Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.

How odd. It's a game session. What does anyone's gender or sexuality matter? Were they planning on trying to pick someone up for a quickie in the toilets?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 08, 2021, 09:19:44 PM

Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.

How odd. It's a game session. What does anyone's gender or sexuality matter? Were they planning on trying to pick someone up for a quickie in the toilets?

Because they're like vegans, at this point. It's all they can talk about, and they inject their orientation into everything, regardless of how appropriate.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on July 08, 2021, 10:15:33 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 08, 2021, 09:19:44 PM

Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.

How odd. It's a game session. What does anyone's gender or sexuality matter? Were they planning on trying to pick someone up for a quickie in the toilets?

Because they're like vegans, at this point. It's all they can talk about, and they inject their orientation into everything, regardless of how appropriate.

Did you know one can be vegan and not tell anyone about it?

It's a shocking revelation.

That is not my experience of gay and transgender people.

That is my experience of Social Justice Warriors. But there is only a tiny overlap between the three groups, most SJWs are very much middle class, whitebread and straight.

A while back here there was a thread talking about Pendragon, and someone mentioned playing it for ten years. Someone asked him, how did you go with the religious themes? He said fine, nobody seemed bothered. He was asked about his players' religions. He said, "I don't know."
"How can you play with someone for ten years and not know their religion?"
"We're British."

Be British.

Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
ok well, just do I am honest with at least myself.

I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.

Frankly, am shocked. I was telling them about this thread and how fucking ridicules it was when things took a turn I didn't expect.

I'm sad.

Hey, Gameogre. Sorry to hear that. When I talked to my local Pentecostals, they were very surprised that another Christian would be in support of gay marriage. Despite (or perhaps because of) lots of communication technology, I think people today increasingly are only contacting others of similar views.

I've been trying to think of more ways to do outreach and connect with different communities at my church. We had a service in the spring when a conservative Christian speaker talked - he had become friend with one of our congregation members through Braver Angels ( https://braverangels.org/ ).

Yeah it really was not a pleasant debate.

There point was that if they had this magical power to foretell the future they wouldn't want to play with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community the same way they wouldn't want to play with anyone else who was sinning. Like a man who was cheating on his wife, alcoholic, drug addict, athiest ect.. That you are supposed to hold people accountable for their actions and they just would not be comfortable and able to relax under those conditions.

Then I'm afraid it got rather heated as both sides quoted bible stricture to support their opinions. Because we are all friends we knew stuff about each other that made holding those views rather hypocritical and eventually those facts got thrown around and people got more angry.

After that it kinda all just fell apart. I'm afraid I didn't handle it very well, it was just so unexpected and disorienting. These are people I have known for years and the some of the stuff they were saying just were so wrong and frankly seemed like false characters like holding views I would expect SJW's to try to push that Christians held in order to paint us in a bad light. They fact that they were actually saying these things ...ugg well shit.

So it's just a mess.

I guess they're not too fond of that "judge not, that ye be judged" thing?

Or "love one another"?

Greetings!

There are a variety of social situations where a Christian should exercise *Discernment*. Going to the local game store or a game convention to game, it should be expected that a gamer may encounter all flavours of freaks and weirdos. To one's reasonable ability, just get the game going and have fun. It is not the time or place to wade into a huge political debate--or a theological debate or sermon. Similarly, unless a Christian works at a specifically Christian business, it is common to work with all kinds of different people--different races, different politics, and different religions. I don't know of many businesses that tend to approve of engaging fellow co-workers and colleagues in political or religious debates. Likewise, when a person is attending some kind of school or university, it is best to keep the political and religious commentary to a minimum. Remember the main purpose that you are there for. The same thing applies when gaming in a public venue. It really is that simple.

At your own home, the family, a close friend--of course, it is entirely understandable that a person would want to curate who they let into their group, and into their private home. That shouldn't likewise be a problem to figure out. Invite the kinds of people you want to play with at home, and don't invite people that you don't want to associate with on a long-term basis in such a personal environment. Problem solved.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
...
I didn't say mainstream Christianity. I'm perfectly aware that it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage. ...

Then please don't say "Christian goons" then.

Because when people say "Christian Goons' or refer to the "anti-D&D Christian movement" they rarely give the qualifier of: "it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage."   

Most who hear someone say 'Christian goons' or 'Christians went after D&D' conflate it to mean the person who is making the statement is referring to all Christians. Because generally that is what the person who is making such statements is trying to do.

"Nutjobs" or "Churchians" or even "Evangelictards" are all worthy substitutes.

"That was part of the crazy Satanic Panic phenomenon." – My critiques still apply. Ginned up media hysteria giving 'no one could possibly buy this much publicity' airtime worth of national platforms to neurotic women and fringe churchians no one ever heard of before.

We need to stop spreading their propaganda for them.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
... but Christianity itself is vulnerable, maybe especially vulnerable, to the same SJW mentality.

Don't buy into the propaganda. If anything, Christians are generally one of the more resistant groups to SJW influencing. Because Christianity is not a Marxist movement.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2021, 05:46:27 PM
The Age of Enlightenment and the idea of inalienable human rights is the ONLY reason why we have a valid position for defeating the SJWs with anything other than a justification based on violence.

The idea of inalienable human rights didn't exactly pop into the Enlightenment philosophers heads out of nowhere. They were living in a culture infused with 1600 years or so of Christian morality, thought, ideals, and philosophy. During which the theology of natural law was written about by Christian philosophers such as Albert the Great, and Thomas Aquinas. In Paul's Epistle to the Romans, specifically 2:14–15 is universally acknowledged to be a commentary of even unbelievers being able to recognized within themselves the Moral laws of God, part of which is the sacredness of life.

The "enlightenment concepts" of inalienable human rights were already formed in Christian thought by the reformation. The so-called "contribution" to already existing ideals within Christian morality by enlightenment philosophers consisted largely of removing God from their moral equations.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2021, 05:46:27 PM
Pre-Enlightenment Christianity and Foucaultian Postmodernism (SJWs) have the same fundamental ideological notion: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

Pre-Enlightenment Christian philosophers and reformation theologists say No.

Most are familiar with the Christian prohibitions against murder, stealing, coveting, not bearing false witness, and a few more thou shalt not's...

The SJW's operate under no such prohibitions because they do not believe in objective morality of any kind.

Believing in the word and commandments of God; that there is a clear, unchanging, right and wrong moral code that you do your best to abide by for the good of your eternal soul is a very different thing than believing that forming the correct narrative is all you need to justify whatever you want to do to your enemies.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2021, 05:46:27 PM
The Christians do sound a little less narcissistic at least, but it only goes so far, since as a rule whatever God hates and wants destroyed happens by some miracle to be exactly what they personally hate and want destroyed! Funny how that works out.

More like:

As a rule, whatever men hate and want destroyed they happen by some miracle to be able to justify and rationalize hating and destroying what they want.

The ability of people to rationalize their bad behavior regardless of their professed belief systems knows no bounds. Using the bad behavior of people acting contrary to their faith to dismiss an entire belief system that is foundational to western civilization is a bit of an overreaction.

Enlightenment ideals were a major part of the French revolution and we all know what a bloody mess that turned into. Yet I don't see modern fans of enlightenment philosophy throwing the baby out with the bath water just yet. Funny how that works out.

Quote from: Jaeger on July 09, 2021, 02:50:05 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
...
I didn't say mainstream Christianity. I'm perfectly aware that it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage. ...

Then please don't say "Christian goons" then.

No. Not all Christians are/were goons, but these were. I think that's a sufficient deliniation.

QuoteBecause when people say "Christian Goons' or refer to the "anti-D&D Christian movement" they rarely give the qualifier of: "it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage."   

And a slient majority of Christians that said nothing and let the goons drive the bus of their faith off a cliff.

QuoteMost who hear someone say 'Christian goons' or 'Christians went after D&D' conflate it to mean the person who is making the statement is referring to all Christians. Because generally that is what the person who is making such statements is trying to do.

"Nutjobs" or "Churchians" or even "Evangelictards" are all worthy substitutes.

"That was part of the crazy Satanic Panic phenomenon." – My critiques still apply. Ginned up media hysteria giving 'no one could possibly buy this much publicity' airtime worth of national platforms to neurotic women and fringe churchians no one ever heard of before.

We need to stop spreading their propaganda for them.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
... but Christianity itself is vulnerable, maybe especially vulnerable, to the same SJW mentality.

Don't buy into the propaganda. If anything, Christians are generally one of the more resistant groups to SJW influencing. Because Christianity is not a Marxist movement.

https://religionnews.com/2021/05/18/james-lindsay-southern-baptists-crt-al-mohler-hoax-new-discourses-beth-moorerace-ofallon/

Quote from: Jaeger on July 09, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Then please don't say "Christian goons" then.

Because when people say "Christian Goons' or refer to the "anti-D&D Christian movement" they rarely give the qualifier of: "it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage."   

Most who hear someone say 'Christian goons' or 'Christians went after D&D' conflate it to mean the person who is making the statement is referring to all Christians. Because generally that is what the person who is making such statements is trying to do.

You're railing against propaganda while promoting propaganda in your favor. Ratman's statement was clear and precise. You're reading things into it that aren't there, demanding unnecessary qualifiers, and reacting against very mild slurs because they're being applied to a subset of a group to which you belong. None of those are valid complaints.

