Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 03, 2023, 08:54:03 PM
There are two distinct moments when the referee could gauge the disposition of NPCs: (a) on first sight, and (b) after a few words/offers are exchanged.

I would be more specific than that.

a) I would say first impression, which is may or may not have anything to do with first sight, and
b) for any "ask" on the initial encounter. And I say "ask" excluding merely words because if there are certain words or ideas PCs utter that might reasonably trigger another encounter reaction check, those triggers should be noted rather than being an intrinsic part of the encounter reaction table, and of course the triggers may stipulate resolution by means other than using that table.

QuoteHow do you deal with that, in practice? Let's say a pack of wolves appear. Do you roll immediately to see if they attack? Using whose Charisma? What do amicable wolves do?

First thing to note is the encounter reaction table is NOT the only "social mechanic" built into the game. And it generally would not be appropriate to use it at all in an encounter with wolves. If the character was able to Speak with Animals, then we could go to this table and apply the Charisma adjustment and the whole bit. But otherwise wolves will do what wolves do. And if you need mechanical guidance in that, consult the morale system.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why I feel gamers--players, DMs, and game designers alike--all grossly underestimate the benefits of high INT in the BtB 1.0E game. Those additional languages open up the field of who you can and can't parley with via this table. Yeah, yeah, I know there is plenty of communication that is non-verbal. Which is why first thing I noted is that this table is not the only social mechanic in the game. "Oonga, boonga, me Tarzan," is just not the sort of thing this table was primarily designed for.

QuoteWhat if a few bandits appear, you roll, and THEN the PCs make an offer (bribe) so both sides can walk away uninjured. Roll again? Add Charisma then?

More or less, yes, but I generally do not add Charisma to subsequent rolls. The first roll sets the tone for the encounter. If, for example, the bandits are Enthusiastically Friendly, there's not going to be a need for another roll for any reasonable request, especially one that is mutually beneficial. Just like if the result is Violently Hostile, there isn't going to be a second roll on this table happening. So long as the request isn't completely out of whack with the initial reaction, it's mostly the neutral results that are going to require subsequent checks, and those are spelled out as being 55% prone to negative, completely neutral, and 55% prone to positive.

QuoteAre people with Charisma 18 exempt from being immediately attacked by wolves?

Well obviously not. But if a Speak with Animals is in play and the whisperer has an 18 CHR, then yeah, I agree, this becomes a good question. Because BtB, the answer is yes. Provided there are no penalties in play, a high enough Charisma bonus can remove the possibility of there being any immediate hostile action against the character. And there are reasons why that's a good thing and reasons why that's a bad thing.

What I do is I separate this into two dice rolls to be rolled simultaneously. One determines whether the reaction is good or bad. The other acts as sort of a degree of success or failure. One the first die roll, 01-50 = bad, 51-00 = good. For that second die roll, there are four possible outcomes (d10), 1 = worst, 2-5 = worse, 6-9 = better, 10 = best. So the bad outcomes range from "Violently hostile, immediate attack" at worst, up to "Neutral - uninterested - uncertain" at best. And the good outcomes range from "Neutral - uninterested - uncertain" at worst and "Enthusiastically friendly, immediate acceptance" at best.

This preserves the exact probabilities of the 1E Encounter Reactions table. Only now, when the CHR adjustment is applied to the percentile roll, the extreme results never go to zero but to scale proportionately according to the probability of getting a Good vs Bad result.

QuoteOr do you roll twice (I'm tempted to do this), start with the most obvious disposition, roll then roleplay, other solutions, etc.

Thanks!

EDIT: I'm accepting both "this is how we do" and "this is what the official tules we use say!".

I'm saying it again because it cannot be stressed enough. The Encounter Reactions table is not the only social mechanic the game has. I've mentioned Morale. But then there's also a loyalty system. Additionally, when creating the actual game content--specific NPCs, monsters, situations--virtually anything can be stipulated. And I can give a 100% BtB example of this. If a Dryad is near a male with 16 or greater Charisma, she will use her Charm Person spell on him. But I would also point to another fine example from a third-party source, the adventure Irilian published in White Dwarf assigns bribability stats to all the NPCs. There is also a gem hidden in the underwater basket weaving Appendix of the 1E DMG (actually, it's the pursuit and evasion section) that gives a probability of an NPC or monster breaking off pursuit based on distance, relative movement speeds, intelligence, and items thrown down by the fleeing party.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 06, 2023, 09:43:50 AM
It's a neat idea. My only thing would be that to me, one of the selling points of the reaction roll is that you can miscellaneously use it for any random NPC without doing any prep work. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your plan, there, but wouldn't that require you to write a list of possible motivations for every NPC?

