It was Holmes Basic that let you scribe scrolls for 100gp (/level maybe?) and DMs who started with it, like myself, have often allowed it.  Really, the low level wizard as spell caddy isn't the worst thing.

I think the real criminal is lax time keeping.  If you aren't tracking how long it takes to inscribe a scroll, memorize a spell, copy a spell into your spell book and so on, then it seems like they're free.  Another thing is wizards who carry their spell book with them, should have them get soaked, burned, stolen, ripped, slashed, torn, drooled on, consumed by grey ooze and so forth.  Let them carry the book and let it get destroyed.  And when it costs a fortune to replace it, tell them that's why they're supposed to leave the things at home.

Travel spellbooks and memorization time used to be a thing, I remember. Not all "innovations" improve the game without serious consequences.

Quote from: Omega;860722A quick glance at OD&D shows no thief at all in the core 3 books.

As I said. Nice to know they haven't magically metamorphosed overnight.

QuoteThe dwarfs detect ability was limited to certain types of stone and earthworks. The thief shows up in Greyhawk and has its classic spread of thieving abilities.

No Find Traps, though, if memory serves, and special Removal talent only regarding such small things as those pesky poisoned needles in treasure-chest locks. Why? Because anyone can do things such as put a weight on something that might be a pressure plate.

QuoteAs for thieves being to bump demi-humans. I dont see any multi-classing aside from the elfs dual-classed ability. So the thief can not be a cover for the level limits as a demi-human PC still will have to choose a class.

You simply have not sufficiently read the text in Greyhawk; it is there nonetheless. Elves are not the only ones unlimited in levels as Thieves -- and they all get bonuses compared with Men.

D&D's magic systems and spells have always left me dissatisfied. Sure I've played my share of casters and had good times etc. But I'm in the "magic should be mysterious and dangerous" school.

The game that really scratched my itch this way was Talislanta 3e. You had your schools of magic, once you learned a school you had access to all their basic spells. When you wanted to cast a spell you decided what level the spell would be cast at (which mechanically was represented as a penalty on your roll based on the level) if you failed - it blew up in your face.

It was simple, powerful and streamlined. Some schools had utility - others, didn't. Depended on the school. So there was something for everyone. And if you wanted to go to crazy insane levels of power - you could with the advent of their Quantum Sorcery book (Never had a game get to that powerlevel).

D&D spells were always so flat and almost arbitrary.

Dangerous is dead simple. If you want to blow your own head off, go ahead and toss a die for it.

In TSR-era D&D, another MU can blow you away in a wink with Fire Ball or Lightning Bolt (or earlier with Magic Missile).

Mysterious and published don't go together, though.

Quote from: Phillip;860967Mysterious and published don't go together, though.

I think there are lots of ways to make RPG magic more mysterious despite the huge rulebook full of spells.
For one thing, just making them a bit less reliable and reproducible... I can cast a Light spell but there are a bunch of variables (time of day, solar activity, local magical energy levels... whatever) that I can't control/be aware of... so sometimes it doesn't work... sometimes it works better/worse than I might hope for. Sometimes weird side-effects happen. (in other words, add a degree of randomness to how spells work)
Another is making it bit harder to just grab whatever spell is listed in the rules. If a copy of the spell has to be found and transcribed then even something as basic as Light could involve a bit of research and adventuring to obtain (by purchase or theft). There might even be different versions of the spell that are easier/harder to cast or give different results. (make it so spells have to be acquired before use, none of that "Oh, I hit lvl3 so I spontaneously learn such and such!")
Finding a spell in some musty book might not be readily apparent what it is, the name might not be Light but 'Glorious Flare to Banish Darkness' or something far less obvious... even misleading. (make the names in acquired grimoires less standardized and obvious, require research to figure out what a spell does)

It's that same old thing of whether you tell the Players: "You see a dark shape with gleaming eyes and huge fangs" or tell them "5 squares in front of you is a black panther with HD of 5d8+10."
Of course, depending on the system, some of that means a bit of work beyond just pulling a spell as-is out of the magic chapter.

I prefer magic the way GURPS or Hero or even Runequest describes it. A character specializes in a particular type or college of magic and learns to do that stuff pretty well. But he'll have no idea of how to do other realms of magic. So, for example, a Water Mage learns how to create water, purify it, move it, make a wall of it, throw ice shards at people, etc. But he can't make a room light up or summon a demon or foretell the future. Although one can branch out to other colleges, if the GM allows, such study will normally be shallower.

I think this emulates real life better. We all tend to have one or two focuses that we try hard at and make money with. Then we have a number of side hobbies which we may be good at but don't try to push toward a full career. Then there are things we know nothing about. You can be a good lawyer, a decent history buff, fisherman and cook, but you don't know squat about plumbing and carpentry.

I don't care for fantasy where a wizard can do anything that pops into his mind just because the author needs him to. That's like saying a real person can do anything on the fly just because he's smart. No, the real world doesn't work that way. A smart person can have an idea on how something is done and can guess what might be involved, doesn't mean he can actually do it though.

Quote from: Phillip;860967Dangerous is dead simple. If you want to blow your own head off, go ahead and toss a die for it.

In TSR-era D&D, another MU can blow you away in a wink with Fire Ball or Lightning Bolt (or earlier with Magic Missile).

Mysterious and published don't go together, though.

By "mysterious" I mean the assumption of "D&D Fantasy" that magic is practically everywhere in play. Even though in Greyhawk and the Realms this was not as prevalent as many people assumed. It grew into that especially by 3.x where you had in-game "magic shops" (Red Wizards trading posts etc.)

Eberron at least had the good graces to have the proliferation of magic-is-everywhere as a conceit.

Darksun was at the other end of the spectrum - and that's where I like it.

I find that while I've been generally dissatisfied with the system, it IS very playable. I should probably underscore my *real* problem are the assumptions that have grown around "D&D Fantasy" as it's own genre. I think that's a big factor in the proliferation of Quadratic Mage which pretty much ruins 3.x/PF for me (unless I'm running my Mageocracy game).

So yeah - "mysterious" means that the general populace doesn't see it very much, and "dangerous" means that by delving into learning magic, you'll be powerful and able to do things no one else can do, but it's an Art and Science that can kill you. And I want the mechanics to reflect that. Not necessarily overtly, preferably by calculated player choice.

Edit: Yeah Doughdee, I'm with you on that. Talislanta is like that too.

Quote from: Sommerjon;860914That would be the difference, the thief needs to make a check which isn't guaranteed, the spell doesn't and is.

So they can easily cooperate, Sticky McFingerthumbs rolls and fails then Beardy McTwiddlethumbs can wiggle his eyebrows and make it happen.  What people finally figured out was why have Sticky McFingerthumbs even roll.

Except that the Sticky can pick locks and check traps all day. He might not be able to pick the same lock or trap twice. But he can pick every lock and trap the group comes across. Assuming they are playing BX and level 5 for example then in Beardy can open all of, drumroll please, two, yes count them, two locks. While Pius Intheskyus can detect all of drumroll please, two, yes count them, two traps. Which might not even be there. Dont you feel special now mister caster. Yes you do.

In 5e anyone can pick a lock or check for traps if they have the skills. It is no longer the purview of the Rogue.

Quote from: Omega;861010Except that the Sticky can pick locks and check traps all day. He might not be able to pick the same lock or trap twice. But he can pick every lock and trap the group comes across. Assuming they are playing BX and level 5 for example then in Beardy can open all of, drumroll please, two, yes count them, two locks. While Pius Intheskyus can detect all of drumroll please, two, yes count them, two traps. Which might not even be there. Dont you feel special now mister caster. Yes you do.

In 5e anyone can pick a lock or check for traps if they have the skills. It is no longer the purview of the Rogue.

Sure Thang, girlfriend.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;860930I seem to recall scrolls being purchasable in BX, although it might have been B or BECMI. I don't remember them being overly expensive, although with no (greater than potion/scroll) magic item purchasing, there wasn't much to do with gold until it was time to build a keep, so my perspective might have been skewed.

As to ExploderWizard's point--yes, 3rd edition had some serious issues with it, easy and assumed scroll purchasing being a big one. I think everyone still playing it or PF have pretty much put fixes in place by now if they feel the need.

In BX you could craft items. But the caster had to be name level (9th), had to get rare materials, and it cost lots of gold, and took weeks or months to actually craft.
Examples: A Scroll with 2 Magic Missiles on it costs 1000 gp and takes 2 weeks to craft. A 20 charge Fireball Wand costs 30000 and takes 4 months. 20 Arrows +1 was 10000 and a months time. Plate +1 was 10000 and 6 months, and so on.

You though could not normally just walk into any town and hit up a magic item shop. They did not exist then. There might be suppliers selling the occasional rare item of magic or potions. But that was often about it till later,

Quote from: Sommerjon;861013Sure Thang, girlfriend.

The group once wanted me to stock up on knock spells. I pointed out I only had at the time 2 slots for that and the fighters in the group could just bash every door down given time if the thief failed.

Sometimes the non-casters in a group get the impression the casters in the group have unlimited ammo.

Quote from: tenbones;860978So yeah - "mysterious" means that the general populace doesn't see it very much, and "dangerous" means that by delving into learning magic, you'll be powerful and able to do things no one else can do, but it's an Art and Science that can kill you. And I want the mechanics to reflect that. Not necessarily overtly, preferably by calculated player choice.

Edit: Yeah Doughdee, I'm with you on that. Talislanta is like that too.

One thing I miss, and yet dont miss, in D&D was the sort of wild west gunslinger aspect to wizards. The better you got, the more likely some young upstart was to come along and challenge you in the hopes of either being as good as they think they are. Or getting lucky. Those spellbooks were worth major fortunes if you can pry them from the hands of someone else. Especially in any setting where new spells past your starters were only gained by scrolls and spellbooks.

Quote from: Phillip;860967Dangerous is dead simple. If you want to blow your own head off, go ahead and toss a die for it.

In TSR-era D&D, another MU can blow you away in a wink with Fire Ball or Lightning Bolt (or earlier with Magic Missile).

"Another MU can blow you away" is magic being dangerous to its target, which is not at all the same thing as magic being dangerous to the caster.  (Granted, depending on your group/DM, TSR-era D&D had the possibility of an MU killing himself with a fireball cast in an enclosed area expanding to engulf the caster or a lightning bolt rebounding on him, but those are special cases, not magic in general being dangerous to the caster.  There was no chance that you might try to cast a Knock spell and instead produce some other effect, whether good or ill.)

My view of the alternatives to D&D style magic.

GURPS - GURPS magic is the same spirit as D&D magic except more diverse and flexible. The big difference is that there are few earth shattering "I win in mass combat" spell. A GURPs Mage is very deadly one on one and in small scale combat but lacks the punch to do much in a mass melee.

Runequest - The battle magic was pretty vanilla but access to Rune Magic had a lot of flavor. Again like GURPS didn't have a lot of earth shattering spells but made a mage more effective in small scale combat. The flavor of Rune Magic gets watered down in later addition as the game becomes more oriented to generic fantasy

Ars Magica - Magic is full of flavor and detail. Lost of stuff to play with as a mage and has a lot of atmosphere. Probably too much for a group who want to play generic fantasy but gold for a group focused on playing mages. The only downfall is that the core books has a system for creating spells but nowhere near the number of actual spells as above systems and D&D. Requires a bit discipline and restraint to get the most out of it..

GURPS Voodoo/Ritual Paths/etc - an alternative system that is way less flashy than GURPS Magic and has a lot of atmosphere. The downfall is the same as Ars Magic in that the core rules has a system for creating spells but nowhere near the number of actual spells as above systems and D&D. Also requires a bit discipline and restraint to get the most out of it.

Dungeon Crawl Classic RPG - Where Ars Magica nails living in a world of magic, DCC RPG is the only one of the bunch to nail that magic is dark, dangerous and mysterious However the cost of achieving this is lots of tables and charts. But man what tables and what charts!

I feel that the DCC RPG is the only RPG to successfully make magic dark and mysterious through mechanics. Every other system require a disciplined referee to set the tone.