TheRPGSite

This blows me away.

Take a look at this Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-an-evolution-of-gaming-min), especially the miniature rewards for each level and the amount they have raised so far.

I've signed up for $100.



(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/130/603/d16a85bc18693a9888d179936b4e73fa_large.jpg?1345920839)

Well then...

(http://i.qkme.me/355ft6.jpg)

Ye gods did they achieve almost a hundred times their goal? :-o

Spider centaurs: love it.

$100 for 215 miniatures :)

They're plastic, but it's still a good deal.  I think I'm going to increase my donation to get that HUGE FUCKING GOD OF DRACOLICHES too.

Nethyrmaul, the undying.

They seem to have raised about 10% of an educated guess as to the total annual sales of printed matter in the RPG industry.

I backed it at the $100 level, too. It just seems a deal too good to pass up.

Which makes me worry. I know Reaper is no fly-by-night company, but going in with the need for $30,000 and getting more than $2 million makes me wonder if they're prepared to fill that many orders. The estimated delivery date is March, but I gotta think to expect delivery around next summer.

I'm pretty excited about the potential to "give back" the Sophia on a motorcycle for a $25 credit, too.

Given how my interest in minis went up with Savage Worlds, the timing just absolutely sucks, especially for a big buy-in...those looks sweet, though.

Didn't realize they were plastic, either. I actually dig that. Does that mean they'll be closer to affordable than what I feel like minis are when they hit the market later?

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;576037Given how my interest in minis went up with Savage Worlds, the timing just absolutely sucks, especially for a big buy-in...those looks sweet, though.

Didn't realize they were plastic, either. I actually dig that. Does that mean they'll be closer to affordable than what I feel like minis are when they hit the market later?

Yes. The success of this kickstarter means a wider variety of affordable minis for the market. I got a pack of 6 kobolds for 4.00 and a gnoll warrior for 2.49.

Some sculpts are as cheap as 2.00

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;576037Given how my interest in minis went up with Savage Worlds, the timing just absolutely sucks, especially for a big buy-in...those looks sweet, though.

From what I understand watching one of the videos, you'll have an opportunity to take advantage of similar deals even after the kickstarter ends, if that's what you mean by bad timing.

I also gotta think that this early investment for the molds being taken care of, in terms of them basically already being paid for, the models themselves then would be a lot cheaper than the way these things are usually done.

In other words, I don't think you're losing out that much by not getting in as a backer during the kickstarter.

Quote from: Kaz;576036I'm pretty excited about the potential to "give back" the Sophia on a motorcycle for a $25 credit, too.

Those limited edition Sophies go for a lot after the fact.  I'm surprised that they're releasing that ReaperCon Sophie collection, I bet there's going to be some collector types who are pretty pissed about it.

I've been in for $220.  That keeps going up it seems every couple days when they reach new goals :)

Let me start by saying that it looks like a good deal and kudos for anyone who takes them up on it.  More power to you.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems to run contrary to the purpose of 'crowd funding' to me.  I've always looked at things like Kickstarter as a way the common man can get a leg up and get the ball rolling.  Average Joe has an idea, but can't fund it - enter Kickstarter.

I'm not exactly calling Reaper out as 'the establishment', but they're clearly not 'Average Joe' either.  They have a name out there, and are certainly not any sort of new comer.

Again, I don't 'oppose' this behavior, but if the next step is WalMart 'kickstarting' something, then I think the point will have been lost...

Just sayin.

Quote from: mcbobbo;576060Let me start by saying that it looks like a good deal and kudos for anyone who takes them up on it.  More power to you.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems to run contrary to the purpose of 'crowd funding' to me.  I've always looked at things like Kickstarter as a way the common man can get a leg up and get the ball rolling.  Average Joe has an idea, but can't fund it - enter Kickstarter.

I'm not exactly calling Reaper out as 'the establishment', but they're clearly not 'Average Joe' either.  They have a name out there, and are certainly not any sort of new comer.

Again, I don't 'oppose' this behavior, but if the next step is WalMart 'kickstarting' something, then I think the point will have been lost...

Just sayin.

On their intro video about this kickstarter the reasoning behind it was explained.

The Bones line of minis was already a reality. The molds for these are way more expensive than regular molds even though the actual material used for the minis is cheaper.

They had planned to grow the line slowly and steadily as cash for the molds became available.

The kickstarter is the result of fans wanting a much larger selection of Bones sculpts and wanting them RIGHT NOW.

So its either tell the fans, sorry we don't have the cash to produce that many molds right now or fire up the kickstarter.

I don't mind established companies getting funding this way. At least you know that you will get what you pay for, which isn't always a guarantee from no name startups.

Quote from: mcbobbo;576060Let me start by saying that it looks like a good deal and kudos for anyone who takes them up on it.  More power to you.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems to run contrary to the purpose of 'crowd funding' to me.  I've always looked at things like Kickstarter as a way the common man can get a leg up and get the ball rolling.  Average Joe has an idea, but can't fund it - enter Kickstarter..

I think that was the intent.  But a lot of companies are using it essentially as a pre-order platform.

I know SJG with Ogre pissed off A LOT of retail stores, because those stores did pre-orders and then SJG released kickstarter, which resulted in everyone cancelling their pre-orders at the stores and supporting kickstarter instead.

That sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

That is amazing.  Thanks for pointing it out.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576074I know SJG with Ogre pissed off A LOT of retail stores, because those stores did pre-orders and then SJG released kickstarter, which resulted in everyone cancelling their pre-orders at the stores and supporting kickstarter instead.

That sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

wow, that is a dick move.  i'm sure bricks & mortar stores are having a tough enough time as it is.

If I was still using this stuff, I'd be in at $100. That's a lot of miniatures.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576074I think that was the intent.  But a lot of companies are using it essentially as a pre-order platform.

I know SJG with Ogre pissed off A LOT of retail stores, because those stores did pre-orders and then SJG released kickstarter, which resulted in everyone cancelling their pre-orders at the stores and supporting kickstarter instead.

That sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Ouch! I hadn't heard about that one.

I supported at the Vampire level. Just too good a deal to pass up.

Quote from: Melan;576134If I was still using this stuff, I'd be in at $100. That's a lot of miniatures.

that's my deal, too.  i can't justify the $$ for a lot of stuff i wouldn't use.  fascinating to see how this KS is going, though.

I'm in for $100.  I'm hoping to use it to form the core for a heroquest/warhammer quest clone.  I just need to find some rules for that style of play.  You have damn near a mix of everykind of monster you could want and plenty of heroes.  I think if I tack on one of the dragons as an option before the end, I should be set.

I'm in for 125. Vampire level + two cases. I'm trading in my Sophie on a motorcycle for the $25 to get the second case. I might get some of those deep-sea fish dudes too.

Quote from: languagegeek;576289I'm in for 125. Vampire level + two cases. I'm trading in my Sophie on a motorcycle for the $25 to get the second case. I might get some of those deep-sea fish dudes too.

How do you trade Sophie for the $25 again?

Quote from: Benoist;576292How do you trade Sophie for the $25 again?

AH yes that's going to be available as an option AFTER the kickstarter is over, apparently.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576057Those limited edition Sophies go for a lot after the fact.  I'm surprised that they're releasing that ReaperCon Sophie collection, I bet there's going to be some collector types who are pretty pissed about it.

Eh. There apparently will be a lot of these going on, and if I was interested in investments, I'd do it elsewhere. Though a tiny part of me thinks it might be cool to drop a succubus on a motorcylce in a modern game, the reality is I'd only use it once, and I'd get much more use out of, say, some demons and a pair of giants.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;576299Eh. There apparently will be a lot of these going on, and if I was interested in investments, I'd do it elsewhere. Though a tiny part of me thinks it might be cool to drop a succubus on a motorcylce in a modern game, the reality is I'd only use it once, and I'd get much more use out of, say, some demons and a pair of giants.

Ditto to that. I considered the Collector's value, but at the end of the day, my minis are for gaming, not gambling/showcasing.

Quote from: Benoist;576304Ditto to that. I considered the Collector's value, but at the end of the day, my minis are for gaming, not gambling/showcasing.

That's me too.  Sophie is getting traded for another case.

Dammit, that $100 level is a pretty good deal.  Those sculpts are amazing, and although I prefer the humanoids to the monsters, they are all very nice quality.

If only my paints hadn't dried up in storage a number of years ago...

Quote from: StormBringer;576309Dammit, that $100 level is a pretty good deal.  Those sculpts are amazing, and although I prefer the humanoids to the monsters, they are all very nice quality.

If only my paints hadn't dried up in storage a number of years ago...

I got lucky.  I still have a bunch of TSR paints from the early 90s that still are good.  I mixed them with water before storing them, and when I broke them out, about 80% of them were still good with a little more water.

You could trade Sophie for some paint. ;)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576311I got lucky.  I still have a bunch of TSR paints from the early 90s that still are good.  I mixed them with water before storing them, and when I broke them out, about 80% of them were still good with a little more water.

I reconstituted my Polly-S paints the last time, I don't know if it will work twice.  I guess I don't lose anything for trying, right?

Quote from: Benoist;576315You could trade Sophie for some paint. ;)

Insanity!  That is one of the models that sweetens the deal for me.  :)

Pledged $145.  I wants me some dragons.

Quote from: Kaz;576043From what I understand watching one of the videos, you'll have an opportunity to take advantage of similar deals even after the kickstarter ends, if that's what you mean by bad timing.

I also gotta think that this early investment for the molds being taken care of, in terms of them basically already being paid for, the models themselves then would be a lot cheaper than the way these things are usually done.

In other words, I don't think you're losing out that much by not getting in as a backer during the kickstarter.

Yeah, car repairs, moving, hours recently cut at work (but rebounding now) and the holidays (including wife's and son's birthdays) approaching means I don't have the money to kick in on a big Kickstarter right now...but I love affordable miniatures, even if they are solid color and not pre-paints (and mine will stay solid color, because I haven't the time, patience or skill to paint).

Did... did this just go from two to two point seven million bucks in the last day? :eek:

Quote from: Melan;576419Did... did this just go from two to two point seven million bucks in the last day? :eek:

Yes, yes it did.

Holy crap.

And as of posting this, there are still 13 hours to go.

Beautiful work though, I have absolutely no use for them but my inner young teen self is howling want Want WANT!! Nngh. I'm saving up for expensive dice so this will have to wait.

Amazing deal.

whoa, $2.8 mil with 8 hours to go.  talk about exceeding expectations!

Quote from: The Traveller;576425Beautiful work though, I have absolutely no use for them but my inner young teen self is howling want Want WANT!! Nngh. I'm saving up for expensive dice so this will have to wait.

I'm almost 40 and my inner teen still runs the show :)

Everyone has their vices, and minis tend to be mine.  So this is like winning the lottery.

Couldn't resist any longer. Went for vampire + figure case + nekkid Sophie upgrade.

This is gonna be awesome. :)

3 hours to go and has now topped $3 mil.

this is INSANE

Hm. This is interesting...

QuoteWe are going old school! Every Vampire or Undertaker Level pledge will receive Frog God Games pdf of Swords & Wizardry Complete Rules. Play the game the way it was meant to be played... Original edition rules, original edition feel. Put those miniatures to work in this award winning game.

That's the three million stretch goal, I'd expect many of the buyers were wargamers but I wonder how much coverage this will bring to RPGs in general?

http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/?page_id=2

QuoteWhat is the Swords & Wizardry Project?

The Goal:

To reawaken the hobbyist-gamer and put to rest the consumer-gamer, to break out of the miasma of RPG consumer-think, and to re-ignite the original wide-horizon view of fantasy roleplaying and its potential. That goal turns out to be connected to a particular style of gaming — using open-ended, vague rules, where the referee is truly a referee, not just an opponent for the other players. You’ll see why if you read onward. And yes, this is indeed the style of gaming called “DM fiat” by those who don’t like it. If you’ve been told that “DM fiat” is evil and bad, well … welcome to the dark side. You’re in its lair.

I can see that going down well in some quarters. :D Good job Frog God Games for hitching their wagon to the right horse.

Heh, just under two hours to go, Sophie seeing how high it will get...


(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/130/348/ed5e278e337da028d813b1ee20f5a7ec_large.jpg?1345899494)

This is pretty nuts.

love that pic :D

now i'm waffling on blowing $100.  dunno i i'd ever get to use them, but the scuplts look great and the deal is pretty phenomenal. . . :banghead:

eta:  hells, went for it anyway.  the vampire level was just too good, plus pirates sold me on it.  threw in another 10 for the mythos monsters, too :sigh:

I upped to $200.  Worst case I'll just go for two vampires, but there's a lot of options that I want too.

i have no doubt they'll hit that 3.32 mil mark before it's over.

I am not moved by the undead dragon reward.  There already is an undead dragon reward, and I don't foresee myself needing 2.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576557I am not moved by the undead dragon reward.  There already is an undead dragon reward, and I don't foresee myself needing 2.

But.. Orcs.. you can NEVER have too many orcs!

Now it's obvious.  What was I holding out for?

THIS!

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/130/756/9d7fb45f8a1da565776c898aee326721_large.jpg?1345928631)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576557I am not moved by the undead dragon reward.  There already is an undead dragon reward, and I don't foresee myself needing 2.

I think it's pretty cool, but I had to put a lid on the extras somewhere...

A buddy and I both put $50 and bought in at Vampire. He wanted some of the options so he made the actual payment.

This is a crazy deal.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576563Now it's obvious.  What was I holding out for?

THIS!

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/130/756/9d7fb45f8a1da565776c898aee326721_large.jpg?1345928631)

WANT! Dang! And I just upped my contribution.

I'm in with 22 minutes to go. Damn you Sacrosanct! :D

Awesome compiled scale pics: http://www.reapermini.com/misc/KS_DragonsScale.jpg http://www.reapermini.com/misc/KS_OgresScale.jpg http://www.reapermini.com/misc/KS_DemonScale.jpg http://www.shakandara.com/img/demonscale.jpg http://www.shakandara.com/img/dragonscale.jpg http://www.shakandara.com/img/giantscale.jpg http://www.shakandara.com/img/wyrmscale.jpg http://www.shakandara.com/img/spiritscale.jpg http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics5/img3fd10ea127120.jpg http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs9/i/2006/039/d/3/Ebonwrath_Dragon_by_Fantasy_Visions.jpg http://www.reapermini.com/forum/uploads/post-4-1112495712.jpg http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=4250

Sorry formatting got messed up...

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;576569WANT! Dang! And I just upped my contribution.

The pledge actually went down.  It was 2,414,000 and after a minute it went down to 2,402,000.


Something is odd here...

Just pledged $105 to be able to replace Sophie with three $10 add ons...

And now kickstarter has crashed with 7 minutes left

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576576And now kickstarter has crashed with 7 minutes left

Still online and at 3.41 Mil for me.

Gettin' 503's here.

... and it's crashed for me too. LOL

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;576581Gettin' 503's here.

Me too.  With the last reward at 3.430,000, it sure was odd to see the pledge amount continue to decrease and then a final 503 error

But did just get this email:

 Project Update #56: C'THULHU ACHIEVED!
Posted by Reaper Miniatures Like

WE DID IT!!

OFFICIALLY The #3 KICKSTARTER OF ALL TIME!!

You guys have been absolutely AMAZING!! This has been the most incredible Ride!

Email said Cthulhu achieved.

That's amazing. 3.42 million dollars...

Oh god, and now the shitstorm begins as the people trying to get in at the last minute got screwed.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;576585Email said Cthulhu achieved.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't get that yet, time to check mine!

Quote from: CRKrueger;576587Oh god, and now the shitstorm begins as the people trying to get in at the last minute got screwed.

Where? How?

Quote from: Benoist;576589Where? How?

