Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 30, 2021, 02:00:54 PM

Sure, they can't force anyone to play at his home as they wish.

Can you say the same about LGS/Conventions?

Just take a look at the X-Card style BS being implemented everywhere.

So I have to retreat to my basement while they dictate the culture around me and soon enough they will find a way to go mess with that too.

They ARE fascists, perfectly willing to have the state marry the corporations as long as the wind blows in their favor and to use all that power against anyone they deem an Istophobe.

See, and that's the problem right. Let's say for arguments sake, I volunteer to referee a fantasy game in 5th edition at some convention. The advertisement for my game specifically say something like....."this game is a dungeon crawl being ran in a Tolkien like world" So magic is uncommon but for a one shot con game I'll let people play any class they want, including all the magic using classes because the pc's are special.

Now, how specific do I have to be? What if I said "no wheelchair pc's allowed as this is a dungeon crawl". Is there a better way to word that so that I don't get thrown out of the con immediately. Because that's how I suspect it would go down. I suspect people are not adults and someone would tattle to convention staff and I'd get escorted from the premises.

Now if I said I'm running DCC at a con would anyone even expect to play a wheelchair bound pc? I know I'm harping on the wheelchair but it's a good example. Again, I suspect someone, because they're children, would want to sit at the table and gatekeep the game to make sure I wasn't an istaphobe. That's how much faith I do not have in people.

Maybe I'm being too negative. Idk

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 02:32:49 PM

...

Maybe I'm being too negative. Idk

Your concerns are legit. I see a few cons requiring the X-Card, but there are many MORE that do not. I've tried the questionaire method, and it didn't fly with my table. Here's how I handle it;

1. I bring pre-gens. Always. You pick from the pile. (so weird how there's not a wheelchair character in here...)
2. I explain the game is PG-13. Period. Anything not acceptable in a PG-13 movie will be "fade to black" at the table.
3. Let's agree to be adults and respect one another's time. Don't be edgy or controversial for attention's sake. The goal here is to have fun, not offend each other.
4. If something offends you - say something. We can quickly move to another scene and NOT disrupt the game. Let's trust one another's judgement and be respectful. A simple "nope" while getting eye-contact with me will shut a scene down without drama.

If the con insists on x-cards, I don't run games there. There are plenty of cool board games, card games, panels, etc. in most cons to make it worth it. If nothing piques my interest and I can't run/play RPGs without bullshit, I won't go. Not worth the drama. I imagine a year or two with little participation they will relax those requirements. I can't even imagine Organized Play adopting the x-card in any meaningful way (sure, it's mentioned in the books for both PF2e and 5e, but who's using it?)

Quote from: trechriron on September 30, 2021, 02:43:36 PM

Your concerns are legit. I see a few cons requiring the X-Card, but there are many MORE that do not. I've tried the questionaire method, and it didn't fly with my table. Here's how I handle it;

1. I bring pre-gens. Always. You pick from the pile. (so weird how there's not a wheelchair character in here...)
2. I explain the game is PG-13. Period. Anything not acceptable in a PG-13 movie will be "fade to black" at the table.
3. Let's agree to be adults and respect one another's time. Don't be edgy or controversial for attention's sake. The goal here is to have fun, not offend each other.
4. If something offends you - say something. We can quickly move to another scene and NOT disrupt the game. Let's trust one another's judgement and be respectful. A simple "nope" while getting eye-contact with me will shut a scene down without drama.

If the con insists on x-cards, I don't run games there. There are plenty of cool board games, card games, panels, etc. in most cons to make it worth it. If nothing piques my interest and I can't run/play RPGs without bullshit, I won't go. Not worth the drama. I imagine a year or two with little participation they will relax those requirements. I can't even imagine Organized Play adopting the x-card in any meaningful way (sure, it's mentioned in the books for both PF2e and 5e, but who's using it?)

See that is the way to do it. Thank you for the response.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.

I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.

Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool,  advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?

