So as an extension of the military obsessed players thread, let me pose to you the question of realism obsessed players and how much of a problem they are.
Do players who are frequently bringing up issues of realism bother you? In my case if it's valid and a good counter to "hollywood realism" then it's not a problem.
An example is the exploding car myth. For decades hollywood has convinced people that cars explode in crashes, when going off a cliff, when shot in the gas tank, etc.
It's pretty much established now that cars don't actually explode under most, if any, conditions. So I don't have a problem with a player saying a car shouldn't explode, just burn real good.
Likewise, bullets tend to be made of softer metals, and don't spark when deflecting off stone, metal, etc. I have no problem with people pointing out a bullet shouldn't spark off something.
Now when someone smugly has to tell me that a jump drive in traveller can't work because of relativity, and point that out every time you go to jump, I start getting pissed.
Rule 0: Don't play with assholes.
Quote from: Phantom Black;397821Rule 0: Don't play with assholes.
This.
Plus, I only want realism as it applies to what we're trying to do.
Since I never run hyper-gritty-realistic games, I see no reason to be super realistic when we play.
Does exposing holes in the plot count obessing over realism?
I really don't have a problem with bad science or dodgy history, but I have been known have had a few "Hey, wait a sec.." moments mid game to catch obvious flaws in the GM's plot. It's not something I am proud about, I GM enough to know that when thinking on your feet you can't always make the right call but drawing attnetion to it doesn't reallly help anyone.
Quote from: Phantom Black;397821Rule 0: Don't play with assholes.
Well, in all fairness I don't think it's right to call someone an asshole if they just point out a car shouldn't explode in most conditions.
If the gm NEEDS a car to explode, he can shoot it with a grenade.
As to people who constantly go on abbout FTL and artificial gravity being impossible, you may have a point.
In my experience, being overly concerned with realism is often just a smokescreen for trying to control the game. It becomes another form of rules lawyering, using the "rules" of the universe as we know it instead of the game rules. It's a means of asserting dominance.
Not always, mind you, but I'll just say I've never heard a player complain about how something is unrealistic when things are unrealistic in their favor.
Any game with an action movie theme, I'd expect Hollywood physics to apply. A game so "realistic" that I can't be an action hero... I wouldn't really want to play, personally. But those ground rules should be laid out up front, in detail and then accepted with good grace, not brought up piecemeal when a player wants to whine about a botched die roll or GM caveat.
/slightly bitter from experience
In all my games, the most common element in the universe is Explodium.
Cars burn? Lame. Cars are grenades with wheels!
What's next? Lasers that don't make sounds?
I think the real issue here is not "realism" but internal consistency, genre emulation, the nature of the faux reality in the game being played. It also deals with personal suspension of disbelief tolerance levels, which are connected almost linearly to how wise/ignorant you are about any given subject matter (guns, medieval weaponry, biology, etc).
The (sadly) common failure in gaming groups of making clear exactly what these things are in their particular game, specially when, more often than not, different people demand each in different quantities and qualities for their gaming satisfaction, is the root cause for much of the acrimony exposed here and in the "military obsession" thread.
Quote from: Edsan;397848I think the real issue here is not "realism" but internal consistency, genre emulation, the nature of the faux reality in the game being played. It also deals with personal suspension of disbelief tolerance levels, which are connected almost linearly to how wise/ignorant you are about any given subject matter (guns, medieval weaponry, biology, etc).
The (sadly) common failure in gaming groups of making clear exactly what these things are in their particular game, specially when, more often than not, different people demand each in different quantities and qualities for their gaming satisfaction, is the root cause for much of the acrimony exposed here and in the "military obsession" thread.
Damn good reply, I'd karma you if I could.
Goes to the heart of the matter: The Gm and players need to agree on the setting criteria and understand it.
Quote from: Spinachcat;397839In all my games, the most common element in the universe is Explodium.
Cars burn? Lame. Cars are grenades with wheels!
What's next? Lasers that don't make sounds?
What? no one ever demands a silence for his laser sniper rifle? What kind of jackoffs do you game with? ;)
Now that I know how silencers really work, every time I see them used on TV or in a game in a "stealth" scenario, I cringe a little. Same thing with the way movies use "hacking", the internet, and computers, since I'm a tech geek.
Depends entirely on how the game handles these elements, though. How many concessions have been made, how those concessions are incorporated into play, etc. If I don't like the way they're handled, I just don't play the game.
I certainly wouldn't take it out on the GM in a passive-aggressive manner, though, since I agreed to play the game in the first place.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;397822Since I never run hyper-gritty-realistic games, I see no reason to be super realistic when we play.
This.
I never run super realistic games, since I don't play any games with particularly realistic rules, and frankly don't know enough about gunfights/dismantling A-bombs/car chases to actually give them a true realistic feel.
