North America.

QuoteAnd in Spec-fic, YA rules the roost.

Actually, in spec-fic, romance still rules the roost. Fantasy and horror are the two biggest sub-genres in romance right now.

QuoteThe argument was "kids aren't reading". Which is false. Kids are reading, a lot, to the point where YA has become the big dog in spec-fic.

(snip)

Spec-fic is dominated by YA, because adolescents read SF more than adults. A lot more.

That's actually not true, as can be found simply by googling bestseller numbers for the last year. While I agree that the statement "kids aren't reading" is pretty much hyperbolic nonsense, YA fiction simply has never touched the numbers done by adult fiction in any genre, including fantasy and sci-fi.

Of course, one of the reasons for this is probably that most YAs would rather read adult books.

QuoteAnd most romance novels these days, actually. But the romance novels comment was incidental. Middle aged housewives buy an estimated 80% of ALL books sold in North America.

I'm trying a wrong market it seems. And my English might be just good enough for such writing anyway!

Quote from: Skywalker;513681Whilst thats true, they also make a big chunk of fans in other genres. In fact, fantasy is a popular genre for middle-aged housewives, and they make a larger portion of fantasy's readership than you might expect.

Middle aged housewives are the biggest readers for EVERY genre. Romance just happens to be the most popular.

The thing is, reading fantasy doesn't require a person to be creative. Playing an RPG does.

Quote from: TristramEvans;513686That's actually not true, as can be found simply by googling bestseller numbers for the last year.

Which bestseller lists are you looking at? Because many venues, including the New York Times, responded to Harry Potter's success by yanking all the YA/Children titles off the bestseller lists and sticking them in a ghetto.

QuoteWhile I agree that the statement "kids aren't reading" is pretty much hyperbolic nonsense, YA fiction simply has never touched the numbers done by adult fiction in any genre, including fantasy and sci-fi.

For example, the USA Today Top 100 list for 2010 lists 20 YA spec-fic titles before the the first non-YA SF title shows up. (And the non-YA SF I'm talking about is The Lovely Bones, which wasn't actually marketed as SF.)

2011's showing is a little better: Only 5 YA SF titles out-perform A Game of Thrones (the highest non-YA SF title). But even with George R.R. Martin and Stephen King mixing things up a bit more last year, the SF titles on the USA Top 100 list for the past two years are completely dominated by YA titles.

So if we're going by bestseller lists, I'd have to say that you claim that YA SF titles "have never touched" non-YA SF titles in terms of sales doesn't seem to have any truth to it.

Quote from: TristramEvans;513686That's actually not true, as can be found simply by googling bestseller numbers for the last year.

Professional authors and editors disagree with your assessment.

Author Karen Healey, Strange Horizons: "Speculative works aimed at young people don't just dominate young adult literature sales; they dominate fiction sales."

And on the usefulness of bestseller lists (same source):

"The Harry Potter series famously prompted the split of the New York Times bestseller lists into Adult and Children's, and then further split Children's into "series" and "individual" titles."

In other words, YA was so dominant, it was split off into its own bestseller category, and that category further split into two. So when you see bestsellers, the list is specifically designed to exclude YA. If they included YA, Harry Potter, Twilight, and their successors would occupy most of the top 10.

Literary Agent Laurie McLean, Ask the Agent: "Young adult: This is not a genre, per se, but one of the healthiest and fastest growing categories in fiction."

The Boston Globe: "Hardcover copies of books for young adults (known as YA books) are a few dollars less than adult releases, but the huge sales numbers still have the books earning more money at the register.

"This reader-driven trend has changed the scope and priorities of the publishing industry. Six years after the release of the first “Twilight’’ book, literary agencies have restructured themselves to account for strong young adult sales. Publishers continue to increase the number of YA acquisitions."

Chicago Tribune: "Fifteen years ago Susan Katz sat down with HarperCollins' editor-in-chief to... considered whether they should stop publishing young adult books altogether. Now, young adult book sales make up about 25 percent of the company's revenues - and they're growing."

An article originally published in Newsweek: "The book business may be flat, but there's at least one bright spot: the booming sales of books for teens."

"t started with the Harry Potter books, which have "generated a passion for reading in an entire generation of preteens and teens and many have taken that passion with them to other books." Martin suggests that the Potter series has captured the interest of young readers who otherwise would never read fantasy, or read at all, and instilled in them an enthusiasm for reading in general."

Radio Boston: "“Y.A.” books, as they’re also known, are one of the few bright spots in the publishing industry these days. For example, in the first half of 2009, sales of grownup fiction dropped almost 18 percent. Y.A. sales, on the other hand, grew by 30 percent in the same period."

The Hollywood Reporter: "Which summer hardcover has the largest first printing? Dead Reckoning, the new Sookie Stackhouse novel by Charlaine Harris? Nope. How about the Tom Clancy thriller Against All Enemies? Guess again. David Baldacci's One Summer? Uh-uh. It's a kids book: the 1 million printing of Jeff Kinney's Wimpy Kid Do-It-Yourself Book."

"Juvenile/YA sales now surpass adult trade fiction and nonfiction sales combined. As recently as 2006, adult trade and juvenile/YA sales were about even at 474 million and 464 million books, respectively. But in 2011, Greco projects that Americans will buy 484 million juvenile/YA books and 411 million adult trade books."

I am not a literary agent, editor, or author. All I can do is read what those people say, and the above is what they're saying.

I follow several author, editor, and agent blogs. YA sales are strong and growing, and writers interested in making more money are shifting towards writing YA books.

That, at least, is the information I'm getting. Perhaps we're looking at things from different directions, or you're looking at different numbers than I am.

But, according to the information I have available, the trend is real and (as of right now) growing. Of course, as those children age, they may begin buying more adult literature. Things change constantly in publishing.

tl;dr: (and to bring this back to an RPG basis) In my opinion, RPG publishers need to grab these genre-fan kids right now. Get them interested in D&D, or whatever. They can be a new fanbase for the future. Ignore them, and the RPG fanbase will continue to age.