Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
[looks up from coffee]

So, have we figured out how to stop the D&D SJWs? As it related to the RPG space?

Has anyone suggested that you can't STOP us? Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't? I think the RPG list of woke companies is stupid BUT there's a silver lining here -- you can use that list to avoid shit you don't like or want to support and (maybe) have some fun playing the games you do want to support? You like having fun still, yes?

Or this more a chest-thumping, tiki-torch wielding, angry man-child tantrum of anguish? If so, I'm here to listen. That's what friends are for.

  Tiki torches?  Is the FBI here?  I thought they were FBI issued.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 06:11:43 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PMliterally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails

Ah, dungeons are really well known for their ramps and rails.

I had one Dwarven city in my campaign that took health and safety to a particular extreme.  Even the bad guy Dwarves had dungeons that were suitable for all the demographics.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 01:37:35 PM

Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.

No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I mean this tells me you've probably never had any meaningful interaction with a wheelchair bound individual in your life if you see wheelchair using individuals as being "Too crippled in independent mobility". Ever heard murderball? Jesus Christ dude, aren't you a former Marine? The number of Soldiers from the war on terror who've lost multiple limbs, legs included and are just as mobile as anyone else.

That kind of attitude is the worst kind to encounter in this hobby. First, you're blatantly treating wheelchair bound people as effectively being children incapable of even living on their own, and next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."

I'll pull back here and say, your table, your rules. I fully support that, but I think yourself and a lot of other people in this thread need to actually take a look at what people who are in wheelchairs or missing their limbs are truly capable of...and that's the point of being a Player Character, you're supposed to be an extraordinary person to begin with.

Greetings!

People in wheelchairs are in fact, disabled. They are not as mobile and efficient in a vast variety of mobility issues and dynamics, also a fact.

In regards to the game, it seems to me that a disabled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair would simply not be able to keep up and function efficiently with the rest of the normal player characters, traveling across the wilderness, and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Struggling through narrow ledge-like pathways, crawling up and down chasms, crawling through low-ceilinged overhead roofs, getting in and out of pits, rappelling down sheer chasm walls, scaling up and down ancient stairways, climbing up ropes, and negotiating their passage along wobbling rope bridges--as well as swimming across swift-flowing rivers, and making their way through treacherous, confined sewer tunnels.

To believe that disabled people in wheelchairs are just as mobile and efficient as a normal person is delusional.

As I have stated several times now, in a High Magic campaign, any such disabled character stuck in a wheelchair would most likely be healed, so the whole condition of being disbled in a wheelchair is moot. In a Low-Magic campaign--reviewing the numerous challenges I mentioned--and there are many, many more problems dealing with having a disabled character in a wheelchair attempting to be a functioning member of the adventuring party--that such a disabled character would likely suffer an early and swift death, on the count of them being disabled, slow, and simply not as mobile and functional. Beyond that, any smart party of adventurers would seek to recruit healthy, strong, normal adventurers to be members of their party, instead of always trying to carry and coddle a disabled character stuck in a wheelchir that can't keep up, can't carry their load, and simply can't function effectively in the field and in dungeons. So, there isn't much point or virtue in seeking to recruit or accepting a disabled character stuck in a wheelchair in such a dark, grim, and dangerous world.

Just like in the real world, the Marine Corps doesn't keep disabled warriors in the field, with infantry, for example. They provide them with a medical discharge from the service--because they are disabled, and not able to function efficiently.

The numerous reasons why someone disabled in a wheelchair can't possibly function efficently in a Marine Infantry Squad are much of the same reasons that wanting to include a disabled character in a wheelchair in an adventuring group is rediculous and stupid. It is absurd and delusional.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:12:07 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:59:58 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.

I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.

Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.

Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.

And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM

How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.

Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI 

By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.

You totally missed the point even after acknowledging it.

You keep conflating (at this point I think intentionally so) real people with make believe characters.

YOU are the one saying we don't think real people this or that, we haven't made that claim as far as I know.

WE are talking fantasy and immersion breaking stuff (for us) like the +10 combat wheelchair, and we are saying there's lots of better options already in the game.

