Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 01:37:35 PM

Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.

No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I mean this tells me you've probably never had any meaningful interaction with a wheelchair bound individual in your life if you see wheelchair using individuals as being "Too crippled in independent mobility". Ever heard murderball? Jesus Christ dude, aren't you a former Marine? The number of Soldiers from the war on terror who've lost multiple limbs, legs included and are just as mobile as anyone else.

That kind of attitude is the worst kind to encounter in this hobby. First, you're blatantly treating wheelchair bound people as effectively being children incapable of even living on their own, and next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."

I'll pull back here and say, your table, your rules. I fully support that, but I think yourself and a lot of other people in this thread need to actually take a look at what people who are in wheelchairs or missing their limbs are truly capable of...and that's the point of being a Player Character, you're supposed to be an extraordinary person to begin with.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 01:37:35 PM

Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.

No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I mean this tells me you've probably never had any meaningful interaction with a wheelchair bound individual in your life if you see wheelchair using individuals as being "Too crippled in independent mobility". Ever heard murderball? Jesus Christ dude, aren't you a former Marine? The number of Soldiers from the war on terror who've lost multiple limbs, legs included and are just as mobile as anyone else.

That kind of attitude is the worst kind to encounter in this hobby. First, you're blatantly treating wheelchair bound people as effectively being children incapable of even living on their own, and next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."

I'll pull back here and say, your table, your rules. I fully support that, but I think yourself and a lot of other people in this thread need to actually take a look at what people who are in wheelchairs or missing their limbs are truly capable of...and that's the point of being a Player Character, you're supposed to be an extraordinary person to begin with.

How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.

I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.

Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.

I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.

Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.

Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.

And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM

How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.

Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI 

By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 29, 2021, 05:17:06 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 29, 2021, 05:14:29 PM

Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't?

Dont know if you have seen the list which helps you to find good games?

Might be worth checking out.

Don't know if you read the second paragraph of the post you quoted where he addressed that list.

Might be worth checking out.

Thanks for the advise.  Sounds like something that might be worth checking out!

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PMYeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.

And I don't care how they feel. Prioritizing feelings over reality is I think one of the problems of the modern era.
Only in a time as opulent and as decadent as ours, is calling a disability; a disability, a problem.
Disability isn't even some callous insult. Its purely a descriptive term. You can't escape reality by constantly changing terms to escape it.

And play Xavier, or a Wizard on a Tensers disk or whatever. But to take place in a fantasy world where wounds can trivially be fixed, and demand that instead that world has wheelchair access is not imagination or escapism. Its delusion.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.

I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.

Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.

Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.

And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM

How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.

Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI 

By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.

You totally missed the point even after acknowledging it.

You keep conflating (at this point I think intentionally so) real people with make believe characters.

YOU are the one saying we don't think real people this or that, we haven't made that claim as far as I know.

WE are talking fantasy and immersion breaking stuff (for us) like the +10 combat wheelchair, and we are saying there's lots of better options already in the game.

As for your fantasy that most disabled people don't want to be "fixed" well it's just that, a fantasy, we know because choclear implants are still made, prosthetic limbs are still made and R&D is constant in ways to allow the blind to see.

BECAUSE there's a market for that.

Just like in a fantasy world where you can get back your limbs most (I dare say 100%) people would choose to. Only exception being if you can get something "better" like magical Eberron prosthetic limbs or better sight than normal for your species.

Now please do keep beating up your strawman I'm sure you'll kill it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:59:58 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.

I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.

Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.

Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.

And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM

How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.

Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI 

By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.

You totally missed the point even after acknowledging it.

You keep conflating (at this point I think intentionally so) real people with make believe characters.

YOU are the one saying we don't think real people this or that, we haven't made that claim as far as I know.

WE are talking fantasy and immersion breaking stuff (for us) like the +10 combat wheelchair, and we are saying there's lots of better options already in the game.

As for your fantasy that most disabled people don't want to be "fixed" well it's just that, a fantasy, we know because choclear implants are still made, prosthetic limbs are still made and R&D is constant in ways to allow the blind to see.

BECAUSE there's a market for that.

Just like in a fantasy world where you can get back your limbs most (I dare say 100%) people would choose to. Only exception being if you can get something "better" like magical Eberron prosthetic limbs or better sight than normal for your species.

Now please do keep beating up your strawman I'm sure you'll kill it.

You are literally mis-representing my argument. Nowhere did I say "All Differently abled people don't want to be fixed" I said there are lots of differently abled people who don't believe they are broken and don't want to be "Fixed". If you have a problem with that, and me literally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails, and showing how he could easily navigate a dunegon in it... Then you are being obstinate and denying reality because you "Just want to be right."