My book Teratogenicon has a list of goals for each monster type. This is for beasts:

d6 Goals
1 Food. I must find food to survive.
2 Territory. This is my land; all that enter are allies or game.
3 Kin. I must protect the pack.
4 Mating. I need to find a mate to procreate.
5 Sleep. It is time to rest, unless someone disturbs me.
6 Fear. There are predators and famine in this land, I must run or hide.

Celestials:
1 Protection. I will protect this person (or place, object, etc.) with my soul.
2 Obedience. I exist only to serve my deity's orders and further its cause.
3 Healing. I heal the sick and bring comfort to the wounded.
4 Zeal. I must rid the world of demons and all creatures that are evil by nature, no matter the cost.
5 Guidance. I do not interfere directly, but provide guidance and aid so the faithful can fight their own battles.
6 Justice. Let justice be done though the heavens fall. No mercy for sinners!
Giants
1 Hunger. What do you mean by "your" cattle?
2 Arrogance. Puny humanoids! How dare you stay in my way?
3 Power. Bow before me, tiny people, and I'll let you keep your village.
4 Solitude. This is my mountain! Just leave me alone!
5 Greatness. I will build enormous structures that will stand before time.
6 Rage. I will smash you down!

Etc.

I didn't include one for humanoids, because it would be endless.

Humanoid ideals are almost infinite. Wealth and pleasure are
common goals but they can take many forms. A humanoid
may desire beauty, gold, power, knowledge, health, freedom,
romance, respect, honor, fame, domination, mastery, calm,
kinship, safety, excitement, family, friends, sport, justice,
and so on. In addition to individual aspirations, each
humanoid group has their own ideals – dwarves respect
craftsmanship, for example, while wood elves often try to
protect the woods, etc.

Aside all that... maybe you don't need to roll for goals at all, but you can come up with something obvious. A beast is looking for food, or protecting if found in lair. Bandits are looking for easy money, not a bloody fight. Etc.

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 06, 2023, 11:41:42 AM
I'm saying it again because it cannot be stressed enough. The Encounter Reactions table is not the only social mechanic the game has. I've mentioned Morale. But then there's also a loyalty system. Additionally, when creating the actual game content--specific NPCs, monsters, situations--virtually anything can be stipulated. And I can give a 100% BtB example of this. If a Dryad is near a male with 16 or greater Charisma, she will use her Charm Person spell on him. But I would also point to another fine example from a third-party source, the adventure Irilian published in White Dwarf assigns bribability stats to all the NPCs. There is also a gem hidden in the underwater basket weaving Appendix of the 1E DMG (actually, it's the pursuit and evasion section) that gives a probability of an NPC or monster breaking off pursuit based on distance, relative movement speeds, intelligence, and items thrown down by the fleeing party.

Interesting stuff.

I agree that a module could add interesting goals and reaction to new encounters (e.g., 2d6 hungry wolves, will attack if they outnumber the PCs two-to-one), the dryad is a good example.

I love this breaking off pursuit part. I thought I had read it in Moldvay's Basic; humanoids might stop if you drop gold, beasts if you drop food.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 06, 2023, 01:40:35 PM
Interesting stuff.

I agree that a module could add interesting goals and reaction to new encounters (e.g., 2d6 hungry wolves, will attack if they outnumber the PCs two-to-one), the dryad is a good example.

Yup. Exactly.

QuoteI love this breaking off pursuit part. I thought I had read it in Moldvay's Basic; humanoids might stop if you drop gold, beasts if you drop food.

AD&D distinguishes the lesser intelligent humanoids from the more intelligent ones. Dummies like orcs just know bright and shiny. So they go by quantity. Dropping a single gold coin is less effective than drooping a handful of coppers worth only a fraction of the value. But the more intelligent humanoids would have some semblance of the value of the items dropped. So there GP value determines the probability of them breaking off pursuit.

