Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 08:56:49 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...

And here is your problem.

We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."

Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"

Wait. What!?

I already pointed that to him, he doesn't seem to know that there's a difference between fantasy and the real world.

And also he seems to believe that there's tons of people that want to play a character just like themselves, with all of their disabilities and everything.

Must be why I play a Wizard in my current game, or why I've played and Elf, Dwarf, Warrior and none of them was near sighted, because I don't need glasses ... Oh Wait.

Greetings!

*Laughing* That's right my friend! What moron *wants* to play a disabled character?

I've had a player that had a character that lost his left arm in battle. We had a blacksmith forge some kind of weird iron claw-hand thing he got fixed to himself with. It had a iron claw, and a spike on it. He managed to survive, having lost h left arm. Not many players though want to play disabled characters. Severely disabled characters--like those stuck in wheelchairs--are simply retired. Time to roll up a new character! Same thing with characters that go insane, or become mutated. They are packed off to an asylum out in the countryside to live out their golden years, being doted on by nice, sweet nurses.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 10:31:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 08:56:49 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...

And here is your problem.

We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."

Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"

Wait. What!?

I already pointed that to him, he doesn't seem to know that there's a difference between fantasy and the real world.

And also he seems to believe that there's tons of people that want to play a character just like themselves, with all of their disabilities and everything.

Must be why I play a Wizard in my current game, or why I've played and Elf, Dwarf, Warrior and none of them was near sighted, because I don't need glasses ... Oh Wait.

Greetings!

*Laughing* That's right my friend! What moron *wants* to play a disabled character?

I've had a player that had a character that lost his left arm in battle. We had a blacksmith forge some kind of weird iron claw-hand thing he got fixed to himself with. It had a iron claw, and a spike on it. He managed to survive, having lost h left arm. Not many players though want to play disabled characters. Severely disabled characters--like those stuck in wheelchairs--are simply retired. Time to roll up a new character! Same thing with characters that go insane, or become mutated. They are packed off to an asylum out in the countryside to live out their golden years, being doted on by nice, sweet nurses.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Those who have bought into IdPol my friend.

Sadly there's some among the disabled, which is where the cries about cochlear implants come from. Soon selling those will get you branded as a bigot, because "erasure".

Me? I don't want to play a Maya/Spaniard mongrel with bad eyesight, I want to be someone else, Conan, Gandalf, The Shadow, Arsenio Lupin...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 11:05:47 PM

Me? I don't want to play a Maya/Spaniard mongrel with bad eyesight, I want to be someone else, Conan, Gandalf, The Shadow, Arsenio Lupin...

Quote from: palaeomerus on September 29, 2021, 11:34:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 11:05:47 PM

Me? I don't want to play a Maya/Spaniard mongrel with bad eyesight, I want to be someone else, Conan, Gandalf, The Shadow, Arsenio Lupin...

I LOLed.

I'm going to focus the prophetess in my vikings campaign, because I think it gets most at the question here.

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 10:11:22 PM
You explained that your party gladly and cheerfully brought along a weak and pathetic character--and presumably carried her load and coddled her in everything--cheerfully, because of her magic. Ok, good. I've known many groups that would have dropped her ass off at the town's poor house, and gone on to the tavern and recruited a different magical character that could keep up and not be so absolutely pathetic, helpless, and dependent for everyone around her to carry her. *Shrugs* So, that example doesn't really argue much in a Low-Magic world. I still think most parties in a low-magic world are always going to prefer and prioritize recruiting reasonably functional, self-sufficient characters that can move on their own, carry their own weight, and not be a constant burden on the rest of the party. I've played with many, many groups where the party expects everyone to be self-sufficient and reasonably skilled, functional, and able to do basic stuff. Can't measure up? They dump your sorry ass

Yes, Silksif was weak physically (STR 8, CON 10, SIZ 9) - but the point is that no one considered her a burden because she was very powerful magically. The group was more powerful and successful for having her than if they had, say, another of their best fighter Skallagrim. It's not coddling because objectively, they win more battles for having her on their side than almost any other person they could select. The game was low-magic in the sense that there were no fireballs or other flashy magic, but there were spirits and charms and monsters that all had concrete and major effects.

