I asked for this elsewhere and did not get a satisfactory answer.  Could those of you who have experienced straight-out aggressive prosletyzing or profound attacks against your playstyle and the condescension that goes with it please post some actual links so I can see it.

Because I have just never seen it.

And I am not talking about someone criticizing a system or saying they don't like a system.  I mean threads like that creepy one in rpg.net where people were asking what was wrong with PBP and this guy came in and started going on about how it didn't allow players to tell a story in a very brainwashed kind of way.

Blog posts are acceptable as well.

Pundit is the one you want to talk to.

I don't share all of his ideas but I'll take a stab at this:

Examples:
Anything that smacks of "my game is intellectually superior to yours"

The idea that "role-play" is inherently superior to "roll-play"

Treating gaming like an academic field, and demanding that others change the way they play the game to accommodate some lofty intellectual ideal:
http://zdashamber.livejournal.com/93053.html

Virtually anything said about gaming by Ron Edwards.

Darrin's criticism of monsters must be used symbolically in RPGs to be used "correctly" on rpg.net.

The concept of forge playstyles and "storyism" being superior to "simulationism" "gamism" and "immersion" and games that dont cater to a specific one of these artificially constructed playstyles as being "incoherent" and inferior to games that do.

Sorry I don't have a link, but if you can track down the original brain damage comment from Ron Edwards, from what I can tell that was one of the biggest opening salvoes in the "war." He basically said that playing the wrong sort of games broke your brain.

I've read the Brain Damage essay, skimmed the GNS essays and heard plenty of interviews with the Forge-ites and people on the fringes.  

I should have been clearer in my OP.  I'm not looking for the origins of this debate, but current examples of this kind of thinking recently.  I'm not trying to set up an argument here or anything.  I do think there are some Forge-ites who go way too far and are quite happy with themselves in an embarrassing "I am taking sophomore poli-sci and just learned about Adorno Hockheimer" way.  But I really haven't seen any evidence of the kind of attacks a lot of people seem to be the victims of around here and at the rpg.net.  

I get that part of Pundit's conspiracy theory is that they disguise it.  But I mean he mentions that his brother has been "harrassed" several times.  I just want to see some examples of this.

Let me go follow the link you did post.

Quote from: ConanMKTreating gaming like an academic field, and demanding that others change the way they play the game to accommodate some lofty intellectual ideal:
http://zdashamber.livejournal.com/93053.html

Huh?  That's just a woman making suggestions for how cons and forums could be more welcoming to women.  There is plenty to argue about in what she says, for sure.  But I don't see anyone demanding others change the way they play or trying to accommodate some lofty intellectual ideal.  Is "swinish" just a code for "Politically Correct"?

Quote from: walkerpHuh?  That's just a woman making suggestions for how cons and forums could be more welcoming to women.  There is plenty to argue about in what she says, for sure.  But I don't see anyone demanding others change the way they play or trying to accommodate some lofty intellectual ideal.  Is "swinish" just a code for "Politically Correct"?

According to Pundit it is a prime example of Swinery as he states here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6323

Again, I don't share his views. He coined the term "Swine" so I gave examples of what he seems to consider "swinish behavior." I would give my own examples, but I don't really believe the "swine" are a coherent united group of gamers that can be grouped under a single label like that. Thus I have no examples of my own to give.

Quote from: walkerpIs "swinish" just a code for "Politically Correct"?

No, but they're equally vacuous terms whose main purpose is to present the other side as bad prior to any sort of engagement.

Somehow the webcomic Shortpacked sums up my interpretation of how a swine behaves perfectly:



In the end it's about your attitude toward your fellow gamers likes and dislikes and as a result, we all may have been swiney at one time or another. In fact, I don't even have an urge to read the Pistols thread now.

Did you take part in the Anti-Gm bias BW thread over at RPGnet Walkerp? I guess some of that would qualify under Pundits criteria.

I did participate in that thread.  It might be that I am biased myself, because while I certainly saw a lot of people taking offense (on both sides), the only real sweeping attack at a playstyle there was by Luke Crane himself, and I just didn't see what he was saying as being anything beyond a theoretical position.  His language was strong.  But beyond that, all the other people supporting him were to a fault saying that while they agreed with Luke's strategy towards gaming (equal rules for GM and Players), they also agreed the traditional way (GM has rule zero) could work for other groups.

And Luke has written two very good games that are being played by tons of people.  He makes all his efforts towards promoting his game.  He came on that thread in defense of his game.  I still don't see the attacks.

Folks, you will not convince walkerp. Any evidence you offer will either be too old, or in need of "interpretation", or otherwise considered an outlier.

Don't waste your time.

Walkerp, if you don't care for the anti-Forge attitudes on this site, I suggest you work around them by discussing actual games and gaming. If you don't engage in condescending behavior, projecting dysfunction and brain damage, claims that "traditional" games always entail hidden or overt railroading, "expert diagnoses" of denial and the like, you'll do fine.

Quote from: walkerpAnd Luke has written two very good games that are being played by tons of people.

For certain values of 'tons of people'.  The man has a following and is clearly doing some things right, but let's not overstate it.

Quote from: jrientsFor certain values of 'tons of people'.  The man has a following and is clearly doing some things right, but let's not overstate it.

Fair enough.

My point is that he seems to direct his energies in a positive fashion towards promoting his game rather than in a negative fashion and in attacking other people's games or playstyles.

Quote from: walkerpFair enough.

My point is that he seems to direct his energies in a positive fashion towards promoting his game rather than in a negative fashion and in attacking other people's games or playstyles.

I dunno.  I started a thread here a while back calling the man a dick and a prima donna and he seemed to have plenty of energy to spend negatively.  I was out of line starting that thread, but he seemed to do everything in his power to throw fuel on the fire.

Quote from: Elliot WilenFolks, you will not convince walkerp. Any evidence you offer will either be too old, or in need of "interpretation", or otherwise considered an outlier.

Don't waste your time.

You are totally off-base.  This is exactly the kind of assumptions that get me so pissed off.  I said before I am not here to prove that this swinish behaviour doesn't actually exist.  I have seen it, but very very rarely.  You say "any evidence", where is this evidence?  I want quotes.  I want links.  I have been given one link that was more about feminism than gaming styles.  

Quote from: Elliot WilenWalkerp, if you don't care for the anti-Forge attitudes on this site, I suggest you work around them by discussing actual games and gaming. If you don't engage in condescending behavior, projecting dysfunction and brain damage, claims that "traditional" games always entail hidden or overt railroading, "expert diagnoses" of denial and the like, you'll do fine.

I am very clear on what this swinish behaviour is supposed to be (actually your summary there is quite nice).  I want to see some examples of it.  

That's all I'm asking.  

For the record, I am not against the anti-Forge attitudes here.  It's just that they don't seem very well-founded.  At this current stage in my gaming, I consider myself a fan of the traditional GM-Player structure.  I like my systems simple and fast.  My two favorite systems are Savage Worlds and Spirit of the Century.  I listen to a ton of podcasts and a lot of designers and players who ally themselves with the Forge have had some very helpful and useful things to say.  I've played Dogs in the Vineyard and it was okay.  I really want to play Burning Empires.  I am playing in a UA campaign that kicks ass.  I don't want to play in games where my own personality is psychoanalyzed or challenging issues of power and gender are struggled with.  I want to play games where cool shit happens and I get to kick ass, in cool, original and challenging ways.  I attempt to run games like that as well.

Sorry to go on a big ego blast about myself, but I just want to make it as clear as possible that I do not have some secret pro-Forge agenda.  Am I really so bad at expressing myself?  I feel like my question was very straightforward.  I don't know how else to say it.

For the record, here are the things that I have seen that seemed "swinish"

1.  That weird culty guy on rpg.net (Signature?) who jumped into a thread about what was wrong with BRP and started blathering GNS 101 all over the place.

2.  A blog where some Forgey hanger-on compared what they were doing to the modernist writers in Paris in the 50s or something just as outrageous.  That didn't offend me but it was really embarrassing.

3. Luke Crane's rhetoric where he used absolutes instead of using words like "tends to" and "some of" and "may".

There has been lots of fighting back and forth on trad vs. indie issues, but I don't see that as swinish, but people with differing views arguing about stuff.  I have to say that in many of the recent arguments, the pro-trad side seems awfully defensive and up in arms.  Now, I have only been around for about two years (and really on the last year where I became aware of this whole conflict) and the mains source for these conflicts is rpg.net, so I may have a very limited perspective.  But this is why I am asking for evidence.