Inspired by the Mediaeval Prices thread.

The classic dungeon crawl, of course, always features coming back to civilization with chests and sacks of coins and jewels, and a lot of times the only acknowledgement the old-school rulebooks would note about this is that it would usually immediately cause drastic price inflation when the PCs start spending it -- the in-game goal, presumably, being to get the players to deplete their wealth as fast as they acquired it. In Barbarians of Lemuria this dynamic is even explicitly enshrined in the rules -- players don't track the currency value of their loot, it's simply explicitly assumed that it's all spent on luxury and riotous living and gone by the time of the next adventure, and its only real in-game value is that players can get an extra XP for entertainingly describing how it's wasted.

Well, in the real European Middle Ages, or analogous settings like Harn or Westeros where there's more attention paid to gritty bits like this, what actually would be the result of a small party of adventurers returning to a typical mediaeval city with a cartload of portable, fungible wealth? If they were not themselves nobles, could they reasonably expect the local ruler to allow them to retain their wealth? If they were nobles, how would they answer a liege lord who immediately bumped their taxes? Would they have to find the nearest major city with a banking house first? What are the options for non-aristocrats to permanently improve their economic situation? If they had to travel with the treasure, how long would it take for thieves and brigands to hear of this and descend on them? And so on and so on.

Both historians' speculations about actual situations like this, and creative suggestions for solutions and other actions in game, are welcomed.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 24, 2023, 04:19:52 PM
Inspired by the Mediaeval Prices thread.

The classic dungeon crawl, of course, always features coming back to civilization with chests and sacks of coins and jewels, and a lot of times the only acknowledgement the old-school rulebooks would note about this is that it would usually immediately cause drastic price inflation when the PCs start spending it -- the in-game goal, presumably, being to get the players to deplete their wealth as fast as they acquired it. In Barbarians of Lemuria this dynamic is even explicitly enshrined in the rules -- players don't track the currency value of their loot, it's simply explicitly assumed that it's all spent on luxury and riotous living and gone by the time of the next adventure, and its only real in-game value is that players can get an extra XP for entertainingly describing how it's wasted.

Well, in the real European Middle Ages, or analogous settings like Harn or Westeros where there's more attention paid to gritty bits like this, what actually would be the result of a small party of adventurers returning to a typical mediaeval city with a cartload of portable, fungible wealth? If they were not themselves nobles, could they reasonably expect the local ruler to allow them to retain their wealth? If they were nobles, how would they answer a liege lord who immediately bumped their taxes? Would they have to find the nearest major city with a banking house first? What are the options for non-aristocrats to permanently improve their economic situation? If they had to travel with the treasure, how long would it take for thieves and brigands to hear of this and descend on them? And so on and so on.

Both historians' speculations about actual situations like this, and creative suggestions for solutions and other actions in game, are welcomed.

I think a lot of it depends on how much money you are talking about that the adventurers introduce into the local economy and how big that local economy is.

If they bring in say 100 gold nobles to a small village and start spending like crazy, the locals would probably charge them more if they knew how much the party has.  If they kept it quiet and just bought a bunch of stuff (and didn't corner the market on something), then inflation probably wouldn't be much.

If it's a major city, then 100 gold nobles might not even be a blip on how much money is flowing through the city on a daily basis.

The local governments will want a cut (probably 10% or so) and even a local church may want a cut (10%).

I do believe there were some laws about commoners not being allowed to own gold currency, but can't remember if it was during the Roman Empire, Middle Ages, or some other time period.

The best thing to do if you strike it rich is to keep your mouth shut about it and don't live the high life unless you want unwanted attention from the local governments and thieves/brigands.

Well, it's framing the question in a different way, but part of the reason I wanted to go to a silver standard in the first place, while using larger coins, was to wean the players off of large hoards.  Specifically, I wanted them excited about more minor treasures, because I don't want to deal with the party turning up with bags of cold and then having to deal with the disruption.  So I guess my answer is to frame things such that big treasure hoards don't readily happen.

With my economy, finding a bag of 200 silver coins is a valuable treasure.  Or finding four gems worth 50 silver each. That's enough to upgrade the equipment of several starting adventurers. 

The other way to do it, of course, to use the video game term, is to have plenty of "money sinks".  Taxes and fess are obvious.  Thieves are good if you don't overuse them.  Inflation certainly works.  Less good is magic item shops, though if you keep a lid on the worst excesses, selling a few potions can eat into a fund pretty darn fast.  I like a small but significant chunk of coins changing hands as part of an otherwise barter deal.  For example, the local mage will trade the information for one of his low-powered spells for one of your low-powered spells--if you'll toss in 30 silver as a sweetener for the deal.