Oddly enough, that little nugget found its way into the Munchkin card game. But I can't think of it anywhere else, aside from maybe some side-scroller fighting games. Like Double Dragon or Final Fight, getting hit can cause you to drop a weapon.

Otherwise, it's something that's been lost. And it's something that I think is a pretty key ingredient to making the game "work" well.

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 06, 2023, 11:41:42 AM\
I'm saying it again because it cannot be stressed enough. The Encounter Reactions table is not the only social mechanic the game has. I've mentioned Morale. But then there's also a loyalty system. Additionally, when creating the actual game content--specific NPCs, monsters, situations--virtually anything can be stipulated. And I can give a 100% BtB example of this. If a Dryad is near a male with 16 or greater Charisma, she will use her Charm Person spell on him. But I would also point to another fine example from a third-party source, the adventure Irilian published in White Dwarf assigns bribability stats to all the NPCs.

And then there's this: 

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 06, 2023, 11:41:42 AM\
There is also a gem hidden in the underwater basket weaving Appendix of the 1E DMG (actually, it's the pursuit and evasion section) that gives a probability of an NPC or monster breaking off pursuit based on distance, relative movement speeds, intelligence, and items thrown down by the fleeing party.

Being honest, I'd care more about NPCs breaking off pursuit if it was something PCs ever did. Generally, I have a really good group of players. They engage with NPCs, they negotiate; they even take prisoners. Hell, they've talked their way out of several of the toughest fights in the campaign. But the instant an enemy tries to flee from a fight, they turn into f*cking terminators. I don't know if it's subconscious video game thinking, or it's just that they have the privilege of knowing exactly how much HP they have, and therefore how much risk they're taking by chasing, but I've seen the exact same thing repeatedly with other groups. At that point, NPCs pursuing them to the death is just fair play.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 06, 2023, 03:20:01 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 06, 2023, 11:41:42 AM\
I'm saying it again because it cannot be stressed enough. The Encounter Reactions table is not the only social mechanic the game has. I've mentioned Morale. But then there's also a loyalty system. Additionally, when creating the actual game content--specific NPCs, monsters, situations--virtually anything can be stipulated. And I can give a 100% BtB example of this. If a Dryad is near a male with 16 or greater Charisma, she will use her Charm Person spell on him. But I would also point to another fine example from a third-party source, the adventure Irilian published in White Dwarf assigns bribability stats to all the NPCs.

And then there's this: 

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 06, 2023, 11:41:42 AM\
There is also a gem hidden in the underwater basket weaving Appendix of the 1E DMG (actually, it's the pursuit and evasion section) that gives a probability of an NPC or monster breaking off pursuit based on distance, relative movement speeds, intelligence, and items thrown down by the fleeing party.

Being honest, I'd care more about NPCs breaking off pursuit if it was something PCs ever did. Generally, I have a really good group of players. They engage with NPCs, they negotiate; they even take prisoners. Hell, they've talked their way out of several of the toughest fights in the campaign. But the instant an enemy tries to flee from a fight, they turn into f*cking terminators. I don't know if it's subconscious video game thinking, or it's just that they have the privilege of knowing exactly how much HP they have, and therefore how much risk they're taking by chasing, but I've seen the exact same thing repeatedly with other groups. At that point, NPCs pursuing them to the death is just fair play.

This is very odd but also quite close to what I'm looking for...

1. Goals and disposition. Decide (or roll for) goals and disposition, in any order.
2. Role-playing and actions. Ask what the PCs say and do.
3. Roll to persuade and reactions. Roll to see how the NPCs react, if it isn't obvious.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 06, 2023, 03:31:17 PM
This is very odd

The assumption that seduction involves an 'aggressor' and an 'unwilling' victim is both odd and skeevy. It's like the Catherine McKinnon/Andrea Dworkin Book of Seduction!

Quote from: S'mon on May 06, 2023, 03:36:55 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 06, 2023, 03:31:17 PM
This is very odd

The assumption that seduction involves an 'aggressor' and an 'unwilling' victim is both odd and skeevy. It's like the Catherine McKinnon/Andrea Dworkin Book of Seduction!