I assume it will happen, people tried to fund it at the last minute, the KS site got overloaded...the wailing and gnashing of teeth will be heard.

Reapermini Forums are now gone too for me.

Holy shit..

Quote from: Benoist;576593Holy shit..

Ia! Ia!

I'm satisfied :)

I just couldn't bring myself to do it at this time, as much as I wanted to.  But, thanks to everyone who did support them, when the new figs hit the stores, I will have an even better selection to choose from when I get off my lazy ass and start painting again.  :)

I like my Polly-S, but they are hard to come by these days.  Anyone want to recommend a good acrylic paint?

I find the mindset behind the late bidders to be a bit of a mystery.

I found out about the offering rather early, being a long time direct customer of theirs (at one time we even had one of their employees in our gaming group) I was on their mailing list.

I wasn't thrilled with plastics (I like the feel of metal a lot more), and I would have little use for many of the individual figures in the set. So I watched it for a few days until it hit 100 figures for $100 and decided that's a good enough price return- I'm in. That happened at around the $250K level.

So with where I was coming from, I don't understand why people waited until the last minute for this. Was getting Cthulhu really a make or break item?

Quote from: gleichman;576607Was getting Cthulhu really a make or break item?

Probably not, but I bet a lot of people wanted to increase their pledges by the appropriate amount so they could get him.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576596Ia! Ia!

I'm satisfied :)

me too!  glad i got mine in--now to wait for the survey and choose the big C as my add-on (just got back from dinner w/ the folks, crazy finish to this KS!) :eek: :cool:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576609Probably not, but I bet a lot of people wanted to increase their pledges by the appropriate amount so they could get him.

i upped my vampire level by 10 for the mythos monsters--to come home and see that cthulhu is also considered a $10 add-on, i'm happily surprised.

Quote from: gleichman;576607I find the mindset behind the late bidders to be a bit of a mystery.

I found out about the offering rather early, being a long time direct customer of theirs (at one time we even had one of their employees in our gaming group) I was on their mailing list.

I wasn't thrilled with plastics (I like the feel of metal a lot more), and I would have little use for many of the individual figures in the set. So I watched it for a few days until it hit 100 figures for $100 and decided that's a good enough price return- I'm in. That happened at around the $250K level.

So with where I was coming from, I don't understand why people waited until the last minute for this. Was getting Cthulhu really a make or break item?

As much as i'm sure it boosts your hipster 'before it was cool' self image, I didn't know about it until Jeff put it up here.  So late or not, I was perfectly happy with my 240+ figures for $100.  And plastics are a mature tech in figures, GW's been doing them for years and they look fine, IMO.

I refuse to think less of what I'm receiving because you decided to spend your money earlier.

They said you will be able to add more to your pledge after the kickstarter is over.

So for a little while you will be able to increase your pledge if you were undecided on any add ons.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576632As much as i'm sure it boosts your hipster 'before it was cool' self image,

Really? The very idea of a guy still stuck in the 80s gaming scene have a hipster image is amusing to no end.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576632I didn't know about it until Jeff put it up here.

He did that yesterday, and was beaten to it on this very website "]two days before that (//%5BQUOTE="Panzerkraken;576632).

But if you're saying that all the last minute bids are from people who didn't know about it, I suppose that's possible. Seems unlikely to me however.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576632As much as i'm sure it boosts your hipster 'before it was cool' self image, I didn't know about it until Jeff put it up here.  

Maybe one of the earlier booster levels was a carton of American Spirits  and a case of PBR, but they took that down when it started becoming  mainstream.

QuoteSo late or not, I was perfectly happy with my 240+ figures for $100.  And plastics are a mature tech in figures, GW's been doing them for years and they look fine, IMO.

Ok, I couldn't come up with 240 figures.  What am I missing?

QuoteI refuse to think less of what I'm receiving because you decided to spend your money earlier.

Or at all.

Quote from: gleichman;576651Really? The very idea of a guy still stuck in the 80s gaming scene have a hipster image is amusing to no end.

Glad to help.  Enjoy your ironic beard and skinny jeans, and watch out with that pizza.

QuoteBut if you're saying that all the last minute bids are from people who didn't know about it, I suppose that's possible. Seems unlikely to me however.

No, I was saying that your comments make it sound like a very self-appreciating ass, that's all.  I don't care how many last minute donations there were, or when your bid was, but the fact that you had to come on and make commentary reducing the value and impact of everyone else would normally lead me to wonder about your self-worth, but since I can tell you view yourself as an Rand protagonist, I know that's not the case.  

So it was clearly done with the intent of reducing other's view of the worth of their contribution (bids is very inaccurate, I think.  We were contributing to a cause, not bidding against anyone for something), which is very much a dick move on your part.  I wouldn't expect you to understand that though, for the exact reasons above.

Quote from: StormBringer;576668Maybe one of the earlier booster levels was a carton of American Spirits  and a case of PBR, but they took that down when it started becoming  mainstream.


Ok, I couldn't come up with 240 figures.  What am I missing?


Or at all.

From the kickstarter outline:

Vampire Level = Zombie Level + Ghast Level + Wraith Level + Mummy Level. 241minis: 240 Bones Plastic, and 1 Metal Sophie*!

I think Panzerkraken that you must have some self-image problems, because you're really overthinking this.

Forgetting about you (easily done) and directing this to people who don't feel their identity is in danger, is this type of last minute buy-in on kickstarter common?

I think generally yes.  An initial surge as the KS first comes on, then spikes as new stretch goals are revealed that really push it over the edge for someone.

In this case were there lots of people who were wanting to do it, but weren't sold then OMFGCTHULU!?!?!  Not sure.

Quote from: gleichman;576673I think Panzerkraken that you must have some self-image problems, because you're really overthinking this.

Forgetting about you (easily done) and directing this to people who don't feel their identity is in danger, is this type of last minute buy-in on kickstarter common?

Does it make a fucking bit of difference if it is?

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576671From the kickstarter outline:

Vampire Level = Zombie Level + Ghast Level + Wraith Level + Mummy Level. 241minis: 240 Bones Plastic, and 1 Metal Sophie*!

Also, this link is very handy to help calculate what minis you want and how much you needed to pledge

http://www.niagaragamers.net/index.php/usa-canada-shipping

Quote from: gleichman;576673[Y]ou must have some self-image problem (...)

Forgetting about you (easily done)

Nice.

Quote from: gleichman;576673I think Panzerkraken that you must have some self-image problems, because you're really overthinking this.

Over the past decade or so, has it ever occurred to you to ask yourself why you find yourself in arguments with just about everyone?

Quote from: CRKrueger;576674I think generally yes.  An initial surge as the KS first comes on, then spikes as new stretch goals are revealed that really push it over the edge for someone.

That interesting. I frankly don't know what to make of it.

Do you think it's a bit word of mouth as the people who buy-in early are somewhat iffy about if it was a good idea. But then they get excited as new stuff is piled on? I will say it was fun getting updates saying I had new figures throughout the week...

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576671From the kickstarter outline:

Vampire Level = Zombie Level + Ghast Level + Wraith Level + Mummy Level. 241minis: 240 Bones Plastic, and 1 Metal Sophie*!

I saw that part.

Zombie Level - Forum Badge
Ghast Level - Dungeon Pack - Kick off your new campaign by hurling a 36 miniature horde  of goblins, kobolds and rats...
Wraith Level - Sophie kick-starting her motorcycle
    Mummy Level - 1 each of the 30 new Bones miniatures.


By my count, that is 67.


I am guessing the Ghast level is 12 goblins, 12 Kobolds, and 12 Rats.  36 miniatures.  The Mummy level is a full set of the new line they are introducing after the Kickstarter, total 30 pcs.  And Sophie.  Everyone has been saying there are 240 miniatures for the $100 level, and I am not seeing that.  Even if it is 36 goblins, 36 kobolds, and 36 rats at the Ghast level, that is still less than half what people are saying.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576683Over the past decade or so, has it ever occurred to you to ask yourself why you find yourself in arguments with just about everyone?

No. I'm well aware of how the culture is changing and expect it only to get worse.

Quote from: StormBringer;576685I saw that part.

Zombie Level - Forum Badge
Ghast Level - Dungeon Pack - Kick off your new campaign by hurling a 36 miniature horde  of goblins, kobolds and rats...
Wraith Level - Sophie kick-starting her motorcycle
    Mummy Level - 1 each of the 30 new Bones miniatures.


By my count, that is 67.


I am guessing the Ghast level is 12 goblins, 12 Kobolds, and 12 Rats.  36 miniatures.  The Mummy level is a full set of the new line they are introducing after the Kickstarter, total 30 pcs.  And Sophie.  Everyone has been saying there are 240 miniatures for the $100 level, and I am not seeing that.  Even if it is 36 goblins, 36 kobolds, and 36 rats at the Ghast level, that is still less than half what people are saying.

See my link above.  Or count them here

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/130/603/d16a85bc18693a9888d179936b4e73fa_large.jpg?1345920839)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576683Over the past decade or so, has it ever occurred to you to ask yourself why you find yourself in arguments with just about everyone?

Oh, he knows.  That's his whole purpose for being here.

Quote from: gleichman;576687No. I'm well aware of how the culture is changing and expect it only to get worse.

So it's the culture changing, and nothing to do with behavior like...oh...you making repeated claims that I just suck Benoist's cock or have my head up his ass when the reality is that I've often disagreed with him.  I'm just using me as an example because it stands out, but I'm hardly the only one that you've reacted to in such  way.

Assumptions and behavior like as an initial response towards people doesn't have anything to do with why you find yourself arguing with just about everyone at some point?

OK.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576693So it's the culture changing, and nothing to do with behavior like...oh...you making repeated claims that I just suck Benoist's cock or have my head up his ass when the reality is that I've often disagreed with him.  

You know, I never used those phrases. And in fact I complemented you a number of times in how you took exception with declan recently in contrast to Benoist.

But I see that you didn't notice or care.

"All the minis you receive are shown on that big image below the 'Help us dig up all the Bones' progress image.  Is that not showing up?"
"Nope, I have AdBlocker running, which appears to think those images were advertisements.  Turned it off, and now I see the whole package!"

Quote from: gleichman;576695You know, I never used those phrases. And in fact I complemented you a number of times in how you took exception with declan recently in contrast to Benoist.

But I see that you didn't notice or care.

Yeah, you did make the comment about me sucking his cock.  I pointed out to no less than 3 times examples where I disagreed with him.  I would hope that you realized your mistake after 3 times.

But that's not the point.  The point is that your initial reaction was one to blow me off and say I was sucking his cock.  That's the sort of behavior I'm talking about that just might be a reason why you find everyone arguing with you.

Quote from: gleichman;576695But I see that you didn't notice or care.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;576699Yeah, you did make the comment about me sucking his cock.  

I never use language like that. Link please?

Quote from: StormBringer;576598I like my Polly-S, but they are hard to come by these days.  Anyone want to recommend a good acrylic paint?

Lots of great paints these days. Reaper makes some good ones and so does Vallejo.

Guys, any of us can be annoying, particularly when we get pissed and drop into "Forum Warrior Mode" especially some of the younger members (the ones still in some form of education I believe)go into 'I'm smarter then you, here's the "Vocabulary I Never Normally Use" mode' to prove it.

However, I'm getting sick of the sheer intellectual dishonesty expressed by a lot of the people starting these Brush Wars, and there's no need to double down on it.

A simple forum search will find Gleichman has never used the word cock on this board, and the times he's used suck, it was in the non-fellating sense.

You got into some shit with someone over one thread.  So?  Let it the fuck go.  Judge their shit on existing merits, play the ball, not the man.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;576712Lots of great paints these days. Reaper makes some good ones and so does Vallejo.

I would be careful of Reaper Master Series and Vallejo.  They are made for professionals- ie. the guys who win Golden Demon Tournaments or the chick who sells painting DvDs on CMON.

As a result, they are meant to be used in layer, after layer, after layer, after layer, 45 coats to do a cloak, that kind of thing.  Vallejo and Reaper are probably the best paints though overall, and the prices aren't bad.

You want to slap some brown on a dwarf's cloak and says "Job's a Gud-Un."  You'd be better off sticking to the Reaper Hi-Density Pigment line for the bright colors, or Games Workshop or go underground artist and make your own by raiding Michaels for paints to mix for a fiftieth the price (but a lot more work).

Games Workshop is not as thin, which means it covers better, but you also waste more paint.  Also the most expensive.  But it doesn't use dropper bottles, which means no palette to worry about.

Tamiya makes alcohol based acrylics, which go on glossy so good for planes, tanks, things like that which you can selectively grimy up.  Tamiya is also better bang for the buck then Vallejo, Reaper or GW.

Whatever you decide, get some Reaper Flow Controller, and Drying Retardant, or make your own with some diluted Future Floor Polish, it makes a huge difference, especially with mixed colors you have on a palette.

Quote from: CRKrueger;576715You got into some shit with someone over one thread.  So?  Let it the fuck go.  Judge their shit on existing merits, play the ball, not the man.

That's kinda hard to do in Gleichman's case, he's more argument than man at this stage.

Quote from: The Traveller;576740That's kinda hard to do in Gleichman's case, he's more argument than man at this stage.

When it's reached the point where people make up stuff I've said (using language I'd never use), I'd have to say that I'm not the argument nor the man- the conflict has taken a life of it's own in the minds of others.

I truly represent 'The Other' to them. Let the demonizing begin.

Quote from: gleichman;576742Let the demonizing begin.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576563Now it's obvious.  What was I holding out for?

THIS!

Should have known they would achieve the final stretch goal with the ultimate geek magnet. It's like showing a bottle of booze to an alcoholic.

Also, yet another thread where people rose to Mr. Gleichman's obvious bait. Don't you ever learn?

Quote from: CRKrueger;576674I think generally yes.  An initial surge as the KS first comes on, then spikes as new stretch goals are revealed that really push it over the edge for someone.

What the Reaper and Order of the Stick kickstarters both did very well was offer additional material as stretch goals that current contributors could increase their contribution to receive.

In the case of Reaper, they had 16,475 contributors at the Vampire level. If they could convince 25% of them to drop an extra $10 every time they offered a new option, they'd convert another $40,000. For their very last stretch goal they set a +$100,000 goal for a $10 Cthulhu.

I'm fairly certain they didn't add more than a couple hundred new contributors in the last 24 hours: But they hit people's inboxes with high value upgrades and then sealed the deal in the final hours with a couple of amazing miniatures. But I'm guessing they leveraged an average of $30 or $40 out of their existing contributors.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;576762I'm fairly certain they didn't add more than a couple hundred new contributors in the last 24 hours:

That doesn't track with my recollection... or kicktraq. They added over 3600 in the last day, over 9000 in the last 3 days:

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-an-evolution-of-gaming-min/#chart-daily

I think the real effect that was going on is:
1) The deal was getting sweet enough to get all the hemmers and hawers to jump on.
2) The sweeteners of the stretch goals were getting good enough that many of the vampire subscribers were doing some pretty intense word of mouth marketing. As you are my facebook friend, you should have seen some of this first hand. :)

For myself, I pledged the $100 for Vampire after I saw Jeff's post (otherwise I wouldn't have been aware of it).  Then I got confused and thought I needed to pledge an extra $25 for shipping (even though I'm in the US).  Then when I realized I didn't need to, I started looking at the extras.  I figured I'd get a case to go with my minis.

Then, over the next day, I looked at my budget and the additional options.  I didn't figure everything, but I looked at my budget and decided that I could go to $308 and pick some good options with the extra money.  

So I roughly tripled my pledge with 40 minutes to go.

Quote from: CRKrueger;576719I would be careful of Reaper Master Series and Vallejo.  They are made for professionals- ie. the guys who win Golden Demon Tournaments or the chick who sells painting DvDs on CMON.

As a result, they are meant to be used in layer, after layer, after layer, after layer, 45 coats to do a cloak, that kind of thing.  Vallejo and Reaper are probably the best paints though overall, and the prices aren't bad.

You want to slap some brown on a dwarf's cloak and says "Job's a Gud-Un."  You'd be better off sticking to the Reaper Hi-Density Pigment line for the bright colors, or Games Workshop or go underground artist and make your own by raiding Michaels for paints to mix for a fiftieth the price (but a lot more work).

Games Workshop is not as thin, which means it covers better, but you also waste more paint.  Also the most expensive.  But it doesn't use dropper bottles, which means no palette to worry about.

Tamiya makes alcohol based acrylics, which go on glossy so good for planes, tanks, things like that which you can selectively grimy up.  Tamiya is also better bang for the buck then Vallejo, Reaper or GW.

Whatever you decide, get some Reaper Flow Controller, and Drying Retardant, or make your own with some diluted Future Floor Polish, it makes a huge difference, especially with mixed colors you have on a palette.

From personal experience, I know the Reaper and Vallejo paints are really great for layering, thats true. They can also be used with less thinner nearly straight out of the bottle and cover in a single coat.

GW paints are ok for regular painting but over time their paint pots have gotten smaller while the price keeps increasing. Also they seem to be very good at designing pots that speed up your paints drying out.

For ease of cleanup, I would suggest water based acryllics only, especially if your work area is accessible to children and pets.

You can find flow inprover in larger quantities for better prices in any craft store. Floor polish will work in a pinch but the good stuff is so easy to find its hardly worth it.

You can get a palette super cheap. Just go to your local home improvement store and just get a couple of plain white bathroom tiles. They are great and won't stain like a plastic one and are easy to clean with hot soapy water.
Best of all, they are CHEAP. :)

Quote from: CRKrueger;576719I would be careful of Reaper Master Series and Vallejo.  They are made for professionals- ie. the guys who win Golden Demon Tournaments or the chick who sells painting DvDs on CMON.

As a result, they are meant to be used in layer, after layer, after layer, after layer, 45 coats to do a cloak, that kind of thing.  Vallejo and Reaper are probably the best paints though overall, and the prices aren't bad.

You want to slap some brown on a dwarf's cloak and says "Job's a Gud-Un."  You'd be better off sticking to the Reaper Hi-Density Pigment line for the bright colors, or Games Workshop or go underground artist and make your own by raiding Michaels for paints to mix for a fiftieth the price (but a lot more work).

Games Workshop is not as thin, which means it covers better, but you also waste more paint.  Also the most expensive.  But it doesn't use dropper bottles, which means no palette to worry about.

Tamiya makes alcohol based acrylics, which go on glossy so good for planes, tanks, things like that which you can selectively grimy up.  Tamiya is also better bang for the buck then Vallejo, Reaper or GW.

Whatever you decide, get some Reaper Flow Controller, and Drying Retardant, or make your own with some diluted Future Floor Polish, it makes a huge difference, especially with mixed colors you have on a palette.

thanks for this--i've never done the painting minis thing before and could easily see myself buying the "wrong" paints.  

i'll have plenty of practice materials when my vampire level package ships, eh? :)

Quote from: Exploderwizard;576789From personal experience, I know the Reaper and Vallejo paints are really great for layering, thats true. They can also be used with less thinner nearly straight out of the bottle and cover in a single coat.

GW paints are ok for regular painting but over time their paint pots have gotten smaller while the price keeps increasing. Also they seem to be very good at designing pots that speed up your paints drying out.

For ease of cleanup, I would suggest water based acryllics only, especially if your work area is accessible to children and pets.

You can find flow inprover in larger quantities for better prices in any craft store. Floor polish will work in a pinch but the good stuff is so easy to find its hardly worth it.

You can get a palette super cheap. Just go to your local home improvement store and just get a couple of plain white bathroom tiles. They are great and won't stain like a plastic one and are easy to clean with hot soapy water.
Best of all, they are CHEAP. :)

and thank you for this advice, too.  

now i'm thinking i should get something else to practice on, so the reaper sculpts don't become tarnished with my basic paint job, lol

An excellent podcast with the guy from Reaper answering many questions about the kickstarter

http://ec.libsyn.com/p/1/9/3/193df1923ef576d1/Nerdherders_Exclusive_Reaper_Miniatures_Kickstarter_Interview.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d01cc8137d8c85c13cc&c_id=4879938

Awesome paints info, folks, thanks!

That Podcast is amazing and had tons of inside info, I recommend it.  I posted this on the reaper forums, but it might have a better home here:

I listened to the podcast twice and there were tons of neat tidbits in there. It was a long night with a crying baby, so i may have missed a few things.

Bones accounts for 1/3 of the Reaper revenue. Does that mean it is cannibalizing other products, or growing their revenue by 1/3. I think the later is more likely as they had an aggressive KS to embiggen dem bones skus. Their accountant was even willing to allow the 30k goal as is, even though 30k only covered 1/3 of the costs. So they were sitting on a big hit, but unwilling/unable to pay the upfront cost to grow the line. 3.4M of risk free cash can alleviate those sorts of issues.

A very rough breakdown of where them money went might be as follows:

~340k to Amazon/KS (~10%)
~2M to the molds (5k to 10k per at about 300 models) Is size or complexity the cost driver for the molds? An injection machine or two may be in here as well, plus plant upgrades.
~1M for production and perhaps shipping cost (Bryan said they needed 500k to pay for people who added in the last 24 hours or something to that affect, so roughly double that I think.) They may have even paid out of pocket for some of this.
= ~3.34M (the take)

But this is not the end of the story. Accountants can do all sorts of fun things with cash flow (did I mention Reaper is owned by accountants). Expenses can offset other gains, and capital expenditures can be amortized/depreciated over many years Thus the kickstarter money is not a cut and dried cost calculation, it results in long term tax reductions as well. In addition, every bone sold from the KS line in the future will result in higher profits per unit when compared to the earlier bones, as the capital expenditure portion of the price has already been paid. The molds will last a long time if there is good maintenance.

Another important matter is that that the KS money is like a 7 month risk free loan, it is a big sum of money for a company the size of Reaper, Risk free means that it will not drive them into bankruptcy if things get squirly.   Businesses also like prepaid sales, in fact they love them! The bigger the better, they can get lower prices per unit, while also adding to the size with non prepaid units at a lower rate. I wouldn't be surprised if Reaper orders 10-20% more than the KS total to cover the time period where they will be setting up the equipment.

As to how much Reaper will release on the market at one time, i think everything at once. This matches their current model as they already have over 7000 skus, a few hundred more will not make a big difference. Plus the Undertaker level will already have everything included.

I think they will allow swaps in the RPM, they hinted at other features in the video, and each order is already customized. In addition, it will allow them to gain (free) marketing data on their core customers. What kind of customers like x, y and who does not like z. There is much anecdotal evidence already, but real data is usually better.   

All in all. it seems like Reaper just about broke even, but the long term implications of the drive are significant as well as the goodwill it fostered in the community and the new audience it opened up (me being one). They chose to price the KS very aggressively giving great value as it helps them more this way in the long run. It was not a cash in move (rather obvious).

As Reaper is a private company, the owners can execute solid long term strategies without worrying about shareholders trying to thrown them out for short term losses/non nonperformance (not that they are nonperforming mind you).

TY Reaper,

Cheers

thanks, teazia, for that info!  i had trouble getting the podcast to load so i missed that analysis.

Quote from: Melan;576134If I was still using this stuff, I'd be in at $100. That's a lot of miniatures.

Me too, but I've come to love paper miniatures too much. I don't have the space for that much stuff, and paper minis fill the bill for me. Plus, using PIG's custom paper mini maker I can make my own out of any images I care to upload, so I'm covered. Reaper does good stuff though, and I still have some of their metal minis, including a big 'ole hill giant. Nice selection here though, grats ya'all.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;576669Glad to help.  Enjoy your ironic beard and skinny jeans, and watch out with that pizza.



No, I was saying that your comments make it sound like a very self-appreciating ass, that's all.  I don't care how many last minute donations there were, or when your bid was, but the fact that you had to come on and make commentary reducing the value and impact of everyone else would normally lead me to wonder about your self-worth, but since I can tell you view yourself as an Rand protagonist, I know that's not the case.  

So it was clearly done with the intent of reducing other's view of the worth of their contribution (bids is very inaccurate, I think.  We were contributing to a cause, not bidding against anyone for something), which is very much a dick move on your part.  I wouldn't expect you to understand that though, for the exact reasons above.

Ah, I see you've met gleichman. Don't waste your time.

Quote from: gleichman;576687No. I'm well aware of how the culture is changing and expect it only to get worse.

g has me on ignore, otherwise I might own his pathetic ass in yet another argument, so this is for everyone else. You're wasting your time trying to point shit out, as gleichman is one of the worst trolls this forum has seen. His every post is designed to push people's buttons with it's arrogance, condescension, and/or dismissiveness (apparently not a word, but ya get it :D ). If I were ya'all I really wouldn't bother, you'll just end up gettin frustrated, which is exactly what gleichman wants. I end up feeling sorry for someone who's apparently so sure they're right that they won't even consider someone else's point, and ignore anyone that proves him wrong. Ya'all can do what ya want, but I'd be surprised if you ever got gleichman to see your point.

Quote from: Teazia;577462Bones accounts for 1/3 of the Reaper revenue.

I'll have to re-listen because I very well could have heard it wrong, but I thought Bones was a huge part of their revenue BEFORE the KS project.  That was the reason behind the big push to get more figures out there.

I found it very interesting to hear that molds for pewter minis were pretty cheap, but molds for plastic minis were tens of thousands of dollars each to set up.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;577523I'll have to re-listen because I very well could have heard it wrong, but I thought Bones was a huge part of their revenue BEFORE the KS project.  That was the reason behind the big push to get more figures out there.

I found it very interesting to hear that molds for pewter minis were pretty cheap, but molds for plastic minis were tens of thousands of dollars each to set up.

Considering how small the Bones line is compared to metal offerings 1/3 is a HUGE deal.

The molds for metals are less expensive but the actual casting materials are much more so.

The plastic minis come with a higher startup cost but ongoing production costs are much cheaper. Combine that with dramitic increases in sales due to the lower price per mini and the molds will pay for themselves in a fairly short time.

This was a win/win for both Reaper and gamers that want more affordable minis.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;577536Considering how small the Bones line is compared to metal offerings 1/3 is a HUGE deal.

The molds for metals are less expensive but the actual casting materials are much more so.

The plastic minis come with a higher startup cost but ongoing production costs are much cheaper. Combine that with dramitic increases in sales due to the lower price per mini and the molds will pay for themselves in a fairly short time.

This was a win/win for both Reaper and gamers that want more affordable minis.

They said they will keep making metal minis until they know they have a good product that will have more demand, but I think we're going to be looking at the vast majority of minis in the future going plastic.  If you can get comparable detail and the demand is there, it's a no brainer.

I really like the heft of metal minis for characters.  I have a lot of Reaper Minis, and the metal ones don't work as well for 'big' minis.  For example, the Giant Skelton is available as a +$10 add on - I have that one in metal, and even with pins, it broke apart pretty easily.  The metal is just TOO heavy for a mini that size.  

For large scale minis, the plastic is going to be a real advantage.  The glue for plastic effectively 'melts' the two ends together, forming a pretty damn good bond.  

I have a fair number of Warhammer 40K figures, and some of them are metal, some are plastic, and some are a combination of both.  The metal/metal bonds and the plastic/metal bonds are never as strong as plastic/plastic bonds.  

In the long run, it'll probably also lead to more easily customizable figures.  I bought one set of Games Workshop skeletons (they were plastic, and the quality was decent, but not great) but I could arrange them in any way I wanted.  I could easily make a skeleton holding a skull in his hands, for instance, or mix and match weapons very easily.  In the long run, I hope that Reaper will add some more 'customized bits' to many of their future releases.  

For example, a 'warrior' mini could ship with 3 or 4 different shield styles.  Then the same mini could be customized with a round shield, a kite shield, or a rectangular shield, giving a more 'unique' feel to the version each person glues and paints up.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;577559I really like the heft of metal minis for characters.

I like metal for normal figures myself, and will be willing to pay extra for them for the foreseeable future.

But plastics are likely to take over just as they have at Game Workshop. It's a good thing that I have more than I really need already.

Quote from: gleichman;577571I like metal for normal figures myself, and will be willing to pay extra for them for the foreseeable future.

But plastics are likely to take over just as they have at Game Workshop. It's a good thing that I have more than I really need already.

There is a major difference with GW. Their finecast plastics are nearly TWICE as expensive per model as the regular metals. Reaper plastics are designed to sell at affordable prices. With that much price disparity I wouldn't be surprised if GW starts to lose major sales.

The difference is GW charges plastic prices as if every figure has to repay for the mold by itself.  :D  Reaper actually passes some of the savings along.

GW Finecast however, is something else, that's Resin, and they're still developing the perfect mixture, so the "R&D" prices are possibly justified.  Of course GW will continue to charge those prices forever.  Basically their Kickstarter is handled at the register.  :p

Kickstarter for the owners' new cars, his kids' braces, etc.

I love plastic and vastly prefer it over metal.

But then I love kitbashing and converting, which is tons easier with plastic vs. metal.

i love plastic minis --- they are much friendlier on my the digital battleboard I've been using to run games and I dont have to worry about larger figures getting knocked over and dinging the screen.

I was already buying up the Bones figures by the handful -- especially the pre-painted versions Reaper had at Origins a few months ago. Get 250+ on the cheap was a no brainer. Now to just find time to paint them all.

Quote from: JollyRB;577683i love plastic minis --- they are much friendlier on my the digital battleboard I've been using to run games and I dont have to worry about larger figures getting knocked over and dinging the screen.

I was already buying up the Bones figures by the handful -- especially the pre-painted versions Reaper had at Origins a few months ago. Get 250+ on the cheap was a no brainer. Now to just find time to paint them all.

It is a theory of mine that we buy so many minis because we think we are buying the time to paint them as well.

My shelf of shame proves that this is a mistake.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;577808It is a theory of mine that we buy so many minis because we think we are buying the time to paint them as well.

My shelf of shame proves that this is a mistake.

:hatsoff:
One must always recognize the truth when it shows itself.

those sneaky reaper-folks--they were shooting for the big bucks all along!

http://www.wired.com/design/2012/08/reaper-miniatures-bones-kickstarter-success/ (http://www.wired.com/design/2012/08/reaper-miniatures-bones-kickstarter-success/)

Quote from: beeber;578119those sneaky reaper-folks--they were shooting for the big bucks all along!

http://www.wired.com/design/2012/08/reaper-miniatures-bones-kickstarter-success/ (http://www.wired.com/design/2012/08/reaper-miniatures-bones-kickstarter-success/)

There were some unique elements that made this Kickstarter such a success -- expensive start up costs combined with low cost of production created a situation where the deal just got better and better for all backers the more backers joined, creating an explosive growth cycle.

But this was also far and away the best run Kickstarter I have yet joined in on -- the price points and awards for the various pledge levels, and the placement and nature of the stretch goals, all seemed to be exceptionally well thought out. The Reaper guys carefully seeded goals that they knew would have different gamer populations salivating -- Pathfinder stuff here, scifi stuff there, dragons throughout, and big Cthulhu at the very end.

With too many of these viral Kickstarters, at a certain point it becomes clear when you have passed over the planning horizon and you start seeing dogshit stretch goals. Never happened with this one: hats off to Reaper for dreaming big.

It was a very carefully thought-out fundraising campaign.

An lo and behold: it worked.

