Quote from: two_fishes;445504

QuoteOriginally Posted by RPGPundit View Post
The thing is, magick doesn't "fail to work". It does very specific things in reality. One of them is the psychosomatic effect. But there are other more powerful things beyond that.

If you say so.

I used to do a lot of reading on the subject (as I noted above my degree is basically in Magic ) and I used to do a lot of Tarot Cards readings. Very accurate and precise ones too.

Now Tarot is the perfect example of {reading a person + Jungian Free association + Bullshit} = MAGICK . Now does that make it useless... no not at all it's as useful as a course on positive thinking and I reckon a good Magic practicioner is at least as useful as a NLP trainer.

Levi-Strauss wrote a very interesting essay about Mexican (Cuna) birthing ritual. The shaman performs some elaborate ritual practise but Levei-Strauss pulled it right back to a direct parallel with psycho-analysis. So if you think psycho-analysis is useful then magic probably is as well.

Quote from: jibbajibba;445529Now Tarot is the perfect example of {reading a person + Jungian Free association + Bullshit} = MAGICK . Now does that make it useless... no not at all it's as useful as a course on positive thinking and I reckon a good Magic practicioner is at least as useful as a NLP trainer.

How much of this is just a plain "cold reading"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

Quote from: jibbajibba;445529Levi-Strauss wrote a very interesting essay about Mexican (Cuna) birthing ritual. The shaman performs some elaborate ritual practise but Levei-Strauss pulled it right back to a direct parallel with psycho-analysis. So if you think psycho-analysis is useful then magic probably is as well.

I'll give you that, and I would call that a worthwhile psychosomatic or psychological effect. And if the actual practice of magic(k) requires discipline, diligence, and training of will, then it would obviously have all the benefits of those things as well, which is also a psychological effect, which I'm happy to grant. But the quote I responded to was

Quote from: RPGPundit;445498The thing is, magick doesn't "fail to work".  It does very specific things in reality.  One of them is the psychosomatic effect.  But there are other more powerful things beyond that.

It was the opaque comment about the mysterious, other, more powerful things that I was rolling my eyes at.

Quote from: two_fishes;445532I'll give you that, and I would call that a worthwhile psychosomatic or psychological effect. And if the actual practice of magic(k) requires discipline, diligence, and training of will, then it would obviously have all the benefits of those things as well, which is also a psychological effect, which I'm happy to grant.

Are these psychosomatic effects nothing more substantial than a "placebo"?

Quote from: ggroy;445530How much of this is just a plain "cold reading"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

I think there is a fair bit of linguistic programming in there as well. Cold reading on its own will get you so far but having some tools that can direct focus and manipulate perception is that little bit more.

Take Derren Brown the stage magician. His schtick is to tell you that this isn't magic, because magic doesn't exist, this is a mix of psychology, suggestion, NLP etc etc ...
Now what he is actually doing is the same thing that magicians have always done but whereas they said it was MAGICK and achieved it through stagecraft, misdirection, suggestion etc he says its MAGICK MIND SCIENCE and then does exactly the same thing.... good trick though

Quote from: two_fishes;445532It was the opaque comment about the mysterious, other, more powerful things that I was rolling my eyes at.

You have to remember that the Pundit is a Master mason, 33rd degree in the Scotish rite, Knight of the Rosy Cross, Knight Templar etc etc .

Quote from: jibbajibba;445539You have to remember that the Pundit is a Master mason, 33rd degree in the Scotish rite, Knight of the Rosy Cross, Knight Templar etc etc .

Full of shit. Gotchya.

Quote from: RPGPundit;445497I'll tell you something else, 15 out of every 20 wiccans or "magicians" (or should that be magickians?) I have met have never actually even attempted to "cast a spell" in their lives.  Their efforts amount to sometimes just calling themselves wiccans or magicians, in some cases owning one or more books, in fewer cases actually having read at least one (but not practicing anything at all from it), and maybe owning a tarot deck.

Of the other 5, 4 out of 5 have only ever done the most absolute basic practice (ie. the "lesser banishing ritual" or "casting a circle") and infrequently.

IME, this is because despite their protestations to the contrary, most of them hold far more internal faith in the (usually Judeo-Christian) religions they've joined these sects to rebel against.  

It's one thing to wear a Thor's Hammer or a Pentagram and dress in black a lot and call yourself a Wiccan or some shit, but actually taking the step of practicing actual witchcraft, of which the Bible and the Torah have some fairly harsh things to say about the consequences thereof.

So, posers, basically.  They're still very much entrenched in the mythos of their parents' religion, they're just denying it to themselves.

To be fair, most of the wiccans I know, at least those in their twenties and early thirties, were raised by other wiccans... though I suspect their parents were 'converts'.

Trying to claim its some hidden internal faith breaks down somewhere along the line when discussing generational wiccans.

Quote from: Spike;445565To be fair, most of the wiccans I know, at least those in their twenties and early thirties, were raised by other wiccans... though I suspect their parents were 'converts'.

Trying to claim its some hidden internal faith breaks down somewhere along the line when discussing generational wiccans.

The strangest case I heard of were parents that were hardcore atheists.  One of the kids became a christian priest of some sort.  Probably it was a form of rebellion against the parents.

Quote from: ggroy;445530How much of this is just a plain "cold reading"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

It depends on the reader.  If you are trained in the correct use of the Tarot, in terms of understanding the symbols of the cards and the way they work in terms of "dignities" with each other in a spread, it should be "not at all".

But since about 90% of people who do readings aren't actually trained in the Tarot in any meaningful way, the answer would be, in practice "quite a lot".

RPGPundit

Quote from: J Arcane;445561IME, this is because despite their protestations to the contrary, most of them hold far more internal faith in the (usually Judeo-Christian) religions they've joined these sects to rebel against.  

It's one thing to wear a Thor's Hammer or a Pentagram and dress in black a lot and call yourself a Wiccan or some shit, but actually taking the step of practicing actual witchcraft, of which the Bible and the Torah have some fairly harsh things to say about the consequences thereof.

So, posers, basically.  They're still very much entrenched in the mythos of their parents' religion, they're just denying it to themselves.

I could tell you that while I'm sure that in a few cases that is true; and while I have no doubt whatsoever that you could say many new-agers and neo-pagans' personal ethics are still thoroughly judeo-christian despite their bleatings to the contrary, my experience is that in fact this is nothing to do with the reason why most self-style "occultists" don't practice magick.

The answer is really simpler than that; it is laziness, an almost pathological incapacity for discipline, and the fact that part of why they got interested in this subject or religion in the first place was because it seemed to them a way to claim "power" or "specialness" without having to do any actual work for it.  
If they could claim to be "scientists" (and be taken seriously by anyone) without having to actually get a degree or study anything, then they would surely have done that (or any number of other things) instead.

RPGPundit

And the "other, more powerful things" I was alluding to was not meant to be a veiled reference at some kind of supernatural power, but that when done right, "Magick" (like eastern mysticism) is a complete process of discipline for a profound kind of personal transformation.  

Unfortunately, very few actually use it that way.

RPGPundit