Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 12:48:43 PM

Greetings!

Really nice exhortation, Opaopajr! I always love the way you chew on these things so philosophically, my friend. Your analysis often seems to have one foot in history, one foot in philosophy, and...maybe another foot in literature.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Bless you, good buddy SHARK.  I was once authoritatively told that last foot was somewhere in the clouds... around pre-school, I believe. Oh dear, no, I misremember, that was my head. 

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 27, 2023, 05:39:28 AM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 12:48:43 PM

Greetings!

Really nice exhortation, Opaopajr! I always love the way you chew on these things so philosophically, my friend. Your analysis often seems to have one foot in history, one foot in philosophy, and...maybe another foot in literature.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Bless you, good buddy SHARK.  I was once authoritatively told that last foot was somewhere in the clouds... around pre-school, I believe. Oh dear, no, I misremember, that was my head. 

Greetings!

Thank you, Opaopajr!

*Laughing* "Somewhere in the clouds!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

Stephen, another thought. If changing the economy to a *Silver Standard* and embracing a more Barter System model as a companion dynamic doesn't work for you or your campaign, I think you can also approach the situation with some other ideas, too.

(1) Ignore economics entirely, and just embrace the Conan-model of GOLD AND JEWELS!

OR

(2) Make sure characters involved guard, protect, and carefully transport such a vast treasure to elsewhere, some secure location. From which, introducing *modest* spending within the economy, and go from there. Having them actually also travel elsewhere, to more distant foreign markets or cities, buying stuff from A, then stuff from B, and son on can act to "spread the wealth around" and otherwise not crash and burn a particular local economy. That way, the characters can still enjoy some ungodly wealth, while still maintaining some plausible sense of economic stability for the campaign as a whole. This option also opens the door to potentially *many* interesting game sessions, just dealing with the mere presence and security of such a treasure horde. Yes, indeed, this can also easily require or bring into conflict one or more armies. Wars can even start from this. Lots of diplomatic opportunities, old hatreds and grudges, weird treaties, blood oaths made by firelight....yeah, all kinds of fun drama!

Lots of excellent potentials here!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The simple reply is that everyone will want that treasure and they will try to get it by whatever means they have available.  How that works in individual cases will vary a lot, but the end result is similar.  Bandits will try to just take it.  So will urban criminals.  Applicable churches will ask for a tithe.  The government will want a tax.  A despot might simply seize it.  Merchants will charge as much as they can get away with.  Swindlers will flock to the party, as well as those providing legitimate or not-so-legitimate goods and services.  Folks will appear out of the woodwork and claim, truthfully or otherwise, that the loot was part of their family's property.  Or stolen from their ancestors.  Or created by their ancestors and is thus rightfully theirs.

There are a lot of modern and historical examples to look to,  I've read the gold rush miners generally didn't get rich even when they found gold - the merchants who supplied them with gear and food managed to capture most of it.  The Spanish stole gold from the Aztecs and Incans, and so on, but a lot was then re-stolen from them by privateers and pirates.  In the case of Nuestra Senora de las Merceds, an American treasure hunting company found an enormously valuable shipwreck in international waters off the coast of Portugal, a Spanish galleon sunk by an English warship full of Peruvian gold and silver.  The US courts ruled that the treasure be turned over in toto to the Spanish government.  US taxes on found treasure, if you're luck enough to be allowed to keep it, can take over half of your findings.

I think this is what would really happen.  In a game, the more important question is if the players would enjoy this kind of anti-dungeon where they're trying to keep their treasure while everyone else tries to get it away from them.  If yes, then I would add some complications.  If not, then I'd skip it - it goes in the bank and it's on to the next adventure.

oops

  It is true that when big money shows up the "middle men" who all want a slice come right after.   I do think in a setting where the treasure holders are able to inflict big violence in a short time might mitigate how heavy handed or pushy said middle men would be.   I do think attaching some problems with a big haul can be interesting, but I hate the IRS enough in real life I do not care to over role play the party having to deal with their fantasy mirror image.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2023, 05:43:33 AM
  It is true that when big money shows up the "middle men" who all want a slice come right after.   I do think in a setting where the treasure holders are able to inflict big violence in a short time might mitigate how heavy handed or pushy said middle men would be.   I do think attaching some problems with a big haul can be interesting, but I hate the IRS enough in real life I do not care to over role play the party having to deal with their fantasy mirror image.

That's fair.  When I run a game with big hauls, I tend to put my thumb on the scale for the players on the resolution, though, instead of the facts.  That is, if they make some modest effort to keep a low profile, with the idea that they don't want the middle-men after their haul, I'll probably just rule that it works.  Or at the very least, give them highly favorable odds.  I won't have the King's tax agents chasing them for the rest of their lives.  That's no more fun than 21st century Seattle views in a fantasy game.  On the other hand, if the players are just showing off, anything could happen.  The threat of middle-men is more valuable than the reality.

There's nothing that's necessarily sinister, adversarial, gotcha-ish, or screw-over-the-players about a substantial tax on a treasure haul.

Look, if you're farming, and you've got one guy who owns the land, one guy with the know-how to know what and when to plant and who bears the risk if the yield underperforms, and another group of people who do all the work, nobody is going to be astonished that the land-owner is going to get a cut just like the risk-taker and the laborers.

Well, if you're delving into a dungeon that happens to lie within the borders of a kingdom, why wouldn't that be presumed de facto owned by the king, and why wouldn't the king get their cut? One-third is perfectly fair. One share for the landowner, and the PC party gets two shares as both the risk-takers and the ones carrying out the actual labor of the task.

