Playing devils advocate: There are intolerant christians as much as there are intolerant people of every category.

But again, if you want to have fun as a group in a imaginary world, if thats what everybody wants in good faith, the game will happen.
I have a largely SJW girl in my group. I find her politics utterly idiotic , but shes a good gamer, and shes been a reliable player in my games and I value her as a player and she values my game.

I believe promotion of GOOD FAITH arguments is critical to difusion of tensions, moreso then censorship of opinions. The reason why so much SJW stuff has cultural power is that it rides on some level of censorship coming from the 'family values/religous' right of the 70s-90s.

Oposition to the SJW game has to really up their optics game, and reject the baseline SJW principles of virtue as they are just downright incompatible with anything but themselves.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 05, 2021, 12:23:13 PM

Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 11:04:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage

I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention.

They could all shut up about gay marriage stuff and play D&D together? IME in real life that is what actually happens!!! :-O

Pretty much. I count half-a-dozen gays among my various game groups with no problems despite my being well known among my friends as "Captain Catholic" because I actually live my faith, but part of that Faith is "always preach the Gospel; if necessary use words", "Love the Sinner; Hate the Sin" and "we're ALL sinners so don't go picking at someone else's splinters until you've pulled the beam from your own eye."

Frankly, any good Christian knows they'll never convert anyone if they're getting in other people's faces (in my experience those who do are more often self-righteous rather righteous), but I've gotten five members of my gaming circle and their families to join my Church expressly by NOT pushing so they felt safe coming to me when they did have questions.

As long as they're not asking me to bow in obeisance to their lifestyle and don't raise a stink about me silently praying before I eat or not eating meat on Fridays or not being free to game on Sunday mornings and Holy Days of Obligation, I'll game with anyone and I suspect the vast majority of Christians will too.

"we're ALL sinners so don't go picking at someone else's splinters until you've pulled the beam from your own eye." THIS IS HUGE! Speaking as a Christian if I hear another Christian screaming about someone else sin I do a double take and see who it is that's yelling because 9/10  if your over reacting to someone else issues your trying to draw someone's attention(prob yourself) away from your own.

It's hard enough struggling to keep your own soul from nose diving, Ain't got the time or energy to worry about everyone else as well. You do you and if you fuck up that's between you and god.

Sorry lol back to your regularly non-faith posting

I mean the issue hasn't ever really been whether or not to include gays or whatever in the game but finding yourself on the outside of the new gatekeepers because you're the wrong color, political persuasion or just don't want to be preached at. I mean how many times do we need to reform our groups and communities? We get chased out like stray dogs make a new community just to have the same shit happen again in the new community. I found savage worlds after swearing off wotc, and paizo both, now they look like they could go either way. Especially after watching how quick new tsr got yeeted, I'd be surprised if dtrpg didn't somehow retaliate as well against their products.

Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:

1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.

2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.

3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.

4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.

5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:

1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.

2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.

3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.

4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.

5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.

The mistake you make is thinking they have a conscience. Hypocrisy isn't a bug in their ideology, its a FEATURE. They are the Anointed so they don't have to abide by the same standards as the "Oppressors." Their proof that Gygax is a monster who needs to die is that someone else on Twitter said he was; no further proof needed.

The woke are literally... as in by the book definition of the term... INSANE. Their beliefs are not rooted in reality and are so sheltered from reality that I read earlier today that a group of Antifa snowflakes decided to pick a fight with an MS-13 gang member in LA because they weren't acknowledging their gender identities or some SJW poppycock. When you think its a good idea to attack a member of a gang known for hunting their enemies down and leaving their heads on fence posts as an example then you have the self-preservation instincts of a rock and should be in an asylum as a danger to yourself and others.

There is no point in engaging with the SJWs when they attack someone in gaming. They won't change their minds. They won't wake up to how hateful and destructive they're being. The ONLY thing to do is tell them to fuck off and, if the target actually has a decent product, support them by buying it.

Quote from: Gameogre on July 04, 2021, 10:37:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for

(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage

I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.

That just proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about. YOU and people like you are the only ones who care about someone's sexuality at the game table. I'm about as Christian as you can get and not be a Preacher and I have people of all sexualities at my tables. I'm playing D&D, I care how fun you are to game with and don't give a rats ass about anything else. Now I have friends and table top mats I play with and not one of them has ever seemed unhappy about it. How is some stranger im just sitting down to play D&D with supposed to know im a Christian anyway? Or how do I know their sexuality?? This is all hogwash used to disguise your own crazy bias!

Gameogre - you're speaking as if I'm talking about all Christians, when I specified a couple "who are vocally opposed to gay marriage" - which is the important part about that. It sounds to me like you are not vocally opposed to gay marriage. I can't tell if you privately oppose gay marriage, but even if so, it doesn't sound like you're vocal about it.

Personally, I am a Christian who is supportive of gay marriage. I was raised in a Presbyterian church, and the way I first learned about gay people as a kid was when a gay couple brought their adopted baby in for baptism - and our congregation pledged its support as we do with all baptisms. My congregations have always been pro-gay-marriage. My current church is UU (uufrc.org), and I've been acting as worship associate regularly for the past year. I don't think there is anything inherent in Christianity that opposes gay marriage or other LGBT acceptance.

As far as knowing the couple's sexuality -- normally when I play with a married couple, it is clear that they are a couple. They'll typically include that with introductions - like "Hi, I'm Renee and this is my husband Daniel." Even if they don't explicitly say it, it is generally clear from body language and verbal cues. The same is true of other close relations - like if I play in a game with my son, we'll typically mention this in introductions, and/or people will comment on our similarity. I would consider it odd if I *didn't* know that two people I was playing with were married.

I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.

Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
Gameogre - you're speaking as if I'm talking about all Christians, when I specified a couple "who are vocally opposed to gay marriage" - which is the important part about that. It sounds to me like you are not vocally opposed to gay marriage. I can't tell if you privately oppose gay marriage, but even if so, it doesn't sound like you're vocal about it.

You bring up a type of "conservative" Christian rare enough to qualify as a fucking unicorn (i.e. the kind the Left can't shut up about, like that group of religious nuts who protest military funerals and have a total nationwide membership of less than 30 people; or 0.00001% of the population) while implying there's enough of them to present an actual problem.

Frankly, the answer is; eject whoever can't stop obsessing about people's genitalia and/or engages in PDA's at tables surrounded by complete strangers regardless of gender as disruptive of others' fun. If they can't let it rest or keep their hands to themselves for a four hour game slot they aren't really there to game anyway.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 05, 2021, 02:44:30 PM
The mistake you make is thinking they have a conscience. Hypocrisy isn't a bug in their ideology, its a FEATURE. They are the Anointed so they don't have to abide by the same standards as the "Oppressors." Their proof that Gygax is a monster who needs to die is that someone else on Twitter said he was; no further proof needed.

I concur with Chris24601's thoughts on SJWs and would expand even further. They do not even acknowledge their hypocrisy. You have to read Herbert Marcuse's "Repressive Tolerance" to understand the full depth of their ideology. I've blogged about it extensively elsewhere with point by point elaborations; here, let's just summarize the doctrine of repressive tolerance in plain English:

1. Tolerance is only to be extended to truth.
2. Only leftism is objectively true, and anything other than leftism is not.
3. Therefore tolerance is only to be extended to leftism.
4. Anyone who disagrees with this has been indoctrinated by the right wing. To the extent that the majority of people disagree, that means the majority of people are indoctrinated.
5. Since most people are indoctrinated, leftists must break the indoctrination so that they can grasp the truth of leftism.
6. To break the indoctrination, leftists must promote left-wing thought and suppress right-wing thought.
7. Promoting left-wing thought is accomplished by changing "established universes of meaning" and actively presenting "information slanted in the opposite direction," e.g. by political correctness and propaganda.
8. Suppressing right-wing thought is accomplished by withdrawing the freedom of speech, press, and assembly for anyone who disagrees with leftists on race, gender, religion, armament, public services, social security, or healthcare, e.g. deplatforming us entirely.
9. If necessary to withdraw these freedoms, leftists must operate at such scale that the actions cease to be non-violent and become revolutionary violence.
10. Leftists who use revolutionary violence are not to be condemned by any leftists.