The question for the team is - how much more powerful is the team as a whole for having this person? Drawbacks will factor into that - whether physical, mental, or magical - but so will strengths.

Surely you can understand that some degree of magical power would make her an equal or even overpowered compared to the others. What if she was, say, the equivalent of a 15th level D&D wizard? Then I'd say she was the opposite of a burden - she'd be overpowered and too much for the party, regardless of her physical strength. At some point, there's a balance point where the magical ability compensates for physical weakness.

It is essentially wanting to play character with flas yet also without any disabilities associated with said flaws. Blind character with 20/20 vision or wanting to be in the flying tank equivalent of a wheelchair.

In my games the cities may be up to code. The enemy lairs let alone the wilderness outside of the same city good luck.

What gets me is one can see those speaking without any kind of disability speaking for someone like myself who has to wear glasses due to issues with my eyesight. Trying to pass it off as some kind of common cold. I hate wearing glasses and many in my situation probably feel the same way. If we could and somehow get 20/20 vision we could. Even if it meant stepping over those trying to stop us from getting it.

As for the Cochlear implants good luck banning those as anyone who tries will probably get counter sued into bankruptcy.

Quote from: sureshot on September 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
It is essentially wanting to play character with flas yet also without any disabilities associated with said flaws. Blind character with 20/20 vision or wanting to be in the flying tank equivalent of a wheelchair.

So what?

I like Daredevil. In game balance terms, he shouldn't get massive points for his blindness - but I don't see a problem with him existing as a fictional character, or with someone playing him in an RPG.

Quote from: sureshot on September 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
It is essentially wanting to play character with flas yet also without any disabilities associated with said flaws. Blind character with 20/20 vision or wanting to be in the flying tank equivalent of a wheelchair.

In my games the cities may be up to code. The enemy lairs let alone the wilderness outside of the same city good luck.

What gets me is one can see those speaking without any kind of disability speaking for someone like myself who has to wear glasses due to issues with my eyesight. Trying to pass it off as some kind of common cold. I hate wearing glasses and many in my situation probably feel the same way. If we could and somehow get 20/20 vision we could. Even if it meant stepping over those trying to stop us from getting it.

As for the Cochlear implants good luck banning those as anyone who tries will probably get counter sued into bankruptcy.

Correct. I can't remember if it was Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, but the book straight up states:

'If your disadvantage isn't really limiting, then it's not a disadvantage and isn't worth any points.'

So I've been thinking about this circular argument. There's not much we can do to stop the sjw's. There seems to always be a demographic that will champion the wheelchair of representation.

What I've decided for my fantasy rpg's I will take it on a case by case basis. I won't allow a wheelchair bound pc. The adventure/wilderness simply doesn't allow it. For the same reason I don't let people play centaur's, they're not a pc race in my games.

But as others have pointed out characters with missing arms/legs have been played for years. So the argument is alive just for the arguments sake.

The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 12:19:21 PM
I can't remember if it was Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, but the book straight up states:

'If your disadvantage isn't really limiting, then it's not a disadvantage and isn't worth any points.'

That's a Champions quote. It's in big bold type at the start of the Disadvantages section (from page 117 my 4th ed book),

QuoteA Disadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!

The intent here is that characters should be balanced. Daredevil shouldn't be more powerful than other characters because he's blind. He should be an equal to other characters. Even when I'm not playing Champions, I try to keep the spirit of this true in other games.

But the complaint that SHARK makes isn't that disabled characters are too powerful because they got free points for disadvantages that aren't really disadvantages. He's saying that they're too weak.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 12:29:22 PM
So I've been thinking about this circular argument. There's not much we can do to stop the sjw's. There seems to always be a demographic that will champion the wheelchair of representation.

What I've decided for my fantasy rpg's I will take it on a case by case basis. I won't allow a wheelchair bound pc. The adventure/wilderness simply doesn't allow it. For the same reason I don't let people play centaur's, they're not a pc race in my games.

But as others have pointed out characters with missing arms/legs have been played for years. So the argument is alive just for the arguments sake.