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PMliterally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails

Ah, dungeons are really well known for their ramps and rails.
That dude is one badass muthafucka, and deserves all the awards, but the first 10 seconds of the video is him slowly dragging himself and his wheelchair up a set of stairs.

Id wager if you asked him if he could navigate tight enclosed environments with difficult terrain and tons of slippery stairs (in the dark), he would say no, because he looks like a smart guy.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:59:58 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.

I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.

Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.

Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.

And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM

How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.

Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI 

By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.

You totally missed the point even after acknowledging it.

You keep conflating (at this point I think intentionally so) real people with make believe characters.

YOU are the one saying we don't think real people this or that, we haven't made that claim as far as I know.

WE are talking fantasy and immersion breaking stuff (for us) like the +10 combat wheelchair, and we are saying there's lots of better options already in the game.

As for your fantasy that most disabled people don't want to be "fixed" well it's just that, a fantasy, we know because choclear implants are still made, prosthetic limbs are still made and R&D is constant in ways to allow the blind to see.

BECAUSE there's a market for that.

Just like in a fantasy world where you can get back your limbs most (I dare say 100%) people would choose to. Only exception being if you can get something "better" like magical Eberron prosthetic limbs or better sight than normal for your species.

Now please do keep beating up your strawman I'm sure you'll kill it.

You are literally mis-representing my argument. Nowhere did I say "All Differently abled people don't want to be fixed" I said there are lots of differently abled people who don't believe they are broken and don't want to be "Fixed". If you have a problem with that, and me literally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails, and showing how he could easily navigate a dunegon in it... Then you are being obstinate and denying reality because you "Just want to be right."

Oh, I'm sure he could totally hold his pace with the non disabled members of the party, totally. Even going up a mountain side, scalling a wall or crawling on a confined space where everybody had to leave their backpacks behind, he would be able to take his wheelchair because Dragons.

So you're not saying all? good thing neither did I claim you did then.

And this is when I call you an SJW because you're just as dishonest as all of them.

Oops. Wrong field. Never mind. Too many tabs open and not enough brain to go around.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:12:07 PM

Oh, I'm sure he could totally hold his pace with the non disabled members of the party, totally. Even going up a mountain side, scalling a wall or crawling on a confined space where everybody had to leave their backpacks behind, he would be able to take his wheelchair because Dragons.

So you're not saying all? good thing neither did I claim you did then.

And this is when I call you an SJW because you're just as dishonest as all of them.

Right man, purity spiral because I think it's fucking dumb wheelchairs in D&D bother you so much. That makes me an SJW. You are literally acting like the worst progressives right now. Keep being a reactionary though. 

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 06:11:43 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PMliterally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails

Ah, dungeons are really well known for their ramps and rails.
That dude is one badass muthafucka, and deserves all the awards, but the first 10 seconds of the video is him slowly dragging himself and his wheelchair up a set of stairs.

Id wager if you asked him if he could navigate tight enclosed environments with difficult terrain and tons of slippery stairs (in the dark), he would say no, because he looks like a smart guy.

What!? Your dungeons don't have rails, ramps and elevators ? Next you'll tell me they're not always wide enough for a wheelchair to pass trhu.

Tsk, tsk I think you must be one of those istophobes I keep hearing post here.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 01:37:35 PM

Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.

No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I mean this tells me you've probably never had any meaningful interaction with a wheelchair bound individual in your life if you see wheelchair using individuals as being "Too crippled in independent mobility". Ever heard murderball? Jesus Christ dude, aren't you a former Marine? The number of Soldiers from the war on terror who've lost multiple limbs, legs included and are just as mobile as anyone else.

That kind of attitude is the worst kind to encounter in this hobby. First, you're blatantly treating wheelchair bound people as effectively being children incapable of even living on their own, and next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.

Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."

I'll pull back here and say, your table, your rules. I fully support that, but I think yourself and a lot of other people in this thread need to actually take a look at what people who are in wheelchairs or missing their limbs are truly capable of...and that's the point of being a Player Character, you're supposed to be an extraordinary person to begin with.

How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?

  *Stairs*  The wheelchair warrior's ONE weakness.....

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:14:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:12:07 PM

Oh, I'm sure he could totally hold his pace with the non disabled members of the party, totally. Even going up a mountain side, scalling a wall or crawling on a confined space where everybody had to leave their backpacks behind, he would be able to take his wheelchair because Dragons.

So you're not saying all? good thing neither did I claim you did then.

And this is when I call you an SJW because you're just as dishonest as all of them.

Right man, purity spiral because I think it's fucking dumb wheelchairs in D&D bother you so much. That makes me an SJW. You are literally acting like the worst progressives right now. Keep being a reactionary though. 

Saying X is a dumb idea =/= being bothered by X.

To be a reactionary one needs, first and foremost, be part of the establishment, SJWs ARE the establishment, I'm a revolutionary.