From Dragon Quest, I've adopted having some costs associated with magic and rituals that are optional, but cause the spell to function somewhat more reliably and/or better.  You can just cast the spell if you want, but if you grind up silver into a powder and spread it in a ring around the target, the spell is more effective. 

There's the ever-popular training costs. The usual problem with training costs is that the rates are set purely as money sinks, i.e. game mechanics, instead of being built into the economy as logical things.  Sink seem less contrived if there are several of them, ways to work around them, but the service you are buying has value.  Of course, that frequently means that you need to make time matter, because then time is money.

Could also do like Greenwood did in Cormyr and require a charter for the adventuring group that costs money with an annual payment.

Could slide in a percentage take for the crown or something like that to lessen the amount of money.

Greetings!

Hey there Stephen Tannhauser! Good to see you my friend! You have some very interesting commentary here. Honestly, I think if a DM I thoughtful, and in fact seeking to run a more historically-grounded campaign--then yes, the task presents itself of needing to rethink the normal weird economy presented within the game books and modules. Gonzo campaigns, excepted, of course, they can indulge in all kinds of craziness, and have much less consideration for anything historical. Having said that, for a historically-grounded fantasy campaign, the "Economy Challenge" needs to be confronted.

As our friend Steven Mitchell chomps on the problem right away with instituting a *Silver Standard*. I entirely agree with instituting a *Silver Standard* I don't think it is entirely necessary to go through all kinds of weights and measures, trying to figure every good and commodity and value down to the last ounce. That can have some attractions, but I tend to believe it is much more grueling effort and time than is worthwhile--for comparatively little "payback" or benefit for such an investment. (I know of what I speak of! I've set out at different times to accomplish such a process for my own campaign...and concurrently, I also picked up on how the majority of my players really don't care about all of that minutia of detail. They just want a basically simple system that works, and doesn't bog game-play down, or also important--make what their characters do in the "downtimes" an epic headache of "Paychecks and Office Work".) So, having said that, I tend towards making a few pages of economy and bartering notes, and just eyeball things and go from there. Keeping things simple, quick, and relatively consistent. It's also very much OK I prices for goods "X" or "A, B, and C" to vary significantly from one place to another, especially when you travel to different tribal regions, or different civilized kingdom and realms. Just chalk up the varying prices to supply and demand, costs of procurement, climate, season, and rarity. Just like how economies have worked historically everywhere, really.

So, a *Silver Standard* is my baseline for the general economy. Pursuing realism, and remaining aware of my own judgment, and keeping things consistent, but fast and simple. Instituting a *Silver Standard* for the basic economy also has the advantage-immediately, of changing the player's beginning premise and frame work--their characters are not going to be swimming in fountains of gold and glittering jewels. Yes, Conan routinely grabs onto chests full of gold, and sacks o glittering jewels--but as a baseline assumption, players must be disabused of such expectations immediately, right at the beginning of the campaign--or whenever they have created a character, and are first getting equipped and all that. Later on in the campaign, of course, it is always allowable to drop in some super awesome treasures--because you have already established a firm foundation, such incidents of generosity or good fortune won't suddenly wreck your entire campaign.

Thus, from the beginning then, Players are confronted with the common expectations that their characters are typically dealing with modest amounts of coins and such coin-based economic wealth as composed of Copper and Silver coins. Gold is for royal governments, nobles, huge counting houses, caravan companies, and armies. It is not a form of currency typically seen--let alone used--by normal businesses, and normal people and citizenry. All of this really by itself does most of the heavy lifting for the DM and running the campaign's economy. Make just about everything cost in copper and silver, and smaller amounts of gold, based on rarity, technology, value, and craftsmanship.

THEN, once that is established and determined, I overlay that with a common and robust Barter Economy. Medieval and ancient people routinely traded goods and services--furs and a tool, for a pig, some eggs, and a chest full of bread, for example. Or Mr. Brogg's wife will cook you and your friends lunch and dinner for a month, in return for you and your friends helping him deal with his problem of wolf packs eating his goats from his goat herd. The variables and creativity are endless. Also, when you institute a Bartering system, you can readily see the differences from a "Subsistence Economy" to a "Capital Economy". I say that as a note towards what exactly people view as "profit" and how they even view what "profit" is to begin with. It also helps greatly that when combining a more modest *Silver Standard* as a form of coin-based economy, with that of a Barter Economy, I call it a "Mixed Economy". In my own Thandor Campaign, I have economic forms divided into three different kinds--Barter Economy; Mixed Economy; Coin-Based Economy, with Coin-Based Economy potentially having an additional qualifier of "Advanced Coin-Based Economy" which embraces paper currency, Letters of Credit, Interest Rates, Investments, and advanced banking systems. Advanced Economies are generally pretty rare in Thandor, limited to the largest, or otherwise very powerful empires and advanced kingdoms.