As for your fantasy that most disabled people don't want to be "fixed" well it's just that, a fantasy, we know because choclear implants are still made, prosthetic limbs are still made and R&D is constant in ways to allow the blind to see.

BECAUSE there's a market for that.

Just like in a fantasy world where you can get back your limbs most (I dare say 100%) people would choose to. Only exception being if you can get something "better" like magical Eberron prosthetic limbs or better sight than normal for your species.

Now please do keep beating up your strawman I'm sure you'll kill it.

You are literally mis-representing my argument. Nowhere did I say "All Differently abled people don't want to be fixed" I said there are lots of differently abled people who don't believe they are broken and don't want to be "Fixed". If you have a problem with that, and me literally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails, and showing how he could easily navigate a dunegon in it... Then you are being obstinate and denying reality because you "Just want to be right."

Oh, I'm sure he could totally hold his pace with the non disabled members of the party, totally. Even going up a mountain side, scalling a wall or crawling on a confined space where everybody had to leave their backpacks behind, he would be able to take his wheelchair because Dragons.

So you're not saying all? good thing neither did I claim you did then.

And this is when I call you an SJW because you're just as dishonest as all of them.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Excellent points, my friend!

This whole obsession with some of these people in wanting to force-feed disabled characters stuck in fucking wheelchairs is just mind-boggling. Like Pundit has said though, it is just more of the fucking SJW bullshit going down the checklist of the Oppression Olympics, to use disabled people as yet another oppressed minority group that they can whine and bitch about and have cock-sucking struggle-sessions over how everyone else needs to be less bigoted and more open minded and accepting of "Diversity".

I always remember that SJW's are, deep down, retarded social misfits that are bitter and resentful towards everyone else in the world--especially those people that are more talented, more skilled, better looking, and more professionally and financially successful than they are. SJW's are all about destroying meritocracy, all about hating and tearing down the normal, the beautiful, and the excellent--so they can exalt and wallow in mediocrity, bubble-wrapped in their own delusional thinking.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
As I have stated several times now, in a High Magic campaign, any such disabled character stuck in a wheelchair would most likely be healed, so the whole condition of being disbled in a wheelchair is moot.

You failed to respond, though, when I pointed out that some high-magic worlds - like Eberron - don't have easy access to healing magic. That's why Eberron has things like magic prosthetics even when the prosthetic is no better than the original. Eberron is a steampunk world with lots of arcane gadgets, but very little divine magic.

Even in a different setting with healing magic, though, it's still possible to have reasons why the disability can't or won't be healed. For example, healing magic might not fix congenital conditions. Also, there could be special curses or anti-healing that prevent a disability from being cured. Even aside from magic, the character might have a specific reason why they don't want healing - like if they took a vow for some reason to accept the challenge.

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
In a Low-Magic campaign--reviewing the numerous challenges I mentioned--and there are many, many more problems dealing with having a disabled character in a wheelchair attempting to be a functioning member of the adventuring party--that such a disabled character would likely suffer an early and swift death, on the count of them being disabled, slow, and simply not as mobile and functional. Beyond that, any smart party of adventurers would seek to recruit healthy, strong, normal adventurers to be members of their party

And again, you failed to respond to my example of this - that in a low-magic game, a rare magical character could be especially valued and wanted along for reasons other than their health. I brought up the prophetess PC in my vikings game, who was not disabled - but she was a non-combatant who the rest of the warriors gladly brought along for her magical power. They would still have done so even if she was an elderly grandmother who couldn't walk.

Low-magic isn't the same as no-magic.

I do think that in a no-magic historical setting, that a wheelchair-using character is probably not suitable as a PC.

I think someone should rewrite the Illiad, with Achilles as a paraplegic in a wheelchair.

Quote from: Pat on September 29, 2021, 07:54:16 PM
I think someone should rewrite the Illiad, with Achilles as a paraplegic in a wheelchair.

"Lo, I remember ten years ago when the war began and Achilles was impaled by a spear because his wheelchair got stuck in the sand. That's when I decided this woke crew was a bunch of losers and went promptly home to my faithful wife and son before I could accidentally annoy any fickle gods." - Odysseus.

