I have long since pointed out that one of the least "realistic" books on magick for RPGs was the late Isaac Bonewitz's "Authentic Thaumaturgy", that was full of propandist nonsense and new-age claptrap, and in no way reflected what people actually did with magick in the real world.
On the other hand, I would always tell people that the most "authentic" RPG magick system I ever saw was Unknown Armies: where to become a real magician you had to either become utterly obsessed and disconnected from regular people and normal life to pursue a source of power only you could really see, or you had to come to embody an archetypal force and thus gradually lose what most people normally think of as your humanity. In other words, magick fucks you up big time and usually for very little tangible or visible reward or respect (except maybe among your "own kind").
I would now add to the list of "authentic" RPG magick systems another, very surprising choice: Chav: the Knifing, by our own Ian Warner, which I just reviewed yesterday (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=445196#post445196). In it, magick is described as "an arcane art halfway between mad science and bullshit". The most basic and possibly most significant power of voodoo is "the ability to bullshit people and make them believe" in what you're doing. A successful check for spinning bullshit can give penalties or bonuses to another character as a purely psychosomatic effect.
So it approaches the subject from a different angle than UA. In Unknown Armies, you start by looking at the hardcore obsessives, and take it for granted that (like in our real world) 98% of people who "do magic" are (usually self-decieving) frauds.
In Chav, you start from the basis that you too are one of those frauds, and that most of magick is just about making psychosomatic effects for yourself and others, which is absolutely true. Many of the "spells" in that game are also done in such a way that its very much ambiguous as to whether what happened was actually a "spell" or a "skill"; ie. did some real supernatural effect occur, or is the effect really just the magician being good at being a magician?
That, gentlemen, is authentic thaumaturgy. At least, the way 98% of the would-be magical population practices it.
RPGpundit
So you're saying people should stop using fake made-up mysticism and instead use real made-up mysticism?
That IS the question, of course. Can we have a book about Authentic Thaumaturgy that doesn't include new age claptrap or work from the assumption that we're not actually going to get magic in "Authentic"... because real 'authentic' mages were all con artists and self deluded fools?
Seriously: Where's my 'Its a fucking made up world where magic is real' authentic thaumaturgy book?
Glad you like the Shadow World Magic(k) system. It started with Grim's mocking of the Tremere back in D20 BtA and kind of evolved from there.
The plan at the moment is every line uses that except Wizkid which uses a more "actual magic" semi freeform thing based on Buffing, Nerfing, Creating and Destroying and Scout where spell casting PCs are just inappropriate.
The best depiction of magic I've seen in a movie is in City of God, where Lil Ze gets that magic necklace from the voodoun and given a geas that he can never fuck. And of course, he rapes Knockout Ned's sister and dies at the end of the film. It's a great fridge logic moment.
Quote from: Theodore Sign;445328So you're saying people should stop using fake made-up mysticism and instead use real made-up mysticism?
IF the point of your game is to be "authentic" in a modern setting, yes.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;445345The best depiction of magic I've seen in a movie is in City of God, where Lil Ze gets that magic necklace from the voodoun and given a geas that he can never fuck. And of course, he rapes Knockout Ned's sister and dies at the end of the film. It's a great fridge logic moment.
What the guy was doing there was a depiction, and a pretty accurate one, of Kimbanda, the "darker" Afro-Caribbean religion of brazil (as opposed to Umbanda and a few others which is seen as more "white magic"). And indeed, it is hugely popular with gangsters.
RPGPundit
Get one of these (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18492/black-magic-ritual-kit).
You could use any one of a range of 'current' tradditions from Wiccan to African Azande tribal magic to some sort of Golden Dawn stuff.
Personally I would just pinch the magic out of HellBlazer or The Invisibles (and I have a very nice Anthropology degree that actually specialises in Magic and ritual in non-literate societies, but I am just lazy).
Like Pundit says, and like Constantine does so well 95% of magic should be flim flam and slight of hand with a bit of neo-paganism, voodoo and astological mumbo jumbo thrown in.
When it comes to magic in RPGs, I read "authentic" as, "works like credulous observers who who believe in this kind of magic believe it works," and not "(fails to) work like it (fails to) work in reality.