If the king is demanding half, okay, then he's being a dick. And that wasn't necessarily an uncommon thing. But if he's asking for just a 10% tax, then he's being a push-over.

When the party clears out a hex, then any dungeon within that hex they can plunder without paying the king.

If you're gaming in a medieval setting, banking is going to be primitive and unreliable. That is a defining characteristic of a medieval economy. Establishing more reliable banking, and sophisticated financial institutions like a stock market, is what takes you into the Renaissance.

Also: an adventurer who comes back with wagon-loads of gold is in a position to BECOME the bank.

What would the realistic effects be?  Not too different from what the Knight of the Dinner Table results would be.

Antics would ensue.

1. Where'd they get the money, and who is going to claim it was stolen from them?
2. What form is it in?  Some Nemedian Scholar might spend good Gold Dragons for some Acheronian Nickel pieces, but 10,000 of them?
3. How are you going to cart it?  If you can't carry it hidden, almost no point to try and get it back to civilization.
4. Hey, the King granted you a 1000L a year estate, that you can't afford to upkeep because he took most of your treasure.  But at least you can grant it to a Church, who will Title you Defender of the Faith, and let you live on and manage your land for them...as long as you adventure for them for the rest of your life...or until you can't pick up a sword anymore, then it's off to a dirt poor monastery.
5. Battle of the Five Armies.

Stuff like this is just automatic stuff the GM should think of.  What are the players going to do?

Every day will look like the craziest episodes of Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Shield, Ozark, and Sons of Anarchy simultaneously as they attempt to become business owners, crime lords, pillars of the community, an Estate of their society, etc.

The things that happen to your average Lottery winner are so bad it's launched a cottage industry of helping people avoid the pitfalls.

Basically, the best thing to do is "tell no one until you have a plan the logistics of which make D-Day look like a Potluck", or else you're gonna lose it all.

It doesn't even have to be forged. Titles and lands that have no heir typically revert to the crown, but at some point it might be advantageous to hand them out again.

But noble titles are just 'up for purchase' (though it does happen). A canny king might offer an adventuring group a deal: a land grant, in exchange for a cut of the windfall. No government ever complained about having too much money. Said king might sweeten the deal with a proposal that any further windfalls found on the land would be untaxed (figuring that once the adventurers have cleared out the riff-raff, they'll have to plow any gains back into restoring said lands and buildings).

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
It doesn't even have to be forged. Titles and lands that have no heir typically revert to the crown, but at some point it might be advantageous to hand them out again.

But noble titles are just 'up for purchase' (though it does happen). A canny king might offer an adventuring group a deal: a land grant, in exchange for a cut of the windfall. No government ever complained about having too much money. Said king might sweeten the deal with a proposal that any further windfalls found on the land would be untaxed (figuring that once the adventurers have cleared out the riff-raff, they'll have to plow any gains back into restoring said lands and buildings).

Greetings!

Ghostmaker, your commentary inspired me to also chew on this more. The Royal Government nearby, of all the potential flies and assorted people eagerly flocking to interfere with the player character's newly acquired fortune--is perhaps uniquely in the strongest position to actually get the players to eagerly cooperate with the agents of the King.

The government can greatly assist in all of the logistics involved in transportation of such a vast horde. Likewise, the government has exceptional abilities to help with the security, and even helping to maintain storage and site security for the treasure horde as well. Most kingdoms likely have a good number of fortresses, fortified and well-guarded dungeons, besides temples, monasteries, and wizard towers. Such governments really can make so many of these details much easier--and through their own authority, power, knowledge, and resources, the kingdom can also handle the security better.

Besides offering noble titles and aristocratic land-grants, the Royal Government can provide *Legitimacy*. Real Power. Real Prestige. The Royal Government can very much set you up for *Genrational Success*. Educational opportunities, laboratories, libraries, control of monasteries and temples, besides fortresses and castles, but also ports, harbours, mines, all kinds of things--but also on a *BIG SCALE* Stuff that can alter your entire family's social and financial position literally for generations down the line. The scope is staggering, and extremely persuasive for any such player characters to willingly engage with such a royal government.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey SHARK,

If I recall you had a campaign once where the adventurers conquered an ancient dragon's mountain lair, and it was essentially like conquering a small nation. After defeating the hordes of monster servants, soldiers, and draconic vassals, the party came into possession of a vast hoard not unlike Smaug's. Literally mountains of gold coins, magic, fabrics, rare artifacts, artworks, etc...

Quote from: Dragonblade on February 28, 2023, 05:00:01 PM
Hey SHARK,

If I recall you had a campaign once where the adventurers conquered an ancient dragon's mountain lair, and it was essentially like conquering a small nation. After defeating the hordes of monster servants, soldiers, and draconic vassals, the party came into possession of a vast hoard not unlike Smaug's. Literally mountains of gold coins, magic, fabrics, rare artifacts, artworks, etc...

Greetings!

Hah! Dragonblade! How are you, brother? Yes, that campaign you remember was *EPIC*!!! Mountains of treasure! I used many complications for dealing with such a vast treasure horde as well! Such awesome fun!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 08:53:24 AM
Stuff like this is just automatic stuff the GM should think of.  What are the players going to do?

Players are equally greedy and clever. If they even get a whiff of taxes, they'll hide their treasure, sneak it around, or camp outside the city and send one player into the town for supplies. And once players get a hold of Teleport, Fly, or a bag of holding, you can forget about anyone in power ever learning what the player's actually possess.

Also, what games are you guys playing where the party is getting large amounts of spendable cash in a dungeon delve? In D&D, at least the older ones, the vast majority of treasure value will be magic items or jewelry. Both of those have issues with converting to cash outside of the current discussion.