These principles, when embraced and instituted in the campaign, have HUGE waterfall effects on transforming the very idea of wealth, of success, or redefining everyone's *perception* of what wealth and success, as well as what profit looks like. These principles fundamentally change the practical definitions and meaning of wealth for everyone in the campaign society, including the Player Characters.

As a historical note, these kinds of real-world dynamics make a whole lot more sense when, with jaw-dropping awe, we read of Alexander the Great leading his valiant army against the mighty Persian Empire, and at the climactic storming of the great capital, Persepolis, when the treasuries were opened, and Alexander waved with his hands, and declared every man in his army could take whatever they wanted, they could keep for themselves all the treasures they could gather to themselves! Historians say as I recall, Alexander seized over 200,000 talents of GOLD, from Persepolis alone. To give you a staggering idea of the scope, something like 100 people could live a comfortable life on ONE TALENT IN A YEAR. Considering all the literal tons of gold, herds of animals, whole ships and caravans full of every fine thing and exotic treasure one could possibly imagine that Alexander captured during his 10 year conquest of the Persian Empire--it dawns on one to begin to comprehend how Alexander made each one of his soldiers mighty and wealthy princes. The lowest soldier then literally had for himself the treasures that only in the past princes, chieftains, and kings would have had. Truth be told, Alexander's conquests and the booty he gave to his men--not just his famous generals, either, but to all of his warriors--it becomes apparent that they represented a level of wealth that put all of their tribal noble's and kings back home to shame. They were paupers by comparison. The soldiers of Alexander had become an entirely new, unimaginably wealthy class of warrior princes.

Many of Alexander's soldiers were so astronomically wealthy from their victorious conquests, that they virtually *instantly* became if not kings, then a permanent and mighty part of any local aristocracy that they subsequently cared to join. (See references in Greek armies and nobility throughout Egypt, Persia, Central Asia, and also north-west India). These men established themselves as permanent noble aristocrats of king-making wealth and influence in all of these far flung countries which lasted for *generations*--and frequently, even *centuries* That is how much wealth was being embraced. Interesting stuff! Absolutely mind-blowing, my friend!

Alright. I digress. I'm currently enjoying smoking my pipe, and I just poured a fresh cup of French Roast coffee for my YETI Tumbler. So, when I have embraced these principles, I have discovered how much easier it is to manage everything, and anything in the economy. As for monsters and their treasures, well, this too, undergoes a transformation. Monsters have weapons, some fine clothes, a chest or wagon of tools, and God forbid, a barrel of PEPPER. Even a relatively modest quantity of a few one-pound sacks or coffers or urns of exotic spices--including mundane spices like Pepper and Salt--these are real treasures, that many people will be eager to trade goods or services, or both, for. Also, keep in mind too, the value of animals. Herds of goats, sheep, even a few cows. (Cattle was the main form of currency in Ireland tribal culture for centuries). Horses are extremely valuable, especially so to Steppe tribal peoples like the Mongols. Yes, horses were largely their form of common currency, too. Along with goats. In addition to many kinds of animals, people are valuable. Slaves, of course. But other forms of value exist as well. Trading or gifting bond servants, or the fruits of such craftsman's *labour* for example, for a particular period of time. Say, a local clothing merchant offers 25% of the work that his staff of weavers produce for a season, or two. Bartering is generally straightforward, but it can also embrace surprising levels of detail and sophistication.