Quote from: two_fishes;445407When it comes to magic in RPGs, I read "authentic" as, "works like credulous observers who who believe in this kind of magic believe it works," and not "(fails to) work like it (fails to) work in reality.
Those two positions are not incompatible. Plenty of people will tell you all about how this psychic they visited "foretold" the future successfully despite the psychic merely applying cold reading and some self-help gabble. And heck, sometimes the psychic's flim-flam, because of the belief of the person involved that it's what will happen, does actually come true.
Quote from: jibbajibba;445404You could use any one of a range of 'current' tradditions from Wiccan to African Azande tribal magic to some sort of Golden Dawn stuff.
Personally I would just pinch the magic out of HellBlazer or The Invisibles (and I have a very nice Anthropology degree that actually specialises in Magic and ritual in non-literate societies, but I am just lazy).
Like Pundit says, and like Constantine does so well 95% of magic should be flim flam and slight of hand with a bit of neo-paganism, voodoo and astological mumbo jumbo thrown in.
I'll tell you something else, 15 out of every 20 wiccans or "magicians" (or should that be magickians?) I have met have never actually even attempted to "cast a spell" in their lives. Their efforts amount to sometimes just calling themselves wiccans or magicians, in some cases owning one or more books, in fewer cases actually having read at least one (but not practicing anything at all from it), and maybe owning a tarot deck.
Of the other 5, 4 out of 5 have only ever done the most absolute basic practice (ie. the "lesser banishing ritual" or "casting a circle") and infrequently.
That leaves about 5% of the total "occult" population who have actually done something. And in general, there is a pretty steep curve with those guys where it begins with doing some spells here and there or dabbling in the goetia, and then very quickly go into seriously fucked up "unknown armies" territories.
An incredible amount of it is all about "rep" in the community, and the number of "wars" I've seen in local communities is just ridiculous. Put 5 occultists together in a room and within an hour they'll have formed a group, within two hours they'll have split into two groups, and after a bit they'll be 3 groups, and then none.
A lot of it is massive complexes and egos; Israel Regardie once said "wicca is the only religion I know of where you can find two grown men beating each other up over who gets to be called 'Lord Merlin'". He forgot to mention that his own branch of ceremonial magick, the "golden dawn" has had so many schisms and massive conflicts over "legitimacy", "magickal authority", who has got the approval of the "secret chiefs", etc. that essentially there is no way (besides random preference) to judge who is the "real" Golden Dawn. Sadly a great deal of this infighting often happens among the 15 out of 20 people who do no magickal practice whatsoever (besides reading).
Those are the kinds of things you have to portray if you are going to show real "authentic" thaumaturgy in a modern game.
RPGPundit
RPGPundit
Quote from: two_fishes;445407When it comes to magic in RPGs, I read "authentic" as, "works like credulous observers who who believe in this kind of magic believe it works," and not "(fails to) work like it (fails to) work in reality.
The thing is, magick doesn't "fail to work". It does very specific things in reality. One of them is the psychosomatic effect. But there are other more powerful things beyond that.
The point is that the way to be "authentic" about it is not to say "here's the propaganda party line about how this ought to work, and we're going to pretend that's how it does even though everyone knows that's not true". The way to be authentic is to show things as they really are, and how magick is a parasite-infested cesspool that sucks you in where only the very careful or the very crazy can get more out of it than what it costs them (to their wallets, their sanity, and their connection to society).
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;445497I'll tell you something else, 15 out of every 20 wiccans or "magicians" (or should that be magickians?) I have met have never actually even attempted to "cast a spell" in their lives. Their efforts amount to sometimes just calling themselves wiccans or magicians, in some cases owning one or more books, in fewer cases actually having read at least one (but not practicing anything at all from it), and maybe owning a tarot deck.
Of the other 5, 4 out of 5 have only ever done the most absolute basic practice (ie. the "lesser banishing ritual" or "casting a circle") and infrequently.
That leaves about 5% of the total "occult" population who have actually done something. And in general, there is a pretty steep curve with those guys where it begins with doing some spells here and there or dabbling in the goetia, and then very quickly go into seriously fucked up "unknown armies" territories.
