Quote from: WalkerpAnd for the record, when I say "indie" I am referring to self-published games, but even that can get kind of fuzzy.  It doesn't have to necessarily have anything to do with the Forge.  I consider Greg Stolze to be an indie designer (and am psyched for Reign).  I guess I'd consider 1PG games to be basically indie.  I mean, hell, these people are producing games.  That's a good thing.

We had a huge debate about the meaning and peramaters of the word "Indie" ages (okay, a couple months) ago. Since then, the word has more or less not popped up at all on this site. Perhaps because it can either be used with hidden positive (i.e. indie=hip) or hidden negative (i.e. indie=goddamn idie posers) connotations. Or because you wonder just how small press it has to be, or how old and established a thing can still be called "indie," even if it is small press.

A more accurate and less debatable word would be small press. When you get up to DnD's biggest runners-up, the line might be blurred... but no one will argue it because the delineation isn't "us" and "them." Isn't "old school" and "indie," anyway.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe response to my post was almost unanimous. The theorists (Levi and TonyLB amongst them, but many others as well) acknowledged that my argument was legitimate, true and well-argued. But they then said that they would continue to use the term anyhow. They were used to it, and used it as a "shorthand" for all that other stuff.

That's intellectually dishonest. It's not the only example I've seen, but it's one I'm most personally familiar with.

GOAL!

This and the pretentiousness comment have made my opinion of you skyrocket, dude.

Quote from: beejazzA more accurate and less debatable word would be small press. When you get up to DnD's biggest runners-up, the line might be blurred... but no one will argue it because the delineation isn't "us" and "them." Isn't "old school" and "indie," anyway.

Tell me about it. I've been consciously avoiding using the term "indie" simply because there's a lucidrous amount of baggage attached to it. Witness the excruciating twisting and turning on the Forge over whether or not Hero Wars/Heroquest is/was "indie".

I find the term Indie as defined on the Forge to be useless.  The contortions Edwards goes through to grandfather Runequest/Glorantha undermines the whole enterprise.  And S. John Ross, one of the best designers out there whose work fits the Forge definition, avoids the term like the plague apparently to avoid being lumped in with those guys.  Ross isn't the only guy out there who does that, either.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe theorists (Levi and TonyLB amongst them, but many others as well) acknowledged that my argument was legitimate, true and well-argued. But they then said that they would continue to use the term anyhow. They were used to it, and used it as a "shorthand" for all that other stuff.

Huh?   But....  I don't use the term "social contract" anymore.

Can you link to the thread?

My apologies. In the thread (series of thread) I was thinking of, you'd already abandoned it, now that I check (the threads are from November 2006). A bunch of other dumb goons hadn't (CKubasik, TonyLB, Ian Noble, amongst others), but credit where credit is due.

I was thinking of your various social contract threads from December 2005, when you were still using the term. Your name also gets thrown around a bit in the November 2006 threads I'm talking about, which is probably where my memory went astray and compressed the time between them. Once again, it was my error. Sorry.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineOnce again, it was my error. Sorry.

Not to worry.  

Around that time, I spent a fuckton of time debating terms and semantics, so I shouldn't have been stunned.

I see both sides of this argument as being hyper sensitive to criticism of a system as a personal affront to their roleplaying.  As soon as something is posted it dredges up some old personal battle where they felt affronted.  These posters read into each others posts to find some hidden agenda.  You hear the same tired responses over and over again.  The sad thing is, that both sides come out sounding like idiots and each side has enough supporters to validate their points of view.  

The only games that can be talked about without bickering are the ones that don't lie on either side of these individually drawn battle lines which sucks because some of us would like to talke about those games.

Quote from: jrientsI find the term Indie as defined on the Forge to be useless.  The contortions Edwards goes through to grandfather Runequest/Glorantha undermines the whole enterprise.

Minor correction: Ron Edwards, as far as I am aware, was arguing against Glorantha (in the form of Heroquest) being discussed on the Forge because Robin Laws wrote the system, not Greg Stafford, or something like that.

Nope. It's not "officially" indie any more, but that's a recent development.

And even RE slips up from time to time, saying "indie"/"independent" when he clearly means an aesthetic as opposed to a production/publishing model. As e.g. here.

Some people try to fight this but I think the struggle to define "indie" has been lost to normal forces of popular usage. In places where it matters (e.g. the indie rpg awards), the term should be changed to fit usage.

How we could all spare us these shitstorms if the sensible divide between Adventure RPGs and Thematic RPGs would be used?
*sigh*

Nope.

Regards,
David R

... And all the religious conflicts could all be resolved if everyone just became an Episcopalian.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: J Arcane... And all the religious conflicts could all be resolved if everyone just became an Episcopalian.

:rolleyes:

If gaming is equivalent to religion then we're all fucked.

When it comes to game theory, "swinish" behaviour, and what not, I treat it as pure entertainment. If it makes me laugh (and most of it does, seeing as we are talking about games), then I win. If it's just boring drivel, then I click my mouse button (because game theory has never been discussed at my game table) and move on.

As far as games go, I personally could give a rat's tiny arse about GNS theory or the definition of "swinish" behaviour. What interests me more are the fierce and entertaining debates over these things.

And, I think many people read threads like this to have a healthy and hearty chuckle at the expense of the poor bugger who takes all this seriously. The proof is in the pudding. If you weren't entertained in some way by this stuff, you wouldn't even read it, let alone post a reply.