The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.

Don't give money to people who hate you.

They can masturbate to their ideas of diversity all they like, but under no circumstance should you help them.

Quote from: jhkim on September 30, 2021, 12:47:01 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 12:19:21 PM
I can't remember if it was Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, but the book straight up states:

'If your disadvantage isn't really limiting, then it's not a disadvantage and isn't worth any points.'

That's a Champions quote. It's in big bold type at the start of the Disadvantages section (from page 117 my 4th ed book),

QuoteA Disadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!

The intent here is that characters should be balanced. Daredevil shouldn't be more powerful than other characters because he's blind. He should be an equal to other characters. Even when I'm not playing Champions, I try to keep the spirit of this true in other games.

But the complaint that SHARK makes isn't that disabled characters are too powerful because they got free points for disadvantages that aren't really disadvantages. He's saying that they're too weak.

Which is amusing, since my contention is that the wheelchair is wholly unbalanced and does not belong in the game. I would sooner allow a diplomancer build or Pun-Pun than a combat wheelchair.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 12:29:22 PM
...
The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.

THIS sjdubs (hilarious) would never force you to do anything. It's anathema to my sense of liberty. I might debate this with you, but never would I tell you you HAVE to do what I'm saying. I might jokingly order you around, but I fully expect some snarky pushback. :-)

I also don't believe the prevalent movement arguing for wheelchaired adventurers is insisting that you use that in your game. They are ASTONISHED (I say) that you wouldn't. But that's hardly a rule you have to follow. There is a LOT of fascism coupled with hang-wringing going on across the InterTubes. People just want everyone else to shut up and do what they tell them to.

I don't think you're wrong for not wanting a wheelchaired adventurer in your game. For a typical high-fantasy romp through wilderness and dungeons? I would likely not allow it either. Maybe if it was a magic item using a Tensor's Floating Disc?

Here's the REAL issue. The fundamental problem underlying all this fascism and hand-wringing.

People have become terribly fucking selfish. To the point that NOTHING matters outside the 1cm airspace around them.

If you are going to play a character bound to a wheelchair, have you asked the table if they are willing to play in adventures limited by your choice? Does anyone else's' opinion matter? Isn't this supposed to be a group activity?

I would likely discuss the options, explain the consequences of those choices, and then let the group weigh in. If everyone is comfortable with it, and I can imagine cool adventures that accommodate it, then I would say "yes".

In Aliens 4, there was a cool engineer dude in a wheelchair with the hidden "some assembly required" shotgun. It DID affect the entire group however. They felt compelled to keep their companion with them despite the obstacles. It served as a great moral dilemma and increased the drama. So, it's not always going to be a "no". Also, not always a "yes".

I understand that Cancel Culture, Political Correctness, Special Snowflake Syndrome has effectively ruined our ability to communicate or even relate to one another. And I hate that. I don't like any of that shit. I may be liberal, but I'm NOT a fascist and I respect my conservative friends opinions.

I just wish the crowd HERE would calm down. Notice I don't post on TBP. This is my internet home for RPGs. Because I can say what I want and interact with people who can say what they want. Funny how freedom actually works. The truth is - all the "woke" games hardly impact the breadth of amazing games available out there. Just because some fascist insists that you can't play their game doesn't mean you can't buy it and play it. Them is just words.

Find the RPGs you love. Play them. Talk about them. Stop worrying about what the "popular kids" are doing and find your joy in the RPG space. In other words - Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.

Quote from: trechriron on September 30, 2021, 01:31:58 PMStuff

While I disagree with your terminology of Fascism (Totalitarianism is a better fit), I think I agree with everything you say. If you can respect other peoples choice and keep others in mind and don't demand the world to adapt to you, then its generally reasonable by me.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 01:15:40 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 12:29:22 PM
So I've been thinking about this circular argument. There's not much we can do to stop the sjw's. There seems to always be a demographic that will champion the wheelchair of representation.

What I've decided for my fantasy rpg's I will take it on a case by case basis. I won't allow a wheelchair bound pc. The adventure/wilderness simply doesn't allow it. For the same reason I don't let people play centaur's, they're not a pc race in my games.