An incredible amount of it is all about "rep" in the community, and the number of "wars" I've seen in local communities is just ridiculous. Put 5 occultists together in a room and within an hour they'll have formed a group, within two hours they'll have split into two groups, and after a bit they'll be 3 groups, and then none.
A lot of it is massive complexes and egos; Israel Regardie once said "wicca is the only religion I know of where you can find two grown men beating each other up over who gets to be called 'Lord Merlin'". He forgot to mention that his own branch of ceremonial magick, the "golden dawn" has had so many schisms and massive conflicts over "legitimacy", "magickal authority", who has got the approval of the "secret chiefs", etc. that essentially there is no way (besides random preference) to judge who is the "real" Golden Dawn. Sadly a great deal of this infighting often happens among the 15 out of 20 people who do no magickal practice whatsoever (besides reading).
Those are the kinds of things you have to portray if you are going to show real "authentic" thaumaturgy in a modern game.
RPGPundit
RPGPundit
I've seen similar things amongst individuals who self-identify as satanists.
It's not much different than the sort of arguments and/or infighting amongst hardcore individuals in all kinds of different fandom.
Some people really dig drama, it makes them feel important. The medium is almost secondary.
Quote from: Aos;445500Some people really dig drama, it makes them feel important. The medium is almost secondary.
(The fundamental theorem for drama inclined individuals).
The possible mediums of choice are all isomorphic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/isomorphic) to one another. :rolleyes:
Quote from: RPGPundit;445498The thing is, magick doesn't "fail to work". It does very specific things in reality. One of them is the psychosomatic effect. But there are other more powerful things beyond that.
If you say so.
QuoteThe point is that the way to be "authentic" about it is not to say "here's the propaganda party line about how this ought to work, and we're going to pretend that's how it does even though everyone knows that's not true". The way to be authentic is to show things as they really are, and how magick is a parasite-infested cesspool that sucks you in where only the very careful or the very crazy can get more out of it than what it costs them (to their wallets, their sanity, and their connection to society).
So play Sorcerer if that's what you want.
Quote from: ggroy;445503(The fundamental theorem for drama inclined individuals).
The possible mediums of choice are all isomorphic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/isomorphic) to one another. :rolleyes:
Yeah, the pundits description of the way wiccans behave kind of made me think of some grad students I've known. The wiccans sound like they might be slightly better people, though.
Quote from: Aos;445507Yeah, the pundits description of the way wiccans behave kind of made me think of some grad students I've known. The wiccans sound like they might be slightly better people, though.
The same can be said of academics (ie. professors, postdocs, etc ...) in general.
I got stick and tired of all that sort of stuff. (Many years ago I gave up a tenured professor job at a liberal arts type college, for the private sector).
In general, life is very much like that.
There's always going to be somebody who wants to be the person on top or the "king of the castle", even if it's a small group (or in their own minds).
Quote from: ggroy;445509The same can be said of academics (ie. professors, postdocs, etc ...) in general.
I got stick and tired of all that sort of stuff. (Many years ago I gave up a tenured professor job at a liberal arts type college, for the private sector).
I did both my undergraduate and graduate stuff really late in life ( I got my BA at 40). I've been out for a couple of months now and I knew I wouldn't pine away for it, but man, I didn't even miss it for an hour. I'm looking at working for a community college (I only have a MS), which, from what I've been is not such a toxic environment. I remain skeptical.
Quote from: ggroy;445511In general, life is very much like that.
There's always going to be somebody who wants to be the person on top or the "king of the castle", even if it's a small group (or in their own minds).
Grad students with these issues are usually lacking in subtlety- to say the least. I'm especially fond of those that pretend at secret knowledge or some kind of higher status.
However, as you hint, there is plenty of this in the private sector as well, but it is somewhat mitigated. The difference I think is best stated by Dan Akroyd as in
Ghost Busters "You've never worked in the Private sector, they expect results!"
Quote from: Aos;445513I'm looking at working for a community college (I only have a MS), which, from what I've been is not such a toxic environment. I remain skeptical.
Same sort of toxic environment at a community college, but more localized.
At a liberal arts or research university, the toxicity isn't just localized at the university level. There's also the toxicity from one's particular chosen field (ie. journal referees, conferences, etc ...), as well as from funding agencies.