This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.

I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.

Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool,  advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?

This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.

Those rules are pretty fucking silly (I'm taking your word for how they work). I had thought the chair was just a cosmetic effect (as much as having legs vs a snake body is really a cosmetic effect as far as most game mechanics are concerned). I certainly wouldn't use those rules if I played that game, and the game I do play that has a "mobiltiy chair" starts it off as just allowing you to move like everyone else (and it is gear with no special protection from effects that target gear). Beyond that, if you want more features (such as integrated weapons), you have to pay for the upgrades and they are roughly equal to what other characters would pay for equivalent abilities in non-chair gear.

Still, I'm not seeing the rules you describe as being on a Pun-Pun level of game-breaking crazy.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.

Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool,  advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?

This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.

Yeah. Tis why I've gone back to earlier editions of the game. Where a permanency spell was needed for magic items. Loss of Con etc. etc. That's not to say a demi-god or a disabled wizard couldn't have made one. We got the Apparatus of Kwalish.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 03:57:22 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.

I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.

Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool,  advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?

This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.

Those rules are pretty fucking silly (I'm taking your word for how they work). I had thought the chair was just a cosmetic effect (as much as having legs vs a snake body is really a cosmetic effect as far as most game mechanics are concerned). I certainly wouldn't use those rules if I played that game, and the game I do play that has a "mobiltiy chair" starts it off as just allowing you to move like everyone else (and it is gear with no special protection from effects that target gear). Beyond that, if you want more features (such as integrated weapons), you have to pay for the upgrades and they are roughly equal to what other characters would pay for equivalent abilities in non-chair gear.

Still, I'm not seeing the rules you describe as being on a Pun-Pun level of game-breaking crazy.

Sigh. Think about it.

When people bring up 'Pun-Pun', 'diplomancer', or some other meme-worthy cringe build, your reaction should be like mine: groan, facepalm, throw things at person suggesting it, etc.

Instead, we're being subjected to a constant drivel of 'BUT MUH DIVERSITY' regarding the wheelchair. This thing should be mocked ceaselessly, and yet nobody wants to do so (outside present company). Why? Because 'ohnoez, that would be mean to disabled people' or some such bullshit.

THAT is why it's worse. It's broken bullshit and doesn't even have the good grace to admit it.

Also, the damn thing has no rules about tripping ground traps that I can find. I guess because tripwires and pressure plates make the author feel bad. I'm also still stunned that they tried to sell this thing as nominally indestructible (three critical hits in an encounter, seriously?!), knowing that even modern wheelchairs can get fucked up with normal wear and tear.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 03:57:55 PM
Yeah. Tis why I've gone back to earlier editions of the game. Where a permanency spell was needed for magic items. Loss of Con etc. etc. That's not to say a demi-god or a disabled wizard couldn't have made one. We got the Apparatus of Kwalish.

See, the Apparatus makes for an interesting major magic item or minor artifact (it's a legendary item in 5E).  It's RARE. You can't buy it from any fine merchant like you're going to Aurora's in the Realms.

If we is going "Magical Wheelchair" route- Tensers floating disk is still a level 1 spell FFS.

A magic item for a permanent one of those, is all you need. You can make a custom armchair to put on to yourself.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 04:06:41 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 03:57:22 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.

I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.

Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool,  advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?

This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.

Those rules are pretty fucking silly (I'm taking your word for how they work). I had thought the chair was just a cosmetic effect (as much as having legs vs a snake body is really a cosmetic effect as far as most game mechanics are concerned). I certainly wouldn't use those rules if I played that game, and the game I do play that has a "mobiltiy chair" starts it off as just allowing you to move like everyone else (and it is gear with no special protection from effects that target gear). Beyond that, if you want more features (such as integrated weapons), you have to pay for the upgrades and they are roughly equal to what other characters would pay for equivalent abilities in non-chair gear.

Still, I'm not seeing the rules you describe as being on a Pun-Pun level of game-breaking crazy.

Sigh. Think about it.

When people bring up 'Pun-Pun', 'diplomancer', or some other meme-worthy cringe build, your reaction should be like mine: groan, facepalm, throw things at person suggesting it, etc.

Instead, we're being subjected to a constant drivel of 'BUT MUH DIVERSITY' regarding the wheelchair. This thing should be mocked ceaselessly, and yet nobody wants to do so (outside present company). Why? Because 'ohnoez, that would be mean to disabled people' or some such bullshit.

THAT is why it's worse. It's broken bullshit and doesn't even have the good grace to admit it.

Also, the damn thing has no rules about tripping ground traps that I can find. I guess because tripwires and pressure plates make the author feel bad. I'm also still stunned that they tried to sell this thing as nominally indestructible (three critical hits in an encounter, seriously?!), knowing that even modern wheelchairs can get fucked up with normal wear and tear.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 03:57:55 PM
Yeah. Tis why I've gone back to earlier editions of the game. Where a permanency spell was needed for magic items. Loss of Con etc. etc. That's not to say a demi-god or a disabled wizard couldn't have made one. We got the Apparatus of Kwalish.

See, the Apparatus makes for an interesting major magic item or minor artifact (it's a legendary item in 5E).  It's RARE. You can't buy it from any fine merchant like you're going to Aurora's in the Realms.

So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 30, 2021, 04:12:26 PM
If we is going "Magical Wheelchair" route- Tensers floating disk is still a level 1 spell FFS.

A magic item for a permanent one of those, is all you need. You can make a custom armchair to put on to yourself.

I was thinking more "Fall-protection harness plus TF Disc" but the floating around with dangling legs would be a bit creepy. (Not to mention, the harness is uncomfortable in the bits.)

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 30, 2021, 04:12:26 PM
If we is going "Magical Wheelchair" route- Tensers floating disk is still a level 1 spell FFS.

A magic item for a permanent one of those, is all you need. You can make a custom armchair to put on to yourself.

But is permanence a 1st lvl spell on 5e? Does it come without the drawbacks from the good old days?

I guess no and that's why the author wants to have the OP bullshit chair.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...

I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.

I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.

Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool,  advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?

This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.

For not having any downsides, that's stupid good for 200gp. Half the price of a nonmagical Breastplate. You would be dumb not to equip the whole party with them.

Where's that meme of the SWAT team on Segway scooters?

If I was wheelchair-bound I would most certainly NOT to play a wheelchair-bound character.

The whole point of these sort of RPGs is to be something beyond what you really are. It could be a Lucas McCain-style character in a western, A Han Solo rogue in a space opera, or- in AD&D- a spell-slinging wizard, a mighty warrior like Conan or Dannus, maybe something odd like a pseudo-dragon scout...

It seems the politically-correct crowd misses the point.

What's more, who would need a wheelchair for any length of time in an AD&D world? There are spells that can grant wishes, regenerate lost limbs, restore sight, even resurrect the dead for crying out loud, so how can any adventurer with any experience and loot not be fully regenerated or cured?

I used to volunteer in a VA hospital for a time while my father was there. The idea of a wheelchair warrior in a dungeon with trap doors, pits, etc. is ludicrous. Imagine such a character trying to accompany Thorin & Company on their way through Mirkwood or climbing the Lonely Mountain. Good luck escaping a rampaging Smaug.


Incidentally, regarding an earlier post- funny how the left used to hate the corporations, but ever since the 1990's have been embracing them more and more as they become more "woke." Oh, certainly- no ulterior motives there.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 30, 2021, 04:12:26 PM
If we is going "Magical Wheelchair" route- Tensers floating disk is still a level 1 spell FFS.

A magic item for a permanent one of those, is all you need. You can make a custom armchair to put on to yourself.

See, Salvatore had those drow matron mothers riding on floating disks, and we've even used the spell to great effect. So sure, make the floating disk permanent.