Quote from: Ocule on September 26, 2021, 08:10:54 PM


No one is saying they're not allowed just that the concept is fucking retarded and that it doesn't make sense in the implied setting of dnd. Would be fine in a low magic intrigue heavy game. It comes off as the player who wants to be blind but can also see better than everyone else like daredevil or even putting zatoichi to shame

D&D's official setting is Forgotten Realms, which is high fantasy as fuck and has the built in D&D rules of magic as part of it's setting. So what you just said is complete and total bullshit. Playing characters that are blind but see better than everyone else, and who are bad ass warriors from the backs of wheelchairs is perfectly in line with everything 5th edition has. You may not like it, but that's the official truth.

So try again your argument is invalid.

Quote from: SHARK on September 26, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
My line of reasoning doesn't make sense? What is confusing?

In a high-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They would be magically healed, and thus be normal, and not crippled and be stuck in a ridiculous wheelchair.

In a low-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair is a definite and ridiculous liability to the rest of the party, presumably involved in dangerous wilderness journeys and adventures into subterranean dungeons, all of which represents a cascading series of never-ending physical and mobility challenges on a crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. Furthermore, socially and operationally, such a party of adventurers would clearly be better served by simply recruiting a normal, healthy character.

(1) High-magic doesn't necessarily mean easy healing. For example, Eberron has a lot of arcane magic and enchantments, but it has less healing than other D&D worlds. This is on healing and resurrection in Eberron,

QuoteNo matter how much gold you throw at the clergy, the fact of the matter is that most NPC priests have no spellcasting ability, but instead have proficiency in History, Religion, and perhaps Performance for delivering particularly effective sermons. NPCs capable of casting divine magic are rare, and even if you do find one, none of them are in the habit of selling miracles.

Source: https://eberron-dnd5e.obsidianportal.com/adventure-log/healing-resurrection-in-eberron

So it depends on the specifics of the high-magic world.

(2) In a low-magic world, what little magic there is can be all the more valuable because of its rarity. I already gave the example of the prophetess Silksif in my vikings game -- which was definitely low magic. She was a poor fighter and athlete, and would otherwise have been a liability on any war mission - but her magical ability was invaluable to the others who had no magic. The same logic would apply to a low-magic D&D world.

--------

These are pretty obvious to me in non-D&D games. I think the challenge in D&D games is that there is no concept of disadvantages or other special features for characters. So it goes against the standard rules to have a character who has any sort of outstanding drawback. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to have house rules to allow such.

The trick is that a disadvantage like missing a limb or being paraplegic needs to be balanced with a corresponding advantage. Depending on how the balancing is done, the character could be too powerful, or not powerful enough.

I haven't done this in any of my D&D games - but in other game systems, having characters with disadvantages of various sorts has meant a lot of cool gaming.

I have noticed a little confusion with people imagining that a character is in a wheelchair because they are physically unable to walk.

Quote from: jhkim on September 26, 2021, 08:42:08 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 26, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
My line of reasoning doesn't make sense? What is confusing?

In a high-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They would be magically healed, and thus be normal, and not crippled and be stuck in a ridiculous wheelchair.

In a low-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair is a definite and ridiculous liability to the rest of the party, presumably involved in dangerous wilderness journeys and adventures into subterranean dungeons, all of which represents a cascading series of never-ending physical and mobility challenges on a crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. Furthermore, socially and operationally, such a party of adventurers would clearly be better served by simply recruiting a normal, healthy character.

(1) High-magic doesn't necessarily mean easy healing. For example, Eberron has a lot of arcane magic and enchantments, but it has less healing than other D&D worlds. This is on healing and resurrection in Eberron,

QuoteNo matter how much gold you throw at the clergy, the fact of the matter is that most NPC priests have no spellcasting ability, but instead have proficiency in History, Religion, and perhaps Performance for delivering particularly effective sermons. NPCs capable of casting divine magic are rare, and even if you do find one, none of them are in the habit of selling miracles.

Source: https://eberron-dnd5e.obsidianportal.com/adventure-log/healing-resurrection-in-eberron

So it depends on the specifics of the high-magic world.

(2) In a low-magic world, what little magic there is can be all the more valuable because of its rarity. I already gave the example of the prophetess Silksif in my vikings game -- which was definitely low magic. She was a poor fighter and athlete, and would otherwise have been a liability on any war mission - but her magical ability was invaluable to the others who had no magic. The same logic would apply to a low-magic D&D world.

--------

These are pretty obvious to me in non-D&D games. I think the challenge in D&D games is that there is no concept of disadvantages or other special features for characters. So it goes against the standard rules to have a character who has any sort of outstanding drawback. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to have house rules to allow such.

The trick is that a disadvantage like missing a limb or being paraplegic needs to be balanced with a corresponding advantage. Depending on how the balancing is done, the character could be too powerful, or not powerful enough.