I've heard some folks banter about if this kickstarter is going to hurt mini sales.  Well, not for me.  I figure we won't get them until April or later next year (I expect delays), but the project got me all excited.  Yesterday I went and spent another $50 on minis to paint in the interim while I wait for my bones ;)

I have tons and tons of minis, most of them unpainted.  With a 5-year-old and a 1-year-old, I don't have the time, nor do I like to leave small parts out where someone could get at them.  Oh, and a cat.  He likes to steal minis, too.  

I haven't bought any minis in a couple years, at least.  If anything, I'm more likely to start buying again after this.

Quote from: beeber;576115wow, that is a dick move.  i'm sure bricks & mortar stores are having a tough enough time as it is.

On the one hand, they probably shouldn't have done things the way they did, if they were going with kickstarter they shouldn't have done things through the game stores first.

On the other hand, times change. Its hard to lament for a "brick and mortar store" when the reality is that the whole economic system is changing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Melan;576419Did... did this just go from two to two point seven million bucks in the last day? :eek:

And the RPG industry is dead, don't you know!

RPGPundit

Quote from: Sacrosanct;578129I've heard some folks banter about if this kickstarter is going to hurt mini sales.  Well, not for me.  I figure we won't get them until April or later next year (I expect delays), but the project got me all excited.  Yesterday I went and spent another $50 on minis to paint in the interim while I wait for my bones ;)

I didn't even know about their Bones line until this Kickstarter. The timing was off for me to join in (thanks to moving expenses and other unrelated expenses), but now I'm keeping a very close eye on their Bones stuff, because I like affordable plastic minis, even if I never paint them.

I think the Kick Starter boom says that the fans want a lot of things but have been priced out of the market in recent years.  Show them a deal on something they want and they'll put the money down.  $2 a figure is acceptable $12 isn't.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;578129I've heard some folks banter about if this kickstarter is going to hurt mini sales.  Well, not for me.  I figure we won't get them until April or later next year (I expect delays), but the project got me all excited.  Yesterday I went and spent another $50 on minis to paint in the interim while I wait for my bones ;)

Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.  I think the final count was something like 13,000 or so at the $100 level?  I am pretty sure GW doesn't rely on under 15,000 hobbyists to make their hojillions of dollars a month.

I like the idea of plastics; less expensive, safer, and if they take paint as well as metal, the deal is sealed.  I am not convinced with the 'easily modified' bit, though.  I guess snipping off a hand or something and re-gluing to another fig is easy enough, but what about the Elf with the shield sized shoulder pads?  Most of the minis seemed like you would need to be a pretty good sculptor yourself to make even the simplest of changes.

The current Dark Heaven and Warlord figs are extremely detailed - which is great on a metal mold.  When you're dealing with plastic, however, it's really easy to 'attach' bits.  A GW plastic Space Marine, for instance, has several interchangeable bits - the figure comes with no arms attached and often a choice of torsos.  You mix and match to make the figure you want.  Because it's much easier to permanently attach something to a plastic mini, down the road they may come out with more 'basic' models with more customization options.  That's what I'd like to see, eventually.  

This is a good example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1190055a

The picture shows a unit with a bunch of similar figures, but they're each slightly different.  When you look at what comes in the box you'll see that there is a base 'leg/torso' combination, and you add a head, arms, and decorations to that base.  With plastic, that's super easy.  The glue bonds permanently in 2 seconds.  With metal/metal, the glue can take a long time to tighten, and the seam is never very strong.  Plastic glues actually 'melt' the plastic and join them together - it's the kind of bond you can only get if you were welding your metal minis - and that isn't really possible.

Quote from: StormBringer;578241Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.  I think the final count was something like 13,000 or so at the $100 level?  I am pretty sure GW doesn't rely on under 15,000 hobbyists to make their hojillions of dollars a month.

I like the idea of plastics; less expensive, safer, and if they take paint as well as metal, the deal is sealed.  I am not convinced with the 'easily modified' bit, though.  I guess snipping off a hand or something and re-gluing to another fig is easy enough, but what about the Elf with the shield sized shoulder pads?  Most of the minis seemed like you would need to be a pretty good sculptor yourself to make even the simplest of changes.

Plastic is friendlier to trim, cut , and shape. I have done mods on metal minis including crafting custom weapons from leftover bits and it is a time consuming chore.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;578290Plastic is friendlier to trim, cut , and shape. I have done mods on metal minis including crafting custom weapons from leftover bits and it is a time consuming chore.

Oh, yeah, I definitely get that.  My concern is that, like the one Elf pictured in the Kickstarter poster, there is still going to be a crapload of shaping that many hobbyists just aren't up for.  At a dollar or two per fig, probably not a huge deal.  But there are more than a few of them that modification just won't be feasible; arms tucked in or crossed over the torso, poses that are difficult to add things to, and so on.

Again, this isn't a huge problem to me, it just seems like a good portion of their marketing focusses on this ease of modifications.  Maybe they have some upcoming lines that make it a lot easier, and I am just jumping the gun or something.  :)

My biggest problem with plastics are things like bent swords.  With metal, you can easily straighten them out.  With plastic, you can't straighten it without a heat gun, and then you've got to be good that you don't overheat it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;578317My biggest problem with plastics are things like bent swords.  With metal, you can easily straighten them out.  With plastic, you can't straighten it without a heat gun, and then you've got to be good that you don't overheat it.

It depends on the model and its use. If I am carrying lots of minis to game with I prefer plastic because metal can be so easily damaged in transit. If I am painting a mini to display then I still prefer metal.

If you didn't get in, this email was sent out a few minutes ago:


Project Update #62: Newbies Only!
Posted by Reaper Miniatures
OK, this link is for newbies only!!!

If you missed the Kickstarter and want to get involved, go enter in the e-mail you would like us to contact when the post KS Reaper pledge manager goes live.

If you've already pledge, this is not for you!

This is NOT a link to the Reaper Pledge Manager!

http://www.reapermini.com/ks/

(sic)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;578317My biggest problem with plastics are things like bent swords.  With metal, you can easily straighten them out.  With plastic, you can't straighten it without a heat gun, and then you've got to be good that you don't overheat it.

Definitely.  I do seem to recall a few metal minis some years ago where I had to straighten out a sword or spear or something, and the metal started creaking like it was going to snap, and it wasn't bending back properly.  I don't know what was going on, I assumed at the time they put some kind of stiffening agent in the lead to perhaps keep it from getting horribly bent in the first place.

I was pondering, however, if a change in material might also lead to a change in size and/or variety.  Right now, a decent sized dragon (for instance) is quite pricey, and it has to come in several pieces (wings, torso, tail, sometimes base) partially for packaging reasons, but mostly because it would be an unrecognizable lump from being shifted around in the case and crumpling under it's own weight.  With plastic, the same mini would have fewer pieces (maybe just wings), and primarily for packaging purposes.  

It would also be more economical to produce giants and other larger figs, including whole scenes like a tavern or a mad wizard's laboratory.  It could also lead to a larger standard figure size, say 30mm or 35mm instead.  Larger figures allow for more detail (and better scaling); thus novice painters would have a better 'canvas' to paint, and veterans would have more detail to work with.  Win-win, and the figs would still fit comfortably on a 1" battlemat.  Imagine this model (http://www.witchhunter.net/galerie_barbaren_16.html) another 10mm larger, and how much more detail it could have.  Additionally, like most figures, they could hold staves and such that are the correct size, instead of something that is clearly larger than their own forearms.  I am totally a fan of Ms Garrity's work, but there are certain physical limitations that can't be ignored; a correctly scaled staff would constantly bend under its own weight, or if you just looked at it funny.

As Exploderwizard mentions, metal is still the best for display, so a line of 'premium' metal miniatures for display or competitive purposes is likely in order.  On the other hand, a line of plastics that were more easily modifiable would make good business sense as well, especially if they are the larger size.  Nothing like the Vitruvian Man, of course, but perhaps a hand that is only slightly curled so as to place a weapon or something in, then give it a quick blast of heat to fit it into place, and a bit of glue for the final touches.  To make the joints even slightly movable would probably require a figure that would be too large to be economically feasible, even if it has really simple Stikfa like joints.  And they would still need a pretty significant amount of filler to cover the joints.  Zap-a-gap would still work, but a small stick of the plastic resin would probably work best.  But then we are back to the problem of overheating the rest of the model.  Knees might be ok with a tall boot or shin guard/kneepad combo piece, but elbows and shoulders would be a nightmare.

Speaking of Stikfas, a small pose-able frame might be cool, with some parts that snap over it like breastplates, various arm types and different heads.  But that would definitely require some kind of gap filler, as the snap on pieces would have to end a millimetre or two before any joints, and they would only work for similarly sized frames.  So, a line of forearms for dwarves/hobbits, another for human-sized, another for larger than human, and another for giants.  These can all be made from the same original, so it probably wouldn't bankrupt the company that made them, and they could be packaged together for financial reasons.

Just throwing out some blue-sky thoughts.  :)

I'm having an interesting chat about this with Ryan Dancey over in my blog (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/767624904/item/).

RPGPundit

I didn't order the Reaper bundle. As it is, I'm sitting on 500 or so unpainted minis already, which I got for about a c-note. Maybe a good 2012 resolution would be


...Get these minis all painted by Christmas!

I was over at the FLGS today, checking out some of the Bones figs, and I have to say I was somewhat less than impressed with the quality.  I thought they would have had sharper details, but they were just about in line with the rest of the metal figs on the rack.  Not disappointing, per se, but I thought the lines would be sharper or something.  Still, good quality overall, I would pick some up when they get some more lines in; all they had was the orc spearmen and orc archers.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;578272Plastic glues actually 'melt' the plastic and join them together - it's the kind of bond you can only get if you were welding your metal minis - and that isn't really possible.

Depends on the type of plastic. I've been told plastic cement doesn't work on the type that Privateer Press uses, for instance. And GW plastic models require very extreme casting conditions to achieve required level of detail, which makes the molds very expensive.

Then If they are like the GW hard plastic minis you'll be needing to order a bottle of Aleene's Tacky Glue:

Reference:
http://familycrafts.about.com/od/craftstechniques101/ig/Crafter-s-Toolbox--The-Basics/Craft-Glue.htm (http://familycrafts.about.com/od/craftstechniques101/ig/Crafter-s-Toolbox--The-Basics/Craft-Glue.htm)

Available at many craft and hobby stores as well as online.

This takes at least two hours to set up and bonds the plastic with a soft flexible connection that can be easily undone if you really need to pull an arm or head off to switch out for any reason. It holds up good, my minis and foliage that I used this on have held up well for over a decade now.

Not Suitable for metal or Pewter minis, the heavy weight of the metal causes unintended drooping or the heavy metal parts to actually drop off under their own weight. But awesome for working on hard (and soft) plastics!

It sets up rubbery so there is a bit of flexibility in the glued joints.

Quote from: vytzka;579080Depends on the type of plastic. I've been told plastic cement doesn't work on the type that Privateer Press uses, for instance. And GW plastic models require very extreme casting conditions to achieve required level of detail, which makes the molds very expensive.

Airplane and similar models are made with polystyrene, which would be a poor choice for minis, although it does work well with airplane glue (naturally), which dissolves a small layer of the plastic and mixes it with the piece to be placed with it.  The fumes can cause some damage to the plastic, so cockpits and other clear pieces are more often joined with Elmer's or super glue.  Small, delicate pieces can also be ruined by applying too much glue, hence epoxies, Elmer's or super glues are used there, as well.

Aside from the matter of casting quality, I don't think polystyrene would make for a particularly good fig.  The strength of the joints would be wildly variable, depending on the piece to be fitted; the connecting surfaces determine the strength of the bond.  While the plastic itself is very lightweight, a small joint like a wrist/hand connection may get knocked off with the slightest pressure, which is more likely if the hand is holding a large object like a sword or spear.  Any excess glue would mar the unused surfaces, as well, possibly ruining some fine details, or leaving a divot or swirl in the middle of a broader surface.

For plastics all you need is Testors Model Master Liquid Cement for Plastic Models (http://www.testors.com/product/136942/8872C/_/Liquid_Cement_For_Plastic).  Dries nearly as quickly as cyanoacrylate, forms a permanent bond by "melting" the plastic together.  Doesn't stick to skin.  Like most cool chemical shit though, it contains some kind of carcinogen.  :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;579226For plastics all you need is Testors Model Master Liquid Cement for Plastic Models (http://www.testors.com/product/136942/8872C/_/Liquid_Cement_For_Plastic).  Dries nearly as quickly as cyanoacrylate, forms a permanent bond by "melting" the plastic together.  Doesn't stick to skin.  Like most cool chemical shit though, it contains some kind of carcinogen.  :D

Carcingogens for the WIN!  :)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;578317My biggest problem with plastics are things like bent swords.  With metal, you can easily straighten them out.  With plastic, you can't straighten it without a heat gun, and then you've got to be good that you don't overheat it.

It seems hot and cold water will do the trick just as well.  Put the offending item in hot water (real hot, boiling ok), let it warm up, then remove from water, hold it in place until it cools.  Cold water can accelerate this cooling.  Haven't had a chance to try it, but many say it works well.

Cheers

Quote from: StormBringer;579056I was over at the FLGS today, checking out some of the Bones figs, and I have to say I was somewhat less than impressed with the quality.  I thought they would have had sharper details, but they were just about in line with the rest of the metal figs on the rack.  Not disappointing, per se, but I thought the lines would be sharper or something.  Still, good quality overall, I would pick some up when they get some more lines in; all they had was the orc spearmen and orc archers.

What gave you the impression that they were sharper than metal?  Also, the current bones orcs seem to be among the least impressive of the current lot, the other ones (which already sold :P) seem cooler to me.

Quote from: Teazia;579303What gave you the impression that they were sharper than metal?  Also, the current bones orcs seem to be among the least impressive of the current lot, the other ones (which already sold :P) seem cooler to me.

The pictures from the Kickstarter were obviously not the final product, but judging from those it seemed like they would have a little better detail because they could control the physical properties of the plastic.

And again, they weren't bad looking figures.  I just figured they would look a little sharper than the metal figures on the rack next to them.  I will keep an eye out for the other lines, though, the orcs haven't entirely turned me off to the product.

There are a couple apples to apples comparison of different sculps in video and pictures out there.  It seems that the bones compare very favorably with their metal counterpart (and even have some advantages), with the minor downside that complex and repetitive indentions like those in chainmail are not as pronounced in plastic.

Also, I need to stay away from the big purple, some of the things on there are maddeningly idiotic.

Cheers

Quote from: RPGPundit;578993I'm having an interesting chat about this with Ryan Dancey over in my blog (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/767624904/item/).

RPGPundit

Dancey is further establishing that he has no frelling clue about the gaming hobby at all.

Well, I have to admit that his negative-nancying on a 3.4 million dollar success story is pretty funny.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;579784Well, I have to admit that his negative-nancying on a 3.4 million dollar success story is pretty funny.

RPGPundit

I think he vastly underestimates the potential market for cheap miniatures.  I rarely use minis these days but if Bones or something similar were cheap enough, I would buy a shit-ton of them for my son to play with.

Dancey has an unfortunate tendency to always come off like he thinks he knows everything about everything (and said attitude may not be intentional, but how can he not see it?), and that makes him very difficult to take seriously.

Given that Dancey recently made $300K on selling pretty much nothing with the PF Tech Demo, he's probably just feel like an under-achiever.

Quote from: Skywalker;579867Given that Dancey recently made $300K on selling pretty much nothing with the PF Tech Demo, he's probably just feel like an under-achiever.

I would say the Reaper guys should feel like underachievers.  Dancey makes money (and has always made money) selling people Nothing, just ideas, ways of categorizing things,  concepts, never anything actually tangible.  Not dice, or minis or RPG books or anything other than notions.