Luckily I never had any of my players requesting more/complaining about the lack of realism.
Quote from: Cylonophile;397855What? no one ever demands a silence for his laser sniper rifle? What kind of jackoffs do you game with? ;)
I had a guy in a
Classic Traveller game demand to have a silencer for his shotgun. I told him it wouldn't work, then showed him the rules section where it pointed out the weapons which could be silenced. The Player bought a silencer anyways and had his PC weld it on to the barrel of his shotgun.
First time he used it, his barrel exploded.
And I was accused of trying to kill his character.
cie la vie
Quote from: Phantom Black;397821Rule 0: Don't play with assholes.
This should even be written in corebooks.
Quote from: jeff37923;397861I had a guy in a Classic Traveller game demand to have a silencer for his shotgun. I told him it wouldn't work, then showed him the rules section where it pointed out the weapons which could be silenced. The Player bought a silencer anyways and had his PC weld it on to the barrel of his shotgun.
First time he used it, his barrel exploded.
And I was accused of trying to kill his character.
cie la vie
Now that is a situation where the player clearly acted stupid. I'd maim that PC without giving it a second thought.
Quote from: Cylonophile;397835Well, in all fairness I don't think it's right to call someone an asshole if they just point out a car shouldn't explode in most conditions.
I don't either. What makes you an asshole is behaving like an asshole. The obsession word here is key. Obsession over anything is usually not healthy, period.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;397836In my experience, being overly concerned with realism is often just a smokescreen for trying to control the game. It becomes another form of rules lawyering, using the "rules" of the universe as we know it instead of the game rules. It's a means of asserting dominance.
Not always, mind you, but I'll just say I've never heard a player complain about how something is unrealistic when things are unrealistic in their favor.
Agreed. But not always. I confess I've always been a kind of rules lawyer. As a rules lawyer, my aim was having things right, and not trying to favor my character. In fact, sometimes I've brought out interpretation of rules that were detrimental to my character. But one thing is wanting to play by the rules, and another one is insisting and obsessing over some details, until the rest of your group is sick of you.
QuoteA game so "realistic" that I can't be an action hero... I wouldn't really want to play, personally.
But the thing is, real life is full of action heroes and badasses. So that hypothetical game wouldn't be so realistic as one could think.
Quote from: jeff37923;397861I had a guy in a Classic Traveller game demand to have a silencer for his shotgun. I told him it wouldn't work, then showed him the rules section where it pointed out the weapons which could be silenced. The Player bought a silencer anyways and had his PC weld it on to the barrel of his shotgun.
First time he used it, his barrel exploded.
And I was accused of trying to kill his character.
cie la vie
Hell, if he wanted a silent shotgun all he needed was a gauss shotgun, as long as it's firing subsonic rounds it ought to be near as dammit silent.
In the traVELLER ERA tho, I'd bet a lot of people carrier EM detectors that could pick up gauss fire.
BTW, I think it might be spelled "C'est la vie".
I'm pretty sure that you can buy silencers for shotguns. I think there was one in No Country for Old Men. You can also use them in the video game Modern Warfare 2.
As far as exploding cars, their real dangers are almost worse. I have a buddy who was putting out a car fire with his Lt. About 30 seconds after they had it out, the gas tank fell through the bottom, opened up, and instantly exploded in a pool of flame almost the street about 5' from where they were standing. Also, their are parts of a car, I'm not sure their names, that when super heated can fire off like bullets. They will shoot out strait ahead and strait to the sides, so it is important to approach a burning car from an angle.
My point is, a lot of the time a person's idea of realism has more to do with how much they know about whatever the topic is. Game masters, and gamers for that matter, are expected to know more about how shit works than Tom Clancy in some groups, and people act like you are stupid if you don't.
I agree with the sentiment that internal consistency is much more important than realism.
Quote from: Spinachcat;397839In all my games, the most common element in the universe is Explodium.
Cars burn? Lame. Cars are grenades with wheels!
What's next? Lasers that don't make sounds?
In my Science Fiction Universe, there is a race that has energy weapons you have to cock like a shotgun or bolt action rifle. After you cock them, they make a noise like a flash camera warming up. (:
Quote from: Edsan;397848I think the real issue here is not "realism" but internal consistency, genre emulation, the nature of the faux reality in the game being played. It also deals with personal suspension of disbelief tolerance levels, which are connected almost linearly to how wise/ignorant you are about any given subject matter (guns, medieval weaponry, biology, etc).
The (sadly) common failure in gaming groups of making clear exactly what these things are in their particular game, specially when, more often than not, different people demand each in different quantities and qualities for their gaming satisfaction, is the root cause for much of the acrimony exposed here and in the "military obsession" thread.
I mainly adhere to this.