I haven't done this in any of my D&D games - but in other game systems, having characters with disadvantages of various sorts has meant a lot of cool gaming.

Yes, but your prophetess NPC can... walk up the steps, she can get up a hill by herself, she could walk up a mountain pass.  She might get winded, presumbably, but she could do it.  She probably couldn't climb a mountain but so what, most stereotypical wizards couldn't do it.  This kind of scenario is typical when any spellcaster PC adventures with warriors.

And sure, I don't care what other people do with their D&D games.  If they want to have a high-level wheelchair bound warrior killing giants, and hewing through trolls with a magic sword... rolling up the mountainside, and through the hills and dales...  more power to them, but I just want the right to find it laughably stupid.   I since I have that right, I find the concept laughably stupid (and that's the kind of stuff being pitched!) 

To each their own, I suppose.

I don't disagree with deadDMwalking, though I'm not filtering by opinion here.  I'm playing a game to play the game, not hear other peoples' takes on politics, regardless of what that take is.  I don't want to spend my time listening to a player ramble for half an hour, even if their opinion completely lines up with mine; that isn't what I'm there for.  As far as I'm concerned, anyone I game with is welcome to have any and every opinion they like, as long as they don't try mashing it in my face or wasting my time.

And yes, someone wanting to roll around in a magic levitating wheelchair that leaves both hands free for them to fight at zero disadvantage would get bounced from my game in a jiffy.  I can see reasons for an adventuring group to bring along and protect a disabled member, say a wizened ancient sage with invaluable knowledge, the alchemist who is the only person who can concoct an antidote for the poison affecting the king, the world's premier tactician with some permanent injury from war, what have you.  But not the party barbarian.

Quote from: zagreus on September 26, 2021, 10:12:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 26, 2021, 08:42:08 PM
In a low-magic world, what little magic there is can be all the more valuable because of its rarity. I already gave the example of the prophetess Silksif in my vikings game -- which was definitely low magic. She was a poor fighter and athlete, and would otherwise have been a liability on any war mission - but her magical ability was invaluable to the others who had no magic. The same logic would apply to a low-magic D&D world.

Yes, but your prophetess NPC can... walk up the steps, she can get up a hill by herself, she could walk up a mountain pass.  She might get winded, presumbably, but she could do it.  She probably couldn't climb a mountain but so what, most stereotypical wizards couldn't do it.  This kind of scenario is typical when any spellcaster PC adventures with warriors.

The prophetess was a PC, and yes, she could walk. However, my claim is that from my experience with the campaign - it would have worked perfectly well also if she couldn't walk too - like if she were a disabled elderly grandmother. The point is that low magic doesn't mean that magic has no effect. Just a bit of magic can become hugely important if that is the only magic around. In general, for a low-magic campaign, I'd expect a wheelchair-bound character to be something like a prophetess or other magician to fit in.

In a high-magic fantasy campaign, what fits depends on the type(s) of high magic. In Eberron, for example, healing is rare and magic prosthetic limbs are common, so a magic wheelchair seems possible - which could be anything from a frail people-mover to a deadly chariot-like war machine. That allows for a variety of characters, and the magical mechanism fits with the esthetic of Eberron. In another setting, maybe regeneration is common so there wouldn't be a need for such.

Quote from: zagreus on September 26, 2021, 10:12:50 PM
And sure, I don't care what other people do with their D&D games.  If they want to have a high-level wheelchair bound warrior killing giants, and hewing through trolls with a magic sword... rolling up the mountainside, and through the hills and dales...  more power to them, but I just want the right to find it laughably stupid.   I since I have that right, I find the concept laughably stupid (and that's the kind of stuff being pitched!)

For pretty much any character type, there are stupid examples of it. My son was just telling me about a "crazy cat lady" as a Swarmkeeper Ranger, which is a stupid (but funny) idea. I've seen stupid characters of all sorts of types. But the impression I've been getting has been that *all* disabled characters are stupid.

In general, I think it's a lot more plausible for a magically-enhanced PC to kill giants and trolls than a non-magically-enhanced character. For further, it depends on the specifics.

I'm just reading the thread, but I haven't gotten the impression that people think all disabled characters are stupid. Joshua Lackhand or some version is common. People lacking eyes is common.

The issue is that many of our tables are simulationist. I ran a Magitech Chronicles game, which not only has full magical regeneration, but also has cybernetics, so cyberlimbs are possible too.

A character wanted to have an NPC in their background, who was rich, be confined to a hover-wheelchair. There's no in-universe reason why this would be necessary. He could be healed almost instantly, or have an operation in a few hours.

But it was important to the player. Really important. In my game we have covenants between gods and mortals. I had the character in question take a covenant that he would never accept magical healing, and we were able to pull off what the PC wanted.

But I had to be careful. If I didn't have a good reason and just shoehorned it in then 2 of the people at the table would have dropped immediately. It would have destroyed their suspension of disbelief.