I could, if you want, back up each and every bullet point above with paragraph-length quotes by Herbert Marcuse and other New Leftists; but it's painful to read. In brief, the doctrine holds that left-wing speech, assembly and action must be praised and promoted; while right-wing speech, assembly, and action must be condemned, suppressed, and punished. It's not hypocrisy when they do that. It's their stated manifesto, with an elaborate ideological edifice to justify it.

Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.

One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.

Quote from: amacris on July 05, 2021, 03:20:22 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 05, 2021, 02:44:30 PM
The mistake you make is thinking they have a conscience. Hypocrisy isn't a bug in their ideology, its a FEATURE. They are the Anointed so they don't have to abide by the same standards as the "Oppressors." Their proof that Gygax is a monster who needs to die is that someone else on Twitter said he was; no further proof needed.

I concur with Chris24601's thoughts on SJWs and would expand even further. They do not even acknowledge their hypocrisy. You have to read Herbert Marcuse's "Repressive Tolerance" to understand the full depth of their ideology. I've blogged about it extensively elsewhere with point by point elaborations; here, let's just summarize the doctrine of repressive tolerance in plain English:

1. Tolerance is only to be extended to truth.
2. Only leftism is objectively true, and anything other than leftism is not.
3. Therefore tolerance is only to be extended to leftism.
4. Anyone who disagrees with this has been indoctrinated by the right wing. To the extent that the majority of people disagree, that means the majority of people are indoctrinated.
5. Since most people are indoctrinated, leftists must break the indoctrination so that they can grasp the truth of leftism.
6. To break the indoctrination, leftists must promote left-wing thought and suppress right-wing thought.
7. Promoting left-wing thought is accomplished by changing "established universes of meaning" and actively presenting "information slanted in the opposite direction," e.g. by political correctness and propaganda.
8. Suppressing right-wing thought is accomplished by withdrawing the freedom of speech, press, and assembly for anyone who disagrees with leftists on race, gender, religion, armament, public services, social security, or healthcare, e.g. deplatforming us entirely.
9. If necessary to withdraw these freedoms, leftists must operate at such scale that the actions cease to be non-violent and become revolutionary violence.
10. Leftists who use revolutionary violence are not to be condemned by any leftists.

I could, if you want, back up each and every bullet point above with paragraph-length quotes by Herbert Marcuse and other New Leftists; but it's painful to read. In brief, the doctrine holds that left-wing speech, assembly and action must be praised and promoted; while right-wing speech, assembly, and action must be condemned, suppressed, and punished. It's not hypocrisy when they do that. It's their stated manifesto, with an elaborate ideological edifice to justify it.

Aye. This is why I get so annoyed by Nice Liberals who say the SJW Left "Mean Well, They Have Good Intentions, But...". They do not mean well, they do not have good intentions. Their intentions are highly malign.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:

1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.

2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.

3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.

4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.

5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.

1.  Complaining about a double standard is a complete waste of time with leftist ideologues who go as far as these dipshits do.  They have no principles and no standards.  Telling a cheater he is breaking the rules is not going to do a damn thing IMO. 

2.  Asking for proof is a complete waste of time, because these people believe in "their truth", and honestly are on a crusade/jihad.  All they care about is the means to an end, no principles, no standards.  Pushing rules on people who cheat like hell or simply do not care about rules is not going to help at all.

3. This could have some effect.  However, I think it is a drop in the ocean.  These corporations watch the enormous corporations that promote the woke.  The multinationals control the dialogue, know the average iq in the USA is dropping every year and know people will just bleat and do as they are told.  I agree with doing, I just would not expect results. 

4.That IMO can have a tiny effect.  If you were to record yourself taking the products out and burning them, and explaining you know its your money you are burning, could have some viral effect that triggers what you describe (more people doing likewise or sending their stuff back to them..which I am against this, they are just going to sell the used books and products again as used).  A viral video would get some attention though, be prepared for the twitter gang to make sure every one knows where you work and live if you do it. 

5. This one is the best for sure, and one that I think gets results.  As an aside, what products does Venger put out?  I got three books recently that Pundit wrote, and they are very good.

Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:46:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.

One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.

I think, as Douglas Murray is wont to say, that is the difference between a Gay and a Queer.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 05, 2021, 05:26:38 PM

Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:

1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.

2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.

3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.

4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.

5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.

1.  Complaining about a double standard is a complete waste of time with leftist ideologues who go as far as these dipshits do.  They have no principles and no standards.  Telling a cheater he is breaking the rules is not going to do a damn thing IMO. 

2.  Asking for proof is a complete waste of time, because these people believe in "their truth", and honestly are on a crusade/jihad.  All they care about is the means to an end, no principles, no standards.  Pushing rules on people who cheat like hell or simply do not care about rules is not going to help at all.

3. This could have some effect.  However, I think it is a drop in the ocean.  These corporations watch the enormous corporations that promote the woke.  The multinationals control the dialogue, know the average iq in the USA is dropping every year and know people will just bleat and do as they are told.  I agree with doing, I just would not expect results. 

4.That IMO can have a tiny effect.  If you were to record yourself taking the products out and burning them, and explaining you know its your money you are burning, could have some viral effect that triggers what you describe (more people doing likewise or sending their stuff back to them..which I am against this, they are just going to sell the used books and products again as used).  A viral video would get some attention though, be prepared for the twitter gang to make sure every one knows where you work and live if you do it. 

5. This one is the best for sure, and one that I think gets results.  As an aside, what products does Venger put out?  I got three books recently that Pundit wrote, and they are very good.

I know much of this is pissing into a fan. However, there are a few people who will read the debates, and see past the woke outrage, and recognize the truth.

While I do see your point about returning the books, I dont know if WotC would sell used copies. And of course one could deface the books rendering them unsellable when returning them. and dont just send them to the companies, send them to the President of Hasbro.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 07:04:27 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 05, 2021, 05:26:38 PM

Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:

1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.

2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.

3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.

4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.

5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.

1.  Complaining about a double standard is a complete waste of time with leftist ideologues who go as far as these dipshits do.  They have no principles and no standards.  Telling a cheater he is breaking the rules is not going to do a damn thing IMO. 

2.  Asking for proof is a complete waste of time, because these people believe in "their truth", and honestly are on a crusade/jihad.  All they care about is the means to an end, no principles, no standards.  Pushing rules on people who cheat like hell or simply do not care about rules is not going to help at all.

3. This could have some effect.  However, I think it is a drop in the ocean.  These corporations watch the enormous corporations that promote the woke.  The multinationals control the dialogue, know the average iq in the USA is dropping every year and know people will just bleat and do as they are told.  I agree with doing, I just would not expect results. 

4.That IMO can have a tiny effect.  If you were to record yourself taking the products out and burning them, and explaining you know its your money you are burning, could have some viral effect that triggers what you describe (more people doing likewise or sending their stuff back to them..which I am against this, they are just going to sell the used books and products again as used).  A viral video would get some attention though, be prepared for the twitter gang to make sure every one knows where you work and live if you do it. 

5. This one is the best for sure, and one that I think gets results.  As an aside, what products does Venger put out?  I got three books recently that Pundit wrote, and they are very good.

I know much of this is pissing into a fan. However, there are a few people who will read the debates, and see past the woke outrage, and recognize the truth.

While I do see your point about returning the books, I dont know if WotC would sell used copies. And of course one could deface the books rendering them unsellable when returning them. and dont just send them to the companies, send them to the President of Hasbro.

In real life, there are many who will listen. On the internet,  none.

Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:49:54 PM
Aye. This is why I get so annoyed by Nice Liberals who say the SJW Left "Mean Well, They Have Good Intentions, But...". They do not mean well, they do not have good intentions. Their intentions are highly malign.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.