Ah, yes. Another historical aside. In heroic mythology, we can see Celtic nobles, as well as Bards, Druids, and normal people like farers and craftsmen, trading goods and services, including trading their daughters hand in marriage to men they especially favoured and thought well of. Also, composing a story, or a poem, or formalizing YOUR family history an deeds, and sung or told about surrounding halls fires and hearths. That, too, was a great honour, and also a form of reward or payment for whatever. Giving as a gift o service the loyal service of a group of fighting men or warriors, that too, was a form of currency. Also, a good hunting dog, a guard dog, they too, were very valuable. Likewise, the Norse cultures were also very similar in this regard as well. Then you also get into rewards and currencies of Love, of Loyalty, Marriage again, and things like Friendship and Honour. To our modern society, we might think it is quaint--but I've read of what normal Norse farmers and warriors thought of being declared another man's friend or brother really meant. It meant they were willing to share almost anything with each other, share their wealth, newly found good fortune, their food, helping each other with labour or other projects, besides of course, fighting and defending each other. The Norse customs also included your friends arguing for you in court tribunals, for whatever kind of dispute you may have had. And, of course, such friends and "brothers"--were heavily encouraged to marry each other's sons and daughters, or sisters, cousins, and so on. These men were at the top of the list for even more close bonds of blood and kinship. These considerations were also not necessarily done either based on the person's individual wealth, per se, but as importantly on their honour, their character, for their loyalty as friends, even from years long past. Honour itself and loyalty, and honesty, and hard work, these things too, were extremely valued, and a form of bonding, reward, and kind of currency.

I'm reminded also of how Ghengis Khan, when he was but a young warrior--gave to the young girl Bortei a fine black Ermine fur, as a bride-price. Her father was immediately impressed, and also granted his consent and blessing. Bortei--young and beautiful Bortei--treasured her black Ermine fur forever, and became a fiercely loyal and devoted wife to Ghengis Khan. Later, when Ghengis Khan had been made a slave and was imprisoned in the Xia Empire--in a tower prison in the capital--Bortei traded her body to a traveling merchant for weeks, to take her to the city where Ghengs Khan was enslaved. Bortei negotiated with his guards and bribed them, being able to slip Ghengis Khan a key to free him from his shackles. Bortei then helped Ghengis Khan to escape, and they made their way out of the city, and back to his tribes, hundreds of miles to the east. Bortei then helped Ghengis re-establish his authority over the tribes, and he raised new armies from being previously defeated by his blood-brother years earlier. Bortei knew she was destined for greatness and eternal glory. Ghengis Khan eventually returned to the Xia Empire like seven years later, accompanied by his now mighty army. An old Buddist priest that had helped Ghengis by taking word to Bortei of where exactly he was imprisoned, and foretold that Ghengis would come again, and bring the "Terrible Times" of wrath and fire. The old priest asked that Ghengis would remember him in kindness.

Ghengis Khan returned, and the Xia Empire was utterly annihilated in a storm of wrath and fire. Everything was slaughtered and burned. Except the temple where the old priest was. Ghengis Khan ordered that the old priest was to be given a Yurt next to his own yurt, and a hundred horses. All obeyed the mighty Khan, and Ghengis remembered the old priest and honoured him.

So, those are some of my thoughts on organizing and changing the campaign economy to an economy based on a *Silver Standard* and also a Barter System, with varying added levels of Tribal honour customs and kinship.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK 

Quote from: SHARK on February 24, 2023, 10:39:56 PM
Greetings!

...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK 

Really excellent read. Coming at it from a modern perspective, it's obvious how a lot of this understanding was lost in TTRPGs over the past few decades, and how earlier games (without trying, really) captured aspects of this rich social fabric much more capably.

Mansa Musa was king of Malian Empire during the fourteenth century. He travelled to Mecca on pilgrimage, and decided to be generous along the way. However, since he was one of the richest people in history, and he took tens of thousands of followers and slaves, along with dozens of camels weighed down with gold, he had quite the economic impact.

The gold-based economies of Cairo, Mecca and Medina were wrecked by the spending of a man who gave out gold bars to beggars, and they didn't recover from the hyperinflation for a decade. If gold can have that impact on a city, adventurers spending it in a village would be even greater. I imagine that farmers and like would be OK, but moneylenders in nearby towns would see their value pretty much wiped out.

As to putting it in a single bank? The bank owners have now become vastly richer than their business could make them. They might well declare their own fiefdom, hiring the muscle to back up their claim.

Don't forget that all the adventurers friends and family will just happen to come out of the wood work and look them up.  They'll be all too happy to forgive old grudges and, "hey, just for old times sake could you spot me a few coins for my grandma's surgery?"  Everyone will be their friend and nobody will be trustworthy.  They will be drowning in con men and gold digging lovers and relationships they thought were based on love will turn out to be more about the money afterall.  Theivery and murder and robbery will dog their steps and eager young adventurers will be breaking into their homes looking to score some treasure.

Quote from: SHARK on February 24, 2023, 10:39:56 PM
Greetings!

...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well said, Teufelhunden. Way to sound off!

Semper Fi

Quote from: Krazz on February 25, 2023, 10:25:47 AM
Mansa Musa was king of Malian Empire during the fourteenth century. He travelled to Mecca on pilgrimage, and decided to be generous along the way. However, since he was one of the richest people in history, and he took tens of thousands of followers and slaves, along with dozens of camels weighed down with gold, he had quite the economic impact.

The gold-based economies of Cairo, Mecca and Medina were wrecked by the spending of a man who gave out gold bars to beggars, and they didn't recover from the hyperinflation for a decade. If gold can have that impact on a city, adventurers spending it in a village would be even greater. I imagine that farmers and like would be OK, but moneylenders in nearby towns would see their value pretty much wiped out.

As to putting it in a single bank? The bank owners have now become vastly richer than their business could make them. They might well declare their own fiefdom, hiring the muscle to back up their claim.

Really fun idea for a villain - Bad guy who causes chaos by just giving everyone too much wealth. Hard to pull off as it's a subtle theme and you'd need to really build it over time, but would be very cool to execute successfully.

Quote from: Zelen on February 25, 2023, 03:06:43 AM

Quote from: SHARK on February 24, 2023, 10:39:56 PM
Greetings!

...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK 

Really excellent read. Coming at it from a modern perspective, it's obvious how a lot of this understanding was lost in TTRPGs over the past few decades, and how earlier games (without trying, really) captured aspects of this rich social fabric much more capably.

Greetings!

Thank you, Zelen! Thank you very much. I'm glad that you enjoyed reading!

So much understanding has been lost over the past few decades! Oh, damn yes, that's right for sure, my friend!

Honestly, listening to many gamers and DM's nowadays, not to be mean or insulting, but damn, so many of them just sound hopelessly lost and ignorant. I want to say illiterate, even though I know damn good and well they can read, but you get my point. It's like they don't really comprehend the same language when I'm when talking about campaign principles and design foundations.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Feratu on February 25, 2023, 02:26:24 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 24, 2023, 10:39:56 PM
Greetings!

...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well said, Teufelhunden. Way to sound off!

Semper Fi

Greetings!

Hey Feratu! Thank you, sir! OOH RAH! And welcome to the boards, man! We need more Marines, brother! What did you do in the Corps, Feratu? I was a SAW GUNNER. 03 forever! (0311, but you know how it goes...hey, you! HERE Marine! You get to train with THIS from now on!). Good times!

I hope my commentary about campaign principles are helpful, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark,

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I was also 0311, however after SOI at Pendleton, I was voluntold to go to Mare Island
Naval Shipyard where we had Marine Corps Security Force Battalion, Pacific.

We did a Close Quarters Battle and Combat Pistol course with .45 auto's so old, mine had the "Singer" brand stamped on the receiver. We did additional training for Fleet Antiterrorism Security Teams. After that, I was given a B-billett assignment, MOS was changed to 0311-8152 (Basic Security Guard), placed in the Personnel Reliability Program, and sent to do security work at the Limited Area on a submarine base off the hood canal in Washington State. Sometimes we escorted Soviet inspectors for START. Yeah, I said Soviets lol. Where's my Geritol? You kids get off my lawn!

Nothing glamorous, and not horrible.

Edit: START, not START II. Can't remember my treaties these days.

Quote from: Zelen on February 25, 2023, 04:24:13 PM
Really fun idea for a villain - Bad guy who causes chaos by just giving everyone too much wealth. Hard to pull off as it's a subtle theme and you'd need to really build it over time, but would be very cool to execute successfully.

Sounds like a great sceme for Poppy the Death Slaad.  I'm stealing it.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 24, 2023, 04:19:52 PM
Well, in the real European Middle Ages, or analogous settings like Harn or Westeros where there's more attention paid to gritty bits like this, what actually would be the result of a small party of adventurers returning to a typical mediaeval city with a cartload of portable, fungible wealth? If they were not themselves nobles, could they reasonably expect the local ruler to allow them to retain their wealth? If they were nobles, how would they answer a liege lord who immediately bumped their taxes? Would they have to find the nearest major city with a banking house first? What are the options for non-aristocrats to permanently improve their economic situation? If they had to travel with the treasure, how long would it take for thieves and brigands to hear of this and descend on them? And so on and so on.

If the property they acquired was originally taken by force, then they'd presumably be expected to return it to its owners or be branded thieves themselves.