And many of the SJW types I run into will crucify you for feeling the need to justify such things. To them inclusion comes first, and if it destroys realism they don't care. But I do. My players do. And we aren't evil people for that, IMO. But we are accused of it nonetheless.

  I honestly don't understand why you feel bound to include inflexible people in your fun. You and the like-minded others do not have to run every game with such intransigent people. This is shared fun time with shared imagination, if they cannot imagine such a fun they can sit that gathering out and rejoin during another. No harm, no foul!   

You do not sound like evil people at all for enjoying such a form of pretend.

Quote from: ChrisFox on September 28, 2021, 11:11:16 PM
There's no in-universe reason why this would be necessary. He could be healed almost instantly, or have an operation in a few hours.

Real people refuse 'healing' available in our world - some because they don't think they need fixing.  How is 'not wanting to' not a good reason for a rich person who KNOWS that their unusual choice will automatically distinguish them in any room?  To me, that's just someone that understands branding. 

Quote from: ChrisFox on September 28, 2021, 11:11:16 PM
I'm just reading the thread, but I haven't gotten the impression that people think all disabled characters are stupid. Joshua Lackhand or some version is common. People lacking eyes is common.

I was reacting to posts like these,

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2021, 11:38:32 PM
*Laughing* Any soy-drinking, sniveling crybaby attempting to play a wheelchair-bound cripple in my world would face a swift and grim fate--as the rest of the athletic, in-shape player characters flee for their lives from pursuing Tyrannosaurs--the slow, lagging-behind cripple would be the first character pounced on and fucking devoured by the Tyrannosaurs!

Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
I can see you not wanting to play with people whose politics are on the other extreme of yours, but - honestly- how the F is an "adventurer" going to be adventuring in a wheelchair?  This is where the game becomes ABOUT representation rather than telling a story/running a game that makes any sense.

I agree that disabled PCs should be tailored to fit the game-world. Your example of making a wheelchair-bound character fit your magitech world sounds fine to me - and it goes counter to the posts above.

Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2021, 10:02:25 AM

Quote from: ChrisFox on September 28, 2021, 11:11:16 PM
I'm just reading the thread, but I haven't gotten the impression that people think all disabled characters are stupid. Joshua Lackhand or some version is common. People lacking eyes is common.

I was reacting to posts like these,

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2021, 11:38:32 PM
*Laughing* Any soy-drinking, sniveling crybaby attempting to play a wheelchair-bound cripple in my world would face a swift and grim fate--as the rest of the athletic, in-shape player characters flee for their lives from pursuing Tyrannosaurs--the slow, lagging-behind cripple would be the first character pounced on and fucking devoured by the Tyrannosaurs!

Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
I can see you not wanting to play with people whose politics are on the other extreme of yours, but - honestly- how the F is an "adventurer" going to be adventuring in a wheelchair?  This is where the game becomes ABOUT representation rather than telling a story/running a game that makes any sense.

I agree that disabled PCs should be tailored to fit the game-world. Your example of making a wheelchair-bound character fit your magitech world sounds fine to me - and it goes counter to the posts above.

Greetings!

Yes, that's right. What might I have been reacting to in my commentary?

I think Chris Fox realizes the distinction between "disabled" characters that are legitimate, reasonable, and also realistically able to participate and function with an adventuring group, and disabled characters that are just fucking ridiculous and stupid.

My angle on that is yeah, a character that is missing a hand or an eye--while experiencing some definite drawbacks and personal, individual hindrances--such characters are still able to function and participate with the adventuring group in a reasonable and effective manner.

Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.

No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[looks up from coffee]

So, have we figured out how to stop the D&D SJWs? As it related to the RPG space?

Has anyone suggested that you can't STOP us? Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't? I think the RPG list of woke companies is stupid BUT there's a silver lining here -- you can use that list to avoid shit you don't like or want to support and (maybe) have some fun playing the games you do want to support? You like having fun still, yes?

Or this more a chest-thumping, tiki-torch wielding, angry man-child tantrum of anguish? If so, I'm here to listen. That's what friends are for.

Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PMHas anyone suggested that you can't STOP us?

I was about to go into debate, but then I remembered your two faced and this ideology is key to your sense of superiority over others. It would be like convincing you of the wrongdoing of your god.

Anyway, there have been groups before that have razed things to the ground in the name of their sacred mission, and yet none rule the world in its entirety today. You will be stopped. If not by others, then by the caustic self-destructive nature of your movement.

Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't?

Dont know if you have seen the list which helps you to find good games?

Might be worth checking out.

Quote from: Shasarak on September 29, 2021, 05:14:29 PM

Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't?

Dont know if you have seen the list which helps you to find good games?

Might be worth checking out.

Don't know if you read the second paragraph of the post you quoted where he addressed that list.

Might be worth checking out.