The End.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...

And here is your problem.

We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."

Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"

Wait. What!?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:12:15 PM
...two faced and this ideology is key to your sense of superiority over others.
...

There is literally NOTHING more key to my sense of superiority over others -- than my sense of superiority over others.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...

And here is your problem.

We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."

Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"

Wait. What!?

I already pointed that to him, he doesn't seem to know that there's a difference between fantasy and the real world.

And also he seems to believe that there's tons of people that want to play a character just like themselves, with all of their disabilities and everything.

Must be why I play a Wizard in my current game, or why I've played and Elf, Dwarf, Warrior and none of them was near sighted, because I don't need glasses ... Oh Wait.

Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 08:46:57 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:12:15 PM
...two faced and this ideology is key to your sense of superiority over others.
...

There is literally NOTHING more key to my sense of superiority over others -- than my sense of superiority over others.

That and your very handsome White Jack Black avatar.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...

And here is your problem.

We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."

Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"

Wait. What!?

I'm reminded of the character in the Guardians of the Flame novels who was disabled and in a wheelchair and played RPGs partly as an escape from his "real life" condition.
We've come full circle that disability must be accomadated in fiction in order to validate players. I reject that idea.
If someone wants to play a character in a wheelchair in an RPG game, they are going to have to deal with the concept that a person is in a wheelchair for a reason, and that reason is because their goddamn legs don't work. Either well or at all. And that mobility issue is an issue. Not something to be dismissed so they can roll around a dungeon with no concern about how being in a wheelchair might impact a character's ability to do things.

Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 08:46:57 PMThere is literally NOTHING more key to my sense of superiority over others -- than my sense of superiority over others.

You have me beat. For some the ideology grants them a sense of superiority, for others, its their sense of superiority that attracts them to the movement.

Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2021, 07:53:12 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
As I have stated several times now, in a High Magic campaign, any such disabled character stuck in a wheelchair would most likely be healed, so the whole condition of being disbled in a wheelchair is moot.

You failed to respond, though, when I pointed out that some high-magic worlds - like Eberron - don't have easy access to healing magic. That's why Eberron has things like magic prosthetics even when the prosthetic is no better than the original. Eberron is a steampunk world with lots of arcane gadgets, but very little divine magic.

Even in a different setting with healing magic, though, it's still possible to have reasons why the disability can't or won't be healed. For example, healing magic might not fix congenital conditions. Also, there could be special curses or anti-healing that prevent a disability from being cured. Even aside from magic, the character might have a specific reason why they don't want healing - like if they took a vow for some reason to accept the challenge.

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
In a Low-Magic campaign--reviewing the numerous challenges I mentioned--and there are many, many more problems dealing with having a disabled character in a wheelchair attempting to be a functioning member of the adventuring party--that such a disabled character would likely suffer an early and swift death, on the count of them being disabled, slow, and simply not as mobile and functional. Beyond that, any smart party of adventurers would seek to recruit healthy, strong, normal adventurers to be members of their party

And again, you failed to respond to my example of this - that in a low-magic game, a rare magical character could be especially valued and wanted along for reasons other than their health. I brought up the prophetess PC in my vikings game, who was not disabled - but she was a non-combatant who the rest of the warriors gladly brought along for her magical power. They would still have done so even if she was an elderly grandmother who couldn't walk.

Low-magic isn't the same as no-magic.

I do think that in a no-magic historical setting, that a wheelchair-using character is probably not suitable as a PC.

Greetings!

Yes, Jhkim, I didn't respond to your examples because they are arguing from an extreme, or an edge case. Eberron is a *Steampunk* setting--clearly not a more medieval world that most D&D campaigns are like. Second of all--it's irrelevant. The magic in the basic rules set out in the Player's Handbook makes both of your edge cases irrelevant. The typicalD&D campaign is going to embrace the standard magic spells in the Player's Handbook--hence, in most D&D games--that are standard rules games--as well as most set in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, not to mention the average D&D campaign that is similarly high magic--such a disability as being stuck in a wheelchair is a laughably simple issue to deal with.