Quote from: Aos;445515However, as you hint, there is plenty of this in the private sector as well, but it is somewhat mitigated. The difference I think is best stated by Dan Akroyd as in Ghost Busters "You've never worked in the Private sector, they expect results!"
What I liked better about the private sector, is that there's many more different places to find work.
At a college/university level, there are not as many places to change employment to if one gets stuck in a very toxic environment. The exception would be a Nobel Laureate, who can pretty much sign their own ticket anywhere.
Quote from: Aos;445515Grad students with these issues are usually lacking in subtlety- to say the least. I'm especially fond of those that pretend at secret knowledge or some kind of higher status.
I use to be like this when I was younger. Many other grad students and younger assistant professors were like this too.
Having also been an academic I can say that the main differences between academia and occultism is not that academia is "legitimate" and occultism is not, but that Academia has a much more stratified set of rules of "if you do a, b, and c then everyone has to believe you are accomplished". Whereas occultism doesn't have the same kind of stratification to the methods, leading to more people just being able to spontaneously declare themselves a "Witch Queen" or the "Grand and Illustrious Outer Head of the Order", or to say that they've spoken with aliens or the earth mother or whatever, and you are left having to see if you believe them or not.
Note that this is why I basically don't believe in the "legitimacy" of academia anymore. Because if someone knows how that stratified system works, its very easy to become an "accomplished academic" without having to actually know anything at all that's real about your subject matter; you just have to know a lot about how academics speak about the subject matter.
There is some of that in occultism also, but there being no "approved code" like there is in academia, no set defined steps you go through to "be somebody", so whether you're somebody or not tends to depend much more on the eye of the beholder. This is sometimes good, because if you are capable of looking at people without a bias, you can examine them based on what they have accomplished and how they are rather than whether they've filled in certain checkmarks without any regard to how.
On the other side, its often bad, because most people interested in occultism aren't unbiased observers. They're full of the worst kinds of bias, particularly the bias of "anything that challenges my flimsy world view is a menace" and "anyone who looks like they do more work than me or know more stuff than me is a menace because they'll make me look bad, and others might expect me to actually do stuff too".
RPGPundit
Quote from: ggroy;445519I use to be like this when I was younger. Many other grad students and younger assistant professors were like this too.
It's a common problem- and, really, I can see how I might have indulged in some of it had I been a bit younger. It is an environment rife with uncertainty. It is difficult to adjust to, especially when one considers that most people in grad school emerged from undergraduate programs as top dog.
Quote from: RPGPundit;445521Note that this is why I basically don't believe in the "legitimacy" of academia anymore. Because if someone knows how that stratified system works, its very easy to become an "accomplished academic" without having to actually know anything at all that's real about your subject matter; you just have to know a lot about how academics speak about the subject matter.
RPGPundit
Indeed. It varies from department to department, but this is, ime, essentially true. My discipline is also in the midst of a thirty year plus identity war, which means you have to mouth the proper party line, or out you go.
Some academics can be fooled by their own "tunnel vision".
For example, the infamous Sokal Hoax from 15 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_Affair
Quote from: RPGPundit;445497I'll tell you something else, 15 out of every 20 wiccans or "magicians" (or should that be magickians?) I have met have never actually even attempted to "cast a spell" in their lives. Their efforts amount to sometimes just calling themselves wiccans or magicians, in some cases owning one or more books, in fewer cases actually having read at least one (but not practicing anything at all from it), and maybe owning a tarot deck.
Of the other 5, 4 out of 5 have only ever done the most absolute basic practice (ie. the "lesser banishing ritual" or "casting a circle") and infrequently.
That leaves about 5% of the total "occult" population who have actually done something. And in general, there is a pretty steep curve with those guys where it begins with doing some spells here and there or dabbling in the goetia, and then very quickly go into seriously fucked up "unknown armies" territories.
An incredible amount of it is all about "rep" in the community, and the number of "wars" I've seen in local communities is just ridiculous. Put 5 occultists together in a room and within an hour they'll have formed a group, within two hours they'll have split into two groups, and after a bit they'll be 3 groups, and then none.