This is one of the weirdest things, yes.

Also an "aggressive" approach is favorable, but "lady-like" is even better... and then by the last type we are assuming your hiring prostitutes and risking disease by the minute it seems if you have some fortitude you can safely rotate through multiple partners as long as you don't last more than 4 minutes or so... oh wait, there is the natural 1).

OTOH it is very equal opportunity, a naked male will attract lots of good will, and a naked gentleman is nearly irresistible!

Wow, I posted that for a gag. Didn't even occur to me that it would actually be relevant to the topic. Since it seems to be, I'll provide a little context.

I screencapped that from a pdf of "Slaver's Caravan, a Hyborian Age Adventure", an (apparently unofficial) adventure for Mongoose's D20 Conan by Craig Tidwell, and is part of a 5 page appendix to the adventure. The following pages include further rules and tables for the contraction of STDs, as well as prostitute generator and a random table for populating Hyborian Age brothels. 

Being totally fair to the author, the kind of pulp tales that game is trying to replicate aren't exactly famous for their subtle and sophisticated examinations of romance. They're light-hearted escapist fantasy, essentially the equivalent of "bodice-rippers" for men. Loose women and unrealistically straightforward courtships are part of the genre.

Don't get me wrong; I still think the tables are silly. That's why I screenshot them. But as long as the author knew he was being silly, I give it a pass.

EDIT: It occurs to me that the inclusion of extensive STD rules kind of flies in the face of the "escapist fantasy" argument, so I don't know what the author thought he was about...

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 06, 2023, 06:25:52 PM
Wow, I posted that for a gag. Didn't even occur to me that it would actually be relevant to the topic. Since it seems to be, I'll provide a little context.

I screencapped that from a pdf of "Slaver's Caravan, a Hyborian Age Adventure", an (apparently unofficial) adventure for Mongoose's D20 Conan by Craig Tidwell, and is part of a 5 page appendix to the adventure. The following pages include further rules and tables for the contraction of STDs, as well as prostitute generator and a random table for populating Hyborian Age brothels. 

Being totally fair to the author, the kind of pulp tales that game is trying to replicate aren't exactly famous for their subtle and sophisticated examinations of romance. They're light-hearted escapist fantasy, essentially the equivalent of "bodice-rippers" for men. Loose women and unrealistically straightforward courtships are part of the genre.

Don't get me wrong; I still think the tables are silly. That's why I screenshot them. But as long as the author knew he was being silly, I give it a pass.

EDIT: It occurs to me that the inclusion of extensive STD rules kind of flies in the face of the "escapist fantasy" argument, so I don't know what the author thought he was about...

It's very silly. I remember I actually ran it, at least part of it, 20 years ago with a solo female player/female barbarian PC as her intro to a Conan campaign. She wasn't very impressed at being offered sexual access to the slave girls as part of her pay for guarding the caravan.  Obviously I ignored all those tables but I did think they looked slightly familiar just now!

I'm not really sure why Xoth hosts it. Everything else on xoth.net is pretty high quality. The Conan stuff is at https://hyboria.xoth.net/adventures/index.htm

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 06, 2023, 03:20:01 PM
Being honest, I'd care more about NPCs breaking off pursuit if it was something PCs ever did. Generally, I have a really good group of players. They engage with NPCs, they negotiate; they even take prisoners. Hell, they've talked their way out of several of the toughest fights in the campaign. But the instant an enemy tries to flee from a fight, they turn into f*cking terminators. I don't know if it's subconscious video game thinking, or it's just that they have the privilege of knowing exactly how much HP they have, and therefore how much risk they're taking by chasing, but I've seen the exact same thing repeatedly with other groups. At that point, NPCs pursuing them to the death is just fair play.

Eh. It's not like we're talking about doing anyone any favors. Didn't we recently have a thread on morale? I remember pointing out somewhere that fighting to the death is basically making your battles twice as difficult. If that's how the players want to roll, that's on them.

I've seen players do it anyway, and there are different reasons for it. In the absence of clear objectives in a combat, a total wipeout is the clearest victory. In the absence of sufficient information, one heuristic is whatever your enemy is motivated to do should be thwarted. This would extend to escapes. But paranoia probably tops the list. Some players are also GMs, and as GM they would totally screw over the PCs by having these monsters come back more powerful and seeking revenge. Some players are accustomed to there being a story. A fairly common story element has the protagonist meet the antagonist early on but the big battle doesn't happen to later. And here's a chance to nip this in the bud. Some players might assume the enemies will regroup and try try again until the party is dead because that's what the players would have their characters do after fleeing from a strong opponent. Some players are just completists. Others will view interpret the enemy fleeing as a chase challenge to best.

That last one I saw recently, and it was painful to witness as GM. The player pulled out all the stops just to "win" the chase. He didn't kill the NPC. Just wanted to capture him and question him. There was a mystery afoot. The thing is, the PC could have hung back a little, let the NPC think he broke off pursuit, then followed or tracked the NPC and gotten answers that way. In this case, the NPC would have led the PC right to the secret hideout.

Whatever the reason, it's often not a good idea. And if I had to stop caring about some rule every time PCs did something stupid, we'd be back to playing Cops & Robbers fairly quickly.

How hard would it be for some enemies looking to take out the PCs to only send a fraction of their force to confront the PCs, flee when they get badly beaten, only to be chased down like dogs by the PCs, leading the PCs right into an ambush with the full force. How many times would that happen before PCs stopped chasing everything down and say, "Let's just wait and see how this plays itself out."?

I mirror my players attitude. If players attack the encounter attacks or runs.
If players try to talk the encounter talks and I judge reaction by the discussion. Very informal. Oh, and I roll die and stare at them randomly and consult non-existent notes to keep them from figuring it all out.

I also use the encounters alignment as a basis for their attitude.

Curious, if you take a huge step back...what are you wanting to accomplish with reaction rolls? Is it a balance mechanic, a way to randomly generate content, or something else you want it to provide?

Quote from: FingerRod on May 08, 2023, 10:58:29 AM
Curious, if you take a huge step back...what are you wanting to accomplish with reaction rolls? Is it a balance mechanic, a way to randomly generate content, or something else you want it to provide?

My first motive for this thread was to give more variety to random encounters (using B/X).

I have just realized I had not been not using reaction rules in my current sandbox campaign, defaulting instead to "the NPCs will do the predictable thing according to their motivations and your respond to the PCs according to role-playing".

It works fine. But random encounters become a bit predictable and stale. For example, the PCs encountered some wolves, and I thought the wolves wouldn't approach a big group of humans for no reason. The PCs did nothing, so they walked away. Which was okay - but if I had rolled aggressive or friendly wolves, I could have rolled with it and have a more memorable encounter.

Likewise, when they met a group of clerics when looking for a temple, I made the clerics immediately friendly due to circumstances. But again, what is the worst suspicious of the PCs motives? Could be interesting, too.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 08, 2023, 03:03:30 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on May 08, 2023, 10:58:29 AM
Curious, if you take a huge step back...what are you wanting to accomplish with reaction rolls? Is it a balance mechanic, a way to randomly generate content, or something else you want it to provide?

My first motive for this thread was to give more variety to random encounters (using B/X).

I have just realized I had not been not using reaction rules in my current sandbox campaign, defaulting instead to "the NPCs will do the predictable thing according to their motivations and your respond to the PCs according to role-playing".

It works fine. But random encounters become a bit predictable and stale. For example, the PCs encountered some wolves, and I thought the wolves wouldn't approach a big group of humans for no reason. The PCs did nothing, so they walked away. Which was okay - but if I had rolled aggressive or friendly wolves, I could have rolled with it and have a more memorable encounter.

Likewise, when they met a group of clerics when looking for a temple, I made the clerics immediately friendly due to circumstances. But again, what is the worst suspicious of the PCs motives? Could be interesting, too.

Perfect. Thanks.

I've always admired B/X's use of Wandering Monsters. I use it to "fix" some of the issues I have running OD&D. The frequency, roll, and pursuit rules are perfect. The frequency RAW combined with the roll in OD&D are brutal.

Sounds like you are looking at it more for driving compelling play at the table. I do frequently tie my wandering encounters to the mapped ones, sometimes even changing the mapped ones based on what happens with the random ones. Keeps it interesting for me and makes sure I am prepping a dynamic area.