QuoteThe SJW's don't buy games.  They don't play games. And yet the large gaming companies are kowtowing to them.

Sorry to say it mate, but yeah they do. Quite a lot. Probably more than conservatists. (And I mean I'm not even surprised).
Been on enough various RPG facebook groups run by leftists to see they are clearly also gamers. Deluding ourselves in this regard won't help.
Also in younger generations amount of SJWs are way higher than among overall population - and those shall be consoomers.

QuoteThis is the real question: how much of the market does woke account for in terms of purchases regardless of number of people.

The problem is normies in West are generally on board with social progresssivists - even if not with various full blown anarchocommunist queer factions or XIR neopronouns.
So the WOTC or MCU level of woke catering will be tolerated by them, and WOTC or MCU will not go full Thirsty Sword Lesbians way at least not in this generation.

QuoteHow is some stranger im just sitting down to play D&D with supposed to know im a Christian anyway?

In my playing such things usually are revealed in banter.

QuoteGameogre - you're speaking as if I'm talking about all Christians, when I specified a couple "who are vocally opposed to gay marriage" - which is the important part about that. It sounds to me like you are not vocally opposed to gay marriage. I can't tell if you privately oppose gay marriage, but even if so, it doesn't sound like you're vocal about it.

Define vocally.
Look I'm vocally oppossed to Lutheranism and Calvinism - I'd still game with such filthy heretics, if game was good.

QuoteIn my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.

Well their call. But that only gives credence to theory that it's left who is more picky about people around table.

Quote from: Dapig on July 03, 2021, 05:21:31 PM
I think we have to fight on each site, each forum and keep a torch lit.

I am a refugee from another site.  As soon as you start winning an argument, they impose restrictions on the language that you can use.  Over an ENWorld, you cannot use the words ideology, political, sjw and many others.  This is meant to cripple your ability to debate.

Worse, they further restrict words you use to fairly debate.  Recently they banned someone for using the word "cancelled."

Nonetheless, we have to buck up and keep debating.  Sucks to be be dogpiled and ultimately banned but sucks worse to hide in a cave and leave others without hope.

We have to encourage others actively and let our logic and reality based arguments shine.  And then also regroup and replenish and hang out on sites with actual free speech like this one. 

This is right.  Basically when people can't back their arguments with logic and reason, or even the occasional spirited rude comments, the weak sisters of the group go to "mommy" (aka heavily moderation) to make sure that only those who think like they do are allowed to say and think what the group wants. 

Back in its heyday, for example, I used to love "Aint it Cool News", not for its articles- they were lame- but the forums were a free for all, almost no moderation- so there were insults along with debate.  And what came out of it, was fun, nonsense, and some good intellectual conversation. 

I used to go to Comic Book Resources, but after a couple of incidents, that forum became so heavily moderated, you couldn't say "boo" without being banned.  I was banned for something so mild... I can't even remember what it was for.  Questioning a writer's talent, I think, for Christ's sake, on a comic book forum.  Not even in a rude way. 

Anyway, short version, censorship isn't a way to go, imo.  Hopefully this board remains a forum for open discussion for rpgs!

Something Awful's forums were surprisingly polite back in the day. Partly because you had to pay to get on, and being a cocksucker meant you could get shitcanned and out the ten bucks or so.

I've never had a problem with moderation. What I have a problem with is inconsistent or blatant favoritism in moderation.

This is why RPGnet is shit, and will continue to be shit.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 06, 2021, 11:20:57 AM
Something Awful's forums were surprisingly polite back in the day. Partly because you had to pay to get on, and being a cocksucker meant you could get shitcanned and out the ten bucks or so.

I've never had a problem with moderation. What I have a problem with is inconsistent or blatant favoritism in moderation.

This is why RPGnet is shit, and will continue to be shit.

And it's not just them!

Mid argument, just when you are making a point a certain site let's you know the word, a neutral word is verboten.  If you can't win with logic, just steal words from your mouth....

Quote from: Dapig on July 06, 2021, 12:39:34 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 06, 2021, 11:20:57 AM
Something Awful's forums were surprisingly polite back in the day. Partly because you had to pay to get on, and being a cocksucker meant you could get shitcanned and out the ten bucks or so.

I've never had a problem with moderation. What I have a problem with is inconsistent or blatant favoritism in moderation.

This is why RPGnet is shit, and will continue to be shit.

And it's not just them!