A lot of it is massive complexes and egos; Israel Regardie once said "wicca is the only religion I know of where you can find two grown men beating each other up over who gets to be called 'Lord Merlin'". He forgot to mention that his own branch of ceremonial magick, the "golden dawn" has had so many schisms and massive conflicts over "legitimacy", "magickal authority", who has got the approval of the "secret chiefs", etc. that essentially there is no way (besides random preference) to judge who is the "real" Golden Dawn. Sadly a great deal of this infighting often happens among the 15 out of 20 people who do no magickal practice whatsoever (besides reading).
Those are the kinds of things you have to portray if you are going to show real "authentic" thaumaturgy in a modern game.
RPGPundit
RPGPundit
As an observation, nothing more, when I started doing my university dissertation, which was on funerary rites, I approached a North London based Wiccan group. They were excessively keen for me to come and observe them, I guess it gave them a certain 'credibility'. However after a couple of visits a few things were obvious. the first is that their "traddition" could reallistically be traced back to about 1890 and that was being generous 1970 would be more accurate, that it wasn't a living religion in the sense that living religions have rights of passage that form a genuine fabric whereas these guys just had a bunch of rituals with no authentic context. It also dawned on me that none of them were going to die soon, despite a couple in their 40's who looked about twice that due to lifestyle choices. So I went to the Greek Orthodox church in Camden instead, loads of people dying there so it was perfect ....
Quote from: two_fishes;445504QuoteOriginally Posted by RPGPundit View Post
The thing is, magick doesn't "fail to work". It does very specific things in reality. One of them is the psychosomatic effect. But there are other more powerful things beyond that.
If you say so.
I used to do a lot of reading on the subject (as I noted above my degree is basically in Magic :) ) and I used to do a lot of Tarot Cards readings. Very accurate and precise ones too.
Now Tarot is the perfect example of {reading a person + Jungian Free association + Bullshit} = MAGICK . Now does that make it useless... no not at all it's as useful as a course on positive thinking and I reckon a good Magic practicioner is at least as useful as a NLP trainer.
Levi-Strauss wrote a very interesting essay about Mexican (Cuna) birthing ritual. The shaman performs some elaborate ritual practise but Levei-Strauss pulled it right back to a direct parallel with psycho-analysis. So if you think psycho-analysis is useful then magic probably is as well.
Quote from: jibbajibba;445529Now Tarot is the perfect example of {reading a person + Jungian Free association + Bullshit} = MAGICK . Now does that make it useless... no not at all it's as useful as a course on positive thinking and I reckon a good Magic practicioner is at least as useful as a NLP trainer.
How much of this is just a plain "cold reading"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
Quote from: jibbajibba;445529Levi-Strauss wrote a very interesting essay about Mexican (Cuna) birthing ritual. The shaman performs some elaborate ritual practise but Levei-Strauss pulled it right back to a direct parallel with psycho-analysis. So if you think psycho-analysis is useful then magic probably is as well.
I'll give you that, and I would call that a worthwhile psychosomatic or psychological effect. And if the actual practice of magic(k) requires discipline, diligence, and training of will, then it would obviously have all the benefits of those things as well, which is also a psychological effect, which I'm happy to grant. But the quote I responded to was
Quote from: RPGPundit;445498The thing is, magick doesn't "fail to work". It does very specific things in reality. One of them is the psychosomatic effect. But there are other more powerful things beyond that.
It was the opaque comment about the mysterious, other, more powerful things that I was rolling my eyes at.
Quote from: two_fishes;445532I'll give you that, and I would call that a worthwhile psychosomatic or psychological effect. And if the actual practice of magic(k) requires discipline, diligence, and training of will, then it would obviously have all the benefits of those things as well, which is also a psychological effect, which I'm happy to grant.
Are these psychosomatic effects nothing more substantial than a "placebo"?
Quote from: ggroy;445530How much of this is just a plain "cold reading"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
I think there is a fair bit of linguistic programming in there as well. Cold reading on its own will get you so far but having some tools that can direct focus and manipulate perception is that little bit more.
Take Derren Brown the stage magician. His schtick is to tell you that this isn't magic, because magic doesn't exist, this is a mix of psychology, suggestion, NLP etc etc ...