Quote from: Gameogre on July 09, 2021, 03:28:59 AM
There point was that if they had this magical power to foretell the future they wouldn't want to play with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community the same way they wouldn't want to play with anyone else who was sinning. Like a man who was cheating on his wife, alcoholic, drug addict, athiest ect.. That you are supposed to hold people accountable for their actions and they just would not be comfortable and able to relax under those conditions.

Then I'm afraid it got rather heated as both sides quoted bible stricture to support their opinions. Because we are all friends we knew stuff about each other that made holding those views rather hypocritical and eventually those facts got thrown around and people got more angry.

Quote from: SHARK on July 09, 2021, 04:45:37 AM
There are a variety of social situations where a Christian should exercise *Discernment*. Going to the local game store or a game convention to game, it should be expected that a gamer may encounter all flavours of freaks and weirdos. To one's reasonable ability, just get the game going and have fun. It is not the time or place to wade into a huge political debate--or a theological debate or sermon.

As I read it, the problem among Gameogre's friends wasn't that they couldn't help preaching to the people they saw as sinners - it was that they couldn't relax around them. That sounds similar to a brand of elitism that I've seen in some churches - sometimes even among Unitarian Universalists, who are non-denominational and big on non-judgement. I think it is a feature of psychology some people really want to be part of an "in-group", and that can be stronger than religious values.

I think the most Christian thing to do is to go among sinners and demonstrate to them your values. Seeing Christians live and demonstrate their values is an example to non-Christians - even if it's just how we have fun and be creative. Doing this well spreads the faith without preaching. But there is a mindset to be safe and reassured in one's in-group, and feel superior to sinners rather than helping them.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 08, 2021, 09:19:44 PM

Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.

How odd. It's a game session. What does anyone's gender or sexuality matter? Were they planning on trying to pick someone up for a quickie in the toilets?

From Gameogre's follow up, it sounds like the topic came up while BSing about magic effects.
I dunno about anyone else, but my game time is never 100% game business. There's always some socializing and joking and catching up during a session. Plenty of opportunity for side topics to come up.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM

No. Not all Christians are/were goons, but these were. I think that's a sufficient delineation.

I agree that it should be.

But that is typically not the intent most have when such terms are generally used together on most RPG boards.

I can't remember the last time I interacted with someone who delineated it out the way you did.

But then this is the RPGSite, all the other discussions I had were on other Forums, and the typical reply back I or anyone else inevitably got was: "Well, my experience with Christians and D&D was X, and..*Insert tirade against Christianity here*...".

So I'll readily admit to incorrectly interpreting your statement based on past experience with different people.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM
And a slient majority of Christians that said nothing and let the goons drive the bus of their faith off a cliff.

Christians did write articles in defense of D&D. And these efforts are known.

But it was a different era then and it was virtually impossible to compete against the national media narrative.

And while a big deal for D&D players, it was a side show to the larger 'satanic panic' issue. Which for most of mainstream Christianity was largely a non-issue.

I can easily understand why the heads of major religions at the time took one look at the news coverage, went: "That's so ridiculous, no one's going to believe these nutters.." and changed the channel.
Mistakes made and lessons learned.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM

https://religionnews.com/2021/05/18/james-lindsay-southern-baptists-crt-al-mohler-hoax-new-discourses-beth-moorerace-ofallon/

I know of a bunch more examples myself.

Which is why I said Generally more resilient, not utterly immune.

Quote from: Pat on July 09, 2021, 03:07:17 PM
...
You're railing against propaganda while promoting propaganda in your favor. ...

His statement may have been clear to people on this board who were already familiar with his views on the subject.

When you go to other RPG forums and they get into the whole 'satanic panic' nonsense, they clearly use "Christian did X" along with their personal whipping boy stories to conflate their experience with Christianity in general. It is one of their favorite dead horses, although enough time has passed it comes up far less often than it used to.

So when you use the same wording as the outright haters, is sounds as if you are repeating their sentiments to those of us who have interacted with a lot of haters.

As to propaganda in my favor. Don't believe me. Research for yourself the individuals and their associations who made themselves into prominent "Christians" (and a lot of money) by pushing the 'D&D is the devil' panic button.

Quote from: Jaeger on July 09, 2021, 06:08:26 PM
His statement may have been clear to people on this board who were already familiar with his views on the subject.

When you go to other RPG forums and they get into the whole 'satanic panic' nonsense, they clearly use "Christian did X" along with their personal whipping boy stories to conflate their experience with Christianity in general. It is one of their favorite dead horses, although enough time has passed it comes up far less often than it used to.

So when you use the same wording as the outright haters, is sounds as if you are repeating their sentiments to those of us who have interacted with a lot of haters.

In today's world, I'm going to automatically throw out any argument based on dogwhistles.

I think we need to return to a world where people respond to each other based on the plain meaning of the words they use, instead of using social justice kabbalism to attack people for sending imaginary hidden messages.