Mid argument, just when you are making a point a certain site let's you know the word, a neutral word is verboten.  If you can't win with logic, just steal words from your mouth....

Just say the word and the site, dude. Pretty certain Pundit's not going to yell at you for samizdat.

Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:46:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.

One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.

That's cool.

However, I feel like you've replace "anti-gay-marriage" (my words) with broader "conservative" - similar to how Gameogre replaced "Christian".

In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage -- and in my experience, they tend to react poorly to people who are vocally anti-gay-marriage.

For example, back in 2008, I went out on my street corner with my son with signs opposing California Prop 8 that would ban gay marriage. There were also a bunch of members of the local Pentecostal Church holding signs supporting Prop 8. We were able to speak respectfully and our kids played some together and shared some ice cream. However, when I spoke of this with my gay friends, I recall some said that they didn't think they'd be able to do this. They felt it would be difficult to be respectful in the face of people picketing to deny them marriage rights, because they were inherently not being treated with respect by those church members.

I can't tell if this is different from your experience, because you're talking more broadly about just being "conservative" as opposed to "anti-gay-marriage".

Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM

Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:46:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.

One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.

That's cool.

However, I feel like you've replace "anti-gay-marriage" (my words) with broader "conservative" - similar to how Gameogre replaced "Christian".

In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage --

https://theconversation.com/gay-rebels-why-some-older-homosexual-men-dont-support-same-sex-marriage-86205
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2019/06/05/gays-against-gay-marriage-2/
https://theconversation.com/why-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-ultimate-tool-for-queer-liberation-103702
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/

I don't know exactly how many gay people are critical or downright against gay marriage, but it's a notable amount that have argued against it, primarily on the queer criticism that marriage itself is conservative and restrictive.

I do appreciate the freedom here...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2021, 05:43:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage --

https://theconversation.com/gay-rebels-why-some-older-homosexual-men-dont-support-same-sex-marriage-86205
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2019/06/05/gays-against-gay-marriage-2/
https://theconversation.com/why-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-ultimate-tool-for-queer-liberation-103702
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/

I don't know exactly how many gay people are critical or downright against gay marriage, but it's a notable amount that have argued against it, primarily on the queer criticism that marriage itself is conservative and restrictive.

OK, fair cop that they exist.

Still, in my experience, this radical anti-marriage stance is a very small minority. Further, I suspect the anti-marriage contingent (i.e. who say marriage is itself conservative and restrictive) would be even less compatible with conservative Christians like my local Pentecostals.

I don't think it drives against the general point that in the current climate, there are mutually incompatible groups of gamers.

Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 06:20:47 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2021, 05:43:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage --

https://theconversation.com/gay-rebels-why-some-older-homosexual-men-dont-support-same-sex-marriage-86205
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2019/06/05/gays-against-gay-marriage-2/
https://theconversation.com/why-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-ultimate-tool-for-queer-liberation-103702
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/

I don't know exactly how many gay people are critical or downright against gay marriage, but it's a notable amount that have argued against it, primarily on the queer criticism that marriage itself is conservative and restrictive.

OK, fair cop that they exist.

Still, in my experience, this radical anti-marriage stance is a very small minority. Further, I suspect the anti-marriage contingent (i.e. who say marriage is itself conservative and restrictive) would be even less compatible with conservative Christians like my local Pentecostals.

I don't think it drives against the general point that in the current climate, there are mutually incompatible groups of gamers.

Oh, I agree with you there. I just don't think the dividing line is homosexuality. I think the incompatible groups are the ones trying to turn the RPG space into an ideological battleground over personal politics.

All your points is based on very small minorities.

Your bias sees these tiny little minorities as vast numbers.

Everything the left does is based on this. The Vast majority of people on any sexuality, religion, Political party or any other way you want to divide up people are fine with each other unless they are MADE to feel attacked.

That's all that the left and the media do and frankly is what I have seen you do here. Try to divide and make people feel like they are under fire  or that other people feel like they are under fire.

You want to see fire and attackers around every corner and they just are not there. You seize on any evidence and want to trumpet it as if it's everywhere. It's not but it will NEVER go away. Human beings are flawed and 15% of us at any one time are just fucking nuts. Those nutters will hate group A and the nutters in group A will hate group B and the nutter in group B will hate group C and....it goes on forever.