Now what he is actually doing is the same thing that magicians have always done but whereas they said it was MAGICK and achieved it through stagecraft, misdirection, suggestion etc he says its MAGICK MIND SCIENCE and then does exactly the same thing.... good trick though :)
Quote from: two_fishes;445532It was the opaque comment about the mysterious, other, more powerful things that I was rolling my eyes at.
You have to remember that the Pundit is a Master mason, 33rd degree in the Scotish rite, Knight of the Rosy Cross, Knight Templar etc etc .
Quote from: jibbajibba;445539You have to remember that the Pundit is a Master mason, 33rd degree in the Scotish rite, Knight of the Rosy Cross, Knight Templar etc etc .
Full of shit. Gotchya.
Quote from: RPGPundit;445497I'll tell you something else, 15 out of every 20 wiccans or "magicians" (or should that be magickians?) I have met have never actually even attempted to "cast a spell" in their lives. Their efforts amount to sometimes just calling themselves wiccans or magicians, in some cases owning one or more books, in fewer cases actually having read at least one (but not practicing anything at all from it), and maybe owning a tarot deck.
Of the other 5, 4 out of 5 have only ever done the most absolute basic practice (ie. the "lesser banishing ritual" or "casting a circle") and infrequently.
IME, this is because despite their protestations to the contrary, most of them hold far more internal faith in the (usually Judeo-Christian) religions they've joined these sects to rebel against.
It's one thing to wear a Thor's Hammer or a Pentagram and dress in black a lot and call yourself a Wiccan or some shit, but actually taking the step of practicing actual witchcraft, of which the Bible and the Torah have some fairly harsh things to say about the consequences thereof.
So, posers, basically. They're still very much entrenched in the mythos of their parents' religion, they're just denying it to themselves.
To be fair, most of the wiccans I know, at least those in their twenties and early thirties, were raised by other wiccans... though I suspect their parents were 'converts'.
Trying to claim its some hidden internal faith breaks down somewhere along the line when discussing generational wiccans.
Quote from: Spike;445565To be fair, most of the wiccans I know, at least those in their twenties and early thirties, were raised by other wiccans... though I suspect their parents were 'converts'.
Trying to claim its some hidden internal faith breaks down somewhere along the line when discussing generational wiccans.
The strangest case I heard of were parents that were hardcore atheists. One of the kids became a christian priest of some sort. Probably it was a form of rebellion against the parents.
Quote from: ggroy;445530How much of this is just a plain "cold reading"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
It depends on the reader. If you are trained in the correct use of the Tarot, in terms of understanding the symbols of the cards and the way they work in terms of "dignities" with each other in a spread, it should be "not at all".
But since about 90% of people who do readings aren't actually trained in the Tarot in any meaningful way, the answer would be, in practice "quite a lot".
RPGPundit
Quote from: J Arcane;445561IME, this is because despite their protestations to the contrary, most of them hold far more internal faith in the (usually Judeo-Christian) religions they've joined these sects to rebel against.
It's one thing to wear a Thor's Hammer or a Pentagram and dress in black a lot and call yourself a Wiccan or some shit, but actually taking the step of practicing actual witchcraft, of which the Bible and the Torah have some fairly harsh things to say about the consequences thereof.
So, posers, basically. They're still very much entrenched in the mythos of their parents' religion, they're just denying it to themselves.
I could tell you that while I'm sure that in a few cases that is true; and while I have no doubt whatsoever that you could say many new-agers and neo-pagans' personal ethics are still thoroughly judeo-christian despite their bleatings to the contrary, my experience is that in fact this is nothing to do with the reason why most self-style "occultists" don't practice magick.
The answer is really simpler than that; it is laziness, an almost pathological incapacity for discipline, and the fact that part of why they got interested in this subject or religion in the first place was because it seemed to them a way to claim "power" or "specialness" without having to do any actual work for it.
If they could claim to be "scientists" (and be taken seriously by anyone) without having to actually get a degree or study anything, then they would surely have done that (or any number of other things) instead.
RPGPundit
And the "other, more powerful things" I was alluding to was not meant to be a veiled reference at some kind of supernatural power, but that when done right, "Magick" (like eastern mysticism) is a complete process of discipline for a profound kind of personal transformation.
Unfortunately, very few actually use it that way.
RPGPundit