But as others have pointed out characters with missing arms/legs have been played for years. So the argument is alive just for the arguments sake.

The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.

Don't give money to people who hate you.

They can masturbate to their ideas of diversity all they like, but under no circumstance should you help them.

Quote from: jhkim on September 30, 2021, 12:47:01 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 12:19:21 PM
I can't remember if it was Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, but the book straight up states:

'If your disadvantage isn't really limiting, then it's not a disadvantage and isn't worth any points.'

That's a Champions quote. It's in big bold type at the start of the Disadvantages section (from page 117 my 4th ed book),

QuoteA Disadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!

The intent here is that characters should be balanced. Daredevil shouldn't be more powerful than other characters because he's blind. He should be an equal to other characters. Even when I'm not playing Champions, I try to keep the spirit of this true in other games.

But the complaint that SHARK makes isn't that disabled characters are too powerful because they got free points for disadvantages that aren't really disadvantages. He's saying that they're too weak.

Which is amusing, since my contention is that the wheelchair is wholly unbalanced and does not belong in the game. I would sooner allow a diplomancer build or Pun-Pun than a combat wheelchair.

Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.

Quote from: trechriron on September 30, 2021, 01:31:58 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 12:29:22 PM
...
The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.

THIS sjdubs (hilarious) would never force you to do anything. It's anathema to my sense of liberty. I might debate this with you, but never would I tell you you HAVE to do what I'm saying. I might jokingly order you around, but I fully expect some snarky pushback. :-)

I also don't believe the prevalent movement arguing for wheelchaired adventurers is insisting that you use that in your game. They are ASTONISHED (I say) that you wouldn't. But that's hardly a rule you have to follow. There is a LOT of fascism coupled with hang-wringing going on across the InterTubes. People just want everyone else to shut up and do what they tell them to.

I don't think you're wrong for not wanting a wheelchaired adventurer in your game. For a typical high-fantasy romp through wilderness and dungeons? I would likely not allow it either. Maybe if it was a magic item using a Tensor's Floating Disc?

Here's the REAL issue. The fundamental problem underlying all this fascism and hand-wringing.

People have become terribly fucking selfish. To the point that NOTHING matters outside the 1cm airspace around them.

If you are going to play a character bound to a wheelchair, have you asked the table if they are willing to play in adventures limited by your choice? Does anyone else's' opinion matter? Isn't this supposed to be a group activity?

I would likely discuss the options, explain the consequences of those choices, and then let the group weigh in. If everyone is comfortable with it, and I can imagine cool adventures that accommodate it, then I would say "yes".

In Aliens 4, there was a cool engineer dude in a wheelchair with the hidden "some assembly required" shotgun. It DID affect the entire group however. They felt compelled to keep their companion with them despite the obstacles. It served as a great moral dilemma and increased the drama. So, it's not always going to be a "no". Also, not always a "yes".

I understand that Cancel Culture, Political Correctness, Special Snowflake Syndrome has effectively ruined our ability to communicate or even relate to one another. And I hate that. I don't like any of that shit. I may be liberal, but I'm NOT a fascist and I respect my conservative friends opinions.

I just wish the crowd HERE would calm down. Notice I don't post on TBP. This is my internet home for RPGs. Because I can say what I want and interact with people who can say what they want. Funny how freedom actually works. The truth is - all the "woke" games hardly impact the breadth of amazing games available out there. Just because some fascist insists that you can't play their game doesn't mean you can't buy it and play it. Them is just words.

Find the RPGs you love. Play them. Talk about them. Stop worrying about what the "popular kids" are doing and find your joy in the RPG space. In other words - Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.

Sure, they can't force anyone to play at his home as they wish.

Can you say the same about LGS/Conventions?

Just take a look at the X-Card style BS being implemented everywhere.

So I have to retreat to my basement while they dictate the culture around me and soon enough they will find a way to go mess with that too.

They ARE fascists, perfectly willing to have the state marry the corporations as long as the wind blows in their favor and to use all that power against anyone they deem an Istophobe.