I do run very gritty games. The term realistic comes up a lot, but since i view the rulest as a shared ruleset, the PCs genertally work towards fixing things with me. And we do get into it, with armor types and weapon damages, speeds and reaches. Speeds mounted and speed factor of a charging mounted lanceman, cranquin speed, etc...
but there is a big difference between working towards changing the ruleset vs questioning a GM adjudication. And I think it is because they are allowed to work on the rulest that I have not had an adjudication questioned in i don't know how long.
Quote from: Cylonophile;397874BTW, I think it might be spelled "C'est la vie".
Probably. At around 5am, my spell-check takes a nap.
Quote from: Cranewings;397882In my Science Fiction Universe, there is a race that has energy weapons you have to cock like a shotgun or bolt action rifle. After you cock them, they make a noise like a flash camera warming up. (:
And that's how the future fucking should be.
Let's face it, the future is cooler in fiction. And when I'm playing an RPG I want things to be cool.
If that means that lasers make noise, space fighters maneuver like WWII fighter planes, and you can hear explosions in space.... so be it.
.
Quote from: Cylonophile;397818Do players who are frequently bringing up issues of realism bother you?
Not at all. I simply respond,
"If you want realism, I am glad to give it to you. Has your character had a bowel movement today? Was it comfortable? Well let's look at what you had for dinner last night. Now encumbrance, it's not simply weight, it's also how it's distributed. Please write down on your equipment list exactly where you're storing each of those items, in which pocket, with notes in case you change your clothes. Speaking of which, you have changed your clothes haven't you? And washed? Or else you stink, and I'll have to apply a malus to social interactions. Also while we're looking at daily maintenance, have you practiced your skills? They degrade without practice, we'll have to roll for that. Also, a couple of weeks ago you were shot. Yes I know it's "healed up", but that's just in game terms, in reality there'd be a wound with stiches, those itch, maybe you pulled them out in the night and the wound is weeping, it could get infected, especially if you didn't wash.
"Now, what was that you were saying about the jump drive?"
I don't have a problem with realism at all. Some players think they'll enjoy realism, but then quickly understand they wouldn't. And so we get on with the GAME.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;397981Not at all. I simply respond,
"If you want realism, I am glad to give it to you. Has your character had a bowel movement today? Was it comfortable? Well let's look at what you had for dinner last night. Now encumbrance, it's not simply weight, it's also how it's distributed. Please write down on your equipment list exactly where you're storing each of those items, in which pocket, with notes in case you change your clothes. Speaking of which, you have changed your clothes haven't you? And washed? Or else you stink, and I'll have to apply a malus to social interactions. Also while we're looking at daily maintenance, have you practiced your skills? They degrade without practice, we'll have to roll for that. Also, a couple of weeks ago you were shot. Yes I know it's "healed up", but that's just in game terms, in reality there'd be a wound with stiches, those itch, maybe you pulled them out in the night and the wound is weeping, it could get infected, especially if you didn't wash.
"Now, what was that you were saying about the jump drive?"
I don't have a problem with realism at all. Some players think they'll enjoy realism, but then quickly understand they wouldn't. And so we get on with the GAME.
Heh heh heh, you asking about a BM reminded me of a time I was playing Rifts (yes, the Gm liked it) and I was a glitter boy on a long trek. FIRST MORNING OUT I got out of the armor to take a leak against a really wide tree for realism's sake, nothing more. I figured I was eating concetrrates so didnt have to do the other except every other day, but the GM gave me an XP just for "using a tree".
In the revised version of Deus Ex, the greatest computer RPG ever, you gat one XP for flushing a dirty toilet. "Public sanitation bonus award!"
I try to tell my players up front that the campaign is geared more towards cinematics than realism. I'm no science or engineering genius, and neither are my players who think they are, especially dealing with technology that doesn't even exist, so I don't deal with stupid squabblings of how this would work and that wouldn't. And it seriously aggravates me when the complaints start when whatever happened was in their favor.
Quote from: Cylonophile;398010Heh heh heh, you asking about a BM reminded me of a time I was playing Rifts (yes, the Gm liked it) and I was a glitter boy on a long trek. FIRST MORNING OUT I got out of the armor to take a leak against a really wide tree for realism's sake, nothing more. I figured I was eating concetrrates so didnt have to do the other except every other day, but the GM gave me an XP just for "using a tree".
In the revised version of Deus Ex, the greatest computer RPG ever, you gat one XP for flushing a dirty toilet. "Public sanitation bonus award!"
The vagabond is the only character that has soap on his eq list. It's important.
You can silence shotguns, but I don't know if it really counts as "silenced", you'd get maybe 5-10 decibel reduction. Also the silencer works differently, putting a regular silencer on a shotgun would probably blow up in your face.
Although if you're playing a "rule of cool" game then just look a No Country for Old Men, the guy used a silenced shotgun - there you go, all good. :cool: