Ron Edwards Interview:
http://theoryfromthecloset.com/2007/05/14/show008-interview-with-ron-edwards/

Daren saying a lack of understanding of the symbolism behind monsters in D&D has "Damaged Roleplaying"

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?referrerid=&t=328794&highlight=symbolism

Nearly all of Luke Crane's interaction with gamers online should demonstrate swinish behaviour well enough.

Y'know, I'm real tempted to do my usual "Take a negative thread and make a new thread examining the positive converse" thing here ... but, amusingly enough, I think that it would immediately be labelled as Swinish behavior.

Like, if I started a thread linking to the useful, non-pretentious arguments that people have had about theory and the like, would that be Swinish proselytizing?  It's so hard to tell what will trigger people's Swine-detectors.

In regards to the lack of recent broadsides from the Forge, walker, it's a bit like walking past a mass grave and looking for the battle that made it to still to be on. Things were much more bitter and nasty from about 2002 on to the early part of 2006 (IIRC) when the Forge closed down its theory forum.

Things have calmed down a bit now, especially since the RPG.net mods got sick of the theory debates and started threatening and even occasionally using bans if you picked an argument about theory with its advocates (JimBob was permabanned for this, amongst other things, and I was threatened with a ban by Curt for doing it).

So, things are calmer now, with the exception of Pundit's rants. Every so often there's a new outrage, but it boils over and dies down without causing the shitstorms they used to, and mostly the bad blood just simmers between the Forge types and the anti-theory crowd.

Quote3. Luke Crane's rhetoric where he used absolutes instead of using words like "tends to" and "some of" and "may".

Thats forgespeak, a form of communication in which it is impossible to say anything without implying someone is doing it wrong.

One of the worst examples was Joshua 'Hi, I'm Joshua Ay See Newman' Newman turning up on RPG.net to tell everyone that their games sucked and it was imperitive that the listen to his Shock wank, (a game which the act of selling which was described by Ron Edwards himself as stealing from gamers).

Were they able to talk about it in a fasion that didn't put peoples back up with a load of rhetoric things would be a lot easier.

The very Indie/Trad split is swinish. Its a bloody stupid distinction. Gamers have always debated things endlessy online. GMS's Honk Kong Action Theater is a Forge game before forge games existed, but at the time I thought it was a game. Robin Laws has provided more cool ideas than the forge.

Essentially, anyone who thinks they are special and tells you so is probably a swine.

True class speaks for itself.

Quote from: TonyLBY'know, I'm real tempted to do my usual "Take a negative thread and make a new thread examining the positive converse" thing here ... but, amusingly enough, I think that it would immediately be labelled as Swinish behavior.

Like, if I started a thread linking to the useful, non-pretentious arguments that people have had about theory and the like, would that be Swinish proselytizing?  It's so hard to tell what will trigger people's Swine-detectors.

It's a fair enough thing to do. However, i think you should realise that you and the OP are pretty much on the same page (i think).

Quote from: walkerpThere has been lots of fighting back and forth on trad vs. indie issues, but I don't see that as swinish, but people with differing views arguing about stuff. I have to say that in many of the recent arguments, the pro-trad side seems awfully defensive and up in arms. Now, I have only been around for about two years (and really on the last year where I became aware of this whole conflict) and the mains source for these conflicts is rpg.net, so I may have a very limited perspective.

I think that may have something to do with it walkerp.  You haven't been on or participated in a forum enough for somebody to piss in your own personal bowl of corn flakes.  Any off the cuff remark like, "I'm not a fan of x and anybody that thinks it's better than y is crazy", drums up some old flame war someone has had in the past.  It's frustrating to get a handle on because much of it is just people setting stakes on their bowl of corn flakes and daring all comers to take a bite.

Quote from: Erik BoielleTrue class speaks for itself.

Or at least doesn't spend so long making itself feel big by slagging off other people.

Damit, anyone who accepts the Trad/Indie split is a stupid cunt.

You are sheep! Its sole function is to make a bunch a vanity publishing pillocks on their little forum think they arn't really sitting in their basements pretending to be wizzards.

Thanks everyone.  Your responses are very helpful.  It does seem that there is a lot of historical baggage here.  It's tough to go back on things people wrote 5 years ago and point them out as good examples, because there has been so much rhetoric laid on top of it (and probably in some cases, backpedaling) it's hard to get the sense of the impact it caused in the beginning.  

I really like the idea that the trad/indie split is bullshit.

I would ask of you who were present when all the fun was going down to try not to jump to conclusions and try not get offended.  It tends to limit discussion.

One thing about the Forge that definitely does rub me minorly in the wrong way is their "tough" style of talking.  I notice it when there are panels with a lot of indie designers on it and I noticed it when dealing with a Forge person at a pseudo-business level.  I appreciate that they are trying to be professional when it comes to marketing their games, but they've conflated direct business action with cutting, critical academic talk and they come off as forceful assholes who have no real experience.  When one listens to Ron Edwards, one might suspect there is some demagoguery going on there.  He talks like that.  The say things like "I am going to put this on the table" and "Here is what I am going to throw at you."  And they are very *clear* on what they *do* and do *not* want.

It's just irrelevant. Maybe I've got you wrong, but there is a consistent pattern of people demanding "proof". They're never satisfied no matter how much evidence is offered. There was even some nasty business on rpg.net a while back, when certain posters tried to bait others into mentioning "Brain Damage" as proof, at a time that bringing it up was a bannable offense.

But I'm sorry, I'm not going to provide examples or links. You'll have to do your own research. I do occasionally point to dumb things people have said, but I'm just not in the mood right now. The problem, you see, is that if I point to one statement, it isn't going to convince you that there's a problem, but it will alienate that person and probably a few others--simply because I'm trashing their buddy.

(Cross-posted with a bunch of posts up above...)

Quote from: Elliot WilenMaybe I've got you wrong, but there is a consistent pattern of people demanding "proof". They're never satisfied no matter how much evidence is offered.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/blissninny.htm

Actually, a lot of it is that you often can't see your own biases. If your culture has lead you to think all ethnic minorities are stupid you don't see someone talking about protecting the lesser races from themselves as being rude, but it'll merrily get you shanked if you comment on it in the wrong place.

The forge basically developed a nasty form of groupthink in their insular community, and then wondered back in to the real world and got shanked.

Quote from: Erik BoielleActually, a lot of it is that you often can't see your own biases. If your culture has lead you to think all ethnic minorities are stupid you don't see someone talking about protecting the lesser races from themselves as being rude, but it'll merrily get you shanked if you comment on it in the wrong place.

:mad: What!  Are you saying I'm a racist?  And you say the Forgeites are swine?  This is absolutely ridiculous.  :mad:













Ha ha. Just kidding.

Quote from: walkerpOne thing about the Forge that definitely does rub me minorly in the wrong way is their "tough" style of talking.  I notice it when there are panels with a lot of indie designers on it and I noticed it when dealing with a Forge person at a pseudo-business level.  I appreciate that they are trying to be professional when it comes to marketing their games, but they've conflated direct business action with cutting, critical academic talk and they come off as forceful assholes who have no real experience.  When one listens to Ron Edwards, one might suspect there is some demagoguery going on there.  He talks like that.  The say things like "I am going to put this on the table" and "Here is what I am going to throw at you."  And they are very *clear* on what they *do* and do *not* want.

And then they get upset if you do it back.

:-)

That is most of the effect why Indie Gamer is bascially synonymous with Pretentious Blowhard though - to like their stuff you have to like Pretentious Blowhardery, which likly means you are a Pretentious Blowhard yourself.

Its such a shame the interesting bits about not spending your lifes savings on printing books got mixed in with a bunch of crap. That shit could be useful to the whole community.

But OH NO! thats only good for straight talking freedom fighters taking on the might of the faceless masses and their DnD!

Stupid self serving fucks.

Elephant in the room! We play vs. Everyone Plays!  Story Games not stupid DnD crap! Stupid unenlightened Trad Gamers! Rah! Rah! Rah!

Quote from: Erik BoielleElephant in the room! We play vs. Everyone Plays!  Story Games not stupid DnD crap! Stupid unenlightened Trad Gamers! Rah! Rah! Rah!

You appear to be whipping yourself into a frenzy.

Is that fun?