At his best, those notions utterly changed gaming for the better, and helped understand what was good or bad about the hobby or industry at any given time.  At its worst, you have "Fat Elvis" looking like a mockery of his former glory using the skills that once made him the intellectual giant of the industry to try to con people into giving money to a non-existent non-product.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;580081Dancey makes money (and has always made money) selling people Nothing, just ideas, ways of categorizing things,  concepts, never anything actually tangible.  Not dice, or minis or RPG books or anything other than notions.

At his best, those notions utterly changed gaming for the better, and helped understand what was good or bad about the hobby or industry at any given time.  At its worst, you have "Fat Elvis" looking like a mockery of his former glory using the skills that once made him the intellectual giant of the industry to try to con people into giving money to a non-existent non-product.

RPGPundit

and folks like you keep him in the limelight by even acknowledging his opinions.  seriously, just ignore the idiot already.

I agree that Ryan Dancey has had a big impact on the industry. I am not convinced that most of them have been for the better though.

The OGL alone was a monumental thing that more than balance out the sum total of any stupid ideas he might have had over the years.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;580478The OGL alone was a monumental thing that more than balance out the sum total of any stupid ideas he might have had over the years.

RPGPundit

Agreed emphatically!

Quote from: RPGPundit;580478The OGL alone was a monumental thing that more than balance out the sum total of any stupid ideas he might have had over the years.

RPGPundit

It's no secret that I am an advocate for Creative Commons in general, and for RPGs specifically.  With the somewhat complicated Product Identity clause in the OGL and the overall 'legalese' of the document, what are the specifics of the OGL that make it better, in your view?

Quote from: VectorSigma;579831for my son to play with

Yuh-huh.

Quote from: The Traveller;580561Yuh-huh.

Not making excuses, I'm a savvy Daddy.

He collects Transformers, too. ;)

Quote from: StormBringer;580559It's no secret that I am an advocate for Creative Commons in general, and for RPGs specifically.  With the somewhat complicated Product Identity clause in the OGL and the overall 'legalese' of the document, what are the specifics of the OGL that make it better, in your view?

The Product Identity clause makes it better.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;580587The Product Identity clause makes it better.

How is that different than "These items are copyright, 2012:"?

Quote from: RPGPundit;580478The OGL alone was a monumental thing that more than balance out the sum total of any stupid ideas he might have had over the years.

RPGPundit

I agree completely with this.

The OGL was certainly good for RPGing.

While I may expound later on advantages (and drawbacks)  of the PI clause, I think a major strength of the OGL goes beyond the utility of the license, and into what was released under it. Namely, D&D (or rather, its major constituent rules and metasetting elements.)

I love the OGL, it eventually fragmented the D&D fan base juggernaut and that just warms my heart.

Quote from: David Johansen;580899I love the OGL, it eventually fragmented the D&D fan base juggernaut and that just warms my heart.

4e did the fragmenting.

The OGL just gave all the fragments the D&D that each of them wanted.

Castles and Crusades, True 20, and OSRIC came before 4e so I believe the OGL was primarily responsible.

But yes if the OGL was the wedge 4e was the hammer that drove it into the crack.

4e isn't a bad game.  It's too far from D&D's roots for a lot of people but that doesn't make it a bad game.  Though I've often said I think it would be a better game without the D&D legacies it carries.

Quote from: RPGPundit;579784Well, I have to admit that his negative-nancying on a 3.4 million dollar success story is pretty funny.

RPGPundit

This made me giggle.  I've been talking up Reaper success for three weeks.  And I certainly didn't say anything negative about them on your blog.  They hit an unqualified home-run!

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;580756While I may expound later on advantages (and drawbacks)  of the PI clause, I think a major strength of the OGL goes beyond the utility of the license, and into what was released under it. Namely, D&D (or rather, its major constituent rules and metasetting elements.)

If the Creative Commons had been around in 1999 instead of two years later and was used for D&D, do you think all those OGL games would not have been created?

Quote from: StormBringer;580958If the Creative Commons had been around in 1999 instead of two years later and was used for D&D, do you think all those OGL games would not have been created?

That's one of those "what if" scenarios in which it's tricky to ignore the context of the time. At the time the OGL was introduced, using share-alike and copyleft type provisions outside of software was a very new idea and people were actively afraid of it; companies avoided it on the premise that their precious content would be stolen and resold for cheaper; the PI provision may have provided comfort for some companies that would have balked at the idea of opening a whole book as share-alike under CC.

Further, electronic products were in their infancy. The OGL is more tuned to piecemeal sharing. Some of the bigger companies could do basically like wizards did and create different documents to be shared and kept under lock and key. But some of the smaller companies wouldn't have the editorial staff and motivation to create a separate "reference document" that they would have to do under CC if they wanted to only release pieces of their work, so I think the upshot is they a much smaller set of them would have shared their material.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;581155That's one of those "what if" scenarios in which it's tricky to ignore the context of the time. At the time the OGL was introduced, using share-alike and copyleft type provisions outside of software was a very new idea and people were actively afraid of it; companies avoided it on the premise that their precious content would be stolen and resold for cheaper; the PI provision may have provided comfort for some companies that would have balked at the idea of opening a whole book as share-alike under CC.

Further, electronic products were in their infancy. The OGL is more tuned to piecemeal sharing. Some of the bigger companies could do basically like wizards did and create different documents to be shared and kept under lock and key. But some of the smaller companies wouldn't have the editorial staff and motivation to create a separate "reference document" that they would have to do under CC if they wanted to only release pieces of their work, so I think the upshot is they a much smaller set of them would have shared their material.

Much thoughtful ideas here, I will have to ponder them a bit.  I have a feeling you are correct with this, especially the first paragraph.

I do want to take one minor exception, though:
"...the smaller companies wouldn't have the editorial staff and motivation  to create a separate 'reference document' that they would have to do  under CC if they wanted to only release pieces of their work..."
The CC covers the entire work, and does not necessarily require the original authour to present it in a form that is easy to re-mix or re-use.  I can put out a print only copy of some book or another under a CC license without an accompanying pdf or etext.  It's kind of a dickish move within the culture, but nothing really prevents it.  Secondly, I think the 'reference document' was wholly an OGL invention in the RPG sphere.  It's a great idea, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't really 'required' as part of the OGL, nor would it be for the CC.

Back in 2000, desktop publishing was still in its infancy, so piecing out sections certainly would have been less than simple.  These days, I don't think it would be as much of a problem, although it would require some degree of additional effort depending on what the authours wanted to have as 'publicly' accessible.

Quote from: StormBringer;580559It's no secret that I am an advocate for Creative Commons in general, and for RPGs specifically.  With the somewhat complicated Product Identity clause in the OGL and the overall 'legalese' of the document, what are the specifics of the OGL that make it better, in your view?

It reflects the dual nature of RPGs, crunch and fluff. Or more seriously rule mechanics and background setting.

A lot of companies wouldn't have an issue using share alike rule mechanics. They would have issues shareing their background materials. The OGL reflects that ditchnomy in roleplaying games which makes it useful to the hobby and industry.

Quote from: StormBringer;580559It's no secret that I am an advocate for Creative Commons in general, and for RPGs specifically.  With the somewhat complicated Product Identity clause in the OGL and the overall 'legalese' of the document, what are the specifics of the OGL that make it better, in your view?

The Creative Commons licenses have 3 problems:

1: There are too many of them and they're poorly differentiated.  It had to be assumed that people would take the most liberal possible assumption about the rights conveyed (just look at what happened in practice despite having one very clear license - the number of folks who "forgot" things or "didnt understand" certain things was legion for the first couple of years).  Without question those who expected to ask forgiveness not permission would have "misunderstood" and used the CC license option with no restrictions.

2:  None of the CC licenses enable works to have mixed rights.  The whole work is either in or out of a CC licesence.  This would have made it virtually impossible to use a CC license to make a product mixed with Open Game Content with an IP licesened from a 3rd party.

3:  The CC licenses that we would have used -  CC BY-CA is insanely complex.  

CC BY-CA (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode)

There was rampant suspiscion that the OGL was a plan to sneakily "steal" everyone's material and end up with WOTC owning it all.  That was one of the milder conspiracy theories.  The more complex the license the more fodder for the conspiracy.

A big point of the simplicity of the OGL was to make it as transparent as possible so that the conspiracy would have trouble gaining ground.  Other than a few people/companies who tried to AstroTurf the conspiracies once the license was finalized, most of the conspiracy promoters gave up quickly, which I attribute in part to its small size and relatively simple wording.

I just don't feel that any CC license would have been as successful as the OGL.  They're simply not the right tools for the job.

Quote from: RSDancey;581317The Creative Commons licenses have 3 problems:

1: There are too many of them and they're poorly differentiated.  It had to be assumed that people would take the most liberal possible assumption about the rights conveyed (just look at what happened in practice despite having one very clear license - the number of folks who "forgot" things or "didnt understand" certain things was legion for the first couple of years).  Without question those who expected to ask forgiveness not permission would have "misunderstood" and used the CC license option with no restrictions.

Nonsense.  There are six of them, and you only need to worry about the one that applies to your work.  And doesn't the number of people who "didn't understand" seem to indicate it wasn't as clear as assumed?  A certain percent were undoubtedly abusing the terms, but I am sure that number isn't 100%

Quote2:  None of the CC licenses enable works to have mixed rights.  The whole work is either in or out of a CC licesence.  This would have made it virtually impossible to use a CC license to make a product mixed with Open Game Content with an IP licesened from a 3rd party.

Preposterous.
BY-NC-ND (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/)
Is virtually the same thing as copyright by itself, except it allows unlimited or 'viral' distribution of the work.

But CC licenses don't enable mixed rights because they are built on "mixed" rights":
"CC licenses are copyright licenses (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Is_Creative_Commons_against_copyright.3F), and depend on the existence of  copyright to work. CC licenses are legal tools that creators and other  rightsholders can use to offer certain usage rights to the public, while  reserving other rights."

"Creative Commons licenses apply to works that are protected by copyright. (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Before_Licensing#Make_sure_your_work_is_copyrightable)"
(In other words, the work has to be copyright, or copyrightable, before you can apply a CC license.)

Further, nothing prevents making certain sections distributable under the CC and leaving the rest copyright.  Labyrinth Lord has a no-art pdf version that would be well served by a CC license, possibly BY-NC-ND (free marketing) or BY-NC-SA (free supplements).  They are fully within their rights to then reserve the art in the commercial version as copyright exclusively.  The text could be protected with the BY-NC-ND to avoid confusion with the copyrighted text, or if Goblinoid simply didn't want alterations to their game.

Mixing within the same product is not an issue:

"Creative Commons recommends that licensors who wish to mark works with  trademarks (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_place_a_trademark_on_a_work_and_offer_the_work_under_a_CC_license_without_also_licensing_or_otherwise_affecting_rights_in_the_trademark.3F_If_so.2C_how.3F) or other branding materials give notice to licensors  expressly disclaiming application of the license to those elements of  the work."

But that is just one's own work.  If you want to include 3rd party material:

"All Creative Commons licenses allow the original work to be included in  collections such as anthologies, encyclopedias and broadcasts. (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#If_I_create_a_collective_work_that_includes_a_work_offered_under_a_CC_license.2C_which_license.28s.29_may_I_choose_for_the_collection.3F)"
If the particular work included the SA provision, including a re-mix or alteration of the work in another 'collection of rules' would be permissible.

Quote3:  The CC licenses that we would have used -  CC BY-CA is insanely complex.  

I assume you mean BY-SA (http://by-sa).  This is how 'insanely complex' the 3.0 version is:

QuoteYou are free:

to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work
to Remix — to adapt the work
to make commercial use of the work

Under the following conditions:

    Attribution — You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).

    Share Alike — If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.

Even the legal portion is not signficantly longer than the OGL.  There are 15 sections in the OGL, whereas the CC BY-SA has 8.

QuoteThere was rampant suspiscion that the OGL was a plan to sneakily "steal" everyone's material and end up with WOTC owning it all.  That was one of the milder conspiracy theories.  The more complex the license the more fodder for the conspiracy.

And the CC licenses, built on existing copyright law, are remarkably simple to understand and execute.  No one thinks a CC implementing artist is going to try to steal all the derivative works, and to my knowledge, no one ever has.

QuoteA big point of the simplicity of the OGL was to make it as transparent as possible so that the conspiracy would have trouble gaining ground.  Other than a few people/companies who tried to AstroTurf the conspiracies once the license was finalized, most of the conspiracy promoters gave up quickly, which I attribute in part to its small size and relatively simple wording.

But are conspiracy theorists really a major impetus behind the OGL or its use?

QuoteI just don't feel that any CC license would have been as successful as the OGL.  They're simply not the right tools for the job.

It appears your understanding of CC licenses is a bit outdated.  Place all the Product Identity in a copyright notice, place BY-SA notices on the rest of the work, and how is that different than what the OGL offers?

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;580919The OGL just gave all the fragments the D&D that each of them wanted.

The OSR and alt.D&D options were in full swing before D&D4e came on the scene, though I agree that 4e's lacklustre commerical success has helped fragment the D&D franchise.

Quote from: Skywalker;581379The OSR and alt.D&D options were in full swing before D&D4e came on the scene, though I agree that 4e's lacklustre commerical success has helped fragment the D&D franchise.

The "lackluster success" (also known as "failure") of 4e is a consequence though, or a symptom, if you will, not a cause. The cause of the failure of 4e is that 4e was designed as a completely different game than what preceeded it, and drove a wedge at the heart of the fandom the game enjoyed previously, sending disgrunted fans look elsewhere for their D&D fix, which they found in various spin-off offerings (retroclones 1st gen, retro-games 2nd gen, Pathfinder RPG, etc.).

Quote from: Benoist;581381The "lackluster success" (also known as "failure") of 4e is a consequence though, or a symptom, if you will, not a cause. The cause of the failure of 4e is that 4e was designed as a completely different game than what preceeded it, and drove a wedge at the heart of the fandom the game enjoyed previously, sending disgrunted fans look elsewhere for their D&D fix, which they found in various spin-off offerings (retroclones 1st gen, retro-games 2nd gen, Pathfinder RPG, etc.).

Yep. I agree thats its a consequence and not a cause (even if I could quibble about the wording of the other stuff :)).

Quote from: Benoist;581381The "lackluster success" (also known as "failure") of 4e is a consequence though, or a symptom, if you will, not a cause. The cause of the failure of 4e is that 4e was designed as a completely different game than what preceeded it, and drove a wedge at the heart of the fandom the game enjoyed previously, sending disgrunted fans look elsewhere for their D&D fix, which they found in various spin-off offerings (retroclones 1st gen, retro-games 2nd gen, Pathfinder RPG, etc.).

Every new edition of d&d has done that.

The clever aspect of 5e is the claim that it'll be an edition that'll please fans of all editions of d&d.

I'll quite happily predict that sales will eclipse 4e based on that claim alone - whether or not it delivers.

Quote from: One Horse Town;581389Every new edition of d&d has done that.

.

Nah.  Basic, B/X, BECMI were all largely compatible.  Same with AD&D1 and 2e.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;581392Nah.  Basic, B/X, BECMI were all largely compatible.  Same with AD&D1 and 2e.

Nah. People still prefer one over another.

Quote from: One Horse Town;581393Nah. People still prefer one over another.

I prefer 1e with 2e elements (THAC0, priest spheres, thief progression).  And so do most people I game with.  Where does that put us?  It certainly isn't nearly as big of a divide as TSR D&D and 3e, or 3e and 4e.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;581394Where does that put us?  

On the naughty step.

Quote from: estar;581194It reflects the dual nature of RPGs, crunch and fluff. Or more seriously rule mechanics and background setting.

A lot of companies wouldn't have an issue using share alike rule mechanics. They would have issues shareing their background materials. The OGL reflects that ditchnomy in roleplaying games which makes it useful to the hobby and industry.

I meant to respond to this earlier.  :)

I see what you are getting at, but this is why I think it is a better idea to keep the mechanics and the background largely separated.  Rules don't have to read like a technical manual or a mathematics textbook, by any means.  But it's probably easier overall to have a fireball spell in the core books instead of MacGuffin's Infernal Conflagration.  The latter spell can be listed in the campaign books, where most of the material would probably be copyright anyway.  Short bits of additional rules materials could then be noted as OGL or CC, rather than trying to exclude the greater volume of copyright material.  "Undiscovered Country, copyright 2012; All rule boxes and Occupational Enhancement Packages are CC BY-NC-SA" or whatever.  That way, if there was a particular rule you didn't want to release, leave it out of the normal frame that would denote the other rules as Creative Commons.

Just going back to the Reaper kickstarter a moment.

I think Ryan's dead wrong on the prepaints.  Reaper released the original run of Bones as prepaints and it was a bit of a flop.  For the most part unpainted looks a hell of a lot better than crappy prepaints.  With Bones you don't even need to seal them up from constant lead exposure.

I think what we saw there is that there's demand for miniatures but the price has escalated beyond what the market will bear in recent years.  On top of that it's hard for a distributor to do a good job of stocking a range of miniatures.  Way too many individual pieces.  So there's pent up demand and a distribution and supply problem.  The Reaper Kickstarter addressed all of these and did it with some damn fine minis.

I'm carrying the Bones line in my store and have from the start.  My distributor thought I was nuts to bring in two racks of them.  But I'll never use them myself.  I'm a metal adict.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;581392Nah.  Basic, B/X, BECMI were all largely compatible.  Same with AD&D1 and 2e.

FWIW my experiences at the time were that people chose one or the other, not both.

Quote from: Skywalker;581404FWIW my experiences at the time were that people chose one or the other, not both.

In my experience, even if you were playing 2e, everyone was still playing 1e modules.  Heck, do you know how many times we ran KotBL in our AD&D campaigns?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;581406In my experience, even if you were playing 2e, everyone was still playing 1e modules.  Heck, do you know how many times we ran KotBL in our AD&D campaigns?

My experience was that a lot of people would start with "kiddie D&D" (BECMI) and would then graduate really fast to AD&D. You'd think that lots of people would have used 1st ed modules with 2e, but that wasn't happening around me: the vast majority of people would play 2e settings like Dark Sun or Ravenloft or Planescape, and it honestly wouldn't come to their mind to use G1-3 and "dumb down" their game back to "vanilla 1e".

Quote from: Benoist;581408My experience was that a lot of people would start with "kiddie D&D" (BECMI) and would then graduate really fast to AD&D. You'd think that lots of people would have used 1st ed modules with 2e, but that wasn't happening around me: the vast majority of people would play 2e settings like Dark Sun or Ravenloft or Planescape, and it honestly wouldn't come to their mind to use G1-3 and "dumb down" their game back to "vanilla 1e".

This is similar to my experiences. Now I think about it, I got much less use out of my AD&D1e material during those AD&D2e days than I did during my time with either D&D3e or D&D4e, as people were quick to move into burgeoning setting/Dungeon magazine treadmill at the time. :D

Quote from: RSDancey;5813172:  None of the CC licenses enable works to have mixed rights.  The whole work is either in or out of a CC licesence.  This would have made it virtually impossible to use a CC license to make a product mixed with Open Game Content with an IP licesened from a 3rd party.

This is what I meant when I said "the Product Identity clause made it better". Basically the OGL gives the publisher a lot more control and confidence:

(1) It starts with the assumption that everything in the work is NOT open. (So you can't accidentally open up something by forgetting to declare that you want it to be closed.)

(2) Then you specifically open content, so that people are 100% clear on what is and is not open content that they can use for themselves.

(3) And then it gives the publisher an extra safety blanket because PI lets them say "regardless of what we just said in #2, we are definitely not making this stuff open".

The CC is basically the exact opposite of this: It assumes everything is open and forces the publisher to close it.

Quote from: StormBringer;581374Preposterous. BY-NC-ND (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/)
Is virtually the same thing as copyright by itself, except it allows unlimited or 'viral' distribution of the work.

You just claimed that we would have seen the same number of products released if, instead of the OGL, WotC had released 3E under a non-commercial license. Sheer nonsense.

Quote from: One Horse Town;581389Every new edition of d&d has done that.

Not really. Some editions of D&D have been radically more effective at converting the existing player base than others. For example, both AD&D1 and 3E were very successful at this. AD&D2 and D&D4 weren't.

Excerpt from here (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2734/roleplaying-games/pathfinder-vs-4th-edition-grrr):

When consumers are faced with an upgrade, there's always going to be some portion of the customer base that says, "Nah. I'm good with what I've got." (This applies beyond RPGs: Look at the varying success of Windows Vista and Windows 7 at winning over existing Windows customers.) In the case of D&D, the two most effective transitions in the history of the game were the transition from OD&D to AD&D and the transition from AD&D2 to D&D3.

In my opinion, both of those transitions were effective because (a) they addressed perceived shortcomings in the existing rules; (b) they worked to form a bridge of continuity between the old edition and the new edition; and (c) they were effective at reaching out to new customers.

Now, the actual methods by which these goals were accomplished were radically different. AD&D (a) aimed to codify a more "official" version of the game while also expanding the detail of the rules in an era when "more realism" and "more detail" were highly prized. It was launched with a Monster Manual that was (b) designed to be used with the existing OD&D rules (by the time the first PHB came out, a sizable chunk of the customer base was already using AD&D products in their OD&D games). And it was released hand-in-hand with a Basic Set that (b) remained highly compatible with the 1974 ruleset and (c) offered a mainstream, accessible product for attracting new customers.

D&D3, on the other hand, (a) radically revised a game that was perceived as clunky and out-of-date, which allowed them to (c) reach out to a large body of disillusioned ex-customers. They simultaneously (b) released conversion guides and used a massive, public beta testing period to get large numbers of existing players onboard with the changes before the game was even released.

The conversion to D&D4 failed for several reasons.

First, no effort was made form a bridge between the old edition and the new edition. (A crazy French guy screaming "Ze game remains the same!" like some sort of cultic mantra notwithstanding.) In fact, WotC went out of their way to insist that there was no bridge between the editions.

Second, WotC was attempting to reach out to new customers. But I maintain that they made the fundamental mistake of trying to pull customers away from video games by competing with video games on their own turf. That's just not going to cut it. If RPGs are going to be successful in the future, it will be because they emphasize their unique strengths. Tactical combat and prepackaged My Perfect Encounters(TM) aren't going to cut it.

Finally, 2008 was misidentified as being another 2000.

In 2000 WotC was dealing with an overwhelmingly dissatisfied fanbase and responded with a new edition that largely addressed that dissatisfaction without overstepping the boundaries of its "mandate". It wasn't perfect. Plenty of people remained dissatisfied (or hadn't been dissatisfied in the first place). But there were also a lot of people saying "3rd Edition looks just like my house rules for AD&D" or "it's exactly what I've always wanted D&D to look like", and success followed.

In 2008, I think it's clear that WotC thought they had a similar level of overwhelming dissatisfaction. But either they didn't or their sweeping and fundamental changes to the game exceeded the "mandate" of that dissatisfaction. Or both. (Personally, I suspect they were misled by the echo chamber of the 'net and a corporate decision to prevent OGL support for 4th Edition. They tried to solve "problems" that most players weren't actually experiencing and simultaneously "fixed" them in an unnecessarily excessive fashion.)

In some ways this takes us back to the "New Coke" metaphor: The taste tests for New Coke indicated it would be a huge success. But the taste tests were fundamentally flawed: They were "sip tests". And in sip tests the smoother, sweeter taste of New Coke won. But nobody buys their soda by the teaspoon; they buy it by the can.

4th Edition radically overhauled D&D's gameplay in order to respond to complaints driven by CharOp specialists, armchair theorists, and other lovers of spherical cows. For a lot of people on the ground, the game didn't have those problems and 4th Edition was a solution in search of a problem.

THE OGL AND SRD

WotC's corporate culture had clearly turned against the OGL by 2008. They no longer saw a massive network maintaining interest in their game and generating new customers who were all funneled back into their core products. Instead, they saw an entire industry profiteering on their IP.

The argument of whether or not WotC was right or not can be saved for another time. (Although I will note that every scrap of evidence I've seen indicates that the strategy works both in the RPG industry and outside of the RPG industry. D&D3, Pathfinder, and the OSR community all seem to have flourished under it as well.)

But given the existence of the OGL, the decision to stop making Classic D&D and start making New D&D was a disastrous one. The goal appears to have been to create an edition with enough fundamental incompatibility that the OGL couldn't be used to support it, but the practical effect was to leave the largest network of material supporting an RPG in history all pointing towards a giant void.

A void into which it was absolutely trivial for someone to step.

(END EXCERPT)

Ultimately, the existence of the OGL and the massive pyramid of support material for 3E (that WotC was powerless to remove from the marketplace) probably made the decision to design a game with radically different gameplay and slap the D&D trademark on it a lot worse. But the D&D4 WotC designed was always destined to be a big, fat loser in terms of converting the existing fanbase.

If it hadn't been the OGL and Pathfinder, there would just be an even larger community of 3.5 players who exited the marketplace entirely (just like there was a large market of 1E players who exited the marketplace in 1989).

Quote from: StormBringer;580958If the Creative Commons had been around in 1999 instead of two years later and was used for D&D, do you think all those OGL games would not have been created?

Before the OGL, you had a lot of "unlicensed" D&D-based games; they were things like "Role-Aids", or what some might term "fantasy heartbreakers" and the sense was always that these were somehow inferior products.

It was the explicit encouragement of third-party products during the D20 boom that changed this idea; far from the popular notion that it created a huge wave of crap, though it did, the most important development of the D20 boom is that also created a large number of products that people for the first time ACCEPTED as being equal in quality and acceptability for use in D&D gaming as the "official" products WoTC was putting out. That was the sea-change.

Would things be the same today without the OGL? That's practically an impossible question to answer, but my guess is that what would have been missing is that widespread acceptance; and while the OSR games might still have existed, for example, they may also have ended up reaching a much smaller audience.
The OGL's biggest effect was a change in the gaming hobby's culture.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Justin Alexander;581426Just like there was a large market of 1E players who exited the marketplace in 1989.

Are there any numbers to show this?

Also, speaking of crowd sourcing, is there anyway to get in(late) on your L&L project?

Cheers

Quote from: RPGPundit;581432It was the explicit encouragement of third-party products during the D20 boom that changed this idea; far from the popular notion that it created a huge wave of crap, though it did, the most important development of the D20 boom is that also created a large number of products that people for the first time ACCEPTED as being equal in quality and acceptability for use in D&D gaming as the "official" products WoTC was putting out. That was the sea-change.

I'm not so sure about the 'first' time part.  Judges Guild offered materials with the D&D logo in the 70's and early 80's that was widely accepted as part of D&D.

Quote from: StormBringer;581374or its use?

It appears your understanding of CC licenses is a bit outdated.  Place all the Product Identity in a copyright notice, place BY-SA notices on the rest of the work, and how is that different than what the OGL offers?

Point of Order,

The Open Game License was released in 2000.

Creative Commons didn't come into play until 2002.

So to criticize Dancey and Wizards for not using a non existent license is well.. a silly thing to do. But understandable since they were released within 2 years of each other.

Quote from: StormBringerIt appears your understanding of CC licenses is a bit outdated.  Place all the Product Identity in a copyright notice, place BY-SA notices on the rest of the work, and how is that different than what the OGL offers?

OMG, a debate about copyright as it applies to rules in games.  It's so 1999!

Here's the fundamental flaw with your advocacy of CC license for TRPGs:

The mechanics can't be copyright.

What does that mean "in the real world"?

In the real world, every TRPG publisher asserts that you cannot use its mechanics without its permission.  This is not some crazy landgrab conjured out of thin air by Wizards of the Coast (in fact if you know anything about the history of Wizards of the Coast you'll know they were on the receiving end of a very nasty lawsuit about this exact issue).

Every.  Single.  Mainstream.  TRPG.  Publisher.  Asserts.  This.

Back in "the day", before the OGL, if you visited a mainstream publisher's website, they would usually have some kind of FAQ or community guideline that talked about how they reserved the exclusive rights to use their game system, that you couldn't publish material compatible with their game system without their permission, etc.  All of them.

How can this be?  

The answer is that copyright is a much, much more murky thing than most people understand.  And the more you delve into the way copyright interacts with games, especially TRPG games the murkier it gets.

My position has always been that in the event that this issue was litigated competently a court could find that TRPG rules transcend the limitation envisioned by the copyright office when they issued their famous "the rules of games cannot be copyright" statement.  TRPG rules are not like the rules for a game of chess.  They are a complex gumbo that mixed together math, fiction, derivative interfaces, characters, graphic materials, and all sorts of other kinds of work - many of which are copyrightable on their own.

And in fact that's the consensus opinion of the publishers in the TRPG marketplace.  Which is why they tell you that you can't make something compatible with their games without their permission.

OK, so we have two mutually exclusive legal positions:

A:  Game rules cannot be copyright

B:  TRPGs are something bigger than "game rules" and the thing they are can be copyright.

In 1999, there wasn't much caselaw that one could point at to make the case for the second position.  Since then, the caselaw has become much, much stronger.  Look up the cases regarding Harry Potter encyclopedias, for example - a case the judge was ready to dismiss on the first day, but was convinced to hear anyway and in the end changed his position 180 degrees in favor of the idea of enabling copyright protection for Rawling's works from being used by 3rd parties without a license.

There are also some interesting computer game cases - see EA's defense of the Sims Social vs. Zynga for example.  This case is still being litigated but the fact that its been brought at all is telling about the way the legal community is being confronted with the idea that there are "games" and there are GAMES and the two are different.

But back in 1999 we had the A/B situation and it was murky as hell.  It was so murky in fact that nobody actually tested it.  There was essentially no content produced for sale that used someone else's game without permission, so de facto, B was the rule that was applied.

One of the objectives of the OGL was to remove this problem.  And the solution to removing it was to accept B, then define a license to enable those rights to be sublicensed - even if those rights weren't actually legally enforceable.

The OGL lets you license game mechanics.  That license is viral.  That license is irrevocable.  That license is world wide and royalty free.

This is not trivial.  This is at the core of why the OGL worked.  It removed all the gray area from the law and replaced it with a definitive answer.  If you didn't like it, you didn't have to use it, but if you used it, you accepted that the industry's consensus was binding on you when you used material provided under that license.

Of course, the upside was that you got to use whatever you wanted without any meaningful fear of litigation and didn't have to seek review or approval of what you chose to do with that material.

Removing this gray area was not an objective of, nor was it accomplished by, any of the CC licenses.

Now as to the issue of Product Identity:

Quote from: StormBringerMixing within the same product is not an issue:

"Creative Commons recommends that licensors who wish to mark works with  trademarks (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_place_a_trademark_on_a_work_and_offer_the_work_under_a_CC_license_without_also_licensing_or_otherwise_affecting_rights_in_the_trademark.3F_If_so.2C_how.3F) or other branding materials give notice to licensors  expressly disclaiming application of the license to those elements of  the work."

But that is just one's own work.  If you want to include 3rd party material:

"All Creative Commons licenses allow the original work to be included in  collections such as anthologies, encyclopedias and broadcasts. (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#If_I_create_a_collective_work_that_includes_a_work_offered_under_a_CC_license.2C_which_license.28s.29_may_I_choose_for_the_collection.3F)"
If the particular work included the SA provision, including a re-mix or alteration of the work in another 'collection of rules' would be permissible.

Unfortunately, you're misunderstanding both what Creative Commons says you can do, and you're misunderstanding some of these terms which are defined.

We'll start with the easy issue which is the definition of "anthologies, encyclopedias and broadcasts".

The US Copyright Law has special rules for Anthologies and Collections.  Those rules are designed to permit the compilation of a number of works under one cover - but those works are still separate.  You know, like a book of short stories.  Those rules do not permit a work to mix all that content together.  They are each treated as indivisible units which happen to share a wrapper.

The same is true for the right to perform a work ("broadcast").  A TV Network doesn't gain a copyright interest in the shows it broadcasts.  Each show is independently copyright and is treated as an atomic unit.

Encyclopedias are a different animal.  The copyright law has exceptions from the rules about making derivative works to permit "fair use" - a common law concept (which means its not written down, it's just assumed to be known and applied).  One of those fair use provisions is to allow quotations of limited amounts of copyright material for the purpose of commentary or critique.  Without this exemption, an encyclopedia that contained any references to any copyright content would be impermissible.

But the amount of content you can use when making commentary and critique is very narrow.  You can't for example, write "I think the following story is awesome", and then include the text of Stranger in a Strange Land.  You are supposed to limit yourself to the bare minimum of content required to make your point.

And regardless of all of this, none of these exceptions permit you to make a derivative work based on the underlying copyrights.

The creation of derivative works is the elephant in the room from my previous section about the A/B interpretation of copyright as it applies to TRPGs.

You won't find a workable definition of "derivative work" in the copyright law.  The definition is basically "you'll know it when you see it", and that's how it's litigated.  There's a great case out there, Anderson v. Stallone about a writer who created a script for a Rocky sequel, and the judgement was that even though his script contained nothing but the names and "characters" (whatever that means in regards to a movie script) from Rocky, it was a derivative work and Stallone, not Anderson, owned the copyright to it.

Nothing in the copyright law, and nothing in the CC licenses, permits the kind of remixing that the OGL enables, where you can take someone else's materials and use it as construction materials to create a derivative work.

You literally cannot do this with disclaimers and notices - not in any practical real world sense.  Most OGL'd works are massively derivative of the content they're licensed from almost at a genetic level.  They're neither collections, encyclopedias, or critiques.

So let's talk about your quote regarding trademarks.

Is "Darth Vader" a trademark?  How about "The Force"?  How about the description of a light saber?  How about the concept of a "Jedi Knight"?  How about the concept of "The Empire" and "The Rebellion"?

Trademarks aren't universal.  They apply to categories of products.  What categories are these things trademarks in and what categories are they not?

Trademarks and copyrights aren't interchangeable.  They do two entirely different things.

Copyrights:  Create a monopoly on use, performance and derivation of a work as an incentive for people to make more works.

Trademarks:  Create an indication for a consumer that a product or service comes from a known and trusted source.

The idea that Trademark is something that could be handled by comments and disclaimers within a TRPG is utterly impractical.  The OGL's solution to this is to let you say "this thing X, you can't use it".  Doesn't matter what X is or what the legal claim is, or anything else - if you accept the terms of the OGL, you agree to be bound by the restriction not to use X in that work.

If I say "A world with elves, hobbits, dwarves and orcs is my Trademark", nothing in the CC license prohibits you from ignoring that claim - out of negligence, or just because you don't think my Trademark claim is valid.

That's a powerful and necessary component of the OGL.  TRPG publishers are justifiably proud of and jealously guard the creative bits of their worlds and settings.  They hope to someday extract income from licensing them.  A license that did not absolutely ensure that they were not "giving away" those rights would have been a non-starter.  Hand waving of the sort you advocate wasn't going to be good enough.

I understand you're passionate about the CC license regime and I salute you for it.  There's a lot to like in the CC ecosystem.  But it isn't a good fit for what the TRPG industry needs to do its business, and saying that isn't saying anything bad about CC.

RyanD

Ryan,

You may have addressed it elsewhere, but what are your perceptions of the move away from Open Gaming Content produced by WotC?  Obviously the move to 4th edition was a move away from Open Gaming Content, but I noticed a growing frustration in the industry that support for alternate base classes, for instance, was outside of the OGL.  For example, if I wanted to use DM Genie for my games, the more we moved beyond 'core only' the more trouble we had.  With everything under the OGL, everything could just 'work' together.  

It felt like a dramatically increasing level of incompatability.  

Do you think moving away from Open Content ended up hurting WotC as 3.5 moved toward the end of its supported cycle?  

And don't pay too much attention to Stormbringer.  He likes to assert things as if he were an expert, and refuses to accept proof that his position is wrong.  He's like Colbert - he listens to his gut regardless of what 'facts' might say.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;581531And don't pay too much attention to Stormbringer.  He likes to assert things as if he were an expert, and refuses to accept proof that his position is wrong.  He's like Colbert - he listens to his gut regardless of what 'facts' might say.

:teehee:

Mr Dancey and I have spoken before.  I think he can decide whether or not to engage in a discussion, and when to terminate said discussion without your help.

(Protip:  Colbert is parody)

Quote from: deadDMwalking;581531You may have addressed it elsewhere, but what are your perceptions of the move away from Open Gaming Content produced by WotC?

It was a horrible mistake for which they paid the price of a failed edition of Dungeons & Dragons, the rise of the first true competitor to take it on head-to-head and win in Pathfinder, and the loss of a tremendous reservoir of positive community equity that they greatly need now if they're ever to climb out of the hole they've fallen into.

A hole dug for them by the OGL.

Quote from: Skywalker;581565A hole dug for them by the OGL.

Hardly. More like a hole dug by promoting their latest offering like the one true Kool-Aid and shitting all over loyal fans of past products.

Its perfectly fine to get behind a new product. Telling your long time fans that all your old stuff is shit is NOT a winning way to do so.

Quote from: Skywalker;581565A hole dug for them by the OGL.

If this were true, why hasn't Paizo^2 emerged and produced Pathfinder^2 to do to Pathfinder what Pathfinder did to Dungeons & Dragons?

Why was D&D 3.5 able to convert many (most?) of the 3e players?  It faced competition from many, many other games with very similar rules?

I think that MMOs did far more to hurt D&D than the OGL did (well, to be honest I don't think the OGL hurt D&D at all, in fact I think it was critical to its renaissance).

But Wizards of the Coast dug their own hole, starting with the day they said "we are not working on 4th edition" when they were, followed by the day they said "we will not announce 4th edition this year" when they knew they would, and capped off when they said "there will be an Open Game license for use with 4th edition" when they were clearly unwilling to create one.

Everything after that was just post script.

Quote from: RSDancey;581568If this were true, why hasn't Paizo^2 emerged and produced Pathfinder^2 to do to Pathfinder what Pathfinder did to Dungeons & Dragons?

Paizo has moved on from Pathfinder yet. If they dropped Pathfinder for a significantly altered edition, then I am certain this would be a risk for them (and one they would know all to well).

I also suspect that there is no room at this point for a 3rd WotC or Paizo until one of them has left the room. Arguably there isn't even room for 2 :)

Quote from: RSDancey;581568Why was D&D 3.5 able to convert many (most?) of the 3e players?  It faced competition from many, many other games with very similar rules?

The movement from 3e to 3.5e was not without issues, but it was a lot less of a jump than 3.5e to 4e. I don't think they are comparable.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;581567Hardly. More like a hole dug by promoting their latest offering like the one true Kool-Aid and shitting all over loyal fans of past products.

That approach sucks and did not do WotC any favours for sure (though I don't think the approach isolated to the shift from 3.5e->4e). Though such douchebaggery had a negative impact on 4e, I think it had much less to do with the hole that WotC now finds itself in than the OGL does.

The real problem Hasbro has with D&D is that the BRAND is damaged.  At a moment when fantasy has never been more in positive light (Game of Thrones, Jackson LoTR, WoW, Nerds taking over, etc) the D&D product line is languishing in mire literally, no literally- splintered fanabse, a very empty new product line, competitors who are defending their brands more successfully than they are.  a 38 year old brand should also have some cool ancillary products- where are they?

There is an interesting interview between the Tome Show host and a Wotc rep from GenCon that is pure corporate speak, product product product, we want to get back to story and players, product product product.  I think the podcast is here:  

http://thetome.podbean.com/2012/09/01/end-of-con-interview-gencon-2012/

After getting a newly refurbished D&D brand as a throw in on the Wotc deal, Hasbro has let it slide into disrepair.  The fact that we have at least another year of playtesting before 5e is launched shows that Mearls et al are showing some foresight about the legacy of the brand, rather than just the short term bottom line.  Maybe they can salvage the mess they created.  I just don't know, the creatives seem to have have the power at the moment- no significant revenue for a year and half(!!!) while they try to publicly create the perfect D&D for 40 years of players and the future, but will they be able to have such control after launch?

I think it is pretty interesting.

Cheers

Quote from: Teazia;581597the creatives seem to have have the power at the moment- no significant revenue for a year and half(!!!)

That's what the reprints and pdfs are for, to
1.) Show Hasbro that the interest in D&D is a larger fanbase then 4e.
2.) To bring the non-4e audience back to WotC, a lengthy playtest is needed.
It's all about breathing room.

Quote from: CRKrueger;581612That's what the reprints and pdfs are for, to
1.) Show Hasbro that the interest in D&D is a larger fanbase then 4e.
2.) To bring the non-4e audience back to WotC, a lengthy playtest is needed.
It's all about breathing room.

Agree. It's a significant mental shift for WotC but there is now good commercial sense in putting its back catalogue into print rather than try and force everyone to play a single edition, especially when they have lost any ability to stop their customers choosing those other editions or myriad of other options that are available thanks to the OGL. If you are giving your IP away for free to everyone else, you should at least try and make money on it yourself :)

Quote from: Skywalker;581627Agree. It's a significant mental shift for WotC but there is now good commercial sense in putting its back catalogue into print rather than try and force everyone to play a single edition, especially when they have lost any ability to stop their customers choosing those other editions or myriad of other options that are available thanks to the OGL. If you are giving your IP away for free to everyone else, you should at least try and make money on it yourself :)

The beauty of it is, with the OGL, the community is self sustaining even with negligent stewardship from Wotc.  The owner of TSR/3x D&D can always cash in on this community because if they had their druthers, the community would probably prefer to be using the original material legally (not in all cases and this resistance may be strongest in the PF crowd).  The longer the owner waits to capitalize on this though, it is possible the more their potential mindshare and marketability slips.  

How much money would it take to buy Dungeons & Dragons?  This might be the perfect time.  With no revenue to speak of for at least 12 months, a backcatalog of questionable worth (based on prior pdf sales data), a splintered fan base, and the prospect of significantly more investment investment before a meaningful return is realized.  It may not be as much as we think.  If one gives Wotc a 5 year window of both limited rights to the brand and electronic gaming rights, this may even be more possible.  

Also, someone needs to get the movie rights back from the current slackjawwed owners, buying them off/profit sharing is a worthy cause.

Yeah, I agree that the OGL has been good for the hobby. It was just bad for WotC. Its adoption in 2000 was badly fumbled (and this was when the hole was dug) and this led to the desperate attempt in 2008 to try and recover from that mistake (and this was when WotC fell into that hole). :)

Quote from: Teazia;581642...the community would probably prefer to be using the original material legally...

True. Though this inherent brand strength is likely to dissipate over time.

Quote from: Skywalker;581646Yeah, I agree that the OGL has been good for the hobby. It was just bad for WotC. Its adoption in 2000 was badly fumbled (and this was when the hole was dug).

I honestly can't tell if you're serious.  Impressive.

Quote from: Skywalker;581646Yeah, I agree that the OGL has been good for the hobby. It was just bad for WotC. Its adoption in 2000 was badly fumbled (and this was when the hole was dug) and this led to the desperate attempt in 2008 to try and recover from that mistake (and this was when WotC fell into that hole). :)

I'd quibble here, because it seems more like the OGL was great for the hobby and WotC with D&D while the OGL was bad for Hasbro when they bought out WotC because they tried to stuff the genie back in the bottle instead of embracing it.

Quote from: jeff37923;581705I'd quibble here, because it seems more like the OGL was great for the hobby and WotC with D&D while the OGL was bad for Hasbro when they bought out WotC because they tried to stuff the genie back in the bottle instead of embracing it.

The mistake was to try to put the genie back in the bottle. The OGL was a boon for WotC. It's the execs that followed that were morons to the point they thought they could roll back the OGL and the fandom would just follow "because WotC".

Quote from: Benoist;581711The mistake was to try to put the genie back in the bottle. The OGL was a boon for WotC. It's the execs that followed that were morons to the point they thought they could roll back the OGL and the fandom would just follow "because WotC".

Well, WOTC DOES include wizards. Just sayin. :p

Quote from: jeff37923;581705I'd quibble here, because it seems more like the OGL was great for the hobby and WotC with D&D while the OGL was bad for Hasbro when they bought out WotC because they tried to stuff the genie back in the bottle instead of embracing it.

WotC definitely benefitted from the OGL in the early years of 3e. However, without a plan for what came next, it was a shortsighted benefit for WotC as history has proven.

As I said above, WotC putting the genie back in the bottle was definitely a mistake. But it would have caused a lot less harm had the OGL (the hole) not happened.

Hasbro will never sell Wizards of the Coast, or Dungeons & Dragons. If they can't make any money on 5e, they might shelve it for ten years and then try again, but they'll never ditch it entirely.

As far as the OGL goes: it was the 2nd greatest thing to ever happen to the hobby.

Quote from: Skywalker;581723WotC definitely benefitted from the OGL in the early years of 3e. However, without a plan for what came next, it was a shortsighted benefit for WotC as history has proven.

As I said above, WotC putting the genie back in the bottle was definitely a mistake. But it would have caused a lot less harm had the OGL (the hole) not happened.

They never stopped benefitting from it.  But they absolutely needed to continue making good product.  

Their biggest deficiency - adventures.  3.0 had a complete series of adventures, but 3.5 only had 'super modules', and they came pretty late.  

I think if they had really supported the OGL with their ongoing releases, it would have continued to pay dividends.  Compatibility of products was a big selling point in 3.5, but as WotC continued to release more and more material that could not be supported by third parties (such as in adventure modules) it makes it harder and harder for DMs to use the new material.  If DMs can't use it, you get only players using it, and then it just feels like 'munchkinism'.  If you never meet an NPC villain that is a scout, it's hard to see that as a legitimate PC class.  

That's really where I think they made their mistake.

Quote from: Skywalker;581723WotC definitely benefitted from the OGL in the early years of 3e. However, without a plan for what came next, it was a shortsighted benefit for WotC as history has proven.

I'm sure Ryan will be along shortly to disabuse you, but this is flat wrong. From inception, WotC openly articulated a long-term vision for the OGL. One element, for example, was that winning mechanics or improvements developed by 3rd parties would be rolled back into the core d20 system.

Now this plan, like any plan, probably would not have stood without significant revision over the years. But we'll never know, because it was never really implemented. As management within WotC changed, the plan for the OGL changed and the company steadily retreated from the original vision, until you eventually ended up with a closed 4e.

So the problem wasn't that WotC didn't have a plan for what came next with the OGL. The problem was the plan wasn't followed, and the people who made that call really didn't seem to understand the OGL.

The big mistake WotC made was to release an OGL without a standard substructure.  I thing grandfathering in D&D legacies like AC and HD was a mistake too if they ever wanted a functional generic game, they only work in the narrow, narrow context of D&D and didn't even make sense in the context of 3e.  Crappy design work there as I've always said.

But I'm beating a dead horse or a dead whore house or something.

The substructure issue's the big problem though.  D&D's been proving that crappy game design can win in the marketplace for fourty years now.  There needed to be standard limits that couldn't be violated if you wanted to produce OGL material.  Instead what we got was lots of horribly unbalanced classes and feats from not only third party publishers but WotC themselves.

Bearing in mind of course that I believe D&D's core game is fundamentally brilliant for what it was designed to do and that the implementation found in all the editions has been the real problem.

Quote from: David Johansen;581775The big mistake WotC made was to release an OGL without a standard substructure.  I thing grandfathering in D&D legacies like AC and HD was a mistake too if they ever wanted a functional generic game, they only work in the narrow, narrow context of D&D and didn't even make sense in the context of 3e.  Crappy design work there as I've always said.

But I'm beating a dead horse or a dead whore house or something.

The substructure issue's the big problem though.  D&D's been proving that crappy game design can win in the marketplace for fourty years now.  There needed to be standard limits that couldn't be violated if you wanted to produce OGL material.  Instead what we got was lots of horribly unbalanced classes and feats from not only third party publishers but WotC themselves.

Bearing in mind of course that I believe D&D's core game is fundamentally brilliant for what it was designed to do and that the implementation found in all the editions has been the real problem.

I see that you also have your own retroclone.  Care to share with us the brilliant part of D&D you retained and what crappy parts you excised?

Wow this thread is way off track!

The current version is a neo-clone really, what can I say, everyone was doing it last year :)

Originally it was as much an attempt to illustrate what the core of D&D is for the sake of debate rather than an attempt to compete in the retro clone market.  It just goes to show how far I'll go to make a point.  As for what I kept* and what I dropped it's easy enough to take a look for yourself.

Sadly, it didn't revive any great love of D&D in me.  It works well for what it was intended to do but isn't much use for anything else.

*Just to summarize, attributes, race, class, experience points, levels / hit dice, vancian magic, armor class, saving throws.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;581456I'm not so sure about the 'first' time part.  Judges Guild offered materials with the D&D logo in the 70's and early 80's that was widely accepted as part of D&D.

That's true, but things changed very quickly after that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Skywalker;581565A hole dug for them by the OGL.

Only in the sense that they were seen as trying to reject it and shut down their previous openness. They violated the ancient and sacred rule we all learned as children:"No Take-backs".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RSDancey;581568If this were true, why hasn't Paizo^2 emerged and produced Pathfinder^2 to do to Pathfinder what Pathfinder did to Dungeons & Dragons?

Why was D&D 3.5 able to convert many (most?) of the 3e players?  It faced competition from many, many other games with very similar rules?

I think that MMOs did far more to hurt D&D than the OGL did (well, to be honest I don't think the OGL hurt D&D at all, in fact I think it was critical to its renaissance).

But Wizards of the Coast dug their own hole, starting with the day they said "we are not working on 4th edition" when they were, followed by the day they said "we will not announce 4th edition this year" when they knew they would, and capped off when they said "there will be an Open Game license for use with 4th edition" when they were clearly unwilling to create one.

Everything after that was just post script.

That's absolutely right.  Fortunately, I think now they're trying very hard to make amends.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Endless Flight;581737Hasbro will never sell Wizards of the Coast, or Dungeons & Dragons. If they can't make any money on 5e, they might shelve it for ten years and then try again, but they'll never ditch it entirely.

I've heard this as well, and would put forward that with a company as big as Hasbro is, the opportunity cost in not making the sale is pretty small.

From what little I can find online, Hasbro hasn't ever sold any IP, and only seldom even licenses it out.

Quote from: RPGPundit;582022That's absolutely right.  Fortunately, I think now they're trying very hard to make amends.

They should make amends by creating an SRD for 4th edition and releasing it under the OGL v 1.0a.  The game is effectively commercially dead, so there's no economic harm that could come to Wizards.

And they should commit to releasing an SRD for D&D Next under the OGL v1.0a too, and then keep that commitment.   I haven't seen or read anything that looks like it couldn't be reverse engineered anyway under existing OGL Open Game Content so there's no genie to put back into a bottle but it would be a show of good faith.

RyanD

Quote from: mcbobbo;582211From what little I can find online, Hasbro hasn't ever sold any IP, and only seldom even licenses it out.

They sold Lincoln Logs and the new company turned it into a healthy little business.  Everyone involved at Hasbro was tarred as idiots.  They'll never make that mistake again.

Quote from: RSDancey;582298They sold Lincoln Logs and the new company turned it into a healthy little business.  Everyone involved at Hasbro was tarred as idiots.  They'll never make that mistake again.

This sounds interesting, did Lincoln Logs break the threshold that Hasbro typically wants their toy line to sell at under K'nex stewardship?

Quote from: RSDancey;582298They sold Lincoln Logs and the new company turned it into a healthy little business.  Everyone involved at Hasbro was tarred as idiots.  They'll never make that mistake again.

If my Google-fu is to be trusted they licensed the product in 1999, and must have decided it's working, since in February they announced:

K'NEX BRANDS And HASBRO Announce TINKERTOY® Licensing Partnership And 2012 Product

Quote from: RSDancey;582296They should make amends by creating an SRD for 4th edition and releasing it under the OGL v 1.0a.  The game is effectively commercially dead, so there's no economic harm that could come to Wizards.

And they should commit to releasing an SRD for D&D Next under the OGL v1.0a too, and then keep that commitment.   I haven't seen or read anything that looks like it couldn't be reverse engineered anyway under existing OGL Open Game Content so there's no genie to put back into a bottle but it would be a show of good faith.

RyanD

We still don't know what they're position on Next will be.  I don't think there'd be much point in creating an SRD for 4e, because its pretty obvious not enough people like it to make any product for it.

Its kind of irrelevant anyways, since you don't need an SRD to make 3rd party products.

RPGPundit

To get back on topic, I got some bones minis and decided to paint them, and compare to regular.

First, I highly recommend priming them anyway, even if they say they don't need it.  Besides the light weight and bendyness, I think the biggest challenge is you have to really be careful not to touch an area that has been painted already.  It doesn't take much to rub the paint right off.  There is also less detail in the mold, but that's OK unless you plan on using them for display.  Things like detail for hair is one of the biggest differences.  Rather than detailed whisps that you get in metal, each hair strand is about as thick as one of their fingers.  When you paint, it looks like like hair and more like a glob.

I'll see if I can get a picture of one of the ones I did.  Be warned though, I'm an amateur painter and not a great one by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;582753I'll see if I can get a picture of one of the ones I did.  Be warned though, I'm an amateur painter and not a great one by any stretch of the imagination.

Send me one, and I will see what I can do.  ;)

You have the right of it, though.  Instead of sitting here speculating on the figs, I should just go get a pack and see how they turn out.  Good time to see if my paints will re-constitute, too.

OK, here are two of them.  Again, keep in mind I'm no professional painter.  I have a few touchup things to do, but you can get the gist of it.

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/backgnoll.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/frontgnoll.jpg)

WTF are you talking about? This is good painting, dude!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;582817OK, here are two of them.  Again, keep in mind I'm no professional painter.  I have a few touchup things to do, but you can get the gist of it.

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/backgnoll.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/frontgnoll.jpg)

Geez, did you just dip them in a paint can and call it good?  Do you use brushes or rollers?  Don't post this horrible crap ever again.  :rolleyes:

:D

Maybe you should consider submitting some of these for consideration in various contests or what-have-you.

Thanks, but my drybrushing sucks.  I have no idea how they do it so well for the good stuff.  And my hand isn't nearly as steady as it once was.  Nor is my eyesight.  I had to finally break down and get a magnifying lamp.

To put these into context of comparison, the bugbear and others were minis I painted in the mid 80s.  The wyvern is one I did in the mid 90s.  So the plastic ones should be fine for gaming use as far as detail of the model goes.

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/SNC00026.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/Picture002.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/Picture001.jpg)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;582854Thanks, but my drybrushing sucks.  I have no idea how they do it so well for the good stuff.  And my hand isn't nearly as steady as it once was.  Nor is my eyesight.  I had to finally break down and get a magnifying lamp.

As I understand it, drybrushing works best with ink instead of paint.  I was only getting around to a modicum of skill before putting everything away and not getting back to it again.  It takes a lot of practice and a lot of going over the same area to get the effect just right.

Okay, some painting tips.

Dry brushing is best done with a fairly large horse hair brush, a nice soft one.  You want highly pigmented paint that's thick enough to be a bit gloppy.  Don't use inks or a damp brush whatever you do they'll just streak everything.  It's called dry brushing for a reason, you're really depositing fine layers of dust on the figure's high points.  You're better off starting with your base color and adding a touch of white or yellow (for brown, orange, and red) and doing three or four progressively lighter passes.  This works well if you can do a batch of three or four figures at a pass.  It's also a good idea to get all your drybrushing done before painting belts and straps and pouches.

Washes can be done with thin coats of good paint or inks.  If you're using inks you need to be careful to only put the wash where you want it as they can really darken your base coat.  Good paint, like liquetex artist's acrylics or the pre Iron Wind Ral Partha paints can be thined out and used to do nice washes.

Craft store paint is garbage so it's not great for either technique but it's fantastic for scenery that you don't want to waste expensive paint on.

Quote from: David Johansen;582884Washes can be done with thin coats of good paint or inks.

Washes!  Dammit, inks are used for washes!

Clearly, I will have to start over from the beginning again.  :)

Quote from: David Johansen;582884Okay, some painting tips.

Dry brushing is best done with a fairly large horse hair brush, a nice soft one.  You want highly pigmented paint that's thick enough to be a bit gloppy.  Don't use inks or a damp brush whatever you do they'll just streak everything.  It's called dry brushing for a reason, you're really depositing fine layers of dust on the figure's high points.  You're better off starting with your base color and adding a touch of white or yellow (for brown, orange, and red) and doing three or four progressively lighter passes.  This works well if you can do a batch of three or four figures at a pass.  It's also a good idea to get all your drybrushing done before painting belts and straps and pouches..

Yeah, I know, but it feels like I waste so much paint getting so just a tad is left on the brush, and it's against the core of my being to waste stuff ;)

How hard core are you feeling?

I ask because pastels are pretty much pure pigment and come in a fantastic array of colors.  Finely ground pastel can be used to drybrush.  Serious model builders use them to weather tanks and pre-ground stuff can be obtained through the model trade.

There's no waste that way but you do need to put a good fixative on the figure as there's no binding agent neither can you handle any other part of the figure than the base while painting it.  You also need the figure to be just the right dampness for it to stick at all.

So, like painting non-metallic metallics using oil paints it's one of those advanced party tricks for the truly hard core painter.

Quote from: RPGPundit;582744We still don't know what they're position on Next will be.  I don't think there'd be much point in creating an SRD for 4e, because its pretty obvious not enough people like it to make any product for it.

Its kind of irrelevant anyways, since you don't need an SRD to make 3rd party products.

RPGPundit

It's not at all about the commercial rationale.  It's a public, irrevocable way of saying "we're sorry, we screwed up, here's the one thing we can do that might help.  Now go and hybridize!"

RyanD

Quote from: RSDancey;582916It's not at all about the commercial rationale.  It's a public, irrevocable way of saying "we're sorry, we screwed up, here's the one thing we can do that might help.  Now go and hybridize!"

RyanD

Maybe, except I also think it kind of depends on just how bad a fuckup (in terms of market loss) 4e really was.  They might even end up winning more people over by just ignoring 4e completely, but making a big deal of 5e being Open.  
Both are implicit admissions that their previous policies were a big mistake, but the latter doesn't draw attention to an edition that they might (at this point) just want as many people as possible to forget about completely, while drawing people's attention to their new edition with which they hope to fix things.

RPGPundit

If there's one thing I've learned about certain 4e fans, is that they will actively try to coordinate a boycott of a product they don't like based upon largely false or otherwise minor issues.

Quote from: RSDancey;582296They should make amends by creating an SRD for 4th edition and releasing it under the OGL v 1.0a.  The game is effectively commercially dead, so there's no economic harm that could come to Wizards.

And they should commit to releasing an SRD for D&D Next under the OGL v1.0a too, and then keep that commitment.   I haven't seen or read anything that looks like it couldn't be reverse engineered anyway under existing OGL Open Game Content so there's no genie to put back into a bottle but it would be a show of good faith.

This seems like the sensible thing for WotC to do at this point, though I suspect they may delay opening up 4e to the SRD until after 5e is released if for no other reason than giving them time to work out their position on 5e and the SRD.

On saying that, as we can see from 13th Age, its not hard to create material that pretty much utilises 4e's mechanics already in any case. All a delay will do is create an opportunity for everyone else to ignore the work they did from 2008 to 2012.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583093If there's one thing I've learned about certain 4e fans, is that they will actively try to coordinate a boycott of a product they don't like based upon largely false or otherwise minor issues.

Where as fans of other editions will eagerly buy product they don't like? :D

4e has hardcore fans like any other edition, for sure, and the current position certainly makes them vocal. But there are still plenty that play other editions of D&D and/or are looking forward to 5e.

Quote from: Skywalker;583097Where as fans of other editions will eagerly buy product they don't like? :D
.

Of course not.  But I haven't seen fans of other editions actively try to coordinate boycotts of other competing products.  If WoTC forsakes 4e completely, I can see these people actively trying to sabotage 5e as much as they can.  Might not have a big impact in the scope of things anyway, but it wouldn't surprise me to see them try it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583103Of course not.  But I haven't seen fans of other editions actively try to coordinate boycotts of other competing products.

I have seen similar things when D&D went to 2e, 3e and 4e (hell, editions changes of many RPGs often cause groups to actively attack fans of new editions). Then again, I recall you saying on another thread that you had less unpleasant experiences than me with previous edition changes, so that may explain it :)

Quote from: Skywalker;583105I have seen similar things when D&D went to 2e, 3e and 4e

Your definition of 'similar' may be wider than the one commonly used.  Unless the alternate dimension you're from had internet in the 80's.  Also I remember 2e being basically dead in the years leading up to the launch of 3e, because in my dimension TSR had ran it into the ground by 1997.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583103Of course not.  But I haven't seen fans of other editions actively try to coordinate boycotts of other competing products.  If WoTC forsakes 4e completely, I can see these people actively trying to sabotage 5e as much as they can.  Might not have a big impact in the scope of things anyway, but it wouldn't surprise me to see them try it.

The people who would try to do that would do that anyways. There'll be nothing you can do to appease them short of not releasing a 5e.  

RPGPundit

Quote from: mcbobbo;583186Your definition of 'similar' may be wider than the one commonly used.  Unless the alternate dimension you're from had internet in the 80's.  Also I remember 2e being basically dead in the years leading up to the launch of 3e, because in my dimension TSR had ran it into the ground by 1997.

I assumed that readers would automatically add context to the word "similar" :)

I encountered several 1e groups that were hostile and took active steps to try and stop people playing 2e when it was released. This including barring one GM from running 2e at a games club where 1e was prevalent. Also, the internet did exist when 3e came out and there was a strong anti-3e stance from some fans of older editions at the time.

The point is that the fans of last editions are always going to seem louder as their voices are more recent. If anything, advances in technology, such as the internet, are just going to amplify this as it enhances the ability to communicate. However, the phenomena is not new.

Quote from: RPGPundit;583505The people who would try to do that would do that anyways. There'll be nothing you can do to appease them short of not releasing a 5e.

If they are whacked out enough to to try and sabotage 5e, I am guessing that the release of 5e will only fuel their anger. Passage of time will appease them more, along with the release of 6e :)

Quote from: Skywalker;583522The point is that the fans of last editions are always going to seem louder as their voices are more recent. If anything, advances in technology, such as the internet, are just going to amplify this as it enhances the ability to communicate. However, the phenomena is not new.

I believe the amplification is key, but the forum even existing is crucial.  In the 1e days feedback came from person-to-person contact, letters, and other low-bandwidth sources.  So the magnitude of the input was on a different scale, and I think the difference is enough to make it its own phenomenon.  Rather how the Model T is distinct from the buggy, even though they both have four wheels, use the same scale chassis, etc.