The 85% of us that are not currently nutters just have to say "Shut Up and Sit down". Not try and change the lay of the land based on those few nutballs.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2021, 06:55:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 06:20:47 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2021, 05:43:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage --

https://theconversation.com/gay-rebels-why-some-older-homosexual-men-dont-support-same-sex-marriage-86205
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2019/06/05/gays-against-gay-marriage-2/
https://theconversation.com/why-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-ultimate-tool-for-queer-liberation-103702
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/

I don't know exactly how many gay people are critical or downright against gay marriage, but it's a notable amount that have argued against it, primarily on the queer criticism that marriage itself is conservative and restrictive.

OK, fair cop that they exist.

Still, in my experience, this radical anti-marriage stance is a very small minority. Further, I suspect the anti-marriage contingent (i.e. who say marriage is itself conservative and restrictive) would be even less compatible with conservative Christians like my local Pentecostals.

I don't think it drives against the general point that in the current climate, there are mutually incompatible groups of gamers.

Oh, I agree with you there. I just don't think the dividing line is homosexuality. I think the incompatible groups are the ones trying to turn the RPG space into an ideological battleground over personal politics.

Pretty much. That's why I offer as the general rule for MAGACon to be...

"Behavior deemed disruptive to a game session by the GM; ex. not dropping non-session related discussions when asked and continuing public displays of affection at the gaming table when asked to stop; is grounds for expulsion from the session without refund."

That safely covers both of Jhkim's extremes without prejudice. Frankly, a heterosexual couple who couldn't keep their hands off each other would be just as disruptive at a typical convention game table as a homosexual one and the guy who won't shut up about UFO conspiracy theories or their favorite recipes is every bit as disruptive as the one who won't shut up about gay marriage long enough to actually game.

The criteria is... "is the action disruptive of other people's fun? If yes, expel them from the session."

Quote from: Gameogre on July 06, 2021, 07:16:39 PM
That's all that the left and the media do and frankly is what I have seen you do here. Try to divide and make people feel like they are under fire  or that other people feel like they are under fire.

You want to see fire and attackers around every corner and they just are not there. You seize on any evidence and want to trumpet it as if it's everywhere. It's not but it will NEVER go away. Human beings are flawed and 15% of us at any one time are just fucking nuts. Those nutters will hate group A and the nutters in group A will hate group B and the nutter in group B will hate group C and....it goes on forever.

The 85% of us that are not currently nutters just have to say "Shut Up and Sit down". Not try and change the lay of the land based on those few nutballs.

But it seems to me that people like VengerSatanis and many others here are precisely complaining about being told "Shut Up and Sit Down" by the current game convention organizers like GenCon and others. They are pushing back because they feel that they are under fire. I didn't start that talk - I responded to VengerSatanis' complaint.

And I haven't said anything against this. I'm in support of suggestions like Chris24601's talk of a "MAGAcon" - not because I agree with his politics, but because I think people should have their choice of what game convention to attend. People should be free to organize a MAGAcon or a communist game convention or any other, and gamers attend whichever ones they like. To the extent that some other liberals would try to shut down a MAGAcon simply for existing, I'm opposed to that.

I don't think anyone should have to shut up and sit down. It's a game they're playing for fun.

What I am saying is that I don't think there is any way to please the 7.5% most left-leaning gamers and 7.5% most right-leaning gamers at the same convention. If you please one side, the other will be unhappy, and vice-versa.

Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 09:03:59 PM
But it seems to me that people like VengerSatanis and many others here are precisely complaining about being told "Shut Up and Sit Down" by the current game convention organizers like GenCon and others. They are pushing back because they feel that they are under fire. I didn't start that talk - I responded to VengerSatanis' complaint.

Uhhh, no.  People like VS are being told what they have to say and not say.  They're not being told to "Shut up about politics and play";  they're being told "You must say this, you must not say that, and your silence on political matters is unacceptable."  There's a world of difference between those stances (but we all know you are all about relativism and willfully blind to any distinctions that would challenge it).

Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 09:03:59 PM

But it seems to me that people like VengerSatanis and many others here are precisely complaining about being told "Shut Up and Sit Down" by the current game convention organizers like GenCon and others. They are pushing back because they feel that they are under fire. I didn't start that talk - I responded to VengerSatanis' complaint.

Are you reading the same thread? Because I don't see anyone in the group of people you're talking to saying they want to express their own political views at gaming conventions. No, they're saying they don't want politics forced on them. Multiple people have responded to your example of an anti-gay marriage couple with roughly the equivalent of "they should shut up too. We just want to game."