Logically, a character can be roasted by dragonfire, and chomped on and swallowed whole by a dragon or any other numerous creatures--chewed and shredded, scourged with stomach acid--and be swiftly healed and made whole just fine.

But some fucker in a wheelchair, no, no, the magic can't handle that!

The argument is absurd.

Next, in your Low-Magic example, well, she was a prophetess, with uber magical powers. Great. She still wasn't stuck in a fucking wheelchair. I'd think that is obvious. She doesn't have the vast array of challenges and actual, enormous barriers to basic movement, basic mobility, that someone stuck in a wheelchair has. The example is like apples and oranges.

Beyond that, well, yeah, even someone not otherwise disabled, but pathetic and weak can be rejected and probably should be by an ambitious party wanting to adventure. Pathetic, weak characters don't make good companions, regardless of how many super-special some people want their gimped character to be.

I've done an exercise before--I checked weight of items for adventuring in the PHB, and any character with pretty much less than a 12 strength can stay the fuck home. They can barely wear a robe, backpack, bedroll, some rations, rope and water-skin. Beyond that they start suffering movement penalties and so on. I was dismayed by how exactly pathetic a Wizard with a 10 strength really is. Point being, being able to carry your own gear, have space for treasure, nd being able to perform common physical tasks like riding, climbing, crawling, swimming, jumping over stuff, and so on, are vitally important skills and maneuvers--even for otherwise normal but weak characters. If they are really that weak and pathetic, they too are going to suffer from a cascade of problems throughout the campaign.

You explained that your party gladly and cheerfully brought along a weak and pathetic character--and presumably carried her load and coddled her in everything--cheerfully, because of her magic. Ok, good. I've known many groups that would have dropped her ass off at the town's poor house, and gone on to the tavern and recruited a different magical character that could keep up and not be so absolutely pathetic, helpless, and dependent for everyone around her to carry her. *Shrugs* So, that example doesn't really argue much in a Low-Magic world. I still think most parties in a low-magic world are always going to prefer and prioritize recruiting reasonably functional, self-sufficient characters that can move on their own, carry their own weight, and not be a constant burden on the rest of the party. I've played with many, many groups where the party expects everyone to be self-sufficient and reasonably skilled, functional, and able to do basic stuff. Can't measure up? They dump your sorry ass and then look at me--the DM--and say, "Fuck them! We need some new people that aren't fucking pussies! DM, we hang out in the local tavern, and seek to recruit some new members to the group! That Warlock and Rogue we had in the last number of sessions were fucking retarded! New people better have their shit together!" I've watched the majority of the members of such groups argue loudly for basically competent characters. They aren't keen on coddling helpless weaklings, regardless of whatever Mary Sue special bells and whistles you try and dress them up with.

Thus, I didn't find your Low-Magic campaign argument--your example--especially compelling or persuasive, considering my own experience with numerous game groups.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...

And here is your problem.

We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."

Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"

Wait. What!?

Greetings!

Exactly, Jaeger!

Now I'm such a rude, unwelcoming bastard to disabled players!

I suppose a player could attempt to play a disabled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair in my campaign--but, just like the real world that is harsh and brutal, they wouldn't last long. Simply because they CAN'T KEEP THE FUCK UP. That's the harsh truth these people are delusional and in denial about. In the game world, crawling into sewers and dungeons, and fighting off trp and terrible monsters...yeah, the person stuck in a fucking wheelchair would likely be the first to get eaten and die. WHY?

Because bringing someone that is in a wheelchair into a dungeon to fight monsters and struggle through a harsh environment is just stupid, that's why.

And if the actual player didn't like it, and acted like a bitch, *shrugs* Sorry, the world doesn't coddle you and instantly become "wheelchair accessible" just because you are stupid enough to insist on bringing a fucking disabled character into the group that is crippled by being stuck in a fucking wheelchair. Such wheelchair characters need to be on the porch fishing and staying safe and away from danger--not trying to run with the big dogs down harsh dungeons crawling through caves and fighting monsters.

*laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK